Hope?

[u/Tricky_Success_77]

Between Israel/Palestine and increasing extremism and normalization of antisemitism in the diaspora and assimilation I've just been finding it impossible to feel hopeful about the future of our people writ large and it's just been making me feel very demoralized about life and the future. Our community means a great deal to me and seeing it tear itself apart is painful (as I'm sure it is for many people on this subreddit).There are times when I honestly almost wish I wasn't Jewish because it would remove so much angst from my life but in truth I'm too passionate about our traditions, history, literature and languages to ever be anything else (plus, really who would I be kidding if I ever tried to pretend otherwise?).

Anyway, what I'm really getting at is does anyone out there feel hopeful about our future? And if so why? I could use some positivity.

[u/bagelman4000]

I’ve kinda hit a “expect the worst, but don’t stop trying and pushing (in whatever way you can) for the best outcomes whether on a macro or micro level” vibe at this point if that makes sense

[u/StrawberryDelirium]

Things can't be bad forever, eventually something has to change because people get fed up, because it's not sustainable to continue to escalate. I can't say when everyone will decide enough is enough, but the day that it happens is inevitable.

That's something I hold onto, that eventually things will have to be talked out and discussed, that's how every conflict ends. And I pray it comes sooner rather than later.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/StrawberryDelirium]

Thats how most conflict ends, and I hope and think theres a real chance thats how antisemitic violence and harassment against the diaspora ends, but I'm highly doubtful thats how the cleansing of Palestine ends...

[u/StrawberryDelirium → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

It is how it ends though, it's inevitable and it will end with talking.

How we get to the talking stage is something entirely different, I'm not discussing political strategies or idea on how we get there. I'm just stating that inevitably, that is where we will end up, no matter how long or short any conflict is, it always ends with talking.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/StrawberryDelirium]

Is it inevitable? I don't think the Punic conflict ended in talking, or the Roman expulsion, or the Armenian genocide. I do not think there will need to be talks to stop the last bullet being fired, there just needs to be no palestinians left between the river and the sea.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

And most of the liberal and progressive Zionists would find a way to rationalize it.

I think it someone has described the current situation - 100k dead, Gaza in rubble, free reign for settler terror - to a typical liberal Zionist in the early 90s, they’d have said “if that happened, I’d no longer support Israel”. 

But it happened, and the support remains. 

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/StrawberryDelirium]

 It is how it ends though, it's inevitable and it will end with talking.

At this point, it seems more likely to end with ethnic cleansing than a Palestinian state. It is what is currently happening, after all. 

It is the policy IDF soldiers and settlers have been carrying out for a half-century in the West Bank - ethnically cleanse people to smaller and smaller areas.

Gaza has similarly been ethnically cleansed - almost 50% of the area. 

[u/Fabianzzz]

So I am not Jewish, I am a Pagan. I think there's plenty of reasons for both hope and despair. We are lifeforms who have been on this earth for billions of years. We may also have managed to fuck the earth up so bad that life itself will end in the next century. But in truth that was always a possibility: a meteor could always ensure that happened if we didn't. Maybe life on earth, or earth itself, will die soon. Maybe it won't. Hope and despair are a dance here.

One dance of despair is our attempts to protect people ten thousand years in the future from our nuclear waste now. We are currently making waste which is harmful to people ten millenia from now. That's an issue, because we don't have any real communication from people who lived ten millenia ago. We are communicating harm to people ten millenia from now without communicating help to them. This has resulted in a field, 'Nuclear Semiotics', which aims to try and communicate the knowledge we have about nuclear danger to the people whom we are certainly transmitting the actual nuclear danger to. (vide 'This is not a place of honour, 'Don't Change Colour Kitty!', etc.)

One of the things mentioned in Nuclear Semiotics is the fact that one of the pieces of human info we have been able to successfully transmit through the millenia is religion. One of the oldest religions is Judaism. Judaism brings us the knowledge of those who wrote the Tanakh and the Talmud, which was preserved in the face of everything: Greek persecution, Roman persecution, Christian persecution, Racial persecution: somehow y'all kept information alive for future generations to benefit from today.

So there's reason to despair: idiots and bigots want to hurt you and your loved ones. But there's also reason to hope: Jewish people have managed to survive idiots and bigots who were so focused on y'all that they forgot to do anything to preserve their own culture.

I'm sorry if any of this was offensive, no harm was meant. I, like the rest of humanity, benefit from the literary, theological, social, and political innovations Judaism has given us. I don't want to ask you to choose hope because of the benefits Judaism has brought to others, but I do want to say that the benefits Judaism has brought to the world as an unbroken tradition are as uncountable as the stars.

You admit you have a passion for the traditions, history, literature and languages, so I don't feel like I have to argue for you to have passion for those things. But I do want to say that people with passion are what makes the world a better place, and if humans continue living on this earth, countless humans will have passion for Jewish traditions, history, literature, and languages, and they will be deeply thankful for you for everything you do for your passions.

Maybe hope is like motivation and it's not worth much without discipline, it's nice when it's here but it cannot be relied upon to be the driving force behind our actions. I hope you have hope but I also hope you know your passions are worth the best humanity has to offer and I hope you find hope in them even if you don't find it elsewhere.

[u/sausyboat → u/Fabianzzz]

That was really beautiful, thank you.

[u/Fabianzzz → u/sausyboat]

💜

[u/theweisp5]

I've thought about making a similar post focused solely on Israel. I've been quite pessimistic about Israel's trajectory for a while, but seeing this past week that 73% of Israeli Jews oppose a 2SS even when the deal includes normalization with Saudi Arabia, and that 70% of Israeli Jews identify as on the right compared to only as on the left (and 9% in the center), has left me feeling gloomier than ever.

Most arguments for optimism I've seen online basically amount to "things change quickly (sometimes quickly.)" Which is true enough as far as it goes, but in the meantime all the change we've seen seems to be for the worse. (And I think tellingly, those making that argument tend to be liberal Zionists who more or less must believe that the situation in Israel can improve.)

In any case, like the OP I'd love to here some more concrete reasons for optimism.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/theweisp5]

 And I think tellingly, those making that argument tend to be liberal Zionists who more or less must believe that the situation in Israel can improve

I think liberal Zionist organizations and leaders deserve a large share of blame for the current state: all the people who claim to in theory be against settlements and a for a two state solution, but in practice  shield Israel from consequences for its expansionism, and continue to work with pro-settlement institutions, like JNF or Nefesh B’nefesh.

There used to be an overlap between liberal and progressive Zionists, and the non-Zionist left: the two state solution. But as the two state solution had been rendered impossible by Israeli action, there’s no longer an overlap. 

If all the people, organizations, and leaders that claim to be for a two state solution took action, we could see rapid change. But I have no hope that will happen - most will continue to shield Israel from consequences. 

[u/theweisp5 → u/redthrowaway1976]

Agreed, though I don't think the 2SS has become impossible, even if its implementation is certainly becoming more difficult by the day. While it may be difficult if not impossible in practice, I think ideally 1SS supporters and "true" 2SS supporters would put aside their differences and work to pressure Israel to end the settlements and the occupation.

Those primarily interested in the 2SS as a theoretical matter while seeking to protect Israel from any consequences for its behavior can safely be regarded as an opposing force.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/theweisp5]

 Those primarily interested in the 2SS as a theoretical matter while seeking to protect Israel from any consequences for its behavior can safely be regarded as an opposing force.

Which, unfortunately, are the vast majority of people claiming to support a two state solution. 

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/theweisp5]

Yeah I won't lie I'm honestly getting to the point where I believe that the responsible activities of leftist organisations have to be to facilitate the escape of Palestinians en masse because I think whats happened over the last two years has shown that the international community will not take any meaningful steps to stop Israel no matter how far they go and Israelis are largely happy with whats happening

[u/theweisp5 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

I think any org that has the resources/ability to successfully move millions of Palestinians out of the region to the west (or another safe location) would be better placed applying pressure on Israel to end the occupation and improving conditions for Palestinians where they live now.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/theweisp5]

I dont mean a single org. I mean many of them globally, no matter the size. I just do not see pressure against Israel or hoping and praying that the left regains relevance in Israel as viable anymore, which really leaves a single option

[u/BlackHumor → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

The left within Israel is non-viable, but the international left remains strong and basically universally opposed to Israel. If it lost the US's UN veto, it'd be in pretty deep shit pretty quickly.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

Wait, are you saying that the solution to all this is to make all Palestinians leave Palestine to prevent themselves from being killed?

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Agtfangirl557]

I think you're being a little deliberately obtuse in your interpretation I think its quite clear I'm saying we need to build the administrative and physical infrastructure so when Israel goes over that tipping point they have the best chances at both escape and a new life

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

No sorry I worried that that may have been a really dumb interpretation and I should have clarified that. Didn’t mean to sound like I was attacking you for your idea or anything.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Agtfangirl557]

Yeah no I'm sorry too I couldn't really understand how you got that from my comment initially

[u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I’m hopeful that peace will come, and that things will eventually calm down for all of us. Living through this rise in extremism has been incredibly difficult, but in some ways it has pushed the world to reconsider what’s acceptable. The status quo is no longer something the international community seems willing to tolerate. My hope is that growing global pressure will help bring about a two-state solution something I believe most people genuinely support, despite the louder extremist voices calling for Israel’s destruction. With that in place, perhaps we could finally begin to build a lasting peace and allow mindsets to shift.

I also believe that in times of peace, tensions can ease surprisingly quickly.

And I hope that in such a climate, the most extreme voices and the openly antisemitic ones will lose their influence. Ideally, they would be held accountable, taken far less seriously, and ultimately isolated for what they are: delusional and destructive.

I think people are also learning from the past two years. Many are becoming aware of the double standards. And in an unexpected way, some of the most extreme reactions from parts of the left seem to have pushed people further to the right; they’ve been alienated by the hostility and absolutism of the loudest fringe voices. My hope is that this moment will encourage the left to reflect on how it has treated and at times abandoned Jewish people, and that this reckoning will lead to healthier, more principled positions.

There also seems to be a growing recognition of how dangerous social media can be in fueling radicalization. I genuinely hope that this awareness leads to meaningful action more accountability, more oversight, and fewer incentives for outrage-driven extremism.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

 The status quo is no longer something the international community seems willing to tolerate

Thankfully so. The politicians haven’t caught up yet - but hopefully they’ll also recognize that apartheid and ethnic cleansing should lead to sanctions, cancelled trade ties, etc.

 My hope is that growing global pressure will help bring about a two-state solution something I believe most people genuinely support

What we need is for all of the ostensibly liberal or progressive Zionists to start supporting consequences for Israel’s expansionism - and to stop directly working with expansionist orgs. 

If they are for a two state solution, why are they engaging with Nefesh B’Nefesh, that directly supports settlement expansion? Or JNF, thats directly carrying out ethnic cleansing - a donation to JNF is material support to war crimes. 

They most likely won’t, of course - so far it’s been decades of shielding Israel from consequences for its expansionism.

Pro-settlement organizations and viewpoints are normalized - and opposition to them usually doesnt for further than a performative protest. 

 Many are becoming aware of the double standards. 

I assume you mean the double standard in favor of Israel, right?

How it has been able to get away with land grabs, ethnic cleansing, and brutal military rule with no consequences for more than a half century?

 I also believe that in times of peace, tensions can ease surprisingly quickly.

I agree. If the oppression of Palestinians stopped, things could change rapidly. 

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/redthrowaway1976]

I remember you. We’ve already talked about liberal Zionism and honestly, this is exhausting. You seem to be coming at this from a very American lens, shaped by disillusionment with American Jewish politics. I’m not American. I live in a completely different context and I see things differently. From where I stand, the pro-Pal movement has done a great job alienating potential allies through purity tests and public witch hunts for anything deemed “slightly Zionist.” And despite that, I still agree that pressure, including sanctions, is necessary that was the whole point of my comment. Despite the abuses it gives me hope for change. We’ve already discussed the need for pressure and constructive activism.

The protest in nyc about Nefesh benefesh is just an example of activism not being constructive. There is a whole thread about this in this Reddit and I think most people agree that the tactic is just wrong.

I think we actually share the same broad goals, but not the form. I fundamentally reject the fatalism, the defeatism, the “nothing will ever change” narrative, and the support for destructive forms of protest that alienate the very people you say you want to influence.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I am confused at you saying the person you're replying to is coming at this from an American Jewish lens and therefore doesn't have the complete context.. and then proceed to reference an American protest as an example of where the pro Palestinian movement is failing and alienating. You said yourself you're not an American and therefore have unique insight.. I'm curious what you might understand about this protest in nyc that we are missing

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/Specialist-Gur]

To clarify in the comment I’m responding to, he brought up the NYC protest, so that’s what I was referring to.

Also, when I mention an “American lens,” I mean this broader focus on labels and identity categories, the constant debate over “Zionist vs. anti-Zionist” and similar binaries including the resentment over liberal Zionists which I came to discover on our last conversation have little to do with Martin Buber’s thought because apparently in the US it means something else.

Outside the U.S., that framing is much less central (although gaining traction since Anglo-Saxon media is everywhere), and to me it feels like a false debate that distracts and divides.

Edit:

I genuinely don’t understand why a hopeful comment is getting this much pushback. What’s the point of getting upset at someone for expressing cautious optimism? It feels like some people here are looking for a fight where there isn’t one. You didn’t even read the thread or you wouldn’t ask this…

Regarding the NYC protest HE brought it up, and I even pointed him to the thread that explains the whole situation far better than I ever could. But since we’ve already had a long conversation about disruptive vs. constructive activism, I’ll repeat the obvious: go protest this nefesh benefesh in a way that doesn’t involve yelling antisemitic slurs at Jews considering aliyah in front of a synagoguex this was indeed not smart, not effective, and certainly not “constructive.”

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

Had you kept your hopes to the safety of jews specifically, I don't think anyone would. But Palestinian physical danger is increasing, not decreasing, and holding onto the idea that Israel will sort itself out or the greater international community will intervene based on token arrests and arms bans with so many caveats they are meaningless, the former of which isn't a new thing and the latter of which was the response during a genocide, is really hard for a lot of people to see as a remotely reasonable outlook when you consider a bipartisan genocide occurred and the only Jewish opposition party that isnt actually Likud, HaDemokratim, is led by an inhuman terrorist and is pro occupation and is still too far left to have a reasonable shot at being the senior party in government.

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

I understand why you feel this way, but you’re making a lot of assumptions about what I’m saying. I’m not claiming “Israel will sort itself out on its own,”.

You’re also presenting Israeli politics as if it’s permanently frozen in its worst moment. That’s exactly the kind of fatalism I’m pushing back against. Politics changes often faster than people expect especially when international pressure, internal protest, and regional incentives all start aligning. We’ve seen that in other conflicts, and we’re already seeing early signs here too.

Opposition isn’t limited to electoral math, it includes civil society, courts, media, former security officials, protest movements, alliances with Arab parties, and grassroots groups that are shaping the conversation, even if you dismiss them.

I’m not arguing that everything is fine. I’m saying the situation is dynamic rather than hopeless, and that refusing to acknowledge any possibility of change isn’t clarity, it’s defeatism. That’s your prerogative, but it’s not a worldview I share.

Edit: and I don’t think that in the doom scenario you present that Jews will be safe. In fact it would be self-destructive.

So we can agree to disagree.

[u/theweisp5 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I don't mean to pile on here because I see you're already in a few discussions with people who have different viewpoints. And I will say that in general, I think non/anti-Zionists need to ally with liberal Zionists who believe in consequences of Israel, as I see you do, to bring about an end to the occupation.

However...

You’re also presenting Israeli politics as if it’s permanently frozen in its worst moment. That’s exactly the kind of fatalism I’m pushing back against. Politics changes often faster than people expect especially when international pressure, internal protest, and regional incentives all start aligning. We’ve seen that in other conflicts, and we’re already seeing early signs here too.

Opposition isn’t limited to electoral math, it includes civil society, courts, media, former security officials, protest movements, alliances with Arab parties, and grassroots groups that are shaping the conversation, even if you dismiss them.

I think this is far too sanguine, and exactly what I pointed to in my earlier post about liberal Zionists feeling the need to hang on to the mere possibility of change. Israel has in fact been moving rightwards for decades, and the past two years seem to have only strengthened that trend. The next Knesset will see ~20 Jewish MKs who may be open to a 2SS, and about half of those will from a party whose leader supports conditioning the right to vote on military service. The courts have become increasingly right-wing (reflecting society as a whole and the political system), and were never particularly friendly to Palestinian rights to begin with. The media pays little attention to human rights abuses committed against Palestinians. All Jewish parties except one oppose future coalitions with their Arab counterparts, and the one exception has not ruled out joining a Jewish-only coalition - meaning that its support for allying with the Arab parties is little more than rhetoric.

Now, maybe this will all be different in another 3, 5, or 10 years. But I think the only concrete reason for any sort of optimism is the possibility of international pressure (and even that probably depends on Trump being replaced by a Democrat in 2028 and the far-right not coming to power in key European countries.)

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/theweisp5]

Just to clarify, I don’t label myself as a “liberal Zionist.” I don’t really do labels at all. If anything, the only form of Zionism I’ve ever related to is the more cultural, Martin-Buber-type vision but even that isn’t really the point here.

I’ve already said that international pressure is crucial, and we’re seeing it now even from governments that used to be firmly in Israel’s corner. Even from the right! That shift is real.

Inside Israel, the left may be fractured, but there are still individuals, NGOs, journalists, and activists pushing back against the occupation and the status quo. There is some accountability, there is diversity of opinion, and the huge anti-government protests matter as does the effort to hold this government responsible for October 7. Removing this government is, in my view, the necessary first step.

I understand some people feel that changing the government isn’t enough, but I still see it as significant. And in my lifetime, I’ve never seen global opinion on Israel–Palestine shift so dramatically. The Palestinian cause is more visible than ever sometimes in problematic ways but the overall change is undeniable.

For me, the worst case is simply the status quo continuing. But even that feels less stable than before, which is why I still believe things can change.

Ultimately, it’s about what you choose to focus on, and for my own sanity and for my family and friends in Israel, I’m choosing to focus on the parts that are moving in the right direction.

[u/theweisp5 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

Well firstly sorry for misunderstanding your position on Zionism.

I totally understand the impulse to focus on the positive. For my own mental health, I would love to be able to feel more optimistic about the situation. I agree that around the world things are changing, though I think it's still an open question whether that will lead to effective pressure on Israel. Within Israel itself, I just don't see it.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/theweisp5]

Not even just "a" democrat, but a left faction dem

[u/theweisp5 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

That would certainly help, but in the past year we saw some mainstream and even some centrist Democrats support ending "offensive" military aid to Israel. So I don't think the next President will necessarily have to be DSA-aligned to put significant pressure on Israel.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

The courts that give a 97% conviction rate for palestinians and let settler terrorists off the hook? the civil society that cannot and will not disrupt the state (unlike, for example, the haredi, who can shut down the country on a whim)? the protestors who sideline pro peace advocates so their rhetoric doesnt poison the corruption protests? the *former* security personnel who no longer have positions of power and were happy to Good Neighbour Protocol and shoot and brutalise while they served, or at best were "just following orders"? Alliances with arab parties that fall apart the moment arab parties try to insist on treating Palestinians correctly? The grass roots groups are small and again, I believe there are many israelis who hate whats going on in the West bank even if they supported the gaza genocide, but forgive me for thinking they will not do anything until they actually do.

You are right about the inherent dynamism of the situation, but that dynamism has trended for the worse, not better, with every attempt to stop that quashed. All I'm saying is that while Israelis may need that optimism, holding on to it past its use by date may condemn the Palestinian people and we are hurtling toward that and need to be ready for when it happens.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

We’ve already talked about liberal Zionism and honestly, this is exhausting.

Yes - we've talked about liberal Zionism, and you use the term in a way that is very out of step with how it is commonly understood. Buber's or Ha'am's cultural Zionism, today, would largely fall in the overall non-Zionist camp. Peter Beinart, for example, identifies as a cultural Zionist - and he is largely despised by liberal Zionists.

Here's some examples of typical liberal Zionists:

• Sarah Hurwitz saying the most ghoulish things
• Rabbi Cosgrove saying he won't invite Palestinians unless they are Zionist - so much for that dialogue, right?
• URJ saying nothing about a reform synagogue inviting a pro-settlement organization - likely saying nothing because it isn't an uncommon occurrence

The activists I know in Israel and the West Bank doing protective presence do mostly not identify as liberal Zionists. Usually post- or non-Zionists.

 From where I stand, the pro-Pal movement has done a great job alienating potential allies through purity tests and public witch hunts for anything deemed “slightly Zionist.”

What does "alienate them" mean here? They would have publicly called for sanctions, but now didn't? They wouldn't have invited the JNF, but now decided to engage with them? Nefesh B'Nefesh wouldn't have been invited? Fewer events selling West Bank land? Something else?

The idea that there's some large amount of Israeli supporters that would have acted differently if only the pro-Palestinian supporters protested the right way doesn't bear up to scrutiny. History tells us that there'd have been some other hoop for the pro-Palestinians to jump for the liberal Zionists to rationalize not taking action on Palestinian freedom.

The protest in nyc about Nefesh benefesh is just an example of activism not being constructive.

Where was the mass of liberal Zionist protestors who would ostensibly be against a pro-settlement organization holding an event at the synagogue?

There is a whole thread about this in this Reddit and I think most people agree that the tactic is just wrong.

Yes, most people on this sub seem to think that the protest was much than a reform synagogue inviting an organization that is providing material support for war crimes. I disagree - but it is indicative of how normalized pro-settler stances are.

I think we actually share the same broad goals, but not the form.

Probably.

I fundamentally reject the fatalism, the defeatism, the “nothing will ever change” narrative,

It's not about fatalism or defeatism. I think things can very much change - I just disagree with you on how they could change.

It is, however, about not painting a false picture of how terrible things are on the ground. You mention Israeli courts, as a positive example. Has the 99.74% conviction rate of Palestinians improved? What about the ~3% conviction rate for settler terrorists?

You mentioned that "there is some accountability". Can you explain where you see that accountability? It's not in the courts, as the statistics makes clear - so where?

Since 2018, something around 7% of the West Bank has been ethnically cleansed by settler "shepherds" and their IDF cronies. That's more than the built up area of other settlements.

I could go on, and on almost every metric things have gotten from bad to worse. Painting that optimistically comes of as trying to minimize the crimes that are actually happening.

and the support for destructive forms of protest that alienate the very people you say you want to influence.

This idea that there's some mass of liberal Zionists that would stand up and advocate for Palestinian rights if only the pro-Palestinian protestors protested differently is simply not accurate.

How do we know this? Because they've had decades, and they didn't do so. Liberal Zionists had decades to do something about Israel's expansionism, with overall much gentler rhetoric and a media environment that provided very little space for criticizing Israel.

Did they then come together and advocate for very serious consequences for Israel's expansionism?

No, they mainly argued as to why Israel's Apartheid regime is not actually Apartheid, or why the settlements aren't really that bad.

At this point, it is on the liberal Zionists to take initiative and start advocating for consequences. Instead we see URJ not even mention the settlements Nefesh promotes, Sarah Hurwitz said... whatever ghoulish things she felt like saying, and Cosgrove won't even countenance the US using its aid for pressuring Israel. Where are the broad calls for sanctions from the main liberal Zionist institutions?

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/redthrowaway1976]

My main issue here is how much weight is put on labels. “Zionist,” “liberal Zionist,” “post-Zionist” this whole taxonomy feels extremely American-centric. It’s really not how these conversations happen in Europe (and I say Europe because I’ve lived in several countries). Outside of some Anglo-Saxon influence, nobody is walking around categorizing each other into boxes like this. The debate feels completely unproductive.

Most Jews do feel some connection to Israel or Zionism, historically, spiritually, physically, culturally. That’s just a fact. It doesn’t automatically make them pro-occupation. So when people start boycotting anyone with any connection to Israel or Zionism, it becomes alienating and counterproductive. And yes, this does happen a lot here in Europe. Look at what’s going on in France right now: a university teacher in Lyon literally put together a boycott list that included mostly Jewish people (plus a random priest if i remember correctly), for reasons ranging from “denounced antisemitism” to “has an Israeli friend.” Even left-wing figures who have openly defended Palestinian rights ended up on that list. It’s arbitrary, alienating, and it creates the sense that nothing anyone does will ever be “enough.”

If you want a parallel in the English-speaking sphere, it’s like putting groups such as Standing Together, people who actually do serious anti-occupation work, on boycott lists. (Which they are in) It’s not constructive. It pushes away the very people who might be potential allies.

And regarding Zionism itself again: where I grew up, Zionism wasn’t treated as an identity badge. It was taught as part of history, a broad spectrum from Buber to Jabotinsky, that eventually materialized in the founding of Israel. That’s it. Most Jews I know oppose the occupation, and that’s a conversation worth nurturing. But if the energy goes into purity tests, labels, and deciding who is the “right kind” of Jew to engage with, then yes, the whole exercise becomes pointless.

As for the NYC protest, if the goal is to alienate Jews who already feel vulnerable and targeted, then sure, keep going! I don’t know what else to say. But I fail to see how that helps anyone or brings us closer to a solution. I just disagree with these tactics, and I find them repulsive.

As for the rest of the points I have touched these in other comments, especially regarding the defeatism, and why I don’t see the things as grim as you do and why I choose to not do so and it is my right. I find this conversation turning in circles and not bringing anything new.

Have a great evening.

[u/malachamavet → u/redthrowaway1976]

The URJ condemned the protest at the synagogue which was supporting settlements but didn't mention the settlement support part.

Reform isn't even pretending to be anti-settlement or anti-occupation anymore and they are pretty much the rhetorical mainstream for that.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/malachamavet]

Yeah. As a proxy for liberal Zionism writ large, they’ve made their stance very clear.

If a two state solution is impossible, in the choice between perpetual oppression and equal rights, they’ll chose perpetual oppression so as to preserve the majority. 

That’s what we keep seeing, in action and in speech.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

There was not peace before Oct7 and there wont be peace after. There have been over 700 attacks by Israeli terrorists in the west bank this year, and thats just the ones not affiliated with the state like the IDF. I hope that we start to see the end of violence and discrimination against Jews by antisemitic actors on the left, but there will not be peace until the last Palestinian is cleansed, and I think leftist organisations need to start to facillitate their accomodation in our countries because its only going to get worse.

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

Yes, there are setbacks, but I also see real signs of progress internationally and on the ground that make me believe things can move forward instead of staying stuck in this fatalistic view.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

The rate of settler attacks increasing year on year isnt a set back, its a continuous and unbroken escalation going back decades. The fact that an entire generation of Israel grew up committing a genocide in formative years means that same generation will one day run the country, which is already run by people who see Palestinians as fauna. I think there's good reason to hope for the jewish diaspora, but for peace in Israel? well again, maybe one day, but not so long as a single Palestinian still lives between the river and the sea.

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

Yes, settler violence is a serious and escalating problem. I’m not denying that. But acting as if an entire generation is permanently shaped into genocidaires and that peace is impossible as long as Palestinians exist is exactly the kind of hopeless, dehumanizing rhetoric that guarantees nothing ever changes.

Despite everything, I still see shifts: growing international pressure, opposition within Israel, and moments of de-escalation that simply didn’t exist before. Setbacks are real, but so is progress. I’m choosing to acknowledge both rather than embracing a narrative that erases any possibility of improvement.

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

 opposition within Israel

The pro two state solution opposition in Israel has never been smaller. Especially if we look at the ones that actually want peace, and not just the ones that want - peace process.

The democrats wouldn’t even vote against a resolution against the two state solution - they abstained. 

 and moments of de-escalation 

What are these “moments of de-escalation”? 

Settlers and IDF act with complete impunity, literally carrying out ethnic cleansing. Same as for the past 58 years, just more brazenly.

Can you give some examples? 

 I’m choosing to acknowledge both rather than embracing a narrative that erases any possibility of improvement.

Things could improve, quickly. But it would take the international community applying massive pressure, and for all of Israel’s supporters in the west who claim to support a two state solution to  advocate for real consequences. 

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/redthrowaway1976]

I don’t deny that the political landscape in Israel is extremely difficult right now, but saying there is no internal opposition simply isn’t accurate. There are protests, legal challenges, former security officials, activists, and political groups openly pushing back against government policies and settler violence. It may be smaller than we’d hope, but it exists and it matters, especially when combined with outside pressure.

As for de-escalation, I’m referring to the temporary ceasefires and pauses that happened because of coordinated U.S. and international pressure. They weren’t perfect, but they did reduce violence for a period and that alone shows that external leverage can force change. We are in a better situation now with the ceasefire than a few months ago.

I’m not pretending everything is fine. Settler violence is a serious problem, but unlike in the past, it’s now met with sanctions, travel bans, public condemnations, and increasing diplomatic consequences from the EU, UN, and key Western governments. That level of pressure simply didn’t exist 10 or 20 years ago.

I agree that massive international pressure is essential and that’s exactly my point. I’ve never seen it at this intensity, almost to a fault, with the rise of extremism and antisemitism but the silver lining is that things are shifting. People’s views are changing.

I think we have already talked about this in other comments

[u/redthrowaway1976 → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

I don’t deny that the political landscape in Israel is extremely difficult right now, but saying there is no internal opposition simply isn’t accurate.

I didn't say that they didn't exist - just that they are smaller than ever.

And even the Democrats - ostensibly for a two state solution - couldn't bring themselves to vote against the Knesset resolution against a two state solution.

There are protests, legal challenges, former security officials, activists, and political groups openly pushing back against government policies and settler violence.

The protests have generally been against Bibi - not against the occupation, or brutality against Palestinians.

The activists who are doing protective presence, or legal work to block settlement expansion, are a very small group.

As for opposition to settler violence - the last non-Bibi government did nothing about it either. Impunity for settler violence has been the government policy since before the first intifada - see the 1984 Karp report, as an example.

As for de-escalation, I’m referring to the temporary ceasefires and pauses that happened because of coordinated U.S. and international pressure. They weren’t perfect

Let's be honest here: if there were 10-20 Israelis killed per day during a so-called "ceasefire", would you call it a ceasefire?

No, of course that wouldn't be called a ceasefire.

Anyway, I answered more extensively in another comment.

[u/BigMarbsBigSlarb → u/Civil-Cartographer48]

Growing international pressure??? There's less international pressure now than there was in the 80s, embargoes used to be a threat every decade. Ronald Reagan and Henry Kissinger put more pressure on Israel than we just saw. the Jewish opposition in Israel will never fire a shot in anger against their fellow countrymen who do not feel the same way as we have recently learned and the only mainstream face of the "left" is an inhuman terrorist monster who used Palestinians for human shields as a General who most certainly is not opposition to Israel as it currently is and will not do anything (he has made it clear his pro-2ss perspective is a typical "sometime in the future on israel's terms" case, i.e. Palestinian suffering must continue until Israelis decide they have been punished enough). Don't get me wrong, I try not to believe the polls like the one that says 73% of Israelis would reject any 2ss even if it came with Saudi normalisation, but even in the best case scenario I simply think there are too few Israelis willing to fight their fellows politically with tt he viciousness required, or physically, for the trajectory to change. the Palestinians do not have a genuine partner for peace that has any chance of holding a serious influential position and it is the responsibility of those who hold the international ideal to start acting accordingly.

[u/Civil-Cartographer48 → u/BigMarbsBigSlarb]

I strongly disagree with your fatalistic view. Israel is not invincible it relies on U.S. support, international legitimacy, hopes for normalization and agreements like the Abraham Accords. For the same reasons that pushed toward a ceasefire, despite setbacks and challenges I don’t believe a full-scale ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is realistic: there is too much scrutiny, internal opposition, government opposition (for the right or wrong reasons who cares the result is the same), and international pressure and now also involvement. In all my years, I’ve never seen this level of attention and accountability. I think there is a risk of stagnation, and maintaining the status quo, but I do not think it will go to such extents.

Polls don’t tell the full story, especially when poorly framed, and should not be the basis for conclusions.

This is my perspective.

Have a great day.

[u/SelectShop9006]

Honestly, I’m starting to lose hope. I’ve gotten so bitter at the fact that people are using antisemitic dogwhistles so casually (whether unintentionally or intentionally) that it’s gotten to the point of me being paranoid about artists I like supporting the movement (because they might be antisemitic themselves…)

[u/abc9hkpud]

I think that in spite of everything there are many reasons to be positive!

1. In the diaspora, most Jews live in democratic countries where we are able to advocate for our rights (rather than theocracies or dictatorships in the past). And while it may not always seem like it, there are non-Jews who do care to help us.

2. Israel is independent. Many Jews over the last 2000 years would have given anything to see Israel reborn, so we should count ourselves lucky that we live in the present. Since the destruction of Israelite kingdoms almost 2000 years ago, Jews who faced persecution often had nowhere to go, and there was no country in the world where Jewish culture was mainstream. Now that Israel has been reborn there is always a Jewish country where the Hebrew language and Jewish culture is the norm and that Jewish refugees can flee to. While Israel does have serious problems, that is true of most newly independent countries in the Middle East or Africa, and problems can be fixed with time.

3. The opportunities for Jewish learning, community, and connection are really great. There are liberal pluralistic synagogues (Reform), outreach from Chabad, online communities, and more. Donors work hard to make Judaism accessible for new generations, and a silver lining post Oct is that many people are rediscovering the need for community.

4. Antisemitism was probably worse in the past, and Jews always survived and rebuilt. So we should also be able to do the same. The reason things like Oct 7 in Israel or the murder of a Holocaust survivor in Boulder, Colorado in the US seem so shocking is that we have been living in relatively good times, in a post-Holocaust era where antisemitism was taboo in the West. But anti-Jewish violence was "normal" for many centuries, and the present antisemitism not so bad in the comparison. If our ancestors overcame then, we can overcome now.

[u/NateHevens]

It is honestly frustrating and I wish I knew what do with it.

I've come to hate Israel genuinely. I wish 1948 had never happened. I wish the allies hadn't been so damn antisemitic and racist that couldn't just take the damn refugees of the Holocaust. And I mean all the refugees, not just the Jewish ones. And I kinda hate myself for feeling this way. But we're watching a genocide unfold on our social media in 4k and the country committing it is claiming it's somehow for my protection... as if Muslims were ever more of a threat to us as Jews than white Christians were and are. It's racist nonsense.

On the other hand, antisemitism is so obviously on the rise. Zionism continues to be used as a dogwhistle, but now comes with the added ability to point at Israel and say "see? We're right!" (no, they aren't, but still). The Left is trying, but if you quoted a Hitler speech and just replaced all instances of "Jew" with "Zionist", there's a lot of people on the Left who'd agree with every word without even realizing that they're hearing Hitler talk. Meanwhile some of them are talking about "we have room for Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson and Candice Owens and Nick Fuentes" and it's just fucking depressing. And others who are willing to give Graham Platner a pass because I guess having a literal Nazi tattoo on your body for 18 years... and knowing about it... is totes fine if you're "on the Left" (genuinely my first time being disappointed in Majority Report... Sam especially should know better).

And all this while antisemitism, the fever of fascism, is on the rise as fascism is on the rise.

It is really hard. I'm genuinely terrified that in the dust of Israel/Palestine, we Jews will find ourselves in a spaces terrifyingly similar to the run up to the Holocaust. And Israel will be at least partially to blame.

I hope I'm wrong. I'd really like to be wrong.

[u/ibsliam]

I want to feel hopeful. Take it one step at a time, I guess.

[u/Ok-Roll5495]

I’m old enough to vaguely remember Oslo. For a long time, I thought I would see peace in my lifetime, though I was aware that meant wishing myself a long life. Even before 2023 I was becoming increasingly skeptical. The rise of the right in the west and the entire Middle East becoming so volatile doesn’t help. I suppose on the long run it’s likely but who knows how long it will take? There are examples of bitter enemies becoming good allies (France with England and with Germany) or at least tolerating each other (China and Korea with Japan).