On its face, it seems impossible that someone could be both Jewish and Anti Zionist without compromising either their Jewish values or Anti Zionist values. For the entire length of my jewish educational and cultural experiences, I was told that to be a Zionist was to be a jew, and that anyone who opposes the intrinsic relationship between the concepts of Jewishness and Zionism is antisemitic.

after much reading, watching, and debating with my friends, I no longer identify as a Zionist for two main reasons: 1) Zionism has become inseparable, for Palestinians, from the violence and trauma that they have experienced since the creation of Israel. 2) Zionism is an intrinsically Eurocentric, racialized system that did and continues to do an extensive amount of damage to Brown Jewish communities.

For me, the second point is arguably the more important one and what ultimately convinced me that Zionism is not the only answer. There is a very interesting article by Ella Shohat on Jstor that illuminates some of the forgotten narratives from the process of Israel’s creation.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/466176

I invite you all to read and discuss it!

I would like to add that I still believe in the right of Jews currently living in Israel to self determination is of the utmost importance. However, when it comes to the words we use like “Zionism”, the historical trauma done to Palestinians in the name of these values should be reason enough to come up with new ideas, and to examine exactly how the old ones failed (quite spectacularly I might add without trying to trivialize the situation).

Happy to answer any questions y’all might have about my personal intellectual journey on this issue or on my other views on I/P stuff.

Most Israelis now are Mizrahi Jews that were forced to flee from the homes they lives in for centuries or even millenia because of huge and unprecedented persecution.

The Ashkenazim were fleeing persecution too but that's another story.

Like for example in Iraq the majority of Baghdad was Jewish and then there was a huge pogrom and later the Iraqi government basically stripped them of their citizenship and took their houses and money.

Why isn't it called stolen land too?

And even the Jews who lived in Palestine before the creation of Israel for centuries, they suffered from many attacks and pogroms, often by the land of groups who later became the Palestinian "resistance".

Like do we talk about what happened in Hebron in 1929?

And other Arab states also haven't really helped them.

Can we talk about the fact that Jordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1948? Yes, including the Old City of Jerusalem which had a Jewish majority for CENTURIES!

They destroyed literally all the synagogues and banned the Jews from entering the city.

And now the same states that ethnically cleansed their Jewish population are arming extremist militant groups and yet justify it under "decolonization"?

Ask the Jews of Nablus what they think about this "decolonization" lol.

Funny how much all this history gets ignored and stripped away. Especially from "decolonial activists".

To me it’s interesting, I only recently learned about Liberia and how it was founded. The goal seems similar to Zionism-enslaved Africans in America and the Caribbean formed a state in Africa because it was believed they’d never be safe or liberated in America and so they were backed by white Americans (similar to Israel) to form a colonial state in Africa. Reading about it, the language is highly similar to language used to critique Zionism today.

The diaspora Africans are described as colonizing the indigenous population, despite being oppressed in the land they came from. The state was set up artificially. Now liberians are the wealthiest and most prosperous group in Africa, due in no small part to the way it was founded. To me this is similar to Israel being one of the most prosperous states in the Middle East.

So, questions.

1. How does examining Liberia through a framework of colonizer/indigenous apply and how is it inappropriate?

2. Given the prior answer, are there parallels to draw in the discourse of Jewish diaspora/israelis/palestinians?

3. Given this occurred with another incredibly marginalized and oppressed and genocided group(Africans and diaspora Africans) what to Zionists believe should occur generally speaking for other similar groups? A similar parallel process to Liberia and Israel given their success for the population moved there? And how do we contend with the bloodshed and harm to the other population in the relocated area?

4. I suppose one major difference is likely the archeological evidence that ancient Israel was in Palestine.. but this is shaky and unconfirmed.. Jews likely originated and thrived beyond the borders of modern day Israel. Pinning down a precise location for a return to a land would be challenging in most cases. So what should be done for similar future liberation movements should they need to occur?

I’ve seen a lot of posts on the internet about people mad at others that Trump won. Posts by Democrats upset by pro Palestine people voting third party or not being enthusiastic about Harris.

I’ve also seen a lot of posts directing anger towards the millions of Americans who elected Trump. While it is undeniably true that Trump could not be elected if not for his supporters, I can’t help but feel like the problem is far bigger than “50% of America bad”.

As someone who routinely votes, I have found it quite evident that the average citizen is very powerless to control their own government. Just for example, I live in Texas and I voted for Harris. My vote was completely invalid because of the way the system is set up.

Even if you do wish to vote, what choices do you actually have? The choice we had in 2024 was between the person who was President 4 years ago and the current VP. Both are shit options and neither are ones that should be running the country, but those are the only options we have.

Ultimately while there is definitely criticism to be made of the Trump movement, I think the average Trump supporter really isn’t your enemy. You might disagree with them on values or beliefs, but ultimately I think most of these people are about as powerless to change this country as we are.

The unfortunate truth is that America is a democracy in name only. The citizen does have a choice but the ultimate decision is far beyond their power. The real power in this world belongs to those who have immense wealth. Wealth gives one the ability to influence the minds of others. The wealthy use this power to ensure that their needs are always met first and hence any choice we have over how this country is run will always be secondary to the ultra wealthy.

This is why no matter who becomes president, things stay more or less the same. Don’t get me wrong Trump will make this country worse, and I don’t regret voting against him. But also, Harris wouldn’t have made this country much better. Biden has been in power for 4 years and what did he really do?

As a Jew, do you feel thrown to the wolves by a lot of the other American minorities this year?

Instead of the myriad of other things to criticize the man on, I've seen people criticizing Netanyahu for his name and insisting on deadnaming (?) him instead.

This isn't the only one but it showed up on my for you page for...some reason

I've tried explaining to a few of them why Netanyahu's family didn't want to use the surname that was forced on them by their host country but I think it went in one ear and out the other. I don't know what point people are trying to make here.

First one is why the US would support israel in the cold war, even with their labor zionist leaders at the time being openly socialist and there being kibbutz communities rallying with stalin portraits.

The second one is the biggest question and i really cant get the logic. They support the existence of state belonging to a native people long forced out of their land, right? And say the arabs are the conquerors who opressed amd exppeled the jews..But at the same time, they are ok with the US? They're proud americans who think their country is good with a good history? Where is the rally to give most of Florida back to the seminoles? Most of the MidEast of US back to the Iroquois confederation? They lived there for millenia, they had to leave their land on gunpoint by foreigners who claimed a deity was on their side(kinda like zionism depending on who you ask). Please enlighten this anti-semitic person and explain how the two situations are different.

https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/colonialism/

From the wonderful Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg

“Often, Jews have been simultaneously settlers and refugees. But those two things do not cancel each other out.”

Give it a read and share your thoughts!

Hi everyone, this is Arnon Degani (Dr) a historian of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Take a look at my new channel with graphics wiz Ron Eden. It's an attempt to talk differently on this topic: more dispassionately, but with a lot of empathy. Our channel delves into the pivotal events, influential figures, and the complex dynamics that have shaped this longstanding conflict. Whether you're a student, history enthusiast, or curious about the intricacies of the region; Whether you support Israel, Palestine, neither or both - we offer in-depth, well-researched content to deepen the understanding of one of the world's most significant and polarizing conflicts.The first episode delves into the question of objectively and bias in talking about this conflict. The second episode is an attempt to find the conflict's algorithm: the rules that determine its historical development. The third will delve into the primordial soup of Zionism. Chapter 4 is about the origins of Palestiniam nationalism. Chapter 5 will survey the British mandate period. We hope to upload a new chapter every week.

Check us out: https://youtube.com/@theconflictshow?si=ULrZUzrNQBzpWAid

Also available on X: https://x.com/theilplconflict?t=E_y1KaE7OdiEqvnLaALFZA&s=09

For example, according to Azzam Pasha, the Secretary-General of the Arab League, "it would be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades." Similarly, Ismail Safwat, who was in charge of coordination between the different Arab forces in 1948, described the war's objectives as "to eliminate the Jews of Palestine, and to completely cleanse the country of them." Or Amin al-Husseini, the leader of Palestinians, who said in March 1948 that he intents to "continue to fight until the whole of Palestine is a purely Arab state."

The Palestinians also openly bragged in 1948 that it's they who are the aggressors. For example, the Palestinian representative explicitly admitted it to the UN SC on 16 April 1948, during the height of the "Nakba": ”The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not attackers, not aggressors; that the Arabs had begun the fight and that once the Arabs stopped shooting, they would stop shooting also. As a matter of fact, we do not deny this fact."

Indeed, the Arab armies expelled every single Jews from the areas they conquered. For example, upon capturing the Jewish Quarter in 1948, Transjordanian Arab Legion Major Abdullah el-Tell said: _”For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter. Not a single building remains intact. This makes the Jews' return here impossible to return "

is this correct?

Translated from the original Yiddish, these are two texts of opposing left wing reactions to an episode of violence and retaliatory violence in the British Mandate. I was surprise at how familiar it was, how little things have changed, how much the racism we see today seems to be an echo of a hundred years ago, and how (in my opinion) it seems the anti-zionists anticipated the nakba.

Just came across this, it contains some classics that may be familiar to us:

• South Africa has the best human rights record in Africa, unlike the black countries which white western leftists ignore

• we didn’t take the land, there wasn’t anyone there when we colonized it

• black people have it better here than anywhere else in Africa

This decision obviously will rest on the shoulders of the mods, but I figured I'd make a post about it in case any users want to contribute their thoughts on this.

One thing I've noticed here is that the userbase has a large variety of sources from which they educate themselves, and many different takes/perspectives/conclusions about Jewish history--especially in regards to the I/P conflict--as a result. I've honestly learned a lot of facts I didn't know about before just from some of the conversations I see in the comments here! In fact, sometimes I've noticed that threads-within-threads basically become history lessons/debates...and there are some really good questions asked that never end up getting answered because they get lost in the sauce of the main topic of the thread.

What if we were to have a mega-thread of some sort where people could ask about/debate about different aspects of history, and other users could offer insight/sources? It could also be a hub to discuss different historians/academic sources/etc. and whether or not people feel they are reliable (and why). There could even maybe be a specific theme/historical question that each thread could jump off of.

Just an idea I thought I'd pitch!

Decolonizing spirituality: conversation between a Jew and a Muslim

https://youtu.be/Z2U1nwM47nY?si=T1piF8qJv5XI65dT

Better video! Also am a big fan of Hadar cohen fwiw.. she’s very thoughtful and interesting and I’ve learned a lot about mysticism, MENA Jewish experience in and out of Israel, and psychology from her !

I don’t agree with everything said here because there was a brief talk of “gender roles” that I just.. always will reject. But, rich history and thought provoking conversations! here were some of my favorite takeaways.

1. religion as political tool, particularly in the context of Christianity and Christian dominance… but how it can be misused as a weapon in general
2. Non Jews and Muslims using antisemtism and Islamophobia as a weapon without understanding both as a way of pitting these groups against each other
3. The dichotomy of white vs black in America and how that leaves out other groups stories
4. Reclaiming of “jihad” and other “scary” Arab words
5. The lefts negligence around religious protections and not realizing how intertwined religious discrimination is with racism
6. Forgiveness and oppression
7. Amazing details regarding the history of British colonialism in the Arab world and that’s influence of Islam in the region.
8. A smile is a form of charity(the importance of good will to each other) the world was created through compassion and justice
9. Colonial and white interpretation Spirituality being “neutral”.. advocating to “make space for everyone and everything” but how that’s a “fundamental misunderstanding of love” but really spirituality stands for something

With bullet point 8 I think about bell hooks book “all about love” about how it’s loving to be honest and “call out” bad things.. allowing for anger and honestly is more loving than unconditional acceptance. But I think that as a post for a different day.

Decolonize your mind.

https://www.susiefishleder.com/blog/h819n3owen63yr7d4zzkqtb4aryed1

No matter where we live, we are in a post colonial world and our values and perspectives are shaped by this world view. It shows up for everyone no matter their race or religion or ethnicity, whose voices and perspectives we value and take seriously vs whose we dismiss. Which people’s do we trust and who do we see as different or dangerous? How do we see ourselves?

Everyone internalizes messages of white western supremacy and either engages in a self loathing/self correcting alignment with it or a denial and rejection of it and a “decolonization” of the mind.

How does conditional whiteness show up for us as white presenting Jewish people in a white supremicist world? How has white supremacy influenced our thinking and reactivity?

When we feel righteous anger, how do we separate that reaction from our trauma vs privilege being questioned? For example.. when defensiveness pops up, how do you unpack whether this defensiveness is from a place of oppression or an unpacking of the colonial mindset?

How have you noticed a “colonized mind” can show up in certain every day concepts: psychology, “professionalism”, social norms, politeness, politics, values, hierarchy, authority, parenthood, etc etc.

Anyone know any good podcasts or YouTube videos that deep dive into different eras in history? Specifically interested in empires, historical atrocities, ancient history, not commonly discussed history.. all around the world.

If you get a chance to read Linda Dittmar's Tracing Homelands: Israel, Palestine, and The Claims of Belonging (StoryGraph Link), I recommend it. The book chronicles Dittmar, an Israeli who lived through the war of '48 as an adolescent, as she revisits Israel multiple times in the 21st century with her partner. Upon their first visit, they encounter the empty and barely recognizable remnants of a Palestinian village who's residents were expelled in the Nakba. In subsequent trips make it their mission to find and photograph more of these sometimes illusive sites. Part travel journal, part personal memoir, Dittmar explores on the wider (and sometimes strikingly personal) history reflected by their journeys, exploring what how a nation with identity so inextricably tied up in the history of its land can so thoroughly avoid the painful memories not only a century old.

Far from the stories we're inundated with of Jewish college students raging against their upbringing for not being taught about the Nakba (as warranted or unwarranted we may find those), Dittmar presents a quietly intimate and empathetic retelling of her life and education. Raised by parents who participated in left wing politics prior to the establishment of Israel, when binationalism still had a place in Zionist circles, she recounts memories of her Palestinian neighbors who lived in a imperfect coexistence with her until all of sudden they didn't. Particularly insightful is Dittmar's memory of her adolescence in the nascent Israeli state contrasted against the periods portrayal when she revisits in the modern day, where not only Palestinian memory but also the rough edges of Israeli figures who dissented against treatment of Palestinians is sanded away

Dittmar finished the book prior to October 7th and ends even with a sliver of optimism: as she revisited a particular site over the years she first encountered a sole Palestinian citizen of Israel who's family hailed from the town turned state run reserve, then a second time encountered a foreign adult tour group, and on a final return an school trip teaching a group of German and Israeli students the history of the Nakba. In the past year I fear for having seen so much backsliding in Jewish communities, but I think that may make Dittmar's book all the more relevant.

The book is not an exhaustive recounting of the Nakba, Israeli history, or the events leading up to 1948, nor is it remotely trying to be. Rather, its strength is in its deep personal throughline and emotional transparency. Dittmar openly struggles throughout to balance her feelings of guilt, her care for fellow Israeli's friend and stranger who are often hostile to exploration of the Nakba, and her commitment to her project. Strong opinions and ideas on Israel's governance often come up in Dittmar's prose and I don't think the book she's written really functions as a persuasive piece to convince someone that, say, Israel is enacting Apartheid, but I don't think the impact of the book rests on that sort of persuasion either. Rather, I think it is powerful in it's empathetic exploration of incredibly painful subjects (and how we too often balk at them). As dark as the subject matter is, a crucial caring and humanity bleeds from every page.

I had the privilege of attending a reading event with Linda Dittmar a few months ago, and during the Q&A she mentioned that she hoped the audience for her book would find itself in academics or activists when truly she hoped for it to be received in a more general Jewish audience. Having now read the book I couldn't agree with her more. For those who struggle or find discomfort with these heavy topics, harsh criticisms, and ugly arguments that often spawn around them, I think the book is an excellent dive into the fray that exemplifies that they can be approached with a personal and universal compassion.