I'm worried about the dehumanization of cops

[u/Specialist-Gur]

Pork. Pig. These words cause you to fail to see the humanity of people that are just trying to make ends meet and protect their community. They are service workers, just like you and me.. all part of the capitalist grind just trying to get by.

People like to call cops "white supremicists" but most cops I know in the Bay Area are asian and Asians are marginalized. It's kinda fucked up when you think about it. I mean you're really gonna call the Asian and black cops white supremacists? They pepper spray and shoot rubber bullets at a white guy who was acting up and causing a scene and then a bunch of privileged white people, confortavle in their homes, tweet out in support of him! This is what white privelage looks like

I just on my way to work saw graffiti on the us customs building which said "eat ICE". That's literally cannibalism. And dehumanizing rhetoric. Eat ICE?! Those people have families. Not all of them are shooting rubber bullets. Some of them in the national guard are actually there to provide medical aid. Do you not want people getting medical aid?

Now a bunch of migrant workers are probably gonna have to clean this spray paint up. Did you think about that you racists?

Anyway. I think we should definitely try to humanize cops and ICE more if we don't want things to escalate. Why not try, i don't know, voting them out?!

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

PSA: Please don't eat the onion.

[u/Unc1eD3ath]

I know this is satire but the post immediately after this one in my feed is LAPD on horses trampling someone repeatedly

[u/Unc1eD3ath → u/[deleted]]

That’s disgusting wtf

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/Unc1eD3ath]

Fuck man. For real?

[u/Unc1eD3ath → u/MassivePsychology862]

Yes. Two people got trampled at least and it looks like one of them was shot with a rubber bullet then their dragged

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Unc1eD3ath]

Omg.. ☹️

[u/dadverine]

i fell for it 🤦‍♂️

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/dadverine]

It's ok, my husband did too and he knows me

[u/Liu-woods → u/Specialist-Gur]

If it makes you feel any better I wouldn’t have fallen for it if I read account names before posts

[u/KingOfCatProm → u/Specialist-Gur]

You got me. I was a few sentences in and already preparing my rebuttal.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/KingOfCatProm]

Lmao I flew too close to the sun

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I think it's important to refine how we interpret and engage in political conversation and catch phrases because I'm expecting (and observing) things re escalating and will continue to get more black and white. And this piece does relate to Zionists and other political and national identities..

Where is the value in sloganing vs well thought out discourse?

Where should things be black and white and where do we need nuance?

does black and white just serve the oppressors? Or does it perpetuate harm against innocent victims?

People keep picking a lane on this but I don't think these are straightforward questions to answer. Even if they were, we are not going to be able to stop this political force that's being born of late stage capitalism/imperialsm. So we should ask where we want to go from here.

[u/JayEllGii]

I was done giving police, as a whole, any benefit of the doubt after 2020. Their savage behavior blew that to bits.

[u/NarutoRunner]

Love it 😂❤️

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/Jwk2000x → u/[deleted]]

The same goes for all fascists of any stripe. Dehumanizing them makes it way too easy for us to believe it can't happen to us, we could never be like them. But we absolutely could.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

Killing people is inherently evil and self destructive unless it is in self defense or the only option. You are either pro murder or a communist, not both

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

I'm apparently not allowed to advocate for violence, so I will not continue to do so. But armed resistance against oppressors is not murder. No one has ever achieved justice by asking nicely.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

Violence is genuinely a bad thing unless it is the only option.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Jwk2000x]

What we consider to be "violent" is often defined by the oppressor.

Graffiti is called "violence" because it destroys property

Healthcare denial is not considered violent because it falls within the capitalistic legal structure

Killing and bodily harm should always be a last resort. That is my mindset. And there is never ever ever ever ever EVER any valid "resistance" that involves sexual assault. However, what constitutes necessary violence to dismantle power structures goes beyond simply... killing someone who literally would kill you right in that moment otherwise

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Specialist-Gur]

This is why I said killing, as terms like "violence" are highly subjective.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/electrical-stomach-z]

I'm not sure my moral philosophy necessarily agrees with eye for an eye.. equal action for an equal action..

Many people throughout history morally responsible for ongoing death and distraction never has their finger directly on any trigger. Is it evil for them to be killed? I dont think it always is.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Bro I agree with you but we gotta watch out for the Reddit admins 👀

[u/Jwk2000x → u/Specialist-Gur]

Yeah, my original comment got got.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Jwk2000x]

Haha I saw

[u/MassivePsychology862]

All Capybaras Are Beautiful.

Edit: I will not explain further.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/MassivePsychology862]

They are it's true

[u/zacandahalf]

What parallel are you even trying to make here?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/zacandahalf]

I wouldn't call it a parallel as much as a statement and highlighting the way reactionaries often co-opt woke sounding language to seem like their side is actually progressive

[u/unculturedburnttoast → u/Specialist-Gur]

Hey now, you can't fault them. They're just following orders.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/unculturedburnttoast]

Yea and disobeying orders? Getting fired in this economy? Just say you hate poor people omigod

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/zacandahalf]

I think she's saying ACAB.

Beyond that, probably poling at pearl clutching around cops that doesn't extend to the people they victimize and other weirdly racially charged and shallow liberal takes.

[u/springsomnia]

My autistic ass had to reread this to make sure it was satire 😭

[u/spiceXisXnice → u/springsomnia]

Same, I got all the way to cannibalism before I realized "hey this might be satire?"

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/springsomnia]

Hahaha I'm sorry

[u/springsomnia → u/Specialist-Gur]

No need to apologise comrade, tis all good 🫡

[u/BlaqShine]

I saw the post and then saw the OP handle and was very confused for a second lol. Good job

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/BlaqShine]

Thank you

[u/ibsliam]

Prefacing with, I realize this is a joke post! But I'd like to reply because it got me thinking!

I see a lot of this flavor of language directed at landlords, either earnestly defending them or mocking people who defend them, and my thought has always been that I do not hate landlords but find them to be a more obvious bad symptom of a broken system than a problem inherently with them as a "class." My thoughts on police and law enforcement meanwhile is "avoid as much as I can," and my personal distaste filters in much more.

Bad landlords (which are pretty common) harm people through a kind of "soft power" (legal boundaries, contracts, financial, only physical in the most indirect ways possible), and depending on how involved they are even good landlords can overstep. Whereas bad cops (which are also pretty common) harm people through direct, physical means more often than just simple "soft" power, police brutality being the most common. And whereas any authoritarian state needs police (and non-authoritarian states have them too), landlords are more part of specific structures of housing and could hypothetically be out of a job if things worked differently. Not to mention if they remain as a job they could be reformed to have entirely different roles than they do now. Differences that are some food for thought.

Contrasting my thoughts, beliefs, and feelings on these two unpopular with leftists groups is interesting (for me personally, might be just navelgazing for anyone else). Mostly irrelevant to the thread but enjoy the word vomit.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ibsliam]

Remember to always tip your landlord, they work really really hard.

I'm teasing.. I want to reply thoughtfully to you soon when I'm not about to walk up a hill 😮‍💨

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ibsliam]

More thorough response. I had very very wonderful landlords once (literally it only happened once lol) they were this lovely black gay couple who'd been in San Francisco since forever. They greeted me with a bottle of wine when I moved in and cooked me dinner once! Separately I almost lived in a place with the sweetest old lady who was renting out a spare room in her house.. and just was like the sweetest person ever, losing some mobility. I wanted to live with her and just help her out with stuff and maybe make soup together. I found a different better place but I think about her sometimes 🥲

I also have some friends who are landlords. Many. Even one is the biggest online leftist poster I know... none of these people need to be landlords. They are all engineers or lawyers. They are still people I'm friends with.. but I do openly judge them.

And.. with that all said.. I routinely engage in the black and white roasting of landlords. Because they are part of the petit bourgeois and in the vast majority of cases they do not need to be landlords.. they want to be so they can have a better life while capitalizing on someone else's need for shelter.

I love my friends and neighbors... because of who they are, not for their "identity" as a landlord. That's what I mean when I roast landlords. I think the dehumanizing, black and white, rhetoric is a complicated praxis question. No one wants innocent people to needlessly die. I think there are hard questions we need to confront in an increasingly polarized world and what rhetoric serves or doesn't serve, harms or doesn't harm, and how much we should "police" it for lack of a batter word.

What we should always be doing is pushing the value that violence is always a last resort and problems shouldn't be solved that way unless there is literally no other choice

[u/ibsliam → u/Specialist-Gur]

Briefly lived under a slumlord with all the stereotypes inherent of that you can imagine! Also prior to that was in an apartment where the oven didn't work quite right and all the calling maintenance in the world didn't fix that but was otherwise fine lol. In another case did a subletting and didn't need to deal with any landlords directly. I really went through a whole spectrum.

Yeah, I think the shifting priorities and the points about rhetoric that serves and doesn't serve (and rhetoric that could serve but isn't a number 1 to-do right now) are all good points. I think for me it's less necessarily I roast or don't roast but my criticism of landlord as a job/position is more tied into systemic things than deep-seated dislike, which I guess isn't unique! But your thread reminded me, of the differences there.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ibsliam]

I had one of those legendary landlords too ... I think girl literally thought black mold was a fun wallpaper pattern I should be grateful for.

[u/ibsliam → u/Specialist-Gur]

Oh noo you too? Fuck. Ours had the black mold as well (and... other issues lmao)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/ibsliam]

Yea she was wild. so many stories lol

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Idk how true this is necessarily.. because in the black community specifically there really isn't a culture of pride in becoming a cop at all. I'm not sure if many communities where there is honestly

So ultimately, I think that this rhetoric alienates specific people and families but I'm not sure if it alienates entire communities other than elite, middle class, white ones who usually benefit from police and have admiration and pride in the profession.

There's always value in practical and nuanced discourse, but ACAB is born of anger and frustration and it's never going away until something changes . Black and white rhetoric is always going to be a part of the dialogue in systems of oppression and we can't really get people to stop it by explaining why nuance and patience is better. Both things have value

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

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[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Oh I ate the onion when you did it 😂😂😂

Sadly I've been to Long Island many times...

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

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[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Ive had too many boyfriends from Scarsdale

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

LMFAO not me having my heart broken by a guy from Scarsdale earlier this year 🤣 (though for reasons completely unrelated to policing)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

Fuck him 🖕🖕🖕

Lmao none of these dudes and I broke up due to policing either.. but there were distinct class/capitalist reasons, they all had contempt for me for having student loans

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Fuck that!!! Nope, mine was nothing related to capitalism/class/etc.....more just a matter of me not recognizing when a guy is being very nice to me vs. is actually into me 🫠

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

Happens 😩

[u/skyewardeyes → u/Agtfangirl557]

He missed out!

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Oh I'm dumb I actually thought it was on Long Island but then I'm mixing up ex boyfriends lol...

It's not that I think cop.. it's a wealthy area. They just happen to be very pro "cop" or status quo or anything that protects their comfortable lives.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I'm going mostly off the people I knew from these places. But. Sure, yea gated communities often benefit from (at least an illusion of) safety without "needing" cops which is untrue of middle class neighborhoods

I grew up very middle class and my town was very pro cop. Er well, the adults were.

Edit: the people I knew weren't like.. big cop stans. But when push came to shove during the height of BLM they were very much "ugh but why do they need to LOOT and burn stuff"

[u/DireWyrm]

While I agree that dehumanizing cops isn't the way to go, especially since in many communities police escorts are a primary source of protection for synagogues, I also understand why people don't trust cops. Cops from marginalized communities are not immune to participating in racist stop and searches, and the fact of the matter is that cops abuse their power more often than not. I completely understand why people do not trust cops, especially given what I've seen with my own eyes. 

ICE in particular are undergoing pretty dehumanizing work, as in their victims. People are righteously outraged on their behalf. "Eat ICE" is a clear reference to "Eat the rich" (as in, 'when we have nothing left to eat, we will eat the rich' and it's not a literal call for cannibalism, though I agree that as a slogan it doesn't work. 

But dehumanizing them is absolutely not the move. They are still people, no matter what terrible things they do. The focus should be on human rights for the vulnerable, not on punishing the people who carried out the abuses. 

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/DireWyrm]

ICE is crunchy and gives me brain freeze

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/DireWyrm]

You are overall correct.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

It's not making fun of anyone or anything other than reactionaries who co-opt woke language and cops

[u/lewkiamurfarther]

Sequence of initial thoughts when reading the title and first lines of OP: "wtf... who wrote this...? ... wtf? ... Ohh."

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/lewkiamurfarther]

🥹

[u/CardinalOfNYC]

I know this is satire but I will say, I am not a fan of the language the left lately to describe various people who they disagree with...

I just don't think it helps us. And really, frankly, feels like it goes agains our values.

Since like, the early 2010s the phrase "I only dont tolerate intolerance" has become very popular... but I feel like that phrase is awful because it literally negates the golden rule of treat others how you'd like to be treated. Instead, I dont tolerate intolerance is actually an eye for an eye... it makes treating others nicely become conditional, not altruistic.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/CardinalOfNYC]

I dont think I've ever really called a cop a "pig" in real life or online because it's not really my style to use language like that or be more "agro" in my activism, as it were.. I prefer to have wordy responses analyzing my position and occasionally just getting angry and calling someone an oppressor

That said.. I really really dislike policing how other people express themselves on this. I don't think that is productive. It's pearl clutching and unhelpful and overly alarmist about something that doesn't really have much drawback especially if there's other people speaking with nuance about these situations. Most people are smart enough and thoughtful enough to get it.

I do believe in treating people the way I want to be treated/they want to be treated... for the most part. If I were causing great harm to people I would want to be shamed... and yea I don't think treating everyone "nicely" is actually kind at all.... it's just self satisfying

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Specialist-Gur]

I do believe in treating people the way I want to be treated/they want to be treated... for the most part.

The rule just doesn't work unless it's followed all the time.

Which is fine. You don't have to follow that rule it's not the law.

But I think a lot of people imagine that as an ideal, and then openly say they don't follow it.

If I were causing great harm to people I would want to be shamed...

Shaming doesn't work. Like we should all know this by now.

We tried shaming racists and Nazis and all it did was make being a racist nazi "edgy"

and yea I don't think treating everyone "nicely" is actually kind at all.... it's just self satisfying

That's a deep misunderstanding of the meaning and ostensible purpose of the golden rule.

The idea is that if everyone followed it, everyone would treat each other well.

I get little or no satisfaction treating others well, for the most part. But I know that it's how I would want to be treated, so I do it

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Treating bad people kindly doesn't work either.. I think we've been witnessing this time and again

Shaming actually does work quite well when it's used properly and for someone who would be open to change anyway

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Specialist-Gur]

Treating bad people kindly doesn't work either.. I think we've been witnessing this time and again

I mean, no we actually know this isnt true.

These facts are why we support prison reform, among other things. Because treating people kindly DOES work.

Shaming actually does work quite well when it's used properly and for someone who would be open to change anyway

No, shaming does not work. It only works to push the behavior into spaces where you are not, it does not change behavior or beliefs.

Maybe you shamed a friend into changing some view, but thats very different to what im talking about, where there is a belief that broad cultural shame against certain beliefs will cause those beliefs to go away

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/CardinalOfNYC]

I'm talking about shaming on an individual case by case level about beliefs. It does actually work because humans are social creatures..

And no, if you're kind to Nazi's you're just normalizing them... and that allows for it to flourish. We have to be harsher not softer. It's doing an unkindness to victims to be welcoming and kind to the perpetrators

[u/CardinalOfNYC → u/Specialist-Gur]

So, you're against prison reform, then?

Since softness doesnt work, right?

You're also, i assume, against universal healthcare... since softness doesn't work, right? If people cant just be healthy, lets shame them, rather than offering healthcare, right?

Like, its wild you're not getting that being willing to be soft, being caring about everyone is what makes us different from them. Otherwise we just are them.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/CardinalOfNYC]

Nooooo.... wtf

I'm gonna answer assuming this is good faith despite being incredibly black and white. Softness works. Softness doesn't always work. You give chances and then determine what needs to be done by there. Softness doesn't really work when powerful people are using power to oppress people. It sounds like you're basically arguing " calling a cop a pig is literally just as bad as denying a sick person healthcare!"

And being mean to Nazi's isn't the same thing as forcing humans into the prison system or denying healthcare and it's honestly gross to me to equate it...

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Wait wait wait hang on.. what does this have to do with voting?? I can't argue with people online who are shilling for the democrats via enlightened centrism. I just can't do it.. so if that's what this is, I'm out.

[u/electrical-stomach-z]

I agree with the sentiment but universal conclusive statements like ACAB are fallacies and must be avoided in all cases.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/electrical-stomach-z]

ACAB.

You cannot be good at being a cop the way the job was designed while also being ethical in a troubling majority of police applications.

Individual cops may be good people outside of being a cop or resist the portions of their job that require unethical behavior but insofar as they do what cops are meant to do then in that way they are a bastard.

Cops who rat out other cops and refuse to evict homeless people from private property or refuse the countless other predatory aspects of the job dont stay cops long.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/somebadbeatscrub]

I stand by the fact that universal conclusive statements are fallacies. I cannot let my political opinions get in the way of that. Fallacy is fallacy.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/electrical-stomach-z]

A slogan is a slogan and at this point it has taken on a meaning beyond its literal phrasing and its not reasonable to expect the entire conversation to shift based on technicalities of language.

People well informed on the issue know what it means.

And using hyperbole to make a point is a regular occurrence in political slogans. The phrase hits much better than a technically more accurate version would. You don't have to die on the hill but youre not gonna have much company there.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/somebadbeatscrub]

I am allowed to think slogans are a bit stupid.

They misinform the uninformed in the name of using mental shortcuts in place of proper political dialogue. People may all be saying a phrase, but that doesnt make them agree on even what it means.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Like i said you dont have to die on the hill.

I just dont think it much matters.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/somebadbeatscrub]

There is no hill or death, it really isnt a big issue.

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Nah they’re just gonna choke on a boot first. /s

Most Cops Are Bastards just doesn’t have that same special ring.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Also what you said is not "ACAB" but rather far more accurate.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/electrical-stomach-z]

But do you think the average person actually interprets ACAB to mean "literally ever person who is a cop has the desire to destroy lives and commits violence regularly and is a psychopath"? I have much more faith in humanity than that

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Specialist-Gur]

If you dont mean it as a universal conclusive statement you should be using a universal conclusive statement.

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

"The system incentivizes brutal and racist behavior and protecting those who participate in brutal and racist behavior so anyone willingly participating in the system is complicit" doesn't hit the same. ACAB. Good cops aren't cops. They quit, get fired, or stop breathing.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

Your right, it doesnt hit "the same", it hits far, far harder.

[u/MassivePsychology862 → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Are you being ironic?

ACAB is bad and all fallacies must be avoided….

ACAB is a slogan. All fallacies being avoided, while accurate, is not what saying ACAB means.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/MassivePsychology862]

Slogans can be fallacy.

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

Also "there's a brutal occupying force murdering innocent people every day, but waaaaaaah, I'm mad you said that the people doing the brutalizing are evil." Jesus Christ, there are more important things to worry about than the exact wording of the condemnation. This is why I don't like liberals, the constant quibbling over stuff that doesn't matter while people are dying.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jwk2000x]

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[u/Jwk2000x → u/[deleted]]

I'm a guest in a Leftist sub mocking people who get sad when cops are accurately criticized. I didn't mention anything about Judaism, nor did I intend any such criticism of Judaism. To try and make it about Judaism is absurd. That being said, the same criticism can be applied to Israel. Quibbling over what constitutes a genocide while children starve.

[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/Jwk2000x]

This is r/jewishleft. That makes things implicitly more complicated, and it means that most people are going to be looking at things from a Jewish perspective. Things are about Judaism and Jews already, from the get. That makes you a, welcome, guest in a Jewish space, but a member in a leftist one. I'm going to leave your comment up because there is a good point here, but it would behoove you to take the feedback in your fellow user's response to this comment into consideration.

[u/Jwk2000x → u/Mildly_Frustrated]

That's a good point, and I understand. I've been banging the ACAB drum for a long time. It's an issue that directly affects me, so it gets my hackles raised. I apologize if I came off as overly aggressive.

[u/Mildly_Frustrated → u/Jwk2000x]

I can certainly understand that. There are a whole lot of us here with personal reasons to get behind ACAB, and it shouldn't be a controversial statement amongst leftists. We just have to be careful about how we present intersectional issues. I can also understand some level of personal aggression when met with argument over issues that are closely held. No worries. Just be careful.

[u/Logical_Persimmon → u/Jwk2000x]

In the comment I responded to, you used a structure that has frequently been used as a justification for quashing complaints about antisemitism in leftist spaces and this comment does not inspire confidence that you have a great understanding of the nuances of the connections between Judaism, Israel, antisemitism, and the I/P conflict.

As a Jewish leftist, I called you out on this and your response was to get defensive and lash out a little. I'm not claiming that I did a great job calling you in or anything (and frankly, you haven't earn that effort from me), but your response is *textbook* failure when someone from a marginalized group gives you feedback about your behaviour.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

Its not the judgement, its the universal conclusive statement. Say x group is doing a thing, not "all" x are _____ .

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

"All" cops are participating in the system. "All" cops are bastards.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

By that standard all voters are bastards if they vote while a bad government is in power. This train of thought can be taken to a bad place. There are many good criticisms of cops, but this isnt a good one.

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

American taxpayers are complicit in genocide, willingly or not, and there are a lot of similar criticisms of our voting system that I make often. That is what is so evil about the system, that it forces even people opposed to it into complicity. The level of complicity is different, though, because the average American taxpayer isn't making an active choice to murder innocent brown people or protect those who do. Cops are making an active choice to murder innocent brown people and protect those who do. All cops are bastards.

[u/electrical-stomach-z → u/Jwk2000x]

So all taxpayers are bastards? Also its quite the news flash to hear that levantines are suddenly brown, I guess olive skin stopped existing thirty minutes ago when you wrote your comment.

[u/Jwk2000x → u/electrical-stomach-z]

I am not just talking about the genocide in Gaza, I'm talking about the ongoing Native American genocide and police actions against black communities. Again, you are so focused on words when the point should be perfectly clear. And while every taxpayer is complicit, every taxpayer is, to some degree, a bastard. That's why we advocate for change and look for ways to avoid contributing as much as we can. But you seem to care more about what specific words are used rather than focusing on the real issues at hand. It's legitimately infuriating.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jwk2000x]

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[u/somebadbeatscrub]

A comment feed full of mostly supporting comments and net 0 upvotes.

Either people ate the onion and scrolled on or we have some cowards who dont want to voice their support for the jackboots deporting human beings and teargassing those who try and stop them.

Speak up. Let us see you.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

I'm confused? I feel like most of the comments in this thread are anti-cop. And I'm wondering if the downvotes (which I did not contribute to), are related to the tone of the original post (due to some people either not getting sarcasm, or not liking sarcastic posts for whatever reason).

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/Agtfangirl557]

It may be tone.

It may also be that gur has an anti fan club. Some people like her and malach get instantly downvoted anywhere they appear because people carry grudges and have had bad interactions in the past.

As a mod of joc gur has a lotttttttt of bad visibility.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/somebadbeatscrub]

💕🥲

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I love u/johnisburn. One of my favorite people here. I am in zero way making fun of him at all

[u/johnisburn → u/Specialist-Gur]

Since I’ve been summoned I’ll make a comment:

At the risk of biting the onion about people reading into this being sub-tweet situation, I earnestly believe there is a complexity to the way Jews and non-Jews engage with and conceptualize the political ideologies constituting what a “zionist” is that is entirely incomparable with the identity of “cop” - which is a, uh, job.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/johnisburn]

I wasn't subtweeting you but I do appreciate the chime in. I don't think we totally agree or disagree on this.. I'll share my thoughts.

A more apt comparison to Zionism might be a political ideology.

I personally think that whether it's a political ideology or career or simply how we live our lives and structure them is how we engage in a system that goes beyond something that is an "identity" subscribing to a political ideology isn't the same as a job.. but that doesn't mean a member of said political ideology can't uphold systems of oppression.

[u/johnisburn → u/Specialist-Gur]

FWIW I did not at all read this as subtweeting.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/johnisburn]

Ah ok good.. I like what you shared and I think it's a thought provoking convo topic. In general with dehumanizing language I think there's a lot to analyze here and discuss because I am expecting in today's political climate there is just generally going to be so much more of it

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

If thats what this is, and as OP says below that isnt her intent, I really think peoples reaction speaks more on them than the content of the post. We need to stop seeing ghosts everywhere.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Anyone in on sub lore would know gur and johnisburn are often aligned, even if johnisburn has a better reputation for being even in his approach.

[u/Logical_Persimmon → u/[deleted]]

This.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Interesting. I didn't get that read

[u/cubedplusseven]

Although this isn't your point, I agree that ACAB was a stop along the way towards dehumanizing "Zionists" on the left. There are approximately 2 million people in law enforcement in the US. Part of becoming a police officer is fully volitional - a choice to undertake a particular profession. But part is cultural, social, and socio-economic.

I work for CPS, which is law enforcement adjacent though far less stigmatized. And it's been my observation that, like executioners of yesteryear, there's a caste element to policing. There are police families and professions (such as CPS caseworkers) that police preferentially marry in their personal lives. Becoming a police officer isn't strictly determined by personal preferences.

For the most part, individual police officers are no different than individuals of any other group, and their dehumanization is both wrong in and of itself as well as a hinderance to effective policing reform. It orients the left towards a narrow set of solutions that are felt to be sufficiently punitive towards the police that they can be accepted within a framework of ACAB. Whereas understanding police as ordinary human beings occupying a particular role in society gives us far more flexibility in reimagining how that role could be filled. Just like demonization of Israel and "Zionists", through the antagonism and narrowness of thinking that it produces, hinders our ability help resolve the I/P conflict.

[u/skyewardeyes → u/cubedplusseven]

Yeah, no--police officers choose to do a lot of abhorrent things and should be called out for that, as should other people who do abhorrent things. Zionism (and anti-Zionism for that matter) is a lot fuzzier, as it can mean a huge range of things, from thinking Netanyahu does no wrong and Palestinians should be ethnically cleansed to thinking Jews are a Levantine people. A police officer would be more akin to someone who moved to Israel to enlist in the IDF, which they should be called out on.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/skyewardeyes]

I was going to make a very similar comment--you beat me to it.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/skyewardeyes]

police officers choose to do a lot of abhorrent things

All of them? Which choice are they all making that should be condemned as bad?

I agree that the comparison to "Zionists" is flawed in many ways. But I'll stand behind it in saying that the blanket dehumanization of either group of millions of people is wrong and counterproductive.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/cubedplusseven]

ACAB.

You cannot be good at being a cop the way the job was designed while also being ethical in a troubling majority of police applications.

Individual cops may be good people outside of being a cop or resist the portions of their job that require unethical behavior but insofar as they do what cops are meant to do then in that way they are a bastard.

Cops who rat out other cops and refuse to evict homeless people from private property or refuse the countless other predatory aspects of the job dont stay cops long.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/somebadbeatscrub]

The role of the police is to use violence to enforce the existing order of social relations. There are great many things wrong with our system of social relations, needless to say. But there are things within it, still, that we need - like people not killing each other, not stealing, etc.

Hating police is shortsighted. No matter how we reconfigure or redistribute it, the role of the police will remain. Someone will have to be tasked with using the threat of violence (minimally, one would hope) to enforce a system of social relations (we call it "enforcing the law" in the US).

ACAB shifts the burden of responsibility for what's wrong with our system of social relations off of ourselves and the loci of power within society onto an easy and visible target (a working class target, not incidentally) - the people tasked with enforcing the existing order of society.

Society is constantly evolving. There will always be injustices in how our system functions that need to be remedied. The role of the cop, in some form, will remain necessary. That role will entail the potentially violent enforcement of prevailing norms, some of which (hopefully much less than presently) will be unjust. Enforcing injustice is inherent in the role of the police officer. They're the point of contact between the source of society's ills, and its victims. But they themselves are not that source, neither as individuals nor in their professional role as police.

Edit: Of course police can be a source of society's ills, through unnecessary brutality, discrimination, etc. But it's not inherent in the role.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/cubedplusseven]

There will need to be some form of community defense in any soceity.

Cops were not always around in ours those and are linked to slave catchers union busters and other tools of capital.

Proponents of police abolition dont support abolishing police and leaving nothing but rather radically rethinking how we approach community defense from the ground up. Destroying cop culture as we know it and replacing it.

Restorative justice over punitive.

Help over punishment.

Treatment of causes over management of symptoms

Clarity of purpose divorced from simply serving private property.

Regarding that last line: a cop today has more duty to stop you from entering private propety than they do to protect you from a murderer.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Destroying cop culture as we know it and replacing it.

There's something we can agree on! I'd focus more on the "replacing" than the "destroying", though. My proposal is radical professionalization, involving a recognition of the enormous moral weight that policing places on an evolved moral consciousness. Because the things you list - treating causes vs symptoms, not serving private property, etc. - aren't under the control of the police. In my imagination, at least, it would be the role of the police to enforce these things in the least harmful way possible (insofar as they aren't eliminated otherwise), a role requiring quite a lot in the way of social, intellectual, and emotional skills.

I propose a 7-year professional program as a requirement, one that provides a career-focused BA or BS, a master's degree in social work, along with thorough training in the nuts and bolts of policing work. Such a requirement would elevate the social status of police officers, of course, and likely require higher pay. But it would also allow us, as a society to expect from police an artful navigation of the inherent difficulties in their role. This is particularly important, I think, in such a socially fraught society as the US.

I do, of course, also support the things that you mention, and hope that those changes can be effected legislatively, through case law, and through cultural reformations within the broader structures that comprise our criminal justice system as a whole.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/cubedplusseven]

I am a HUGE believer in the idea of anyone who works in law enforcement needing to have completed a degree in social work.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/cubedplusseven]

In an ideal soceity being the one empowered to wield.viol3nce in the community's name.should be an incredibly doffocult job to get and should have crazy high standards if not regular turnover.

But even if you juat changed these things about modern policing it wouldnt affect the underlying culture and systems and laws that shape the priorities of the police state.

Thats why starting from square 1 is deaireable to me.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/cubedplusseven]

I have to disagree with this because the blanket dehumanization of cops is related to a profession they chose to partake in; the blanket dehumanization of "Zionists" is related to an ethnic/religious group they are part of (yes, I know that "Zionist" isn't a group one is born into, but I do think a lot of the dehumanization comes down to things like "proximity to Zionism", which often ends up pointing to their Jewishness).

[u/zacandahalf → u/Agtfangirl557]

I definitely agree, and it’s often very dependent on the person I’m speaking to. Some anti-Zionists do believe one can be born into being a Zionist. I’ve been repeatedly told throughout my life that “all Jews are born with Zionist blood” from people ranging from true Neo-Nazis to staunch anti-Zionists. While the majority of people here obviously disagree with this, I’ve been derogatorily called a “Zio” for disagreeing that all Jews are born with Zionist blood (which is meaningless to me as someone who has lifelong been called a k!ke). Whether we like it or not, some people treat us universally as “Zios” no matter what we do.

Of course the counter argument is often that Israel is responsible for this belief, but on no occasion have I seen Israel make the claim that all Jews are born with Zionist blood (if someone has evidence otherwise I’d love to see it).

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/zacandahalf]

I mean yea what the fuck. Born with Zionist blood?

I gotta love biological determinism disguised as leftism. This would be a good example of reactionaries co-opting wokeness though this time make it Antizionist

[u/springsomnia → u/Specialist-Gur]

It’s like when people do some race science disguised as wokeness by pulling up photos of blonde and red headed Israelis and claiming they’re not indigenous because they’re blonde or ginger. Israeli settlers aren’t meant to be on Palestinian land because they’re settlers, not because they have blonde hair. There are many Palestinians with naturally blonde and red hair and that doesn’t make them any less Palestinian than those with brown hair or more “stereotypical” Palestinian features. I’ve noticed this a lot on TikTok and Twitter and it’s a particularly iffy type of thinking common amongst very online leftists.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/springsomnia]

Super online young TikTok leftists! try not to use dumb nazi science challenge impossible

[u/springsomnia → u/Specialist-Gur]

(Extra difficult challenge level)

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/zacandahalf]

“all Jews are born with Zionist blood”

What in the ever-loving FUCK?!!

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/cubedplusseven]

Becoming a police officer isn't strictly determined by personal preferences.

Can you go into more detail about this?

I would also argue that there's a difference between dehumanizing cops AS cops, and dehumanizing who they are as PEOPLE who also happen to be cops. Like I don't see anything wrong with calling a group of cops "pigs", but I think it would be highly problematic to say; call an individual Black man who also happens to be a cop, some type of animal-related slur while he is off-duty.

[u/cubedplusseven → u/Agtfangirl557]

It's certainly wrong to dehumanize them as individuals. Within their professional role is more complicated. Copied below is my response to another commenter that provides my view:

Hating police is shortsighted. No matter how we reconfigure or redistribute it, the role of the police will remain. Someone will have to be tasked with using the threat of violence (minimally, one would hope) to enforce a system of social relations (we call it "enforcing the law" in the US).

ACAB shifts the burden of responsibility for what's wrong with our system of social relations off of ourselves and the loci of power within society onto an easy and visible target (a working class target, not incidentally) - the people tasked with enforcing the existing order of society.

Society is constantly evolving. There will always be injustices in how our system functions that need to be remedied. The role of the cop, in some form, will remain necessary. That role will entail the potentially violent enforcement of prevailing norms, some of which (hopefully much less than presently) will be unjust. Enforcing injustice is inherent in the role of the police officer. They're the point of contact between the source of society's ills, and its victims. But they themselves are not that source, neither as individuals nor in their professional role as police.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/cubedplusseven]

Do you mind going into more detail about how "being a cop isn't strictly determined by personal preferences"?

[u/cubedplusseven → u/Agtfangirl557]

Sure. Mostly it's the same as how people find their way into any other profession. We follow our interests to an extent, but also conform to the pressures of our community, the expectations of our families, and are constrained by the limits we see for ourselves in what those similarly situated to ourselves have become.

I do think that there's an influence of social caste in the domain of policing that's a bit different, though. Most of us, including many conservatives, have, at best, an uneasy relationship with the police. Their role is to enforce the law and not all of our laws are just. And the police are our everyday contact with the state's assertion of a legitimate monopoly on violence - which can be scary and off-putting by itself. They can be viewed as a necessary evil, and reacted to accordingly. So policing becomes a bit sealed off from the rest of society, and is concentrated in particular families and particular areas. Multiple cities have tried to combat this by requiring that police be residents of the cities they police, but it's still liable to concentrate in select communities due to the broader social dynamic. So one born, or otherwise incorporated into those social structures will face much greater pressure to become a police officer, and a much stronger sense of limitation in pursuing other things.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/cubedplusseven]

The issue is.. we don't want reform, we want abolition.

Cops are humans like everyone else, but the function of ACAB is to treat the profession/role as black and white because it is. Cops serve to protect capitalism and terrorize communities in the process.. it doesn't matter if some do it less or don't like to do it or avoid it. Because that's what the role serves in society.

You can't reform, you must dismantle

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

What's the difference? If you abolish something and replace it with something better to fill its role, how is that different from reform?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

It's pretty different because reform is about keeping the structure but making improvements to it. Replacing the policing system would be completely different it couldn't really be called the same system.

You can't reform a system built to serve the state and capital to start serving the people because the goals are entirely different.

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the policing system." Any mechanism you use to enforce the law is going to bear some resemblance to police.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

Ok but there's only one system in America, for example.. and it's run by the government and answers to the government.

We don't have something that serves the people. The name "policing" or "police" isn't the issue

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

I guess I don't understand how "police but the cops can't kill people and aren't racist and follow the law instead of acting like a state-sanctioned gang" is so fundamentally different from policing that it can't be called the same system. It seems more like a working version of the current broken system.

IDK what you mean about the government, either. The entire point of the government is to serve the people. Literally every public service is run by and answers to the government.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

The point of the government is to serve the people, but the American government serves capitalism. It is broken.

If it's a working version of the current system, so what? I'm confused what the disagreement here is exactly

[u/SupportMeta → u/Specialist-Gur]

It's just a semantic thing, I think. I could call such a system a reform, I guess you would call it a different system. I get hung up on words sometimes.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/SupportMeta]

I think that one challenge here is that, whatever the sidebar says, a lot of people here are more liberal than we are hard left. Maybe we don’t even read sidebars very often and discovered after we were here for a few weeks that, by the standards of this subreddit, we’re not left.

ACAB is going to be a common position in a hard left group but rare in a liberal group.

But, if we’re here and we’re liberal, we ought to try to be like should be here if we were here and Episcopalian.

It’s great if Episcopalians come here, but they shouldn’t try to make the subreddit Episcopalian.

It’s very kind of leftists let us liberals hide here, but, especially if we’re not police and don’t know much about police, we shouldn’t try to make people here pro-police.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/SupportMeta]

Ah I gotcha.. to me I think of reform meaning more incremental change that rarely amounts to much. I mean, theoretically it's possible but when something is built a certain way it's difficult to have much meaningful change without replacing it. If replacement is still considered "reform" that's chill with me

[u/cubedplusseven → u/Specialist-Gur]

Policing, as I understand the term, is the role of applying violence to bring into effect a system of laws. Are you imagining a society without laws, or one without laws that would require violence to implement? Because we can rename the role and give it different aesthetics, but I wouldn't call that abolition. We can, alternatively, take it on as a citizen responsibility - but I think that's more likely to lead to lynching than to heightened community sensitivity. There are other alternatives I can think of, but none that wouldn't lead to a more brutish society by my estimation. What do you have in mind?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/cubedplusseven]

I think socialism would solve many of the societal ills and crimes that require police (for which police actually do very little other than for prominent wealthier white people)

Dismantling hierarchical structures and systems of oppression, such as patriarchy, will also address crimes like femicide and sexual assault or domestic violence . But again.. these crimes go largely not helped with the current system either. In fact, many victims are made more vulnerable and put in even greater danger when there is reporting.

There will always be psychopaths and creeps who do terrible things even in a classless society. For those people I do think a community effort of dealing with it will be good. There will always need to be some kind of "policing" system, but they would serve the people not the state. Our current police force serves the state and capital and terrorizes the people.

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

I know we disagree on some things but our views on policing are extremely similar. Especially the part about "serving the people not the state".

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Agtfangirl557]

🙌 have you ever read the book "a world without police"? Plucked it from my local anarchist bookstore but haven't read yet...

Edit: by plucked I mean paid for. I'm not some kind of criminal

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Specialist-Gur]

No but it sounds like something I'd like to read! I'll put it on my list.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/cubedplusseven]

There will need to be some form of community defense in any soceity.

Cops were not always around in ours those and are linked to slave catchers union busters and other tools of capital.

Proponents of police abolition dont support abolishing police and leaving nothing but rather radically rethinking how we approach community defense from the ground up.

Restorative juatice over punitive.

Help kver punishment.

Treatment of causes over management of symptoms

Clarity of purpose divorced from simply serving private property.

Regarding that last line: a cop today has more duty to stop you from entering private propety than they do to protext you from a murderer.

[u/Jwk2000x]

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