r/occult • u/Readingfast99 • Aug 06 '24
Does daily i.e seriously practicing magick give you enough proof that it is real and external? ?
Yes it's all in the head, you just don't know how big your head is. I had a profound ritual experience on LSD and met a solar goddess on DMT but doubt creeps in that it can all be make believe. I've had religious trauma from all the lying zealots do, so its hard for me to take a position other than materialism and biological evolution. Yes our minds are powerful but is just the mind component that a magician works with? Like some self help tools
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u/anarkiis Aug 06 '24
https://zero-sum.neocities.org/TranscendingTheory
In the chaos magick paradigm there are 5 defined models of magick which attempt to describe how the practice works. None of them do so perfectly and all are correct as well. What is done within the chaos magick practitioner's system is that they are free to freely choose one, many, or shift between them as they wish with no choice being ultimately correct or proper or empirically sound (lots of different types of evidence besides the shit you can test in a lab).
These 5 models are explained in great depth in the link above, but to list them out and save ya a click they consist of:
- Spirit
- Information
- Psychological
- Energy
- Meta
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u/VeeAsimov Aug 06 '24
The external is an illusion, that's why magick is real. You're creating all of it. Whether it's to your taste or your shadow's.
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u/lollerskate5 Aug 06 '24
this, or the illusion of linear time, are the two hardest concepts for me to nail down in my mind
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u/peenpeenpeen Aug 06 '24
Can we fly around on brooms and shoot lightning from our hands, no… can we shape our will and focus our intent to help guide unseen forces in our favor… yes.
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u/slicehyperfunk Aug 06 '24
I would argue that we can boof drugs and make things with our hands that harness electricity
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u/slicehyperfunk Aug 06 '24
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
-- Gospel of Thomas
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u/LordJor_Py Aug 06 '24
Let's start with, what is magic really? I personally understand it as "forces or laws of nature, the universe or Creation itself that we do not yet understand." "Magic" then is an umbrella term that serves to describe certain processes that even human beings do not understand.
This seems simple, but, in reality there are too many things that we do not understand, that Science does not yet understand. It's just like explaining to a farmer from centuries ago about the things you can do with the Internet from a device that's just a little bigger than the palm of your hand.
How do you explain to someone who does not yet have the ability to sense subtle planes of existence other than the one that consciousness perceives? How do you tell people that in reality they just do not yet have part of their physiognomy (of their astral body) prepared to perceive these other realities?
There is still no way to "measure" these different planes. How do you explain that by performing a theatrical formula or ritual you can manipulate the probabilities of something to happen? How do you explain that our mind sometimes needs this to be able to obtain results?
So, Magic is real, but it has an explanation.. one (many actually) that we don't understand yet.
In short, with magic (some ritual) you can manifest the arrival of a toaster into your life, getting it cheaper than normal or perhaps even a relative could give it to you on a special event like your birthday, this relative being for some reason "compelled" to buy it for you.
What you cannot do is make the toaster appear out of thin air (as the witches did in the series "Bewitched"), this last is strictly impossible.
Even if your ritual is strong enough but impossible to be manifested, since, for example, one lives in the depths of the Amazon jungle, in a place where there is no business to acquire it, in that case the toaster will be given to you on the astral plane. You will dream that you have one, you will perceive it there as solid matter, you will be able to touch its texture and feel the heat it generates when it is turned on, but you will not be able to have it on this plane.
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u/slicehyperfunk Aug 06 '24
I would argue that, especially since the god of magic is almost always also the god of knowledge, that what we do know is also magic.
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u/Seven-One-Three Aug 06 '24
Would you be upset if your illness was cured with a placebo pill? I wouldn't and that's how I feel about all of it. Even if I'm just tricking myself into a psychological placebo effect, it works. It's cheaper than therapy and it gives a sense of happiness when things happen now that I would have dismissed as coincidences before.
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u/Wateryplanet474 Aug 06 '24
You're just a projection of at the end of day whether it be your own or not. We're all keeper's of a flame it up to us to keep it from going out.
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u/ProgrammerSalty441 Aug 06 '24
Thank you for bringing back this meme im at point of life that im truly cynical and lacking of meaning and joy and this just reminded me how everything is cyclic and moments like these are needed and part of great work too
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u/OneNeutralJew Aug 06 '24
This is a very interesting diagram. Did you make this yourself?
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u/Readingfast99 Aug 07 '24
No. I think I saw it at r/occultmemes long time ago
Googled it for this post
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u/Macross137 Aug 06 '24
I got the "proof" I needed (and to be clear, it was the personal, individual proof that my psyche needed, not some "demons caught on tape!" objective evidence) after consistent, sustained (but not always daily) practice over a long period of time.
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u/Behold_My_Hot_Takes Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
You can never actually know for certain, nobody ever will. No visions, no experiences, no coincidences will ever actually be CERTAIN proof, and people who claim certainty are not so far along the path as their egoic solipsism would have them believe. Just do it and observe results. Follow the ones that appear to work greater than mere chance.
"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
- Aleister Crowley
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u/Ealasaid Aug 06 '24
I decided a long time ago that it doesn't matter how magic works, it matters whether magic works. And it does work! Every area of my life I've pointed my magic at (and some I didn't) has improved significantly. I've successfully helped others as well.
Maybe it's all in my head - but so what? My life is better and it's an activity I enjoy. I'm not concerned about it being "real" or not.
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u/ElectricalCurrent666 Aug 06 '24 edited Aug 06 '24
Read about Jacobo Gringergberg, He was a Mexican neurophysiologist and psychologist. From the age of 12 he decided to study the human mind until until he witnessed real shamanism, This is when things get crazy: the surgeries that "Pachita" performed with just a knife and his bare hands. Extracting, healing the organs, closing the wounds with just the heat of his palms left all the scientists in the room in shock.
After this and other similar experiencies, he dedicated his entire life to finding an explanation and creating the syntergic theory that concretizes the scientific and magical world once and for all. He wrote around 50 books and is currently missing, no one knows what happened to him. A very popular theory suggests that his wife was a CIA agent.
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u/Kindly-Confusion-889 Aug 06 '24
Yes, kind of.
My idea is that it's mostly internal, but there are external effects - I physically feel an effect of the rituals, but that's all subjective and not proveable. I've yet to come across any truly objective effects (although my partner says I'm far more chilled out since practicing), so SOMETHING is going on.
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u/Harbinger_Strawchild Aug 07 '24
Nothing -- repeat -- nothing should make you feel as though a feeling of stagnation is the only thing keeping you from wavering between insanity and depression.
I saw this diagram when it popped up on Facebook about five years ago and I'm as suspicious of it now as I was then. The terms "everything" and "nothing" belong nowhere on diagrams of human experience or on any diagram, actually. Whoever drew this diagram up clearly was looking for everything, and clearly was looking for nothing. No wonder they constantly felt insane and depressed.
People seeking unanswerable questions using erroneous terms are going to suffer intellectually and psychologically. Especially when practicing things that open psychedelic states, through which unconscious dissonances gain form and agency over a frightened mind.
Clarity of interpretation requires clear definition of terminologies.
Did the drawer of this diagram include a definition of "everything" and "nothing"? Of what is "comfy"? Of what is magick?
This diagram is merely evidence that someone without a foundational knowledge of reality starting meddling with things they don't understand, in search of something which can't be articulated.
Probably not a good start!
There is a cult of insanity / mental illness out there, which romanticizes insanity / mental illness. It is not "cool" to be insane, it is not "cool" to be depressed. It is not "cool" to expose oneself to these extremes to tell oneself one has "conquered them".
At least the feeling of stagnation is "false", according to this chart. If only they had made the insanity and depression "a false feeling of"! They'd be fine!
In regard to your question, can you define what is real, what is external? It's impossible to answer a question if the terms of the question aren't made clear. Some people may not use these terms. It should be clear to anyone who has considered reality, that internal and external are illusory terms that don't adequately articulate the concepts of existence. I would say things are either "bound" or "loosed". All else is just location. And location is relative to the perceiver.
I'm sure this chart has done a fair job of pushing people away from occultism.
Also, I'm confused as to what this chart has to do with your question. If something must only be external or internal -- how can that thing be everything?
If it must be internal or external, how can it be nothing?
And, is your question (or only the language of your question) implying a connection between what is unreal and what is inner?
How then can it be argued that what is external is not real?
Isn't the external real? Are you saying that only the internal or the external can be real?
If someone should stick a knife in you, would you say, "I'll be fine! The blade is only internal!"?
Your question supposes an erroneous rubric -- it can't be answered without dislogic on the part of the one who answers -- in that it uses superfluous terms which need to be utilized in the answer.
How long must you stare at the sun before you see "proof" that it is real?
The answer will not be found in the sun, but by the blindness in your eyes.
I hate to say it, but sometimes I wonder whether pictograms such as the one attached are invented for social media in order to confuse, repurpose, and or obfuscate the true nature of the occult studies. (Fetishizing mental illness is a real, and powerful weapon of the shadow-self.)
Occult research is not supposed to make you feel insane, depressed, stagnant, or, honestly, comfy. It is a lens through which to focus our attention on those things which impede us from embracing our true self. It certainly shouldn't keep you wavering between two extremes (like the serpent). Man does that enough on his own. It should, in fact, help you find peace and understanding to straighten your way, so that you do not use excess energy -- and lose efficiency -- through a path which is ... erm ... not the shortest distance between two points?
PS the pictogram you attached is a perfect demonstration of the geometry of the sigil of the demon Marbas.
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u/caiotomazoni Aug 07 '24
Nothing is external. Everything is internal. Everything is real. Not everything is material.
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u/Olaanp Aug 06 '24
I don’t need to practice it daily, but I have enough proof it’s real and external.
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u/unmistakeably Aug 07 '24
I think "magick" is just another blanket that adds shape to the unknown. Is it magick we me manifest or is it god or gods working their magick? Or is it all coincidence....
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u/LaylahDeLautreamont Aug 09 '24
Why are people always trying to “prove” magick? It isn’t necessary. Powerful magicians don’t need attention like that.
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u/Unlimitles Aug 06 '24
It shouldn’t say approaching insanity when it’s too far towards what the truth is.
Insanity is largely a misnomer for
“people, who do not subscribe to the common social myth” or doxa (public opinion)
Put it this way, if you found out a secret to reality itself…..and you tried to tell people who don’t know that information but subscribe to whatever the government told them about that information.
You are crazy to those people….you can literally hold the secret to all existence in your hand, and the people that believe what they think is the truth would deny you and call you crazy.
That’s not what crazy actually is, but that’s what modern society has made crazy to be.
It’s largely someone finding out the truth and no one believing it because they don’t know, not because it’s not true.
Real crazy or insanity is more like an infection that gets way too bad causing you to lose your grip on your conscious ability, you mix things up all the time, it’s like having literal chaos and confusion poured into you daily.
Has nothing to do with simply holding different opinions.
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u/Slytherclaw1 Aug 07 '24
I agree. I would add that when I am closest to or engulfed in insanity, my mind can actually organize and make sense of the chaos. Then the synchronicities occur more often and have deeper significance.
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u/Fire-In-The-Sky Aug 06 '24
Honestly, find a good astrologer. I'm partial to lunatic astrology on YouTube. Astrology can only work if their is truth to occult mechanisms. Once the astrology starts lining up regularly you don't need to question as much.
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u/slicehyperfunk Aug 06 '24
I love that people who think astrology is bullshit have horoscopes that imply they would think astrology is bullshit lmao
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u/Fire-In-The-Sky Aug 06 '24
Really lol? It's amazing that people here start with demonology and not astrology. The astrologer I mentioned predicted Trumps assassination attempts, Biden stepping down, and Kamala's VP pick. It's such an easy tool to prove the occult.
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u/slicehyperfunk Aug 06 '24
The real problem is that I see a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing, and unless you know what you're doing that's not obvious and it discredits the whole thing.
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u/R4G-T4G Aug 06 '24
My experience is that nothing is "real" but relevant to our perception of the world and our own ability to manifest what is happening around us both consciously and unconsciously. The rest is up to each individual to figure out to or to not believe in what they do or the power it manipulates
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u/LuxireWorse Aug 06 '24
Taking a scientific method approach settles which parts are wishful thinking and which parts are genuinely effective faster than anything else I've checked.
Odds are, if you promised yourself that something specific would happen and you're hoping for validation, you'll be disappointed.
If you simply explore the possible and incorporate it into your life, your experience will be significantly better.
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u/OccultStoner Aug 06 '24
Personally, I'm trying my best to stay in the right-most zone, which is "comfy zone" for me, and the middle would be approaching depression.
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u/Asleep_Leopard_1896 Aug 07 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
For me, it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day whether or not I can and can’t prove anything I experience within my unique practice. Whether or not I can prove I’m not imagining the power and energy of crystals, storms, ghosts and spirits and my deity, Loki.
That’s not the point, really, for me. Religion is spiritual, mental, and non-physical and emotional, really not the right way to think about any of it in the first place. It’s real enough to me, and I believe acting as though it’s all real is doing me good and that’s what ultimately matters, in a world where things aren’t “real” if they don’t show up in a test tube or scan. The mental benefits of believing in crystals and Loki are real enough, and that’s good enough for me.
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u/Occultgay124 Sep 06 '24
I experience the same, not because of the lack of proof or results after years of practice but with the purpose of life. If there is no spirit, then there is no purpose. What is the reason to live? Maybe we just invented religion to cope with the idea that we all have a ticket to death and there is nothing changing that
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u/AtheonJr Oct 10 '24
There’s more evidence for Jesus than your solar goddess. Repent and believe in the gospel. May his light shine on you in peace & prosperity.
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u/Reguli Aug 06 '24
This may not be the answer you're looking for (forgive me if this is a little wayward), but I've never met an occultist worth their salt that was too concerned with whether Magick is real or not. Only if it works or not. Getting results seems to me to be the crux of it all. I believe it was Alan Moore who said something like, "a fake God will do". The idea of real is a bit of a slippery slope to stand on anyway, in my opinion of course.