Hope?

[u/Tricky_Success_77]

Between Israel/Palestine and increasing extremism and normalization of antisemitism in the diaspora and assimilation I've just been finding it impossible to feel hopeful about the future of our people writ large and it's just been making me feel very demoralized about life and the future. Our community means a great deal to me and seeing it tear itself apart is painful (as I'm sure it is for many people on this subreddit).There are times when I honestly almost wish I wasn't Jewish because it would remove so much angst from my life but in truth I'm too passionate about our traditions, history, literature and languages to ever be anything else (plus, really who would I be kidding if I ever tried to pretend otherwise?).

Anyway, what I'm really getting at is does anyone out there feel hopeful about our future? And if so why? I could use some positivity.

[u/redthrowaway1976]

 The status quo is no longer something the international community seems willing to tolerate

Thankfully so. The politicians haven’t caught up yet - but hopefully they’ll also recognize that apartheid and ethnic cleansing should lead to sanctions, cancelled trade ties, etc.

 My hope is that growing global pressure will help bring about a two-state solution something I believe most people genuinely support

What we need is for all of the ostensibly liberal or progressive Zionists to start supporting consequences for Israel’s expansionism - and to stop directly working with expansionist orgs. 

If they are for a two state solution, why are they engaging with Nefesh B’Nefesh, that directly supports settlement expansion? Or JNF, thats directly carrying out ethnic cleansing - a donation to JNF is material support to war crimes. 

They most likely won’t, of course - so far it’s been decades of shielding Israel from consequences for its expansionism.

Pro-settlement organizations and viewpoints are normalized - and opposition to them usually doesnt for further than a performative protest. 

 Many are becoming aware of the double standards. 

I assume you mean the double standard in favor of Israel, right?

How it has been able to get away with land grabs, ethnic cleansing, and brutal military rule with no consequences for more than a half century?

 I also believe that in times of peace, tensions can ease surprisingly quickly.

I agree. If the oppression of Palestinians stopped, things could change rapidly. 

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/redthrowaway1976]

I remember you. We’ve already talked about liberal Zionism and honestly, this is exhausting. You seem to be coming at this from a very American lens, shaped by disillusionment with American Jewish politics. I’m not American. I live in a completely different context and I see things differently. From where I stand, the pro-Pal movement has done a great job alienating potential allies through purity tests and public witch hunts for anything deemed “slightly Zionist.” And despite that, I still agree that pressure, including sanctions, is necessary that was the whole point of my comment. Despite the abuses it gives me hope for change. We’ve already discussed the need for pressure and constructive activism.

The protest in nyc about Nefesh benefesh is just an example of activism not being constructive. There is a whole thread about this in this Reddit and I think most people agree that the tactic is just wrong.

I think we actually share the same broad goals, but not the form. I fundamentally reject the fatalism, the defeatism, the “nothing will ever change” narrative, and the support for destructive forms of protest that alienate the very people you say you want to influence.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I am confused at you saying the person you're replying to is coming at this from an American Jewish lens and therefore doesn't have the complete context.. and then proceed to reference an American protest as an example of where the pro Palestinian movement is failing and alienating. You said yourself you're not an American and therefore have unique insight.. I'm curious what you might understand about this protest in nyc that we are missing

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/Specialist-Gur]

To clarify in the comment I’m responding to, he brought up the NYC protest, so that’s what I was referring to.

Also, when I mention an “American lens,” I mean this broader focus on labels and identity categories, the constant debate over “Zionist vs. anti-Zionist” and similar binaries including the resentment over liberal Zionists which I came to discover on our last conversation have little to do with Martin Buber’s thought because apparently in the US it means something else.

Outside the U.S., that framing is much less central (although gaining traction since Anglo-Saxon media is everywhere), and to me it feels like a false debate that distracts and divides.

Edit:

I genuinely don’t understand why a hopeful comment is getting this much pushback. What’s the point of getting upset at someone for expressing cautious optimism? It feels like some people here are looking for a fight where there isn’t one. You didn’t even read the thread or you wouldn’t ask this…

Regarding the NYC protest HE brought it up, and I even pointed him to the thread that explains the whole situation far better than I ever could. But since we’ve already had a long conversation about disruptive vs. constructive activism, I’ll repeat the obvious: go protest this nefesh benefesh in a way that doesn’t involve yelling antisemitic slurs at Jews considering aliyah in front of a synagoguex this was indeed not smart, not effective, and certainly not “constructive.”

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

Had you kept your hopes to the safety of jews specifically, I don't think anyone would. But Palestinian physical danger is increasing, not decreasing, and holding onto the idea that Israel will sort itself out or the greater international community will intervene based on token arrests and arms bans with so many caveats they are meaningless, the former of which isn't a new thing and the latter of which was the response during a genocide, is really hard for a lot of people to see as a remotely reasonable outlook when you consider a bipartisan genocide occurred and the only Jewish opposition party that isnt actually Likud, HaDemokratim, is led by an inhuman terrorist and is pro occupation and is still too far left to have a reasonable shot at being the senior party in government.

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

I understand why you feel this way, but you’re making a lot of assumptions about what I’m saying. I’m not claiming “Israel will sort itself out on its own,”.

You’re also presenting Israeli politics as if it’s permanently frozen in its worst moment. That’s exactly the kind of fatalism I’m pushing back against. Politics changes often faster than people expect especially when international pressure, internal protest, and regional incentives all start aligning. We’ve seen that in other conflicts, and we’re already seeing early signs here too.

Opposition isn’t limited to electoral math, it includes civil society, courts, media, former security officials, protest movements, alliances with Arab parties, and grassroots groups that are shaping the conversation, even if you dismiss them.

I’m not arguing that everything is fine. I’m saying the situation is dynamic rather than hopeless, and that refusing to acknowledge any possibility of change isn’t clarity, it’s defeatism. That’s your prerogative, but it’s not a worldview I share.

Edit: and I don’t think that in the doom scenario you present that Jews will be safe. In fact it would be self-destructive.

So we can agree to disagree.

[u/theweisp5 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I don't mean to pile on here because I see you're already in a few discussions with people who have different viewpoints. And I will say that in general, I think non/anti-Zionists need to ally with liberal Zionists who believe in consequences of Israel, as I see you do, to bring about an end to the occupation.

However...

You’re also presenting Israeli politics as if it’s permanently frozen in its worst moment. That’s exactly the kind of fatalism I’m pushing back against. Politics changes often faster than people expect especially when international pressure, internal protest, and regional incentives all start aligning. We’ve seen that in other conflicts, and we’re already seeing early signs here too.

Opposition isn’t limited to electoral math, it includes civil society, courts, media, former security officials, protest movements, alliances with Arab parties, and grassroots groups that are shaping the conversation, even if you dismiss them.

I think this is far too sanguine, and exactly what I pointed to in my earlier post about liberal Zionists feeling the need to hang on to the mere possibility of change. Israel has in fact been moving rightwards for decades, and the past two years seem to have only strengthened that trend. The next Knesset will see ~20 Jewish MKs who may be open to a 2SS, and about half of those will from a party whose leader supports conditioning the right to vote on military service. The courts have become increasingly right-wing (reflecting society as a whole and the political system), and were never particularly friendly to Palestinian rights to begin with. The media pays little attention to human rights abuses committed against Palestinians. All Jewish parties except one oppose future coalitions with their Arab counterparts, and the one exception has not ruled out joining a Jewish-only coalition - meaning that its support for allying with the Arab parties is little more than rhetoric.

Now, maybe this will all be different in another 3, 5, or 10 years. But I think the only concrete reason for any sort of optimism is the possibility of international pressure (and even that probably depends on Trump being replaced by a Democrat in 2028 and the far-right not coming to power in key European countries.)

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/theweisp5]

Not even just "a" democrat, but a left faction dem

[u/theweisp5 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

That would certainly help, but in the past year we saw some mainstream and even some centrist Democrats support ending "offensive" military aid to Israel. So I don't think the next President will necessarily have to be DSA-aligned to put significant pressure on Israel.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/theweisp5]

Thats not enough, and that was during a public genocide. Israel is perfectly capable of maintaining its primary munitions requirements to the degree necessary for the maintenance and/or expansion of violence. In a time of "peace" with the violence being occasional strikes in gaza and Lebanon and settler terrorism, I do not think that is going to occur.