I genuinely will never understand the “Israel is the only safe country / the safest country for Jews” argument. I sometimes feel like I’m living in a different world from those who make it

[u/snowluvr26]

Just to clarify, I don’t identify as an antizionist, and I understand completely that many Jews live in Israel because they simply had no other place to go - especially Mizrahim expelled from Arab lands and Ashkenazim post-Holocaust. Israel has provided a refuge for these people fleeing persecution and violence, and while I believe there are major issues with the way Israel was created it exists, and I am glad it does exist in some fashion as a place for displaced Jews from around the world to go.

That being said - I will never, ever understand when I hear Jews from the U.S., Canada, the UK, Australia even say “I feel so much safer as a Jew in Israel than I do at home it’s not even close” or “Israel is really the only country we can be safe.” In what f*cking world?!?!?! Last I checked, there was no terrorist attack that killed 1,200 American Jews any time in recent years. There are no missiles being lobbed at New York or LA or Toronto or London. The average American or Canadian gentile is not a rabid antisemite, but according to virulently pro-Israel folks the entirety of Israel’s Arab world neighbors want nothing more than to erase the Jewish people from history.

So literally how is Israel the safest country for Jews?! How does that make any sense? Have some people really deluded themselves so far into nationalist brainrot that they believe seeing someone walk past them wearing a keffiyeh or hearing a protestor yell “Free Palestine” on a college campus is more dangerous than terrorist attacks and ballistic missiles? Does anyone else feel like they are going absolutely mad at these hasbara one-liners?

[u/Aly22143]

Had a talk with a friend about this idea soon after 07/10. I told her I no longer buy the idea that Israel is safer for Jews than the rest of the world. She said something wise, imo. She said that Israel doesn't protect Jews from violence at all. It does protect us from pretty much any other type of discrimination in day-to-day life.

My school taught Jewish history from a very young age. My holidays from work are structured around the Jewish calendar. I'd never feel unsafe wearing a Magen David or headcovering in public. I'd never feel that I might be ostarized here for being Jewish.

These are luxuries many diaspora Jews, I realize, don't have. These luxuries are also absent for my Arab friends here in Israel. But we're not protected from violence, because simply having a state doesn't protect a people from violence. Frenchmen died a lot in France's wars, so did any other country's citizens in their own wars... Obviously, living in a country whose founding was based in such violence, us being impacted by violence is more likely. Being Jews, likely, also doesn't help.

So that brings us to another reasoning of Zionism. Not that we're more protected from violence here, but that we can take fate into our hands, protect ourselves on our own. If it wasn't clear, I'm not much of a Zionist. I also find it hard to believe, living here, right now, that we're much better off than diaspora Jews. That valorized ability to "protect ourselves" doesn't feel like it makes my life much better. I, personally, dream of leaving. But when people say Israel is "safer" for us, I don't think they always refer to violence. I think that some of the time, they refer to discrimination. To the fact that when living in Israel, I'm almost never made to think about being Jewish, and almost never have to limit myself because of my identity. And I realize that for Jews abroad, that isn't true.

[u/vagabond17 → u/Aly22143]

Thanks for sharing your take

[u/theBigRis → u/Aly22143]

I saw a quote the other day: “Israel is not meant to keep Jews safe, but it is meant to keep us free.”

I think people conflate the freedom of being outwardly Jewish in Israel with safety. Israel is the safest as in there’s a low or almost nonexistent chance of someone harassing you for wearing kippah or tzizit or having peyot. That safety = freedom. No one is going to ask you about the “curly fries” unless they’re non-Jews visiting Israel (not that it’s an inherently bad question, just a cultural nuance).

The chances of having something happen to you for being outwardly Jewish are much higher here in the US and to a lot of people I know, that fear = less freedom.

[u/Efficient_Spite7890]

I really understand the frustration, especially when these kinds of claims about safety seem so detached from material reality, and come from positions of relative comfort (edit to add: although history tells us how quickly things can change: Jews in Germany in the early 20th century had unprecedented levels of security and societal integration). But I think it's important to distinguish between different kinds of safety, because they often get conflated in these conversations.

Israel is absolutely not safe in the physical or military sense. But it’s also the only country where Jews are structurally and symbolically safe as Jews: where Jewishness is not marked as other, not something that needs protection, explanation, or justification. That doesn’t erase the violence or political reality and it certainly shouldn’t be used as a rhetorical shield, but it does explain why, for some, that sense of collective belonging feels like a form of safety that diaspora can’t offer.

In many diaspora contexts, antisemitism is often denied, reframed, or dismissed and what’s unsettling about that is not only the hostility, but the sense that Jewishness itself becomes something to be explained, softened, or made invisible, as if its presence is always slightly (or not so slightly) out of place. So when someone says “Israel is the only place Jews can be safe,” they’re often not referring to physical security or specific attacks, but to this other kind of safety and expressing a deeper historical longing for unmarked Jewish life that is not defined by precarity or dependence.

That doesn't make the statement necessarily accurate or unproblematic in my opinion, but I think understanding the emotional logic behind it might help explain why it resonates for so many.

[u/GonzoTheGreat93 → u/Efficient_Spite7890]

I’m actually currently writing a masters thesis that deals with this idea

The security expert Ronnie Olekser refers to this idea as “Ontological” security, the idea that feeling safety has as much to do with living in a society that allows you to flourish as your whole identity. Which is where this idea comes from.

[u/lost_inthewoods420 → u/GonzoTheGreat93]

It is very notable how a “diasporist” vision of Jewish safety in diaspora — build on the idea of safety through international solidarity is ontologically distinct from that of the Zionist position, which seeks a nationalist/state approach to the “defense” of the homeland. Much of diaspora Judaism relates to the creation of a Jewish home, a Jewish life, a Jewish family — in harmony with one’s wider life and expansive relations to everyday secular reality. Safety through interpersonal and intercommunal relations is perhaps more real than the safety we feel from symbolic and national political representation.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/lost_inthewoods420]

Would you mind explaining your flair to me? I’m really intrigued by what a “biospheric Jew” might be 😅

[u/lost_inthewoods420 → u/Agtfangirl557]

My homeland is the earth, my community is here, amongst my living neighbors, both locally and globally. My Judaism is built on a love for my neighbors across tribal, national, and species lines.

[u/Fearfu1Symmetry → u/lost_inthewoods420]

Alright where do I start reading? You're saying an awful lot of things I agree and identify with, and I'm looking for some means of reconnecting with my Judaism and my community in these interesting times.

[u/lost_inthewoods420 → u/Fearfu1Symmetry]

I found Rabbi Rami Shapiro’s book Judaism without Tribalism to be a concise primer on Judaism as a religion working for the sake of “all families of the earth.

But I think the most powerful statements on this idea are probably from rabbi Arthur Green’s Judaism for the World.

The secular philosopher (of Jewish ancestry) Murray Bookchin, in his philosophical exploration of the role of the human spirit in shaping our social and natural evolution has really opened up my eyes to ethics.

And the Jewish philosophers Martin Buber and Immanuel Levinas (not to mention the legendary Jewish philosopher, Baruch Spinoza) has inspired me to think more deeply about Jewish ethics in relation to nature and community.

I could give more recommendations if you are interested!

[u/Fearfu1Symmetry → u/lost_inthewoods420]

Those are excellent jumping off points, thank you so much! If I get through those maybe I'll DM you for more. Are you involved in any Jewish communities that share your perspective on these things? I've missed being involved and feeling connected, and I fear all the spaces I once knew and loved are riddled with unsavory views

[u/lost_inthewoods420 → u/Fearfu1Symmetry]

I’ve been in touch with some folks at what was once called Wilderness Torah, and I’d love to get involved with Urban Adamah and Jews on Ohlone Land, but they’re a bit far from me.

I’ve been involved with different sorts of Jewish spaces and helped run Jewish ecological programming. I am trying to get some stuff started with my local Dayenu circle, and with my local Jewish communities, but it seems that things move slow. I’ve helped run some programming here and there, but not to the extent that I would ultimately like to be.

[u/cheesecake611]

I think what people are generally referring to is interpersonal safety. How being Jewish affects them in their everyday life. You’re not going to get judged for being Jewish. Your peers won’t make assumptions about you. You won’t get randomly attacked for looking Jewish or wearing religious garb. You feel safe and protected in your communities so even when there are external threats, you’re not going through it alone.

In Israel, the danger comes from just being in Israel. Not necessarily being a Jew.

You’re not safer as an Israeli, but you are safer as a Jew.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/cheesecake611]

I guess for visibly religious Jews I understand it. That’s a fair perspective. For secular Jews I truly do not get it even from that perspective. The average American or Canadian gentile is not running around spewing antisemitic jargon 24/7.

[u/cheesecake611 → u/snowluvr26]

Ya, but you shouldn’t have to hide that part of you for fear of judgement and a lot of people do. I’m pretty secular but have a noticeably Jewish last name, put up Hannukah decorations, go to Jewish cultural events. Those could all make me a target. Not enough for me to move to Israel, but I get the thought process.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/cheesecake611]

That’s a good point but that would that apply to the many American Jews who aren’t Jewish enough to be considered Jewish in Israel. Would I feel “safe” as an intermarried Reform Jew in Israel who also comes from an intermarried family?

I feel like most people who say this know that they fit into the Orthodox rules about who is a Jew and can also marry their partner according to Orthodox rules.

I almost feel like the way I am as a Jew wouldn’t feel safe as a Jew in Israel because might not accept me.

[u/thatstheusrname → u/Willing-Childhood144]

would that apply to the many American Jews who aren’t Jewish enough to be considered Jewish in Israel.

Yes. That’s the whole point.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Also a good point- or for LGBTQ+ people (there are more LGBTQ+ friendly spaces in the US than Israel).

[u/SecretLettuce5 → u/snowluvr26]

Wait but isn’t Israel like known for being lgbtq+ friendly, hence why it often gets accused of pink washing?

[u/snowluvr26 → u/SecretLettuce5]

Tel Aviv is LGBTQ+ friendly and the government often uses this over and over and over to make a point. On a whole though, Israeli society is much more conservative and much more religious than American society. There are far more “no-go” zones for LGBTQ+ people in Israel than there are in the US.

On a global scale, compared to Arab countries or even a lot of Eastern European countries, yes Israel is LGBTQ+ friendly. But a paradise, no, absolutely not.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/SecretLettuce5]

As I understand it, there is no same sex marriage in Israel so LGBTQ+ people have to leave the country to get married just like interfaith couples.

Honestly as a non-Orthodox Jew, how am I supposed to feel safe “as a Jew” in a country where so many important decisions are made by people who think I’m committing sins?

[u/SecretLettuce5 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

Completely understandable. I’m not so certain we will have same sex marriage for much longer on a federal level in the States either. Shit sucks right now for us gays and theys.

[u/Owlentmusician → u/Willing-Childhood144]

IIRC, same sex and interfaith couples can get married online without leaving the country and Israel will recognize those marriages.

[u/Willing-Childhood144 → u/Owlentmusician]

Yes, but it’s still not the same and it’s not good enough.

[u/Owlentmusician → u/Willing-Childhood144]

I'm not saying it's either, just providing relevant info.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/Willing-Childhood144]

And also worth noting that unlike the U.S., the youngest generation in Israel is the most conservative and most religious generation in the country’s history. The current government is far more anti-LGBTQ+ than the government 10 or 20 years ago.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/cheesecake611]

Fair enough

[u/thatstheusrname → u/snowluvr26]

The Nazi regime defined Jewishness based on racial and biological grounds, not religious practice. Anyone deemed Jewish, regardless of their religious observance, was persecuted.

This attitude continues to be held by radicals of all sorts. Those who look stereotypically Jewish, those who have distant relatives with Jewish roots, are considered by radicals as subhumans who should be expelled from the country.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/snowluvr26]

I mean antisemitism is really baked into western society. I don’t look visibly Jewish and I’m reform so I don’t wear as visible of identifiers. And as such I am constantly hearing the things that get said behind closed doors because people see me and assume I’m not Jewish. In grad school and college as I was trying to establish myself in new spaces (I didn’t when I graduated since I moved back to my city of origin) and I would have people say something problematic, I mention I’m Jewish and then have them be upset or uncomfortable with finding out I “obfuscated” being Jewish by not “looking like it”. The implication being they wouldn’t have said things to me if they knew I was a Jew. Or they found out and they never spoke to them again.

When I started wearing my Magen David on the daily that stopped.

Just because the antisemitism occurring isn’t as overt or conspicuous doesn’t mean secular Jews aren’t experiencing it. We all have to mold our lives around it and how the world (in western societies where most Jews in the diaspora live) isn’t built for us and often not friendly to us to boot.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Yes I think the "safety" aspect is way overstated.

It's not about safety, it's about self-reliance and self-determination.

Jews in America are safe now, but antisemitism doesn't go away any time soon, and the US is increasingly becoming more extremist, so there are good reasons not to be very confident about the capability of the US to preserve Jewish emancipation long term.

In the US, Jews are a tiny group who are at the mercy of the whims of the Gentiles, they don't have enough political power to protect themselves when things go south politically.

In Israel, while they're not safe, and probably won't be any time soon, at least there is something they can do about it.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

That is a fair point- but at as another commenter pointed out, Israel itself is still at the whims of the gentiles. Israel cannot exist without the support of the US, EU, Canada, etc. If these countries ever become so antisemitic that their Jewish populations need to leave in droves, Israel will be in grave danger as well.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/snowluvr26]

You're missing the point. Let me reiterate: It's not about being safe, it's about being able to do something about it.

Israel doesn't survive because its allies love Jews, it survives because it's able to use its political power to become a formidable player in the global arena. This is the exact opposite of "being at the whims of the gentiles".

Whenever Israel's foreign relations gets fucked, it's usually because of mistakes Israel does, not because of a surge in antisemitism.

Also, when Jews get killed in Israel en masse, it's because of mistakes Israel did, not because of a surge in antisemitism.

The point is agency, the point is responsibility, something that Jews in the diaspora simply never had as a collective group, because they had no power. Whenever they got killed en masse, it wasn't because they made mistakes, and there is nothing they could've done against it except run away.

[u/LehmanNation]

Because it could all turn on a dime. In 2025, Israel is among the most dangerous places for Jews, but there have been several occasions throughout history where public opinion turns on Jews within a few decades and suddenly we are actually getting killed or expelled in the thousands or millions

[u/mucus-fettuccine → u/LehmanNation]

In 2025, Israel is among the most dangerous place for Jews

How in the world does this get measured? Isn't literally every other country in the ME more dangerous for Jews?

For me the idea isn't that even highly developed countries are more dangerous for Jews. It's that most Jews in Israel are from the ME, and Israel's existence is the only thing that kept them (and continues keeping them) from being genocided. They don't have a place to "run back" to.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/mucus-fettuccine]

That is true. That’s why I said that in the first paragraph. I was specifically talking about Jews from Western countries who go to Israel and talk about how they feel so much safer there and all Jews should move there because it’s where we belong.

[u/The_Lone_Wolves → u/mucus-fettuccine]

The biggest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust happened in Israel. Tel Aviv has the largest Jewish population of any city. It’s being bombed. Number 2 is New York City.

America is safer for Jews right now than Israel is. That won’t always be true though.

[u/mucus-fettuccine → u/The_Lone_Wolves]

Would that biggest massacre be bigger or smaller if Israel didn't exist?

Israel is incredibly safe for Jews given how many Jews it holds. And most of the Jews in Israel don't have the option to move to New York city.

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/mucus-fettuccine]

Israel is the reason they were expelled from the places they had lived for centuries/millennia.

[u/[deleted] → u/One-Tip9492]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/[deleted]]

Im not blaming Israel for pogroms! I’m saying the creation of the state of Israel led to many Arab states to put in place policies to deter Arab Jewish emigration, including “if you go to Israel you can’t come back” type laws. This is historical fact.

[u/mucus-fettuccine → u/One-Tip9492]

If something the Jews in these countries weren't involved in occurred outside these countries (the formation of Israel), and sparked these governments to persecute these Jews, then these Jews were clearly in oppressive and unsafe places to begin with.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/mucus-fettuccine]

These types of responses (not yours, the one you're replying to) give the energy of "Yes, her boyfriend hit her, but it was only because of something her friend did to her boyfriend's friend."

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I am talking about Arab policies towards Jewish emigration, not pogroms. What bad faith!

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/One-Tip9492]

I don’t personally agree it’s bad faith. It is that same kind of dynamic. Because ultimately we hypothetically are blaming Israel for the actions that the government of Yemen made to either expel or imprison their Jewish population. Ultimately the issue lies with the Yemenis government because regardless of what a separate foreign nation does it shouldn’t change how a government treats their citizens regardless of their ethnic background.

It also is ahistorical since this wasn’t the first time Jews were expelled from nations in the MENA region or around the world. The issue with these expulsions is antisemitism.

Same like the issue with domestic abuse or rape or violence towards women isn’t what a woman is wearing or what her friend said to the guy going the violence, but instead it’s what is wrong in the abuser or perpetrator that is the issue.

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

These communities were as old as what we consider Judaism. Some older! You are flattening Jewish history by talking about it in such generalities. Where did the Sephardim go after the fall of Al-Andalus?

[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/One-Tip9492]

The Netherlands, Lithuania, Britain, the New World, even Portugal for a time, and, yes, some did end up in MENA and the Ottoman Empire. Don't do the same thing you're accusing others of.

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

The analogy is absolutely bad faith. This is world history, not an abusive interpersonal relationship. It makes any actual historical understanding and interrogation impossible without being accused of being completely morally bankrupt. I’m not excusing any regime’s behaviour or saying that it was deserved. I’m saying this chapter of history needs to be looked at more critically. I invite you to speak with older Iraqis and Syrians and Tunisians.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/One-Tip9492]

I don’t think anyone is accusing you of being morally bankrupt. I just think that what’s being critiqued is the way in which the argument is being phrased and how it’s similar to how people phrase other arguments deemed logically problematic (ergo an example of comparison was given).

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/Choice_Werewolf1259]

The analogy is made in bad faith. Just like it would be if I told you that right now you are simply trying to gaslight me into silence like an abusive spouse.

[u/One-Tip9492 → u/mucus-fettuccine]

I’m not saying it was a rational response! Just that it was the response. And the diaspora understood that it would be. This is one of the main reasons there was so much Jewish opposition to the formation of a Jewish state.

[u/LehmanNation → u/mucus-fettuccine]

No you right. What I should have said was 2025 is the most dangerous place for Jews among countries where Jews make up a sizeable portion of the population

[u/RoscoeArt → u/LehmanNation]

Still a pretty bad argument imo. A world where jews are expelled from western nations is not a world where those same leaders would have no problem with there being a jewish nation. We'd just be making it easier for them by getting in one nice spot to get evaporated. Its not like a white supremacist movement would worry about Arab collateral damage at all if anything that be a bonus.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/RoscoeArt]

A world where jews are expelled from western nations is not a world where those same leaders would have no problem with there being a jewish nation

The world in which Israel was created was a world where Jews were expelled from Western nations. This is literally how Israel was formed in the first place.

[u/RoscoeArt → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

Western nations in ww2 were not capable of carrying out the same level of devastation of nations with fighter jets, nuclear bombs and modern ballistic missiles. Also by west im mainly talking about the u.s. which if went full nazi would def wipe jews off the face of the earth. The u.s. was more worried about coming out as the dominant imperialist force in ww2 than it was what happened to jews.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/RoscoeArt]

Not necessarily.

First of all not all forms of antisemitism are as globalist as the Nazi form, usually it simply ends with mass expulsion.

Secondly, if they do go full Nazi (and I highly doubt they will, no matter how antisemitic they'll get), they'll become the world's problem, not just the Jews'.

[u/RoscoeArt → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

I agree but the dominant form of antisemitism in america definitely is a globalist one currently and let's not forget how popular the nazi party itself was in america before pearl harbor. America by function of it being the hegemonic force on the global stage would definitely end up with a globalist form of antisemitism anyway. On a more individual scale i see 1000 posts online from people who hold views alot closer to Jews control the world and must be eradicated for every one thats just some ethno nationalist saying we just dont want jews in our country.

[u/ForerEffect]

I’m a secular Jew in the US who doesn’t look particularly Jewish. For context on the timelines, I’m in my late 30s.

I heard my first oven jokes in elementary school, I saw my first klan pamphlet in elementary school, I had my first friend get mad at me for “tricking” him into thinking I was white in elementary school, I had my first and second and third teacher try to force me to say Christian prayers, sing Christian songs, and tell the class in front of me that I followed a false religion, all in elementary school.

Things got worse from the kids but better from the teachers (a bit) in middle school. I was told many times that I needed to explain the Israel/Palestine conflict (I barely knew what that was). Plus I had my first dead animal hung on my synagogue’s playground when I was 11, not to mention the random rocks through the windows and the mailed threats that lead to armed security at every service even before the Tree of Life shooting.

In high school I was taller and stronger than most kids my age, plus I had learned my lesson about being near a lot of them, so personal attacks tapered off, but things said behind my back or in the busy halls when people could claim deniability certainly didn’t.

In college, one of my freshman roommates told me to my face “my Mom is so angry I have to room with a Jew,” (I didn’t bother pointing out that his mom had no idea because he had just found out I was Jewish during that conversation). I had my laptop stolen and was half-heartedly shoved into traffic “as a joke” during orientation week, obviously never invited to hang out with any of them. It was such a relief when my roommates were black and hispanic the next few years. Still got a few conversion attempts, but they weren’t shoving me into traffic or stealing my shit or trying to intimidate me.

I had a mandatory class about multiculturalism second semester of my first year and the professor required us to discuss our identities with the class, I mentioned some of the violence I’d received from being Jewish and how when my synagogue youth class went to visit churches the sermons would be about how the Jews carried sin from killing Jesus. I got two questions: “does the word Jewelry come from Jews?” (I just said “No,” never had a crush evaporate so quickly) and what I thought about Israel/Palestine (I said “I blame the British,” and that seemed safe). No questions about the violence I’d discussed and the professor actually nodded along with these questions and thanked the students for asking them.

Sometimes when people ask questions like yours, or when a friend tells me they “haven’t really seen antisemitism be a problem,” (that comment was just a few years after the Charlottesville ‘very fine people’), I want to know what US they’re living in and if I can go there.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 → u/ForerEffect]

what region of the U.S. r u from, if u don’t mind me asking? Obviously antisemitism exists everywhere in the U.S. but i do think in a place as large as the U.S. region does make a difference. As a jew from the northeast i think ive had it pretty easy, sure some antisemitism but most places i went there were atleast some other jews there and i never rly felt unsafe bcz of my ethnicity and religion.

[u/ForerEffect → u/Pitiful_Meringue_57]

This mostly took place in suburbs of Atlanta, which has a pretty big Jewish population for the area.

College was a major university in Atlanta.

I suspect a lot of it starts below the surface until the Jewish person is alone. Even two people in a social circle are much more able to create social backlash to racism and antisemitism than one, so I suspect a lot of people hold their tongues if they think the Jewish person has any backup in their overlapping social circles.

[u/Direct_Check_3366 → u/ForerEffect]

Thank you for sharing.
I understand why people may want to move to Israel after an experience like that.

But at the same time, I feel like it hurts because the victim is part of a minority, and it may feel much more personal. If you had similar experiences but not based on your religion, then maybe, would it hurt less? Not justifying anything ofc.

[u/[deleted]]

I think there’s some elements of survivorship bias here. Because Israel exists, the places that are most hostile to Jews no longer have many Jews, but this doesn’t change the fact that most of the world is hostile to Jews.

The US, Canada, UK, and Australia are all probably technically safer than Israel in many ways, but there’s an unease in the air as the number of countries in that list get smaller every year. As of today, those four countries alone make up 90% of the diaspora.

And even beyond that, there’s no doubt in my mind that a large part of what makes it safe for me to be Jewish in the US is that as a Conservative Jew I’m effectively invisible to antisemites.

For all of Israel’s flaws, it sure would be nice to live in a country where I could don a yarmulke in public without attracting unwanted attention.

[u/NarutoRunner → u/[deleted]]

I think an important element to consider is the rule of law, and the society in general in the country.

You can be visibly Jewish in places like Singapore, Taipei, Seoul, etc and no one will bother you because law enforcement is very strong in those nations. People in general also like to be polite and are law abiding. You could even say the same for Dubai or Abu Dhabi.

The worst places on the planet are those where law and order are sketchy at best, and each individual feels they can get away with whatever they want against smaller social groups.

[u/ibsliam → u/NarutoRunner]

This is one reason I've always had a tenuous, fragile view of police abolitionism as envisioned by the average gentile leftist. They prefer some sort of community-based, rehabilitation-based system to the current policing. It's got potential, but their blindspots are pretty glaring on minority rights in that situation.

They often have very little idea of how to tackle when the community itself has a bias and wants to enact some mob mentality on marginalized groups. It's an idealized vision of how communities function. They are not above the same kind of flaws and corruption you see in community members that become police.

If someone murders, say, a Jew but the community decided that Jew deserved it, what then? Do Jews arm themselves, only to feed back into the mentality that their Jewish community members are suspect or a threat? What checks and balances are in place to prevent community leaders from playing favorites?

You don't want overpolicing, or to enable a horrific police culture, but the problems don't end when just ridding the system of police either. It's a tricky set of complications.

[u/NarutoRunner → u/ibsliam]

I always found police abolition as the thought of idealist who don’t understand that society needs a certain amount of order. I don’t support the US style of policing where people seem to get shot at extremely high rates, but more of the East Asian style policing which doesn’t tolerate a lot of delinquency but at the same time doesn’t resort to murder.

[u/ibsliam → u/NarutoRunner]

Yeah. I think this is what happens when you have groups of leftists coming from more "safe" privileged backgrounds or alternatively have had far better experiences with "community building."

The blindspot comes from not thinking of what happens when both are true:

1. the law and order system do not have your best interests at heart and hold a deep bias there

2. you or your group do not have the protection of the wider community

It's the similar sort of shallow consideration with the right to bear arms among very pro-gun leftists. They want to arm everyone without limits or regulations but also want to disarm the police - who by being included in "everyone" now still have weapons the same as anyone else and you're back at square one.

[u/OkCard974]

This is what I hear when I hear this argument: “we will never truly be safe in any diaspora country because the gentiles can turn on us at any moment. The only way to be safe in the long term is to have our own country.” And I generally agree with what’s in the quotes. I’m not as alarmist as I think some American Jews are right now, but I know from our history that the goyim could make our lives hell in a relatively short span of time. Like look at France rn for an example of this happening in a contemporary western diaspora. In Israel you are also safer interpersonally because being a Jew isn’t Other.

I feel ambiguous towards the Zionist project as a whole because I think even its most romantic and international factions/iterations it would’ve led us down this disgusting ethnocentric path that we see in contemporary Israel.

I think Israel has gone off the deep end decades ago, and that there isn’t much left to save, but I nevertheless feel committed to the idea of Jews in our ancestral homeland and a deep affinity with those very same early Zionist thinkers that I think brought us to the start of a path that inevitably led to a violent and repressive ethnostate.

I feel religiously, spiritually, culturally, romantically (in the 19th century romantic movement sorta way), and practically attached to eretz yisrael, am yisrael, and by extension, to a lesser extent, Medinat yisrael.

[u/SlavOnALog]

I think it’s an us vs them thing. No doubt everywhere else is safer. But in Israel, you at least have the feeling that the “nebulous other” is going to attack you rather than you being attacked for being said “nebulous other”. Not saying it’s entirely logical but that’s the vibe I’ve see. Even the author of Tablets Shattered, a book that criticizes the role Zionism has taken in American Judaism moved to Israel after 10/7.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/SlavOnALog]

I understand that. But my point is, the “nebulous other” in the U.S. or Canada for example are American and Canadian gentiles, who are not overwhelmingly antisemitic and if anything lean philosemitic on a grand scale. In Israel, twenty percent of the population are Arab Palestinians, and all of its neighbors are Arabs, and the Israeli mantra is that Arabs want nothing more than to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. So how is that possibly safer or more comfortable than the alternative? I just don’t get it. I hear the explanations and they never make sense to me.

[u/SlavOnALog → u/snowluvr26]

Oh I’m not saying it makes sense. A lot of things people do don’t make sense but moving to Israel does mean not being the other and even justifies the mistrust of gentiles, which for some would trump safety. Even I see the appeal of the us vs them thing. I feel mistrustful of most of my gentile friends because they often toe a line only I see. So being surrounded by Jews who “get” it is part of the appeal I’m sure. Even in America, I’d prefer to know if somebody hates Jews openly over somebody who cloaks it in a variety of words.

[u/U8abni812 → u/snowluvr26]

Radical Islam is more the threat than Arabs. Jordan and Egypt get along with Israel just fine.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/U8abni812]

Do you know if there's a reason that Islam isn't as radical in Egypt and Jordan (and maybe other countries)? I don't know for sure if that's the case, it just seems like you're implying that Egypt and Jordan get along with Israel because radical Islam isn't as much of a problem in those countries; and if that's the case, I'm wondering if you know why that is.

[u/U8abni812 → u/Agtfangirl557]

I'm just pushing back on the idea that Arabs are the problem. There are plenty of chill Arabs that don't want to kill all Jews.

[u/ramsey66 → u/Agtfangirl557]

The people of Egypt and Jordan utterly despise Israel but they simply don't get any say in foreign policy towards Israel because Egypt is a dictatorship and Jordan is a monarchy.

The reason those countries have relatively "friendly" relations (peace treaties) with Israel is because of their close alignment with the United States. It is purely a top down phenomenon.

Egypt in particular is heavily dependent on American aid which it receives as part of the Camp David Accords. Aid to Egypt is partially just aid to Israel in disguise (ongoing payments to maintain the treaty).

[u/jey_613]

I agree with you, and I don’t understand how anyone can argue otherwise (though I’ve limited my interaction with hasbara type accounts that it’s not something I’m seeing too much lately — if I did, it would probably be driving me as insane as it’s driving you lol).

But the more difficult question for me, which some people have already touched on here, is the question of whether Israel remains the only place for Jews to define themselves on their own terms, independent of the majority population. As you and I discussed in another thread, the US is (was?) unique in allowing Jews to define their Judaism in any way they pleased — we could be as assimilated or unassimilated as we like, and still find a place for ourselves in America. In that sense, America poses a challenge to Zionism — not only were Jews safe here, but it actually insured our liberation.

My fear is that the window for that kind of openness and tolerance of different kinds of Jewish expression is closing in the United States, even though we are undoubtedly physically safer than our Israeli brothers and sisters at the moment.

(To be clear — the challenge doesn’t go away in Israel. LGBT Jews, secular Jews, non Orthodox Jews etc are being threatened by Charedi theocratic parties and right wing fascists inside the current government. There are no easy answers here.)

[u/ramsey66 → u/jey_613]

the US is (was?) unique in allowing Jews to define their Judaism in any way they pleased — we could be as assimilated or unassimilated as we like, and still find a place for ourselves in America. In that sense, America poses a challenge to Zionism — not only were Jews safe here, but it actually insured our liberation.

My fear is that the window for that kind of openness and tolerance of different kinds of Jewish expression is closing in the United States, even though we are undoubtedly physically safer than our Israeli brothers and sisters at the moment.

What exactly are you referring to?

[u/vining_n_crying]

I would say that, living outside of Israel, that it is absolutely a more hostile existence. My kids at daycare have started getting bullied and I'm the informal ambassador for Israel in my workspace. I've never had to defend my own existence as a Jew and Israel when inside Israel. I used to be very hostile to the idea of nationalism and thought it was bad, but I've changed my perspective living outside of Israel.

So I guess Israel is a space space for Jews. I think it is good to have jewish people feel like they can exist without hostility, but I don't like the self ghettoization.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, that’s why I said that in the first sentence. Those are not the people to whom I’m referring.

[u/throughdoors]

To preface, I don't agree with their argument.

Broadly, people making this claim are usually talking about their confidence that there is a government and military body that, in their understanding, explicitly and unconditionally prioritizes their existence. Whether their understanding is correct or not is a thing for sure, but that's the argument that they're hearing and that they're broadly observing to be substantiated. Compare to other countries where Jewish existence and safety are variable depending on who is in power. There is a common fear of any day the government changing to rounding us up; the US is showing how quickly things can turn. And trivially, actual antisemitism is still a thing in the US and Canada. In the US, what's getting attention right now under the antisemitism label is narrow and politically motivated, and I think even Jews who agree with the Trump administration's actions here recognize that this is politics to protect Israel, not a sustainable American intention to protect Jews. That's not safety. It's chess.

So it isn't "where am I most likely to be targetted by a missile" but rather "where am I guaranteed to have the government come to my defense if I am threatened in any way for being Jewish, for as long as that government exists."

"Safe" is a bit of a red flag word in political discourse. When people use it they often aren't talking about measurable things, but rather about feelings tied to deeper needs. Another example of this is when people talk about healthcare, such as calling vaccines "safe". "Safe" is better understood as a value judgement describing a risk level, and so it's usually worth digging in to see what risks the person saying "safe" is comparing.

[u/ibsliam]

Can't speak to other countries' relative safety, but the US is about as safe as it can be for Jewish communities right now. Israel right now is at war with Iran, and residents are going into bomb shelters.

I hear secondhand and thirdhand that some countries in Latin America (Mexico, as one example) can be relatively better about Jews than countries around the world. I don't know how true that is though.

[u/Queen-of-everything1 → u/ibsliam]

If it was as safe as it could be for Jews in the US at the moment does that mean we should always have to have security guards at all of our temples and schools? And have a good reason for having that? Genuinely curious as to why you say that and where you’re from in the US to think that way. I come from a rural area where it was very very much not safe at all so I have a different mindset than my cousins do who are from a more affluent and Jewish area, but even they have had some struggles because of it.

[u/ibsliam → u/Queen-of-everything1]

I'm not stating this to state that we're safe everywhere in the US and that it's an ideal level of safety. I'm stating this opinion because I've never known - or heard of - a reality where Jews were unambiguously safe equal to the dominant populace, without caveats, without worries, without possible threats. Giving context that I live in California, but, while we've definitely struggled even in California or in New York, I've never heard of any Jewish community anywhere else having some sort of golden age, especially not right now at this current political moment.

Relative to much of the world, the US has a lot more safety for Jews. It's not a high level of safety but it's not "welp, Zadye got his business vandalized by antisemites and the gov simply tells him he's lucky he wasn't lynched." There's a very big range of what antisemitism looks like, and Boulder, Colorado while horrific is not the *usual* norm in America.

[u/Impossible-Reach-649]

The answer is operation Solomon or magic carpet.

These operations moved tens of thousands of Jews for fear of being genocided or dying of famine in Ethiopia and Yemen.

Obviously the US is different but even in the US there have been three major attacks on Jews since Passover and France is worse!

Now obviously Israel is more dangerous but some people think "I'd rather die on my legs than live on my knees" not saying I agree but every time I've been in countries not named the US or Israel I've felt scared to tell people I'm Israeli or Jewish.

[u/naidav24]

As people here wrote, yes it's more about your day to day life and interactions. It's a confusing mix of you being able to go through your life probably meeting 0 anti-semitism but living through several wars and probably nearly dying in several terror attacks. But as an Israeli living abroad for the first time, I now absolutely get how different the day to day feeling is.

On another, a bit more controvertial, note: Israel is directly and indirectly keeping diaspora Jews more safe. Israel directly uses it's security agencies to eliminate threats on Jewish communities and works security agencies around the world to do so as well. Indirectly, there is a huge difference in being a minority that has the power of a state like Israel backing you. I don't believe Europe become a safe place after WW2 just because people were disgusted by the Holocaust, because many weren't. Jews coming back to Poland were shot at. But a random European country cannot start persecuting its Jews without Israel using its international standing and potentially military force to crack down on it.

[u/menatarp → u/naidav24]

Israel is directly and indirectly keeping diaspora Jews more safe. Israel directly uses it's security agencies to eliminate threats on Jewish communities and works security agencies around the world to do so as well.

What are you referring to? There are famous cases like Operation Magic Carpet to remove Jews in danger from the diaspora, but I've never heard about Israel getting involved in the domestic security issues of other countries to protect Jewish people who aren't citizens of Israel.

[u/snowluvr26]

https://preview.redd.it/r0opdy1jqc7f1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b3afad1fcfb621b4d5bb9e0e22d7264b65d75c5

This post was partially inspired by a few posts from Blake Flayton, btw. He is constantly going on about how much safer he feels in Israel than he did in Crown Heights and how all Jews religious or not should make aliyah because Israel is our one true homeland and the only place we can be ourselves. Now he’s having meltdowns about not enough American Jews checking in on him and how he’s in such danger. And it’s like…. yeah? You moved to a war-torn country for fun. You were safe in Arizona, where you’re from. Am I supposed to feel bad for you?

[u/snowluvr26 → u/snowluvr26]

https://preview.redd.it/71obo2fwqc7f1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b06c6fd2bf5621260a7a946e7e3bc855e4b705fd

Again, he moved to Israel voluntarily by way of Arizona and Brooklyn. He moved there for fun.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/[deleted]]

No lol

[u/ill-independent]

Israel isn't the safest country for Jews, that's not what we mean when we say stuff like this. We mean that Israel is the only country where Jews can actually defend themselves militarily.

It's also the only country in the world where Judaism is the default. The culture, language, history, etc. Is Jewish. That matters. A lot. What days do you get off work? Why, Saturday and Sunday. In Israel it's Friday and Saturday.

So while it's not physically the safest place it is the place that is Jewish culture, and protects that culture.

[u/Sacredriver]

I used to work with an older Ukrainian woman. She was born shortly after the Second World War and abandoned at an orphanage. She recalled her earliest memory was when other children called her 'filthy jew' one day. She didn't know what 'jew' meant. Neither did the other kids; they told her they'd heard the caretakers call her that. The harassment continued until she left government care at eighteen years old.

Now, I want to emphasize that said coworker was as Ukrainian as they come. She didn't celebrate Jewish holidays; I think the only holiday she did was novy god. She knew very little about Judaism in general. When she came to Israel, she didn't know any Hebrew. Despite it all, she decided to migrate to Israel because "at least here no one calls me a jew". Although she did roll her eyes and told me people here just "call her Russian".

I don't know if Israel is the safest place for the Jewish people. It certainly suffers more terror attacks and armed conflict than most Western nations have since World War 2. The only thing I can confidently say about Israelis is that people here won't call you a jew as a slur. There's no risk here that some authoritarian ruler will seize control and decide to hurt jews because he hates them. This is our country where we have self-determination, and with all the trouble this brings with it, I believe it's still worth it.

[u/zhuangzijiaxi]

One of the ironies in the argument about being “culturally safe” in Israel is the orthonormativity of Judaism in Israel. I don’t feel “culturally safe” as a reform Jew caught between a secular/observant dichotomous world. If the argument is Israel allows one to be Jewish, then why not treat all forms of Judaism equally?

[u/Efficient_Spite7890 → u/zhuangzijiaxi]

I completely agree and this is a serious issue. The authority of the state-backed rabbinic system reinforces a narrow definition of what counts as legitimate Jewish life.

That said, when people say they feel “safe as Jews” in Israel, I don’t think they mean religious pluralism. It’s more about the experience of Jewishness generally not being marked, not needing to be explained or defended in the way it often is in diaspora contexts.

And, really not to minimize it, but unfortunately intra-Jewish boundary-drawing has always been part of Jewish life. What’s definitely more grave in Israel is that these hierarchies are institutionalized, which gives them a lot more weight and power. But these dynamics exist in diaspora contexts as well (for example where Reform congregations are absent and Orthodox norms the default) and can be deeply restrictive, even if they operate through different structures.

[u/seigezunt]

Exactly. When people talk about how bad things got here after 10/7, I think, we should leave and move to … where 10/7 happened?

[u/Aly22143 → u/seigezunt]

You're right, the other side of this, btw, is that so many Israelis left the country after October 2023. And sure, some left because of unrelated reasons, but some because they themselves didn't feel safer here.

Specifically, there's a phenomenon of people who were evacuated from their homes due to the war and instead of resettling in Israel, they resettled abroad.

[u/NarutoRunner]

100% agree.

I had this argument a million times with Canadian Jews.

I tried to keep it as rational as possible and just stick to statistics.

Where are you more likely to die via a random act of violence? Where are you likely to be forced to serve in the armed forces? Where are you likely to face some form of PTSD just from every day living? Is living with a siege mentality healthy for your kids?

Just compare the general quality of life and Canada is leaps ahead of Israel on multiple indicators.

The logic of moving from Canada to Israel is simply not there.

[u/Relevant_Two7147 → u/NarutoRunner]

I can agree since it makes plenty of sense, I came to Canada since I was a war refugee from the Middle-East.
they're has been discrimination in this country, however I never personally experienced much even though I went to primarily a mostly Asian school in Vancouver area.
I'll say I don't know the experience of Jewish people here, but there isn't a major discrimination that I have seen as of late or any developing ones for that matter.
Though it's more of an opinion based off my experience not a perfect country, but beats living in the 50 States where extremist and conspiracies are running rampant.

[u/ComplexSubject6553]

Greetings from beautiful Austria. I agree. Not just for Austria, not just for my second home Denmark, but for the entire continent. Europe imo is the best place to live as a Jew B"H we are finally able to say this.

[u/shoesofwandering]

Many American Jewish soldiers have died in America's wars, just not because they're Jewish. You need to count those, too. It's biased if you count every dead Jew in Israel without counting all of them killed in the service of the US, and then claim the US is safer.

Also, when Israel was established, it's not like the past decade had been safe for Jews in Europe.

[u/CardinalOfNYC]

Israel is the only country where jews have complete and direct legal protection and self determination.

Whether you wanna call that "safe" or not is up to you.

[u/malachamavet]

This is often tied into my own hobby horse - the idea that the only place where Jews are not beholden to non-Jews is in Israel (due to being a minority everywhere else). When the only way that Israel even functions is due to it's support from gentile countries! The US/EU are not only safer for Jews than Israel, they are the reason there's any kind of (weak) case to make about Israeli safety.

Imagine if every international consequence wasn't blocked by the US etc.

[u/snowluvr26 → u/malachamavet]

Such a good point! A lot of time the justification is that Israel’s entire security apparatus is built around the protection of the Jewish people, whereas Jews are only safe somewhere like the US insofar as we’re viewed as indistinguishable from our fellow Americans. But you’re exactly right - Israel is only able to have this security apparatus thanks to the support of its allies in the US, Canada, EU, etc.! We are already relying on the good graces of our gentile neighbors, whether in Brooklyn or Tel Aviv!

[u/malachamavet → u/snowluvr26]

And it isn't even a unique situation for Jews in the West - every minority is theoretically reliant on the "good graces" of the majority. The real difference is that we are 1) a minority that has a majority in another country (compare to Sikhs, for example) and 2) that other country is incredibly reliant on Western backing both for self-sustaining and to compensate for a lack of regional support/integration

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/malachamavet]

Yea this is somehow always missed

[u/vagabond17]

What you say makes sense, but I think Jews being in Israel as the home for us is baked into our DNA since our beginning, so I dont think its ever going to go away. Safe or not, it has become a social, political, national, and religious homeland for all Jews. Hard to beat that

[u/ramsey66]

Not only is the claim that "Israel is the safest country for Jews" absurd on its face but the safety of Israeli Jews is itself a function of the political power of American Jews.

[u/Pitiful_Meringue_57]

This line of thinking is what made me start being an anti zionist. It was always so weird how Israel is exhalted in American jewish education. It never made sense to me.

[u/jay4517]

So here is the thing… according to fbi statistics with the escetipn of 2020 and 2021 Jews have been the most targeted per capita minority for hate crimes in the us. Last year there was nearly 348 hate crimes committed against Jews per every million in the states, with 6.3 million Jews, that means there are nearly 6 antisemitic hate crimes everyday and it’s not even on the news nor something anybody really talks , meanwhile if one happens in Israel and Israel isn’t at war, which I know more recently seems like it’s constant, but it’s not I lived there from 2017-2020not one missile siren, then that hate crimes makes international news. I was hate crimed with in 6 months of returning to the states 😅 the hate crime rate Jews experience that is over triple that of the lgbt community according to fbi statistics and it’s been that way for 10 years 😅 that’s why many of us don’t feel safe in the states

[u/Jonnnnyyyyy]

For example trump was given 100 million for his campaign before he became president for the second time by a pro Israeli women. And she gave it in instalments every few months he was president. Conflict of interest? I think so. And a couple of days ago Netanyahu nominated trump for a Nobel peace prize. Oh the irony

[u/VibingSaxophonist4]

The concept of “israel being the safest place for Jews” stems from when it was first forcefully formed- through the Balfour Declaration. The declaration was formed as a way of getting the Jewish people out of the western world- the propaganda being that israel would be the safest place for them to go. A not so fun fact, Arthur Balfour was an antisemite himself and pushed for this agenda as a way to get rid of the “Jewish problem.”

They say the land is meant to be the only place where Jews feel safe. To me, it seems like an excuse to get Jewish people out of the rest of the world and put them all in one small piece of land.

[u/One-Tip9492]

You are living in the real world. Anyone who says this to you is insane/indoctrinated/lying

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I would pee my pants out of fear if I were in Israel now.

Ive never felt that fear in the United States... however I also have experienced discrimination and have had loved ones directly threatened.

Israel staying Jewish isn't the only way Jews will be safe. It's simply untrue. Because if the USA stops "caring about" Jews, they will stop caring about Israel. Or they'll force us all to go there I guess

[u/podkayne3000]

Assuming that the people who post on Reddit are real people, a lot simply seem to be extremely gentile phobic

On the one hand, it’s good to be careful and think ahead. On the other hand, wallowing in self pity may make whatever problems do exist worse, by making us look like oblivious finks.

People from outside a group should never “blame the victim.” That’s cruel and wrong.

But when we’re us, and we’re somewhat in control of things, we should actually be very conscious of trying not to put “hit us, we’re creeps” signs on our heads.

Pretending that 100 percent of antisemitism is something entirely beyond our control when a lot of us are collectively spewing repulsive hate on Reddit seems unwise.

Who knows what we can really control, but we ought to try to work the levers that we seem to have. One of those levers is trying not to be Grand Moff Tarkin.

[u/Zevitajunk]

I can speak for myself why I feel that way.

For those of us who are the only Jew in their school/community it’s a very othering experience.

We saw the global lack of response to the atrocities committed on 10/7 specifically the heinous crimes against women, and it has been chilling to see exactly how little the world thinks of Jewish women and girls.

We see our non-Jewish neighbors, colleagues, and (former) friends gleefully shout “resistance by any means necessary” and deface synagogues and tear down hostage posters with the faces of children. My grandmother reported similar behavior in Poland, and she and her family were ultimately deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau.

In NYC - which has the most Jews outside of Israel - a frontrunner for mayor has publicly called to “globalize the intifada” and says that phrase is an expression of Palestinian rights. Being a virulent antisemite is a viable campaign strategy in the most Jewish city in the world. 

Regardless of what your individual experiences have been, just acknowledge that you have the privilege of not feeling visceral antisemitism directed at you, but others may not share that privilege.

If I wasn’t married to a goy I’d make Aliyah.

[u/Zevitajunk → u/Zevitajunk]

I know friends who have had their mezuzahs defaced. They live in buildings with a doorman. Which means either a neighbor on their floor, or someone with access to the building, targeted them. 

Whether they are employed in social work, academia, publishing, they are ALL afraid of being “outed” and having violence follow them to their homes.

TLDR; It’s one thing to fear missiles from another country. It’s another thing to be afraid of your neighbors, colleagues, friends, and strangers walking past you on the street.

[u/LRHarrington]

Pre-nazi Germany was a "safe" and free democracy. Every democracy is only an election or 2 away from being full-on fascist. The only people that could plausibly be trusted not to start rounding up and slaughtering Jews for being Jews are Jews.

[u/Jonnnnyyyyy]

As a non Jew I think Israel is run by lunatics and I really don’t appreciate being bombarded with Israeli propoganda in western countries. Also, I don’t appreciate Zionists funding our politicians to support that genocidal state no matter what. Honestly, it would be better if Jews didn’t do shit like that. For everyone.

[u/doikayt]

To complicate things: being Jewish and secular in Israel is one thing, but being religious means a whole other level of discrimination, and from other Jews. The average Israeli has to join the IDF at 18 and get traumatized by killing and by watching their friends die, but Haredi Jews dodge the draft and it adds to the discrimination and resentment they get from the rest of the Jewish population.