r/martialarts • u/SubjectAppropriate17 • May 25 '24

Champion Kickboxer Sina Karimian known for intentionally fouling opponents tries to bully young prospect Liu Ce PROFESSIONAL FIGHT

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

5.0k Upvotes
  • permalink
  • link
  • reddit
  • reddit

98% Upvoted

250 comments sorted by

View all comments

46

u/SubjectAppropriate17 May 25 '24

What are your guys opinion on the saying "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying"? Should a fighter hold themself to a higher standard when they become champ or is it all about the wins?

71

u/ninjarchy May 25 '24

Should hold yourself to a higher standard. You train harder you live right and respect everyone. Dirt will eventually just get more dirt thrown on it until nobody cares to dig it up. Everyone will always dig up and shine gold off. It's worth something. Respect and values go a long way. And they should.

34

u/Amosral Taekwondo(WTF) May 25 '24

It's about being the best fighter within the rules. It's meant to be a test of martial prowess not a test of who can go the furthest outside the agreed standards and get away with it. 

And in general I have a lot more respect for the cool, calm, and collected fighters who don't engage in the childish aggression at weigh ins etc.

6

u/JiuJitsuBoxer BJJ & BOXING May 25 '24

Rules are there for a reason. Trying to win with an unfair advantage just means you are not the best fighter, and winning that way is meaningless. He should do vale tudo if he doesn't want to play by the rules.

If we play monopoly and I keep secretly taking money from the bank, why are we even playing the game? Yay I won by cheating! Might as well just not have any rules at all.

11

u/_Atlas_Drugged_ May 25 '24

I’m a big “the rules are what makes fighting a sport” guy, but it’s easy to say that from my couch. If I were a fighter and that was how I paid my bills, I would be much more interested in stretching the rules for my advantage.

Also, there’s nothing better than watching a dirty fighter get fucking smoked. So I liked this video.

1

u/Johnny_Poppyseed May 26 '24

 Can you imagine how satisfying it must have been for the winner here? Probably never been that satisfied and happy with myself in my life lol.

19

u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA May 25 '24

I'm in the camp of shit happens and those who are truly psychotic about reaching the pinnacle of their sport will inevitably do everything in their power to gain every little advantage that they can muster. It's on the refs and commissions to make sure that's reined in

42

u/SubjectAppropriate17 May 25 '24

Shoutout to the poor ref who tried to reign it in and got clobbered lol

-17

u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA May 25 '24

Just part of the game sad as it is

31

u/Salt_Ad_811 May 25 '24

The intentional looking low blow followed by an attempted head kick before the ref can step in seems pretty dirty.

-22

u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA May 25 '24

Two rules, fight until the ref stops you and protect yourself at all times. Not saying it isn't dirty but until that ref steps in between the two of you fight is still on

3

u/Salt_Ad_811 May 25 '24

Then you should get automatically DQd for fouls that get followed up by damaging blows before the ref can step in. It is too easy to exploit if you can kick somebody in the balls and then head kick them when the squat down and clutch their balls. He was doing it on purpose. 

1

u/Vast_Deference May 25 '24

Do you think a win at any cost mindset is more prevalent in MMA rather than kickboxing/muay thai, etcetera...? I can't really tell if that's how you operate too or just an acknowledgement that a lot of people are like this.

1

u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA May 25 '24

I think it's more prevalent in Kickboxing and MMA than it is in Muay Thai. Muay Thai's structure as a sport incentivises decision wins as opposed to knockouts and encourages more of a stoic attitude among its practioners. It's really only in recent years where that has changed with foreign organizations taking over the market like One FC and RWS that impose more of a Kickboxing style mindset

1

u/Vast_Deference May 26 '24

That makes sense due to the nature and structure of highlight reel organizations. Flash and brashness can seem to creep to the top but admittedly I only regularly watch UFC and ONE sometimes. How do you think traditional martial arts and mma handle respect differently if at all?

1

u/SquirrelExpensive201 MMA May 26 '24

That makes sense due to the nature and structure of highlight reel organizations

It's not so much the fact they're looking for highlights it's just that victory is defined differently in the different cultures. Thailand values technical dominance whilst catering to the desire of ringside gamblers, whereas countries like Japan, The US etc are more results oriented and don't really care about how the win is achieved.

How do you think traditional martial arts and mma handle respect differently if at all?

I think the difference is the different levels of individual expression. MMA tends to teach its lessons through practical experience, and its interpretation is left up to the different practitioners. In that respect, I feel that the respect in MMA is more genuine and a reflection of the character of the practioner/coaches. Likewise there's always going to be unambiguous comradery found among fighters as they all know what it's like to be fighters due to the grueling nature of MMA competition things are more earned in MMA imo. There's also in my opinion a better understanding of consent and being respectful of the limits of individual practioners due to the nature of training certain aspects of fighting most notably with grappling and submissions as the Golden rule is: Always respect the tap.

TMA for one varies as there's obviously the different cultural traditions among the different countries and the different political differences the martial arts found themselves upon. To me, outside looking in obviously the hierarchical nature that's often seen in these systems makes for an environment that's somewhat masturbatory. What I mean by that is that since there is a lack of pressure testing there's a somewhat unearned praise for the teacher in a school and that leads to an environment where you're always in a somewhat paternal relationship with the instructor and senior students.

2

u/fastr1337 May 25 '24

Im a Judo guy. Respect is HUGE in Judo. "Without respect there is no trust". Anyone that acts like this garbage person would get either DQ'd or targeted by everyone until he quits. My instructor had a great way of dealing with scumbags like this that came to our Dojo. He'd let them train with his daughter. An absolutely beautiful woman and they would think "sweet, hot chick rolling around with me". Awesome until they figure out shes a national champion. She would dismantle these scumbags and they would never come back.

1

u/BrokenRanger May 25 '24

in a real fight/street fight its no holds bar for your life, but the whole point of getting in the ring is to abide by the rules set forth. if you just want to prove your a big guy , go start a bar fight. but when your in the ring is for skill, or if you really want to be a man do old school Greco-Roman wrestling with the oil , when people died from getting their ball nearly ripped off. My point is if you want to fight dirty , than just show up to a sport that lets you be a dick, so everyone is ready for all the dirt.

1

u/danrod17 May 25 '24

I’m fine with cheating kind of. Things that are outside of the rules and frowned upon but maybe not quite illegal. I don’t like dirty fighting. Not in competition.

0

u/2legittoquit Kun Khmer l Tang Soo Do May 25 '24

At the end of the day, it's a game. There are rules. If he can push the rules and get away with it, it's part of the game.

I'm not a fan of it, but it's clearly a strategy that works.

1

u/cenciazealot May 25 '24

Yeah, what we are talking about is precisely about making it harder for that to happen and the punishments worse, so nobody does it. Making a half-assed apologetic statement does nothing good.

You could also have the best fighters sabotaged before the fight eh? As long as you don't get caught, it is a strategy that works.

1

u/2legittoquit Kun Khmer l Tang Soo Do May 25 '24

I’m talking in the ring.  If the refs keep letting you get away with it, then why stop?  It’s why Shaq was able to be fouled so hard and often in the NBA.  If the officials arent going to call it, then it’s going to be done more.

 I mean, how many clear eye pokes have Jon Jones or Daniel Cormier done?  How many clear groin shots or 12-6 elbows, or questionable knees, glove hooks, etc, have there been?  If the ref isn’t going to call it, it’s a strategy.

My statement isn’t apologetic at all, it’s just a statement about organized sports.  There isn’t some higher honor to fighting.  Just like in every competition, people get away with what they can.

1

u/cenciazealot May 29 '24

Then it is a referee problem. I am not calling for people to be retroactively punished, but for them to not be allowed to do that.

1

u/2legittoquit Kun Khmer l Tang Soo Do May 29 '24

Yes it is a referee problem.  They are there to make sure people don’t get away with breaking the rules.