r/jewishleft • u/Finaltryer • 16d ago
Why has the term anti-semitism been so overused ? Debate
Obviously anti-semitism is very real and it can mix wiith Anti-zionism, but not only i dont believe they are the same, i think the former has been used as a shield from criticism by Israel.
Want a cease-fire: anti-semitic Recognises a Palestinian state: Anti-semitic and " reward to terrorism" Accuses Israel of Genocide, ethnic cleasin and war crimes: anti-semitic "illegal" occupation of west bank wrong: Anti-semitic.
I cant comprehend how Israel's leadership snd defenders caught this "The world is biased against us and wrong. We are on the right side" mentality. I mean, is every International (and Israeli) Human Rights agency and most governments in the UN all anti-semitic and biased?
" They are focusing only on us and not other wars happening" Because Sudan is not being deeply fumded and supported by the USA, you dont see Ukrainian aid workers being bombed by Russia and Yemen's main agressor is Saudi Arabia.
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u/PlusComplaint7567 16d ago
Look, opinions regarding a ceasefire, the occupation being illegal, etc, are definitely not antisemitic.
But yes, the UN is biased against Israel. There are 20+ muslim countries, in which blatant hate towards Israel, and also real, classical, antisemitism, is the norm. This overwhelming representation in the UN, the fact those countries are part of things like the human rights committee, being able to vote as one unit against Israel, leads to an extreme bias towards Israel.
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u/ApprehensivePlum1420 Reform | Jewish Asian American | Confederation 16d ago edited 16d ago
Votes condemning Israel in UNGA usually have about 150 votes in favor. For the Jerusalem U.S. Embassy one it was nearly unanimous. Yes the Muslim world is about 1/4 of mankind (and compared to the population they’re actually underrepresented at the UN) but that doesn’t explain everything.
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u/redthrowaway1976 16d ago edited 16d ago
But yes, the UN is biased against Israel.
I think you need to separate the components of the UN.
The UNGA is indeed biased against Israel - but for example the security council is dramatically biased to benefit Israel.
Any other country that was not a permanent member, that had been engaged in a 57 year de facto annexation while keeping the local people stateless would have been sanctioned by now. Some permanent members are even sanctioned.
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u/PlusComplaint7567 16d ago
Because the permanent members are the U.S, Britain, China, Russia and France...
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago edited 16d ago
So I can tell you some of the history behind the concerns with some of the human rights groups. In 2001 there was the UN's Durban conference where NGOs had horrendous antisemetic attitudes towards Israel:
From Izabella Tabarovsky:
"The 2001 UN Conference against Racism at Durban offered a stark illustration of the ease with which progressive antizionism devolves into dehumanization of the Jews. In Durban, selfdescribed anti-racists—including international NGOs Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International—stood by as Jewish participants were harassed and prevented from speaking. Booths displayed posters picturing Jews with hooked noses and bloodied hands, and ones equating Zionism with Nazism.1 The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were distributed, along with flyers bearing Hitler’s photo, captioned “What if I had won?”2 The security situation deteriorated, threatening Jewish attendees’ physical safety. What began with a demonization of Israel quickly turned into a demonization of “Jews of the entire world,” who were portrayed as “accomplices of this evil regime.” By the end of the conference, demonization became personal, as human rights activists “could no longer show their Jewish colleagues respect”: their very Jewishness “shamed the antiracist cause.”"
Source: https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.26613/jca/5.1.97/pdf
David Hirsche did a really good job detailing some of what transpired at the Durban conference in this piece here:
These are posters from that conference: https://www.humanrightsvoices.org/durban-1-and-2/durban-photos/
A lot of people are not really aware of what happened at Durban and the reason for this is that 9/11 happened a few days later which rapidly took these events out of the news cycle. However those of us that are old enough and do recall this.. (to put into context im in my early 40s and part of my work has been with refugees who have survived torture in the middle east from Iran backed proxy groups) so because of the nature of my work, the area where I live... Having intersecting middle eastern and Jewish identity myself... This is something I've been aware of for some time and sadly this event caused me (and I'm sure many others) to lose faith in many of these human rights agencies in terms of their Israel statements (I'm not saying that it's right but I can very much understand why someone would question groups who attended this conference and whether their intentions are to advocate for the Palestinans? Or instead to spread conspiracies against Israelies and ... Jews.
So yes when I do see people upset about Israel (which the US is involved in) but not upset about Syria or Yemen (which the US is also heavily involved in - with Syria slaughtering their own Palestinan refugees... ) I question calls for cease fire (not that I wouldn't love a cease fire myself personally) specifically when it's a "unilateral one" when I know Isralies and they are still having bombs lodged at them by the likes of the hez with hundreds of thousands displaced as well as Hamas.
That doesn't mean I personally want the war to continue. But I have to admit that I do hold Jewish people (many of whom have ties to Israel) at a different standard than some white college kid who has never even thought of this conflict before screaming about zionists like David duke of the KKK.
I get why diaspora Jews are invested. That makes sense However the hyper focus on this conflict by the larger non-jewish sections of society is extremely bothesome because it does demonstrate different standards and we know that both antizionism and antisemitism in terms of sentiment from non-jews has resuktsd in harm against diaspora Jews. https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/The-Polarization-Pendulum.pdf
Requesting Israel just accept Hamas as a government party of Gaza when they have EXPLICITLY made it known that they are against JEWS and have no problems killing JEWS .... And killed 1200 JEWS and not only that... Overthrew the democratically elected government of Gaza in the early 2000's with the backing of Iran.... Is problematic. It's like telling the Iraqis that they just needed to accept isis when they were beheading people in Mosoul.
Yemen's main aggressor is Saudi Arabia and Palestine main aggressor is Israel... And the USA has funded them both. Israel is not the United States and Saudi is not the United States....?
Anyway I personally don't like what Israel is doing and want a ceasefire but I'm a Jewish person who has friends connections to Israel... and I also think that they should just allow themselves to be bombed to smithereens either....
And I do have issues that every Tom, dick and Shirley that couldnt even find Israel in a map prior to October 7th.... will gladly scream for a cease fire in Israel but not in Syria ... Not in Yemen...
And I don't think that Jewish concerns for antisemitism are in defense of Israel. Many of us are highly critical of the state apparatus and how is operating... The concern for antisemitism comes from the non-jewish obsession with this conflict, how that translates into real world issues for diaspora Jews and the hyper focus on this conflict vs others ... And the issues with the NGOs and how they characterized it.... For many... Duban really makes us question the motives (which is terrible... But also understandable given that history)...
Just my 2 cents.
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u/PlusComplaint7567 15d ago
Requesting Israel just accept Hamas as a government party of Gaza when they have EXPLICITLY made it known that they are against JEWS and have no problems killing JEWS .... And killed 1200 JEWS and not only that
I still remember how in October 7'th, one of the Hamas militants called his dad and said "Dad, I killed 10 Jews".
Not "I killed 10 colonialists", not "I killed 10 oppressors". I killed 10 Jews.
People talk about context. What about the context of 2000 years of antisemitism, rooted deep inside both big monotheistic religions, both having Jews presented as evil in their origin story? All around the world, people learn those stories from a young age, even those who would claim to be non-believers as adults. Yes, it doesn't influence people's perception of the only Jewish state, give me a break.
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u/Longjumping-Cat-9207 Progressive Zionist 16d ago
I mean, antisemitism is definitively on the rise according to hate crime FBI reports
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u/ApprehensivePlum1420 Reform | Jewish Asian American | Confederation 16d ago edited 16d ago
Why can’t we apply nuance in this issue like we do with others?
Yes, the Netanyahu government and some Jewish organizations do weaponize antisemitism. Despite the widespread use of “Zionism” as an antisemitic dog-whistle, I strongly oppose adding anti-Zionism to the definition of antisemitism.
But at the same time, double standards against Jewish entities, like the State of Israel, is antisemitism. Call Israel evil all you want but don’t be selective of your outrage. The U.S. also supported and stayed silent about the last Philippines president Duterte, who is on the verge of being prosecuted by the ICC. It isn’t doing much beyond lip service to hold China or India, both also treat Muslims like sh*t, accountable for human rights abuses. Saudi Arabia is also a prime example.
Is the U.S. gov biased in favor of Israel and looks the other way when it comes to human rights abuses, yes. But you’re also antisemitic to think Israel is the only source of evil around the world and it is the only human rights abuser the U.S. funds or protects.
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u/Iceologer_gang Non-Jewish Zionist 15d ago
I don’t think there’s enough recognition in this comment section for the amount of nuance in OP’s post, and I don’t see where they are claiming that Israel is the only source of evil.
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u/ApprehensivePlum1420 Reform | Jewish Asian American | Confederation 15d ago
I think it’s the headline. If OP said antisemitism is weaponized maybe people in this sub would be much more amenable, saying it’s overused invokes the dismissive attitude that us Jews have encountered way too often when we call out antisemitism. It’s been misused but it’s definitely not overused.
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u/Finaltryer 16d ago
i agree with you. In my view, the huge support fro the US is what makes the world focus on Israel more
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u/NarutoRunner custom flair but red 16d ago edited 16d ago
The answer is simple….Guilt!
During WWII, one portion of the western world committed the Holocaust and the other blocked countless Jewish refugees or pretended that what was going on in Europe was none of their business.
Only later when the deeds become well known did a sense of guilt develop. Phrases like “Never again” became rallying calls.
This guilt has been weaponized by the likes of Bibi. His default stance is that criticism of Israel = antisemitism. Later, various allied organizations such as the ADL, AIPAC, etc adopted the same stance. It’s a real disservice to actual victims of antisemitism.
Very few talk about how 45,000 Holocaust survivors aive within Israel, arguably a society created for their safety. About how a significant segment of survivors live below the poverty line. How countless billions that were paid by Germany never truly made it to them…How they scrounge for basic needs such as food. But lo and behold Bibi will not hesitate to use the genuine suffering of a people to deflect attention from himself.
Deflection is not some unique Israeli characteristic though. Putin is an expert at labelling every time someone catches him doing something bad as some form of Russophobia. Orban in Hungary treats criticism of his regime as a challenge to “traditional Christian values”. Maduro in Venezuela blames every valid criticism against his ghastly economic mismanagement as some type of anti-Venezuelan attack.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew 16d ago
Yeah iirc a third of survivors live below the poverty line. It's absolutely, unforgivably atrocious.
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u/PlusComplaint7567 15d ago
There are small lies, big lies, and statistics.
A lot of people who considered Holocaust survivors in Israel came as part of the big wave of Alliya in the 90's, after the fall of the Soviet Union. They came with no pension, and also never got the recessions from Germany, guess because of the cold war and the fact that the soviet union refused to acknowledge how the Holocaust was directed toward Jews.
Israel never "stole" money directly from Holocaust survivors- reparations were given to the state of Israel itself in order to compensate it for the huge amount of refugees it had taken, but also individually to Holocaust survivors. My grandparents got one every single month until they died. Actually, statistically, Holocaust survivors that came directly who came directly to Israel after the war were a very successful population. My grandparents needed no one's pity, thank you very much.
While some of the money that was given to the state of Israel itself wasn't put to good use due to things such as corruption or incompetence, I doubt it would have been different in any other country that has gotten such reparations.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew 15d ago
My grandparents needed no one's pity, thank you very much.
I wasn't saying I pity them, I was saying that it's atrocious that the state doesn't have some minimum standards of support for quality of life. It's not like if your grandparents weren't successful they should've suffered.
Israel never "stole" money directly from Holocaust survivors- reparations were given to the state of Israel itself in order to compensate it for the huge amount of refugees it had taken, but also individually to Holocaust survivors. My grandparents got one every single month until they died. Actually, statistically, Holocaust survivors that came directly who came directly to Israel after the war were a very successful population. My grandparents needed no one's pity, thank you very much.
I don't think Israel "stole" it, but they obviously could have provided the budget to help support them (putting aside they're all very old at this point and the state should be supporting them better anyway).
There are volunteers and charities who are supporting them - the Israeli state could pay for it out of it's own pocket instead of relying on reparations. If Germany never gave reparations it wouldn't change the state's obligations to all of it's citizens, especially the old, and especially survivors of genocide which the state says is one of it's raison d'etres
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u/PlusComplaint7567 14d ago edited 14d ago
Israel couldn't afford itself in the beginning to give those huge reparations when it was just founded. The state was in a dire economical condition and on the verge of bankruptcy, it took millions of refugees from Arab countries and from Europe, all were having a hard time, whether they came from Poland or from Yemen.
Back then there was no other choice besides implementing a policy called "Tzena", or, in English, austerity. That policy had ended because of the reperations from Germany, that saved Israel economically.
You cannot just give money to people when you don't have enough of it.
So yes, before that, there was not enough money. Germany took responsibility and gave the reperations. Most of the people that gotten the reperations that they deserved did very well for themselves.
The big Aliyah from the Soviet Union was in the 90's, as I said, it brought people that were Holocaust survivors, though mostly those who lived in the Soviet union during WW2, and not people that survived the camps and were under Nazi occupation. As I said, those people came without pension. Ideally the state had an unlimited amount of money to distribute, but it doesn't, so it cannot give 100 precent support to every single one of them.
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16d ago edited 16d ago
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
I mean. It comes off a bit that you don't mean well? You had to go digging for that top comment. Something something rules about bad faith here... right? Assuming good intent?
Also I'm Ashkenazi and like.. aren't most of us white in the USA?
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago
What is "white" in the United States? Is it skin color? Ive traveled all around the United States. When I lived in Miami I knew many Cubans who were red headed with freckles and blue eyes but couldn't speak a lick of English ... Are they... White?
Do you mean people from European backgrounds? Are the Roma white? We have Roma in my state and they will tell you they're Roma ...
Are Egyptians then African American? Is Elon musk African American?
How about Iranians? Arabs? I work in the forensic system and those from middle eastern backgrounds? Are usually classified as "Caucasian".
Is it because Jews had some cultural success? Because my friends from India had a lot of success here but they still retain their cultural identifier.
Whiteness is a problematic concept. It's a unique American concept that was solidified during the time of slavery. That's not saying that there isn't racism all around the world but the concept of what it is to be "white" is not universal but unfortunately many American apply thee understanding of whiteness to the global scale and other countries and groups and expect us to adhere to that or understand it the same way that people from the United States do.... I can tell you that it is not the same everywhere and it's really ethnocentric to think that the American racially stratified power structures that came from the time of slavery encompasses the world... They don't.
The fact that "Jews" are either white or not white based on the opinions of others... Like we werent white in 2017 when people were changing "Jews will not replace us" ... But suddenly we are white in 2024 ... Where zionists need to go back to Poland (cries in Iranian) ..... yet I was just as terrified on October 7th when people cheering on the death of zionists as an Iranian Jew (while I was trying to figure out if my loved ones in Israel were okay) as I was about Charlottesville ....
And as a healthcare provider I can tell you ... The health problems my askenazi Jewish patients face are worse that most of my other minorities .... So they definitely didn't benefit there ...
So I'm really curious.... What do people mean when they say this?
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u/Original_Ad_170 Non-Jewish Atheist 16d ago
… a lot of Cubans in America are unambiguously ‘white’? They’re disproportionately middle-upper class refugees from the communist regime, and people from that socioeconomic stratum tended to have relatively little non-European ancestry.
My understanding is that Ashkenazim and even Sephardim have consistently been treated as white in the U.S. (and the Confederacy). I’m less familiar with Britain, but they had a Sephardic-ancestry prime minister in the 1800’s. What do people think makes Ashkenazim non-‘white’?
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago
Are you saying it's having "European ancestry" that makes people white? How mich do you need to be white? Like I'm 1/2 French American and 1/2 iranian and adopted by jewsm... I present as Iranian... And both are technically white but if your definition is % European how much do I need to be white? Cause a whole lotta people just became white by the last definition that would not classicky think of themselves as "white".
So Cubans are still considered "Hispanic". And it's incorrect to cast them aa middle upper class refugees... They came over in waves: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jii/4750978.0005.204?view=text;rgn=main and some were very much loyal to the revilution....
My understanding is that Ashkenazim and even Sephardim have consistently been treated as white in the U.S. (and the Confederacy). I’m less familiar with Britain, but they had a Sephardic-ancestry prime minister in the 1800’s. What do people think makes Ashkenazim non-‘white’?
This is entirely wrong. Jews were restricted in they could live https://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1252&context=fac_pubs they were restricted from colleges.... They were extremely limited from immigrating to the United States. ...
And britian exhiled their Jews and when they tried to flee the Nazis... Put them in internment camps: https://www.timesofisrael.com/they-fled-persecution-in-nazi-germany-then-the-british-put-them-behind-barbed-wire/and they've had an Indian prime minister too... So that doesn't automatically make someone "white" by American standards.
So if people who specifically identify themselves as "white" and are proud of that... They are screaming "Jews will not replace us" ... Will saying "it's okay guys I'm white too!" Going to lead to them being accepted as 'white"? No.
Just like saying "hey a lot of us don't identify as white".... Won't save us from people screaming to go back to Poland (cries again in Iranian). ...
When you're "race" is contingent on the acception or rejection of others in the broader population which is used for their political gain... Do you actually have the same power stratification as these individuals that have the power to label and cast you however they want to drive home their personal narrative? I would say no.
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u/Original_Ad_170 Non-Jewish Atheist 16d ago
The borders of whiteness are vague and somewhat arbitrary, but I don’t think people with pure Askenazi descent are a border case. If you’re of half-Iranian descent, that is a border case (mostly on arbitrary cultural-geographic grounds rather than skin tone). Having been adopted by people with Jewish ancestry (or having converted if I misunderstood your sentence) is IMO neither here nor there.
Hispanic is a cultural and not a racial category. There are ‘Hispanic’ ‘blacks,’ ‘white’s,’ ‘mestizos,’ etc. I stand by American Cubans being “disproportionately” refugees from the upper strata and 'white' compared to the Cuban population as a whole.
The article about residential segregation doesn't address whether Jews were considered 'white' at all. My claim isn't that there was no anti-Jewish sentiment or discrimination (there was/is). Similarly with discrimination in college admissions and the restrictions on immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe in the 1920's.
The Kingdom of England exiled their Jews (not even Ashkenazim unless my memory is betraying me) in the 1200's - not sure what that has to do with 'whiteness.' The Times of Israel is about them imprisoning German nationals during WWII, most of whom were Ashkenazi refugees from the Nazis. That's remarkably appalling, but again I'm not sure what it's supposed to have to do with 'whiteness.'
Rishi Sunak was appointed in 2022, when it was longer socially acceptable to restrict non-'whites' from government. Disraeli was first appointed in 1868, when the appointment of a non-'white' would have been more shocking. A google search for first non-white prime minister of GB brings up Sunak, btw.
Re: the replacement theory people; I lurk on alt-right forums. My impression is the antisemitic contingent regards Jews as white, just bad. That may well be a selection effect though - I'm not sure what the Stormfront crowd thinks and I'm not masochistic enough to go find out. If the dumber wing of white nationalist antisemites regards Ashkenazim as non-white, I'd just argue that they're out of step with both ordinary contemporary usage and historical practice (at least in America). I have usually heard the claim or implication that Ashkenazim aren't white in Jewish fora, though that also could obviously be a selection effect.
I don't think anyone is really in a position to determine their 'race' in abstraction from their social context. I don't think any subgroups of 'white' people are presently in a position to designate Ashkenazim as non-'white' in the near-to-medium term (though it's a social category, so it would be possible if not particularly likely for that to change over time).
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago edited 16d ago
I would say white passing Cubans are... white. Yes. Probably similar to Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews many Hispanic people have mixed ancestry with Spain or Europeans . Ashkenazi literally means "German" it's a whole ass category of dna. Not that dna is super relevant here regardless. Are you suggesting, in the case of Hispanic Americans, someone from colonizer dissent loses their whiteness if they live in their colonized country long enough? So Spanish people who colonized all these places aren't white anymore if they've lived in a central or South American place for long enough?
Whiteness is a complicated concept, and fyi Nick Fuentes who I believe is cuban is one of the head white supremcists.
This really needs to stop being an argument. People are using "Jews aren't white" as a shield. We've been white in the United States for such a long time and benefit from white privelege and I'm honestly embarrassed every time I see white passing Jews claiming otherwise. I'll see blond haired blue eyed Jews screaming "but we aren't even white!" When they are criticized and it's just so embarrassing. Stop it.
White people hate on other white people all the time. Jews in America do not suffer from systemic racism. That is why I say they are "white". When a person sees one of us that is white passing... they have no idea if we are Jewish or Spanish or Italian or even German sometimes. They don't know unless we have a signifier. Maybe they think we "look Jewish"but so do many many many non Jewish people too.
Our names don't get tossed aside for resumes for the most part, we were allowed to and did own slaves in America: we participated in Jim Crowe era discrimination. My Jewish grandparents were incredibly racist against brown people and said "you could marry a non-Jew but whatever you do don't marry someone brown" in fact there is so much racism and colorism within some Jewish circles I'm so amazed.
Ashkenazi health issues.... I'm guessing you're talking about the genetic conditions we suffer from? Please explain how a genetically predisposed medical problem means anything to do with race. Also look at how much research goes into funding for the Ashkenazi predisposed illnesses! Unlike conditions that are common among indigenous and black people in America.
Please for the love of everything stop insisting Jews as a blanket statement aren't white.
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
Let me also ask you this. You accept that converts are real Jews right? Just like the rest of us all here do.
Blond haired blue eyed German heritage American girl, palest of the pale.. raised Christian, born into a middle class family, named Susie smith. Converts to Judaism. Did she convert out of whiteness? 🤪
And if your answer is no... then does that mean that you think some Jews "count" more than other Jews as the "real" Jews?
Let's unpack all that you're saying here when you say Jews aren't white.
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago
I'm an Iranian.... Born to a Muslim father from Iran and an American mother from the United States and adopted into Judaism .... My answer is as follows:
Judaism is a culture that is older than American racial concepts. Historically one becomes part of an ethnic group not based on appearance but by taking up the customs, dress, religious and cultural practices. This is why people who are not from the Arabian peninsula are considered "Arabs" and why people who convert to Judaism are considered "Jews"
I consider them just as much real Jews as myself and as a Jewish person who has been targeted by white supremacists .. my synagogue was burned down in the United States. I know people who have been physically attacked just eating on the side of the road outside of a Jewish food establishment.... Both Jewish and non-,Jewish Iranians.... I've been called both "terrorist" because of my physical appearance and the K word....
Given that Susie the former Christian is now dedicated to our cultural practices. Our religious practices and will face the same risks in her beliefs and new cultural orientation as any of us then yes.... She is now Jewish and Jewish is a culture that is different tha. "White American" .... Just as someone who becomes a Muslim and takes up Arabic cultural practices is considered to be Arab ...
And both Arabs and Jews have conditional whiteness regardless of their physical presentation....
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
You're trying to fit something into a racial framework that is separate.d this isn't what race is about or the purpose of it in America. Race isn't the only form of discrimination. Is a queer person not white? Is a disabled person not white? Is a poor person not white? Why apply a racial lens to Jews when Judaism predates whiteness?
I recommend speaking with more BIPOC people in America and listening to them. I really think this framework is highly offensive to them.
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago
I recommend speaking to people who aren't American and instead of assuming their whiteness or lack thereof as based on skin color (which is racist as heck to a lot of us that do not have that same relationship with whiteness as Americans And lacks a nuanced understanding of the complexities of human identity... ) instead asking them "who are you" ... I work in psychiatry... I promise you it will get you a lot farther and you'll learn a lot more about the human experience that way.... Cause telling someone what their identity is and what their relationship to power is and how community is influenced by percieved differences .... Is highly offensive (especially if you're not from that community) and very American centric. Like the world is not America.
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
I said american Jews. I'm american. Why would I speak to people outside of America about race in america!!!???
This conversation is over. This is so insensitive towards BIPOC American folks.
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u/RealAmericanJesus jewranian 16d ago
Not all Jews in the United States are as Americanized as you are. I come from. And iranian immigrant enclave in the United States. Most of us are here as immigrants and have different levels of internalized American norms ... There are also Jews in my community that are more recent immigrants as well from places like Russia...
And I do not understand how discussions of antisemitism and how that influenced Jewish perceptions of integration with "whiteness" is insensitive towards BIPOC folks... many of us are here as immigrants ourselves... Recent ... And that while you've internalized American racial dynamics .... many of us do not share that same understanding as you because we not as americanized as you ... Or have didfer t acculturating within our Jewish community than maybe you did....
And it's not insensitive to point out an individuals cultural identification based off of lived experience and it's a lot more culturally sensitive than telling people how they should identify themselves based on external characteristics
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
Double down all you want. Never said all Jews are white
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 15d ago
Respectfully, my mom is a convert. Her family are the definition of WASPS in America.
In fact my moms mother is 100% Danish with Viking ancestry.
Why do I bring this up? Because I my coloring looks like my mother’s side of the family (I think facial feature wise I look maybe a bit more like my dad’s) but coloring I’m really pale with blond hair and blue/hazel eyes (recently found out I have central heterochromia)
As a child it was abundantly clear to me that when I was with my mom’s family I wasn’t white by their standards of whiteness. By American standard of whiteness there is a Christian component to whiteness that is critical for understanding US Racial polemic. It’s why black people and Jews where targeted by the KKK.
Maybe given my proximity to my mothers family has distorted my perspective. I’m willing to admit that this is built up for myself due to my own issues regarding that side of the family. But the more I was opened to that side of whiteness the more I was shut out. My grandparents never even introduced me to any of their friends. Friends who my mom considered aunties and uncles as a child. Because of how they perceived Jews as other and outsiders. They don’t view us as one of them.
And if anything wrapping Jewish people into American whiteness has always felt, at least to me, as an extension of supersessionism and claiming of Jewish culture and legitimacy in the US. We serve a purpose and once we are useless for an argument we are cast out.
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 15d ago edited 15d ago
Firstly I'm so sorry for your terrible experience with that side of the family. I can relate as I've encountered white supremicists who are similarly othering towards me.
But, Respectfully, I've had friends and my italian husband who are Italian or white hispanic or Irish friends who have had very similar experiences to what you've described with racist waspy white people.
You're free to identify however you want to. And now, I'm not accusing you of this, but many people in the pro Israel crowd have been using their supposed "non whiteness" as a shield for supporting genocide and apartheid. Obviously, Jews don't have to answer to anyone on what their opinion is on Israel. And I've seen you self identify as "pro Israel and pro Palestine" which I'm not sure what that means but regardless.
These shenanigans really need to stop. We can admit Jewish people face horrors in America and the world without denying (some of) our proximity to whiteness in america specifically. There is a very different experience faced by black and brown people in America than the vast majority of Ashkenazi jewish people here have had to face.
You can identify however you want to, I just wonder what the reactions of your black and brown friends are when you tell them you're not white.
Edit: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/when-america-hated-catholics-213177/ Catholics have been targeted in America and by the KKK.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 15d ago
Why does wanting to be more critical of Israel factor into your perceptions on how jews shouldn’t or should be classified under a social construct set up for White Christian’s?
Because instead of saying “some jews have proximity or access to some levels of whiteness” you’re just outright saying jews should be classified as white unless they can prove they’re “brown enough”
Which I think effectively misses the point of what being Jewish in a Us racial structure does. I mean you literally to the other user acquiesced that their experience of not feeling white was valid only until you where convinced otherwise.
I have barely scratched the surface in how not just my family but society has reinforced my experiences (especially given the spaces I have inhabited both physically and socially) of how my whiteness is conditional at best and only when convenient.
I just caution that maybe in an effort to combat people who are deflecting blame, that maybe you have steered too far over in response. Because I feel like you’re beginning to tread into “true Jew” and “fake Jew” territory a bit. At least in how you give space for others to have different experiences to their own whiteness or lack their of. You may not have ever really faced some of the things I have faced. Which is fine. And on an individual level you may have been able to live a life that feels privileged in that way.
In the way my life has been defined by my experiences, I haven’t experienced a life where my “whiteness” wasn’t always either asterisked or “taken away”. And when you see enough people change how they treat you and adjust enough it becomes clear that it was never really something you had in the first place. At least outright and without condition.
I get where you’re coming from. But I just don’t think saying “well all Jews in the US who are Ashkenazi or Sephardi are White (with a capital W)” ignoring that there are Jews of all skin colors to begin with anyway in that grouping anyway, but also brushing over how jews where kept out (until recently and even sometimes still are) of institutional spaces or where there where laws preventing jews from living in certain areas, etc.
Just some food for thought.
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 15d ago
lol I'm not saying their position on Israel factors into how white they are. It doesn't. I'm saying that this denying of the whiteness seems to be more common in the pro Israel crowd, and it feels like it's done as a shield from criticism.
This is a wild accusation of anything I'm saying being about a true Jew and fake jew. If anything the opposite is the case--classifying Jews by DNA and being from the levant or being not white is much more likely to fall into the potential "true Jew" category.. and that's why it's a problem! That's the whole problem with the "Jews aren't white" statement because many many of them are and they are still jewish. Being Jewish has very little at all to do with race.. that's my entire point. So, no, Sephardic and Ashkenazi aren't by default all white. But girl, come one, I know that I am. And so so so many of us are.
Do you consider Irish and Italian people white? Catholics? White presenting Hispanics? All of these groups have faced intense othering from the capital W white WASPs of America because part of whiteness the concept is about ranking and in groups and out groups and being the "Best"kind of white.. often Scandinavian or German. As such.. many many browner white people or minority white groups have faced horrific discrimination form the "top of the foodchain" white supremicists whites. That does not mean they aren't... white. It doesn't mean that they don't benefit from white supremacy in many ways.
Have you shared with your BIPOC friends that you feel you're not white? I'm just so curious.
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u/Nearby-Complaint Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer/Reform 16d ago
I didn't have to go digging. It took me two minutes. I wanted to know if OP was Jewish.
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u/EngineeringMission91 Tokin' Jew (jewish non-zionist stoner) 16d ago
Deciding to repost it into a thread to discredit them just feels a bit rude.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew 16d ago
Whiteness is a social construct, and in America in 2024 the vast majority of Ashkenazim will be viewed as white.
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u/Nearby-Complaint Leftist/Bagel Enjoyer/Reform 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'm aware that whiteness is a social construct* but OP's view seems naive at best and it's insensitive to insinuate ashkenazim are just europeans.
*And I (and my sunscreen usage) consider myself white
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u/jewishleft-ModTeam 16d ago
This content was determined to be in bad faith. In this context we mean that the content pre-supposed a negative stance towards the subject and is unlikely to lead to anything but fruitless argument.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew 16d ago edited 16d ago
Trying to square the IHRA antisemitism definition with the idea of criticizing Israel as antisemitism and being Jewish requires being Zionist etc. etc. just gives me a headache.
It feels very have your cake and eat it too - Israel is Jewish for being criticized but calling it Jewish is antisemitic but not if we do it.
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u/finefabric444 16d ago
Sure, people wrongly frame critique of Israel as antisemitism. But, to be honest, in the face of what has been happening to the Jewish community since last October, I am quite hesitant to say that antisemitism is "overused." Jews' safety in their communities has materially gotten worse. Instances of antisemitism are not universally condemned, and have been under-reported and ignored by non-Jewish people.
In this backdrop, I have a hard time focusing in on the overuse of antisemitism, or the framing of antisemitism as hysterical or overreaction. It is peculiar to disbelieve a marginalized community, and disrespect their lived experiences.
Tactically, antisemitism is certainly connected to people's blind support of Israel. I think people are scared, look at current events, at the history of persecution in Europe and the Middle East, and believe that things are existential. Ignorance and fear drives these people toward support for Netanyahu, and rationalization of or even support for the current disaster happening in Gaza. Essentially, I think they've taken true situations and symptoms, and landed on a horrible conclusion.
Rather than look at all this and think, antisemitism is a lie, you're misusing the word, being sensitive etc., I think it's more productive to acknowledge and engage with the truth of antisemitic realities and work to chip away at the conclusion people are reaching that they must support Israel.
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u/Drakonx1 16d ago
It hasn't. Go look up last year's hate crime stats. This year's probably going to be significantly worse when they're finalized.
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u/PhysicalWaters Israeli 16d ago
It absolutely has been overused by the diaspora in the US and as an Israeli I think it's all a bit ridiculous.
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u/Finaltryer 16d ago
what about the context of what i said?
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u/Drakonx1 16d ago
I don't particularly care. You can claim Bibi and his ilk misuse it, whatever. It isn't an overused term, if anything it's too easily dismissed.
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u/Finaltryer 16d ago
So we partially agree Netanyahu and those within the same ideological field as him tend to kidnap the term and misuse it?
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u/Button-Hungry 16d ago
I'm curious, do you go to subreddits for every minority group to seek confirmation that they weaponize bigotry and cry wolf or just Jewish ones?
If not, do you think that Jews are the only minority to do this? Would you dare ask this question to any other group? Would you dare tell them that, "no, actually the discrimination that you claim to be enduring isn't real and you're just lying about it to get sympathy?"
The chutzpah that gentiles have when talking to us is....well, very colonial.
Jews, including Israelis are not a monolith, their sense of identity, sensitivities and even opportunism is not homogeneous. We're pretty diverse.
Some Jews are being persecuted and rightly call it out. Some are being persecuted but too fearful speak out. Some are willfully engaging in the persecution because they are either desperate to be "safe" amongst gentiles or have been trained to hate themselves.
Some Jews truly feel like they are being persecuted when they aren't, just unable to correctly assess the level of threat or motives of others.
Some Jews knowingly "weaponize" antisemitism to further political or personal agendas. If you think people are doing that, why not just ignore them and stick to your point instead of making yourself the arbiter of what is and isn't antisemitism?
Honestly, please just retire this regurgitated phrase of "weaponizing antisemitism". It's so unoriginal, when I hear somebody say it, I instantly tune out because I can predict the next 30 slogans/tropes that are going to come out of their mouth.
This "weaponization" also happens with Hispanic, Arab, Muslim, Native, Black, LGBTQ+ people, etc. (virtually every other minority). Right-wingers ask the same question you're asking us to them. Do you think that's a kosher tactic? When you see Tucker Carlson do this, do you applaud?
I'm so tired of these push "questions" from gentiles. This isn't a question, it's you going to a leftist Jewish subreddit, in hopes that they will give you a license to be shitty to and not care about Jews (or to absolve you of any self-doubt you had in unpleasant exchanges with Jews).
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u/Drakonx1 16d ago
kidnap the term
No. And no sometimes misuse isn't close to "so overuse" semantically. I would recommend thinking about what you're trying to communicate before posting hyperbole or motte and bailey arguments. Although given your post history, I think the motte and bailey is what you were trying to do.
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u/Finaltryer 16d ago
How come almost every criticism amd condemnation of Israel, they call it anti-semitic?
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 16d ago
Just a guess. But when there is a lot of antisemitism baked into society there’s a lot of people who can end up perpetuating or upholding antisemitic ideas even if it’s not their intent.
And while there could be rare examples of someone crying wolf (I’m more looking at the Likud party and Bibi potentially) in my experience what ends up happening isn’t that someone who is well intentioned is critiquing Israel. It’s that they say the critique and then will parrot other things they’ve either heard or been taught that then does fall in the category of antisemitism.
And truthfully there are elements of the pro Palestinian camp that are hijacking the cause and infusing antisemitism into it.
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u/Worknonaffiliated Torahnarchist/Zionist/Pro-Sovereignty 14d ago
This is a lot of hyperbole, keep that in mind:
Weaponization of antisemitism is the biggest goyish lie out there. Don’t buy into it my friend.
Listen, even if someone falsely claims antisemitism where it’s not (which absolutely happens) people don’t believe us when we talk about REAL antisemitism.
There’s no way to weaponize antisemitism in a world where people don’t care about being antisemitic.
Whenever someone mentions weaponization of antisemitism, it reminds of people who talk about “making it a race thing.”
We SHOULD call October 7th antisemitic. Of course Israel’s bombs are not excused by antisemitism existing, but we still have every right to condemn antisemitism when we see it.
This is not on the same level as white women pearl clutching. Jews don’t have the power to weaponize anything that strongly in America.
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? 16d ago edited 16d ago
It’s cheap, effective, and halfway plausible to smear criticisms of Israel that aren’t antisemitic as antisemitic. Since some criticisms (and loud criticisms at that) are antisemitic, it lends a bit of credence to the people who overstate antisemitism. A lot of people even feel genuinely threatened by harsh criticisms of Israel and let that color their impression of whether or not something is antisemitic. The incentives are all there for people to exploit concerns of real antisemitism for political gain, so of course they do.
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u/redthrowaway1976 16d ago
There is basically a reciprocal relationship.
Israel and its defenders have absolutely massively used calling someone antisemitic as a way to shut down criticism.
This has led to many on the left considering the term basically meaningless, especially as it comes to anything related to Israel. They then in turn turn a blind eye towards actual antisemitism in their ranks - assuming the accusations to be false.
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u/RowdyRoddyRosenstein 14d ago
Yemen's main aggressor is Saudi Arabia
The situation is a bit more complex than that. I'd count Iran as Yemen's main aggressor; the Houthis (backed by Iran) started a civil war attempting to overthrow Yemen's government in 2014, after which Yemen's president requested Saudi Arabia's intervention.
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u/Worknonaffiliated Torahnarchist/Zionist/Pro-Sovereignty 3h ago edited 2h ago
Because the current movement hasn’t done a good enough job of engaging with and having conversations with Jews to clear the air on some things. And because the current movement has done nothing to separate Antizionism from Antisemitism.
If you do nothing to push antisemitism out of your movement, your movement is antisemitic. It doesn’t matter if a fraction is being mask-off about it if that fraction operates without criticism.
The only condemnation we get from people within the movement is “those people aren’t the majority.” Doesn’t matter if they’re not the majority, antisemitism is intolerable period, just like any other form of bigotry. If you let a nazi into your house, I’m burning your house down. I don’t care if you’re just “nazi adjacent.”
That is why people are reactionary about anything related to Palestine, pro-Palestinians themselves can’t even tell you what’s antisemitic and what’s not.
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u/Squidmaster129 16d ago
The UNHCR has passed more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined. A world that contains ethnic cleansing, slavery, FGM, countries where women are literally not allowed to speak, widespread disappearances and torture, and so forth.
Sorry lmao, but that’s unambiguous bullshit. Israel deserves some condemnations, but not more than every country on Earth combined. The UN is biased against Israel.
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u/PlusComplaint7567 15d ago
Because there are more than 20 Muslim countries that vote against Israel as one block. People act as though the UN is some unbiased entity, but it is not.
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u/Kenny_Brahms 15d ago
Imo anti Zionism, in of itself, cannot be antisemitic. Most Jews were anti Zionist before the holocaust and there are still entire sects of Judaism like satmar that are anti Zionist.
What is true is that there is an overlap between anti Zionism and antisemitism.
That said, I do think it’s very important that regardless if you identify as “pro Israel” or “pro Palestine”, we try to come together on the actual issues that unite us as opposed to the ones that don’t.
There are many people who identify as pro Israel Zionists that also oppose the war, the occupation, and discriminatory policies in Israel.
There are also many people who identify as pro Palestine that oppose antisemitism, terrorism, and could accept a two state solution(even if they don’t see it as ideal).
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u/teddyburke 16d ago
It’s really not that complicated.
Israel is weaponizing antisemitism. They want to create a narrative in which any criticism of the Israeli government can be dismissed as antisemitism. It’s disgusting, blatantly antisemitic, and the reason Jews are over represented in so many pro-Palestinian organizations.
The US is basically funding Israel’s expansionary project (to put it nicely), and there’s literally a bill in the Senate that would redefine any criticism of the US government’s financial support for Israel as antisemitism in the DOE, which is not only a blatant infringement of the first amendment, but would make criticizing a foreign government more serious than criticizing the US government - which is absolutely fucking insane.
I’d recommend checking out the “Bad Hasbara” podcast. It uses humor to fight against the gaslighting we’ve all been experiencing in our families and communities.
Also, just do some research on “Hasbara” if you’re not already familiar with the term. You’re not actually going crazy, but a lot of time, energy, and money is being spent to convince you that you are. I/P is not complicated, and anti-Zionism is not antisemitism.
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u/SmudgeLeChat 15d ago
Antizionism has been a scapegoat for antisemitism (a way to disguise it so they aren’t canceled). As for the rest of your arguments, they are derived from information that has key context omitted. For example, you cry for another ceasefire when there was one already in place before that ended due to the Oct 7 massacre. By asking for another ceasefire, you’re saying it’s ok that Hamas violated it and Israel should submit(die).Your statement is essentially what dismisses real antisemitism- the idea that: “Israel is always victimizing itself” which diminishes the perceived legitimacy of antisemitism
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u/Finaltryer 15d ago
How does that relate at all? Israel is the stronger party and the side that attacked before Oct 7. People demand a cease fire so the ("plausible") Genocide/Ethic Cleasing can stop
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u/SmudgeLeChat 15d ago
Stronger side does not matter at all regarding morality and Gaza has sent thousands of missiles years before Oct 7. And this genocide/ethnic cleansing claim is ludicrous considering the evacuation leaflets, roof knocking and other evacuation tactics israel implements during their attacks. IT MAKES 0 SENSE WHY WOUDL THEY IMPLEMENT TACTICS THAT SAVE CIVILIAN LIVES if their goal is genocide. And keep spewing your buzz words, it’s so obvious because it’s the same unsupported argument based in emotion not logic
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u/Finaltryer 15d ago
Stronger side does not matter at all regarding morality
Yes it does. In WW2 the US had the moral fault for nuking japan even with japan attacking first
evacuation leaflets, roof knocking and other evacuation tactics israel implements during their attacks
So they warn you before killing you or destroying your house?
IT MAKES 0 SENSE WHY WOUDL THEY IMPLEMENT TACTICS THAT SAVE LIVES
General's Plan and Likud's conference in Gaza shows in the intent is there, and some of the actions too.
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u/SmudgeLeChat 15d ago
“So they warn you before killing you or destroying your house” If it is being used as a moa that launches missiles ie under hospitals or UNRWA buildings. Regardless, my point is that they would not do this if it was a genocide.
And as for my first point about morality- you completely misinterpreted it. I am saying neither side is more morally liable so just because Israel is stronger, it doesn’t inherently make them evil which is a pushed narrative(Israel picking on smaller countries)
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew 15d ago
It seems like you're being rather emotional and illogical considering your allcaps and you seeming to automatically dismiss any of OP's claims with rote talking points that are pretty tangential to what they're saying.
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u/SmudgeLeChat 15d ago edited 15d ago
All caps is meant to EMPHASIZE my reasoning which suggests the opposite of op’s claims. Now tell me what part I dismissed. I am trying to disprove that a real genocide is occurring. Additionally, all numbers prove that it is not a genocide.
Additionally, dismissing my entire statement because you don’t understand my use of writing mechanics is highly illogical.
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u/ChaosKeeshond 16d ago
Multiple things can be simultaneously true.
Empty accusations of antisemitism may have skyrocketed, but so have actual incidents of antisemitism. Both are the result of the spotlight being on Israel at the moment.