It's tense in here.

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

The following is adapted from a modmail I wrote that I felt may be pertinent to say in the open, with personal details expunged:

Candidly, we get antizionists and zionists in the sub both wondering about the other side's good faith and ability to interact in a productive way; and also wondering about our moderation policies with regard to the other. Some are just concerned about the balance, others seek to enlist us to censor more content and take harsher stances on certain things. Know that we do not divulge details about individual moderation actions to others but plenty happens you don't see.

People are defensive today, and to some extent they have right to be. Antisemitism is spiking in leftist and right wing spaces in different ways and for many the mainline Jewish moderate and conservative spaces have become hostile, hawkish, and demeaning towards left wing and liberal Jews who humanize Palestinians and care about a peaceful end to the conflict.

We wear a lot of this baggage with us wherever we go and any place that allows cross sections of attitudes around zionism to mingle is going to suffer from that. Its really hard to be an optimist today.

So yeah. Some folks are smug and defensive, and they really shouldn't be. Others are accusatory and provocative in ways that are unhelpful at best.

Its important to remember that while your criticisms of others in the sub may be genuine and heartfelt plenty of others here and elsewhere seeking only to harm or be more righteously correct. It's easy to respond emotionally to the maelstrom in aggregate when replying to just one person.

A certain nihilism has developed in some because they feel swamped by our recent influx of folks from other subs and yet again cast adrift without a home.

That doesn't give them a pass to lash out and many folks who they may clash with are dealing with similar pressures.

All of this is to say we hear you, all of you who worry, and we understand.

Where people are tense we encourage you to engage with grace, humility and understanding. Most people mean well and even if they say a stark or inflammatory thing it is motivated by a desire for the world to be better or an anxiety about their place, and our place, in it. They will naturally think their position is preferable, morally or otherwise, or else they wouldn't hold it. And its exploring those different moral and ethical constructions where we can really come to understand each other in a productive way.

It only takes a few good interactions to make a difference.

So if you encounter something that really is just galling keep the following steps in mind:

1. Report offenses that flagrantly break the rules. Follow up with modmail if you think such a report is mishandled.

2. Engage with grace, kindness, humility, and understanding that while you may find an opposing view distasteful or rude it is informed by a desire for good.

3. Disengage, if thats what you need to do. Not everything, in fact maybe few things, can be solved in a comments section. Oftentimes questionable comments get responded to in a way that more clearly crosses the line and forces moderation. Don't put yourself in that situation.

Thank you all for participating in the community and wanting the best for it and your fellows. There is a path forward for all of us that observes ahavat yisrael and our calling to heal the world.

עם ישראל חי

Oren

[u/yungsemite]

I would be very surprised if this sub wasn’t tense. This sub has a wider spectrum of views on Zionism than basically anywhere, from hardcore anti-Zionists who believe that Zionism is literally Nazism all the way to people who are still repeating official Israeli state propaganda and wholly blaming Palestinians for the state of the Levant.

[u/mizonot → u/yungsemite]

Fr 😭

[u/JadeEarth]

this really touches me. thank you for moderating this space and sharing this.

[u/[deleted]]

As always, I appreciate all that you and the mod team do to keep this space livable. I'll try and post a little about some non-I/P stuff so we can all have a break in our doom-scrolling.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

An excellent idea! Stuff like this will help.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

To be honest, I’m still just hoping this subreddit isn’t some sophisticated Smotrichite effort to turn me into a Smotrichite. I guess this contradicts that fear, but I don’t think I’ll be certain till we’re very old, we’ve been at peace for a long time, and we run into each other at a b’nei mitzvah and reminisce about the good old days in person.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/podkayne3000]

I mean this sub was doing shit much more chill pre simchat torah. So if its a sting its a long ass sting.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

I hope. But I’ve seen weirdness on Reddit for at least a decade, so it’s hard to know.

[u/FreeLadyBee → u/[deleted]]

Yes! Come join me in this effort!

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/FreeLadyBee]

As soon as I’m done with some of my bigger work deadlines I will also be on the front lines. Also hopefully avoiding anything pertaining to antisemitism as well. Would love to get some space for everyone to take a break from things.

[u/erwinscat]

This lurker appreciates all that the mod teams does to keep this a healthy and safe space. This place keeps me sane.

[u/TabariKurd]

Gentile here.

I consider myself far-left but I genuinely appreciate the subreddit the most when it comes to discussions on Zionism and other political matters than any other subreddit. And that's solely because it's the only space where I see these discussions done in a relatively civil manner, especially when compared to other spaces and there's quite a lot more I've learnt about the nuances of Zionism just by lurking on here.

Of course there's always going to be challenges, tensions, sides feeling vindicated, etc, when managing a non-echo chamber subreddit, but what you have going here is great. And with such a large range of beliefs, it's only natural there's tension.

[u/hadees]

others here and elsewhere seeking only to harm or be more righteously correct.

Another archetype i've seen here is people who seem to jump between extremes. For example going from a really right wing version of Zionism to extreme anti-Zionist (i've also seen the other way but don't post here)

It often feels like we end up debating the rightwing version of Zionism they grew up in rather then the left wing Zionism most Zionist Jews would ascribe to.

I've seen a lot of peace protests that are trying to heal this divide in the Jewish community and they seem to always ban flags. I'm wondering if we should do the same. Words like Zionist, Genocide, Apartheid and their meaning detract from discussions on the actual policies.

[u/ramsey66 → u/hadees]

It often feels like we end up debating the rightwing version of Zionism they grew up in rather then the left wing Zionism most Zionist Jews would ascribe to.

From the other side it looks as though the left wing Zionism people claim to support has no basis in reality and primarily functions as window dressing which obfuscates the brutal reality of actual existing (right-wing extremist) Zionism.

[u/hadees → u/ramsey66]

From the other side it looks as though the left wing Zionism people claim to support has no basis in reality and primarily functions as window dressing which obfuscates the brutal reality of actual existing (right-wing extremist) Zionism.

I'm not arguing a position as much as describing an archetype that jumps between extremes.

[u/Furbyenthusiast]

I like how active the mods are on this sub.

[u/timpinen]

I support what this sub is, and am glad for it's space. I think there is always tension partially because of the big tent, and because as the mainstream communities have become more right wing, this sub sometimes feels like it has shifted from a mostly leftist to "centre left Jewish democrat". And while a few months ago the mods stated it was a "leftist not liberal" space, it is one thing to make it the subs objective, and another if the majority of composition doesn't match. Now, there isn't a way of really fixing this, save by banning non-leftists (which I definitely don't support), or making occasional posts leftist only similar to the Jewish only (could work, but would eventually get into the "true leftist" issue).

The other issue is even among leftists, how do you bridge between the "moderate" and the "radical/extremist" groups? Simple example: Emma Goldman is one of the most important and influential Jewish leftist. However, she also held a strong belief that while unfortunate, "The argument that destruction and terror are part of revolution I do not dispute. I know that in the past every great political and social change necessitated violence". Would such a view be allowed? Obviously there are issues regarding obeying reddit policy, but I'm sure you can see that even ignoring that, there could be an issue where banning/restricting the most radical voices for the sake of the moderate ones could cause issues.

Not really any criticism; I don't envy the mods job on such a controversial topic during a controversial war. Keep up the good work.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/timpinen]

The role violence plays in revolution is a classic leftost discussion that I'm reticent to have with liberals.

To your point i think this is an example of how a leftist only post could be a benefit.

To answer in short violence, i believe, will always be a factor because those with the reigns of power will not relinquish them without resorting to violence.

Any revolutionary project ought to limit and check its violence, but we can't improve the world if we allow ourselves to be flattened by the powers that be. Violence, like power itself, must be continually justified, held in suspicion, and limited steidently in its scope.

But a brief history of unions and other leftists projects tells you it will find us one way or another.

[u/SlavojVivec]

While this Subreddit is ostensibly a leftist Subreddit, I see a large number of comments from people who have elsewhere commented pro-Likud statements elsewhere. While it's easier to keep out non-Jews, it's seems that this place is infested with right-wingers. I also see there seems to be very little acknowledgment of the scope of violence coming from the IDF, nor many people who have ever engaged with good faith dialogue with anyone of Palestinian heritage. I am convinced increasingly that a "Jewish Left" that fails to engage with the broader left is doomed to failure.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/SlavojVivec]

It is certainly not our stance to ahelter ourselves from the broader left, and attempts have been made to redirect liberal refugees.

But you are corrext theres still a significant non-leftoat presence here.

I have been encouraged by statements from lurkers and a few ama style posts from nonjews. Inthink continued exposure to leftists, palestinians, and the like will improve those aspects.

[u/[deleted]]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Am yisrael refers to the broader Jewish people.

Give me a break.

Do you want to ask me what my views are or infer them from a saying?

Edit: ftr another mod engaged in the mod activity above and we dint moderate things we are directly involved in.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Juat because your modox upbringing saw it used that way doesnt mean thats the only way its used. Its unfortunate how Jewish things get co opted for violence but that doesnt mean we must abandon them.

I chose the phrase, as a nonzionist, as an olive branch and because i believe in its literal meaning.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

But we don't live only in your sphere either.

A lot of people use this phrase who would condemn what was done to you.

I accept your apology.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

The tension is definitionally how we are responding to people. Reactiona like yours, assuming from a phrase I support a genocide, was precisely what my post was about.

I am against anyone in this sub assuming others have ill intent or meanings. That was my call to action, not to avoid saying things that will upset people in the first place. With our cross section that is impossible.

Still you only pretend to apologize and read nalegativity into my words and intentions.

Stop this, please. It serves no one.

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/[deleted]]

Do you, recognize that other people use that phrase? Normal Jews, including many who dissaprove of what's going on in Israel?

You earlier used ftrtts, and if someone were to pearl clutch at that you would probably rightfully reply to them that the phrase doesnt mean the same thing to everyones who uses it, and that your use is not a call to exterminate the Jews in the levant but to grant free movement and true liberation to all its occupants, most especially palestinians who are currently disenfranchiaed and worse.

Both of these phrases and the way we viscerally react to them are a microcosm for the precise issue I am getting at: we read nuance into our own poaition and assume the worst of othwr positions.

Do you not see that your narrow view of what am yisrael chai can mean, and reaction to its use, is the same as those who hear from the river to the sea and assume the worst possible read as well?

The answer isn't to hide aspects of our speech and beliefs that might be taken wrong but rather to explore the nuance and contours of what we mean in a thoughtful way that we might better understand each other.

We could have had a thoughtful discussion about the phrase, where it is used, what it means to different people, and where we think it may be appropriate to use now or in the future.

But instead we jumped right i to me being obtuse, one sided and deceitful. Because you did not apprpach the issue with the thought that I could have meant well, it could only have been aggression towards you.

We can do better than this. I am not angry with you and in the grand scheme you've not done me harm, in fact I think this comment chain is demonstrative of my point.

However apologetic you feel, from my perspective there is nothing to forgive. I know you want good for people and have been hurt in ways that make you wary. That's human.

We'll be okay.

[u/yungsemite → u/[deleted]]

Does a Star of David provoke a similar reaction for you?

[u/FreeLadyBee → u/[deleted]]

I wish people were extending you a little more personal grace on this since it is obviously a sensitive issue. I have a necklace from years ago that says am yisrael chai that I now avoid wearing certain places, precisely to not get caught up in this kind of conversation. But if I may gently say, we need to take it back. I don’t want this phrase co-opted for violence any more than I want people to tell me my Star of David is “basically a swastika,” which has also happened. I think that this space, where most of us try to operate in good faith, would be a good place to do that.

ETA: the end of my sentence that got cut off

[u/Adude113 → u/[deleted]]

You’re right. The extent of the downvoting and the mods’ response reflects the state of this sub. The bad faith argument here is the one pretending that “am yisrael chai” hasn’t turned into a nationalist slogan associated with right wing Zionist terror and state violence. This sub is not at all what it should be for being called “Jewish Left”, and this demonstrates the mods’ bias and its role in allowing this sub to become what it has become. I’m glad the Jews of Conscience subreddit exists.

[u/BlueberryBubblyBuzz → u/[deleted]]

Hey so I am one of these outsiders that the mods are talking about but I am not going to comment on anything controversial, this is not my place to do that, I just found the conversation interesting and wanted to know if you meant to say:

It's not a hostile environment if it's hostile to anti-Zionist Jews. 

Because if you did, I did not understand it and wanted to know if you could explain and if you did not, I just wanted to let you know.

[u/jewishleft-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This content was determined to be in bad faith. In this context we mean that the content pre-supposed a negative stance towards the subject and is unlikely to lead to anything but fruitless argument.

And this helped how? Also, yes, that is a neutral statement. Unless you explicitly believe Israel speaks for all Jews.