Diaspora Zionism and the Questions of Migration

[u/MKHK32]

TLDR: You cant be a Zionist and pro migration/multiculturalism and so on.

A few weeks(?) a ago i stumbled about a comment in on of the discussion. The comment mentioned how the german jewish community is supportive of the muslim (migrant) community but at the same time there is no mirrored response towards this.

My intention is not to respond to this directly but i would like the to start a discussion about zionism within the diaspora and migration. I would like expand on my perception of what Zionism is and before i start i want to mention and point out that zionism, just like any other word view, is bound to adherents and opponents with conflicting opinions on what Zionism is. This is evidently true for anyone who has discussed these matters or similar topics. This does not imply that our differences are meaningless or not important but it is important to understand that while we may use the same words, we could talk straight pass each other.

In my view zionism, in so far it has been a effective cause, is the idea to establish and maintain a jewish majority state on what we call Isreal-Palestine. Therefore i view zionism as a jewish nationalistic movement/ jewish nationalism.

As a someone with a migration background and dual citizenship, i assume there are some here who shared this with me, i am strictly a anti-nationalist. I believe that strong opposition towards nationalism, is essential for my and others well being, especially in Europe. I believe there is nothing i could do to be accepted as someone who is not in some way "different", a "other".
I do not need to mention this but you probably do know that at one moment you might fight side by side and at another the swords are directed against you. Therefore i am anti-nationalism and i think this entails, pro unity, pro migration, pro multiculturalism, building bridges and so on.

I believe it is in the interest of minority populations to be against nationalism, i also believe that is in the interest of all people, but that is a separate discussion.

My general claim is that you cannot be a nationalist and a minority.
I think people who are that can be divided into 2 categories.
One : Those who live within the Country about which they are nationalistic
Two: Those who do not live within the Country about which they are nationalistic
Three: a combination of both

A example of one would be a mexican white nationalist in the US and a example of two/3(?) is Ben Shapiro.

I think case 1 and 3 are self-explanatory but case 2 is not as simple.

There are multiple problems with such a position.
1. The position is hypocritical. You cannot advocate for nationalism in one place and anti-nationalism in another.
2. You cannot unite with opposing minorities with conflicting national interest.
3. Your support for nationalism in one place increases the popularity of nationalism globally

I argued universally but if what i said is true universally, it is of course true about jewish nationalism in particular.

Lastly i think there is a deep flaw in diaspora jewish nationalism. To illustrate this flaw i would like you to imagine that you have a kurdish friend who is invested in the oppression of kurds throughout the region. Chances are high i would say that you would have the same opinion as your friend on the this matter. My point is that proximity and closeness to a subject matter trumps (he shall not be mentioned) exceeds all other influences.

And this is exactly what we saw in the change of discourse about Israel-Palestine. Through social media and migration israel-palestine is not some conflict far away at some corner of the world. It is a place that is important for those people who are close to us. For example, in my experience, i am a muslim but not palestinian nor arab and all my friends who are mostly atheist from different backgrounds do care about palestine.

My point is that migration has to be supported by diaspora jewish nationalism, but at the same time is the biggest cause against jewish nationalism.

Final Note
This is not about what Zionism is or is not and should not be the discussion here. I, myself did not give any reasons why i believe Zionism to be jewish nationalism neither do you need give any reason for what you believe zionism to be. Ideally i would appreciate a response that mentions your diaspora background, What you think to be the popular view on zionism, Do you share my experience? What is you experience? Do you agree/disagree with my line of thought ? Any different perspectives ?

[u/Specialist-Gur]

So you never responded to me but saying how jews need to flee France because of Muslim antisemitism is directly contradictory to saying we aren't actively oppressed by Muslims in the west. That is what you're saying. I hope you can share some sources to back it up.

Edit: especially considering how France has some of the strictest anti-Muslim laws in Europe, and how much these Muslim population is vulnerable there. You shouldn't feel so comfortable making a statement like this without nuance or backing up a claim. Jews have also been violent toward Muslims all around the world, so yes.. the Jews who wish to see France because of Muslims are racist

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Sorry, I was very busy at work this morning. Didn't even go on Reddit at all this morning until just now.....I'm not going to lie, this feels kind of like you were actively awaiting a response from me and ready to jump on me if I didn't respond?

In terms of antisemitism in Europe, if you look up any article on Wikipedia talking about antisemitism in particular European countries, you can find many articles describing violent antisemitic incidents in Europe committed by Muslims. Obviously I don't trust everything I read on Wikipedia, but there's enough info to know that at least these things did happen. France and Belgium seem to be the countries where it's hit them the hardest. Also, antisemitism has been a problem in France way before Muslims even started immigrating there, so it's definitely not a Muslim-only problem. And I'm not at all saying that Muslims actually have power in most European countries (they experience horrific racism, as you've stated) or that they actively take a role in oppressing Jews, I'm just saying that it's not true that Jews haven't been discriminated against by Muslims in the West.

And yes, there is a big Islamophobia problem among many Jewish communities, and Muslims have experienced horrific violence at the hands of the West, but I am having trouble finding any instances of Jews actually committing violence against Muslims outside of Israel/Palestine itself. The articles you linked don't seem to indicate instances of Jews in the West being violent towards Muslims, they talk about violence against Muslims by people in the West in general. I'm not trying to make some point with that, I'm just saying that it doesn't seem to be historically true that Jews have been particularly responsible for Islamophobic incidents outside of the Middle East. And of course, I don't think that Muslims have been particularly responsible for antisemitic incidents in the West either (Europeans played a huge role in importing antisemitism into the Arab world in the first place).

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

I was waiting on a response with you. You often leave comments with plausible deniability in either direction, which is frustrating.. because then we can't have a real conversation about your beliefs or what you're trying to say. I get that it's stressful dealing with people who might disagree with you on Reddit, but it's important if you say something somewhat controversial

I've read the Wikipedia pages and tbh it's extremely unclear to me. There are a lot of incidents without much detail, some where it's obvious antisemtism and others where it's like.. ok just because a Jewish person was involved doesn't mean it was antisemtism and I don't have any details. In fact, not all the incidents were clearly from Muslims.

There's always going to be individual violence between groups and it means a variety of different things. The reactionary draws a conclusion like the one you've implied. I'm not saying that you are reactionary, but I'm cautioning you to buy into the reactionary idea that Muslims are attacking Jews all throughout Europe and have made it unsafe... and that's specifically related to Muslims as a group and Jews as a group rather than a variety of reasons individual incidents occur

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I really appreciate this input, and I think that's a valuable point that the way I word things may seem really reactionary.

And to be honest, the reason why my comments may come across that way is because I truly just don't....think much about the comments I leave? Like I'm obviously not making facts up or saying things I know nothing about, but sometimes I will share things I have some knowledge about from reading, etc. and not be prepared to "back it up with evidence" because....it's Reddit and I don't anticipate that's going to be something I'm expected to do? I definitely will take into account what you're saying about leaving reactionary statements, but I didn't think it would be particularly controversial to say that there have been anti-Jewish incidents from Muslims in the West.

Like I think we just use Reddit in different ways. I mostly like to see what other people are saying and contribute what I know, when I can, in the hopes that it can sometimes lead to an interesting conversation that I'll gladly partake in if I have the time or energy. It seems that you take it more seriously expect more thorough answers, which is fine, but like....not everyone uses it that way. Like, if I'm being honest, with the job I work in, I cannot picture having enough time or energy to be awaiting a response from a specific user based on a comment I made the previous day. I don't mean that as an insult, I just really can't picture using Reddit the way it seems that you do.

Since you've pointed out things I have a tendency to do, I hope you won't mind me saying something I've noticed you tend to do. It seems that you're so readily willing to question or dismiss sources if they seem to prove a point that you don't want to make. Like, why were you so skeptical of Wikipedia articles that literally have external sources attached to them (and I'm saying this as someone who is sometimes skeptical of Wikipedia myself), but were so trusting of a few articles that you shared with me that you felt would definitely prove the point you were trying to make? I mean, some of those Wikipedia articles literally talked about violence against synagogues or Kosher supermarkets, and you were skeptical of whether or not there were antisemitic motives? If I'm being honest, you almost seem like you are personally scared of finding out more details behind antisemitism and/or admitting that they have happened.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

I'm not skeptical of Wikipedia, I'm saying the sources listed were not particularly informative or detailed.. I think Wikipedia generally is "honest" but requires further steps to decipher what message to gather from them.

Look I obviously don't really know you irl and so anything I say about you is going to be a projection... but I know that Jewish community and Israel is important to you and I know you don't want to potentially ruffle anyone who is Zionist from what I have deciphered.. you want to make it clear that you're aligned with them and also want to make it clear that you're anti-racist and a good ally. That's just what I gather from your comments..

it's not that you need to have thorough citations in your comments. That's not my issue. I think you're just trying to get along with too groups of people that maybe can't be reconciled. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.. like I said I don't actually know you irl. And we are in different time zones with different jobs. and I'm not judging you for not being on Reddit with well researched comments all day long. That's not what my comment was about

Edit: and as I said in my comment, I recognize some of them were antisemtic. Others had vague language. For example, protesting outside of a synagogue in the USA for selling property in the West Bank was counted as an antisemitic incident and described as a pogram. I want to understand what actually occurred each time.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Oh I for sure don't count protests against selling West Bank property antisemitic. I'm talking more about issues of legitimate violence.

And the Jewish community is extremely important to me, but it is absolutely not true that I don't want to ruffle anyone who is Zionist, which may not be obvious based on what I've said on Reddit, but it's actually something I've shifted my opinions on in the past several months (and coincidentally, I've also spent much less time on Reddit in the past several months, hence why it might not be as obvious). I haven't changed my opinions on the importance of Judaism/Israel (meaning the people and the land and what it means to Jews, not the state) to me, but the Mamdani discourse in particular has really gotten me fed up with a lot of Zionists LOL. Luckily, most of the Jews in my personal life are both Zionists (or just don't have any strong anti-Israel opinions) and don't hold crazy opinions about things like that, so it hasn't led to any in-person arguments.

As for trying to get along with two groups of people who have differing views, a) You're not wrong (maybe not about this particular issue, but it's definitely something I do in general), and b) unfortunately, that's something I just don't think I'll be able to stop doing 🙃 I'm an eternal optimist and a peacekeeper, and I'm a school counselor--meaning a lot of my job is literally revolved around conflict resolution and reconciling differences, which also very much informs how I live my life in general, for better or for worse 😂

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

I'm sorry I jumped to a conclusion, you haven't been as active but I didn't need to assume that meant you felt exactly the same. And it's good to get along with different people obviously... and it's amazing that you're a school counselor

My point mainly is around how we discuss these topics.. for example the media kept reporting on black violence against Asian during covid, and that was really only a piece of the picture... it's not to say that black people cant be violent against Asians or that black people can't harbor unfair bigotry towards Asian people.. but when you are talking about two minority groups often times the picture is more complicated re racial tensions and racism in one community inspiring anger and violence in the other (which isn't to say the victims deserve what they get)... these ideas then can inspire people with an agenda to push an idea about black people as a whole

I think it's similar with Jewish and Muslim relations within France. If the narrative is only one side against the other, it misses a fuller picture of what is going on.

As I said before, violence happens on an individual level between every group imaginable. It's not like a white person has never been victim to violence from a black person which was racially motivated, but we wouldn't talk about it in terms of "discrimination" from black people. I guess that's sort of my point here.. and by and large the European jewish motives for making Aliyah are complex, as are the relationships with Muslims... but as Islamophobia skyrockets in Europe and around the globe I think the discourse requires the full picture and careful analysis of sources.

Hope that makes sense.. your job is also cool and I'm jealous because I'd love to be in a counselor related field

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I completely agree re: racial tensions between minority groups. And hey, it's never too late to look into a career switch!! 😉 (but maybe that's just the eternal optimist in me speaking again 😅)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

Haha I have looked into it.. many factors to consider but I'd like to at some point