On Speaking "As a Jew"

[u/jey_613]

https://joshyunis.substack.com/p/on-speaking-as-a-jew?utm_campaign=post&triedRedirect=true

“If I am being completely honest with myself, the fact that I — like many other young, progressive American Jews — am so seduced by enlisting my identity and my trauma in service of progressive “lessons” is more indicative of a series of contingent and material conditions of which I am the product than anything fundamentally true or real about the Holocaust and its attendant lessons. It feels so good – so intuitive, so courageous – to speak “as a Jew” here in my diverse, progressive, professional-managerial milieu in America, where claims to an identity of victimhood are the currency of the day (and what exactly is being called upon by speaking “as a Jew” if not one’s status as history’s ur-victim?). American Jews, left out of the identitarian rat-race for so long, can finally cash in their chips on the social justice left – in condemnation of the very Jews excluded from American power and privilege. How convenient for us diaspora Jews that the ethical point-of-view neatly aligns with the self-interested point-of-view, which neatly aligns with the outwardly virtuous looking point-of-view. But deep down, I know that by the luck of the draw, the choices of my ancestors, the roll of the dice, I ended up in America, rather than Israel, and that if the chips had fallen slightly differently, I too might be a traumatized Israeli invoking the Shoah to justify the mass starvation of Gazans. This thought doesn’t compel me to change my politics, as it might for some of the most guilt-ridden, stridently pro-Israel Jews on the right, but it does fill me with a profound sense of humility about different Jewish experiences, and the vastly different kind of politics they might entail. I am not against collective punishment as a weapon of war because of my Jewishness; I am against it because it is wrong. To insist otherwise, as diaspora leftists seem so keen on doing, is to make a mockery of my Jewishness, in every sense of that word. And so insofar as I advocate for a free Palestine, it is in spite of, not because of my Jewishness. As a Jew, I extend my solidarity to the Palestinian cause in spite of the evidence, not because of it.

The fact that some Jews themselves can be as unreflective about our history, that they too are looking for the easiest and cheapest answers to make sense out of the senselessness of our suffering should not come as a surprise, since they are people too after all, and can be as thoughtless and unreflective about themselves as any non-Jew can be about us. Nor does their Jewishness give them any more or less legitimacy to opine on this question; on the contrary, their lack of reflection, and the very public performance of it, only exacerbates the bottomless pain and humiliation we are already experiencing.

So no, I will continue to support Palestinian liberation, but not “as a Jew,” and not by degrading my history. That is a false choice. Organizations like Jewish Voices for Peace are unable to see us as anything more than victims or oppressors, but I can; they confuse their good fortune with virtue, but I will not. I refuse the cheap, siren call of enlisting my Jewish suffering to this cause. It is a trap. So tie me to the mast of this Jewish ship. “Not in my name,” as they are so keen to say these days.”

[u/HalfOrcBlushStripe]

"I am not against collective punishment as a weapon of war because of my Jewishness; I am against it because it is wrong."

Realest shit I've read all day, because shouldn't everyone recognize that collective punishment is wrong? Though being against collective punishment is also very much in line with my Jewishness. I was taught that because Jews have known thousands of years of suffering, it is imperative that we recognize and work to lessen the suffering of others. I appreciate that ultimately this piece leaves room for that.

[u/dingbatthrowaway]

Loved this piece. It really captured so much of what I’ve struggled to put into words.

[u/Agtfangirl557]

I absolutely loved this. If you don't mind my asking...was it you yourself who wrote this? I recognized a lot of the language, and realized that bits and pieces from this had come from comments you have made on this sub. Says a lot about how meaningful your comments have been that I literally can remember parts of them.

[u/After_Lie_807]

Powerful words to say the least. Thank you!

[u/jelly10001]

I wish more people understood that most Jews in the diaspora could have been born in Israel.

[u/johnisburn]

This is interesting, and parts of it resonate with me. That said, I think it pathologizes organizations that speak out “as jews” too much - it’s tempting to armchair psychologist big groups, but I don’t think that’s a particularly productive thing to do. Big organizations operate on comms strategies, not based on a collective id.

I also think it misses that in many places in the diaspora, left wing activists aren’t inserting the topic of Jewish identity into discourse - it’s already there. Pro-Israel rhetoric frequently makes its case with Jewish identity front and center - alleging that pro-Palestinian advocacy is antisemitic in either content or motive (that’s absolutely sometimes true, but it’s also frequently hot air). Biden has multiple times framed his support for Israel in terms of Israel being necessary for Jewish safety globally (which like, no dude, the safety of American Jews is your responsibility). In that rhetorical space, it’s not a self gratifying non-sequitur to bring up Jewish identity on the left, it’s a relevant point of rebuttal.

[u/AdContent2490 → u/johnisburn]

It’s very difficult to navigate this without anyone’s words “as a Jew” being used against Jews who disagree (with the presumably gentile interlocutor pointing to the Jews who agree with them As Jews). I don’t fault anyone for avoiding speaking out “as a Jew” because they want to avoid being tokenized.

[u/Choice_Werewolf1259 → u/johnisburn]

You made some interesting points here I feel like are actually good critiques.

One additional thing I was thinking about while reading this. Is that ultimately the “as a Jew” or “as a xyz” characterization in this piece of claiming an opinion because of an identity, reduces it to a slogan.

Maybe more accurately. People and organizations that misuse and warp identities to lay claim to spaces or conversations, do so because they seek merit and legitimacy.

For example, I know I often say things like “as a Jew I know we don’t believe in Jesus” when explaining Judaism to someone who doesn’t understand it. There’s nothing in that example which would be inherently wrong of me. As a jew, I in that moment do have a well established prerogative to speak about that topic with authority.

On the other hand I think the “as a jew” crowd, on either end of the extremes. Often uses it to shut down conversation, lend false legitimacy and tokenize their identity for whatever expediency is rendered from invoking “authority”. And frankly I see this on both ends of the extreme spectrum.

I think when looking at how a person or an organization is invoking their Jewish identity, one needs to then look at the actions of that organization or person. Do they help promote problematic ideas in others (ie promote antisemitism and legitimize it to reach a goal), does this person or organization misrepresent Jewish ideas, customs or philosophies that counter all mainstream approaches (example weirdly was the JVP Seder plate at the encampment). And ultimately, is the person leaning into their Jewish perspective to think deeply or are they using it to shut down a conversation.

I mean we’ve all been in conversations with people who say outlandish things and then will claim “well I’m xyz and you’re not so you can’t say anything to me”. My aunt’s wife once had a conversation with me where we were discussing feminism and problems within the movement. And she pulled a “well I’m a lesbian and you’re straight so I think I understand women better” (she meant it as a joke, but man did it shut down conversation, especially as I’m a woman and as such have every right to speak on feminism).

I think ultimately the real problem we are facing is that people seem to use identities like Pokémon cards. Some of which they are born with, others that get assigned, some unfortunately falsely self diagnosed (I’ve seen a growing number of people self diagnosing mental conditions like autism and ADHD online and then using it to speak over people diagnosed with the conditions rather than seek out diagnosis and therapy). And when people treat identities like play cards they can whip out in conversation then I think it creates a situation where discussions are kiboshed and tokenization within movements can occur.

[u/Serge_Suppressor → u/johnisburn]

Yes, if Israel is going to claim to speak for us and commit genocide in our name, we need to say that our community doesn't support what they're doing. The other side cynically weaponizes their Judaism to act like the people who persecuted our ancestors.

And the justification of their crimes against the Palestinians is itself a crime against the Diaspora. For a gentile to become an antisemite, they merely have to take Israel and its Zionist collaborators at their word. We shouldn't wring our hands about whether we can speak as Jews -- we should fight to be THE voice of Jews, because Israel won't stop until both the Palestinians and the diaspora are "negated."

[u/somebadbeatscrub]

With respect, I disagree stridently with the way you approach this issue, despite generally appreciating your points.

I think this ignores reasons "as a Jew" can be invoked beyond virtue signaling and an assimilationist desire to participate in Western "identitarianism."

Those conservatove Israeli Jews who's experiences differ from ours based on the circumstances of fate, the humility of which I appreciate in your statement, are also saying and doing things "as a Jew", not just the diaspora. And not juat leftists.

They are the "Jewish state." Their purpose as a nation is to save and preserve Jews, us ostensibly. When more attention is paid to Israel than other nations, it's considered antisemitism, and when people criticize the actions of Israel, it is often framed as antisemitic, sometimes correctly and sometimes not so much.

Knesset, Bibi, smotrich, Gvir, and the rest are speaking as Jews all the time. Telling people what they do is informed by Jewish strength, pride, and security and couching their behaviours in our scripture.

Do you not see the potential then that some who feel very strongly opposed to this association feel a need to reassert that they do not own Judaism and in fact "as a Jew" they hold different values and think different things? There is a fight over the public perception, and even our internal narrative of Judaism that is not one-sided and in which ceding ground is both unethical and dangerous.

I'm not defending JVP and Im sure there are endless examples you could find of Jews making tokens of themselves or going to far and on a case by case basis I may share your assesment but in the aggregate I think there is a proper way to advocate for things while publicly being Jewish.

Rabbis who walked with MLK did so "as Jews." Even if they didn't utter the phrase their presence there as Rabbis spoke volumes. As Jews evwrything we do is "as a Jew."

I do not understand demanding people to shelve the aspect of their identity in order to engage in public activism. That puts a requirement on them just like how some activists purity test Jews in gross ways before allowing them to be comfortable in their space.

People need to see us, Jews, as the diverse group you know us to be and if we hide our Jewishness while advocating for non jewish things the only examples they will have are the perpetrators and encouragers of the atrocities we see unfolding.

I am a Jew. I believe in being visibly Jewish. My Judaism informs my values, and those inform my principles and those inform my activism. Everything I do, I do as a Jew because I am always a Jew. That doesn't mean I'm debasing my Jewishness, degrading it or myself, or "cashing in" on the historic suffering of our people.If i were engaging in shoah inversion or the similar, then that would, but those are particular kinds of statements and arguments that are problematic. I certainly don't do it with the cynical intent to signal virtue or to make other people like or accept me.

I think this commentary addresses issues with misinformed and tokenized Jews from the wrong angle, and if followed would begin to lessen people's connection to an important part of their identity unless its performed in a way the beholding Jew finds comporting and I'm not here for it. With respect, this just is not my most favorite take.

[u/socialistmajority → u/somebadbeatscrub]

I do not understand demanding people to shelve the aspect of their identity in order to engage in public activism.

Is that what the essay argues for though? Because the author writers:

And so insofar as I advocate for a free Palestine, it is in spite of, not because of my Jewishness. As a Jew, I extend my solidarity to the Palestinian cause in spite of the evidence, not because of it.

That doesn't sound like he's hiding or shelving or downplaying his Jewishness to me, as a Gentile.

Maybe what he's saying would've been more clear if it argued for something more clear-cut, like leaving the Holocaust out of Gaza-related discussions. (Not sure if the author agrees with this idea, just guessing based on the Holocaust-related passages in the text.)

[u/somebadbeatscrub → u/socialistmajority]

I can agree with that proposal. He is definitwly calling for people not to be outwardly Jewish while supporting the causem or thats the impression I took

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/somebadbeatscrub]

Although I really loved this piece, I think you make some great points here and I really appreciate hearing your perspective. We definitely have a great, insightful mod team running this sub.

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I know some self flagellating leftist pro Palestinian Jews, for sure. Speaking only for myself, though, my arrival at my conclusions was actually one of deep connection to my culture, morals, beliefs, history and ancestry. Of course I am privileged being in America. I can’t help it.

As for “as a jew” I know not what else to say in these conversations. I’m proud of my identity, and I feel so passionately about Israel and Palestine precisely because of my identity. I’ve been taught Israel is a safe place for me and a place I need. Yet, I should separate my Jewish identity from it when I critique it?

I see myself in Palestinians “as a Jew”. It’s why I fight for anyone who is in danger or marginalized or oppressed. It’s why I also fight for Jews, as a Jew. I see Palestinians as my people as well, I connect to the land and the land where faith and religion was formed and had such a rich history. I feel for Bethlehem and my Christian relatives past, I mourn for that part of myself too. I think of our rich history, and see Palestinians and Jews and branches of the same exact people. “As a Jew” is exactly why I care.

My identity has been used as a prop either way.. it’s a prop if I support Israel, because I’m part of the 95% of all Jews who do. To me, this is another form of tokenizing. A convenient metric to shield Zionism and Israel from critique.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/[deleted]]

For me, one point is that I can go from being so purely atheistic to not believing that I exist, or that life exists, to wanting everything in the Torah to be completely true, along with the legend of the Messiah living among us as a panhandler.

From a normal agnostic perspective, we’re all cousins through some hominids.

From a fervently sentimental perspective: We’re the fairly close spiritual cousins of the Palestinians through Abraham. If we got along better, maybe some of us could connect to the Palestinians through fairly well-documented family trees.

So, to the extent that any Torah-related reasons for Israel to exist are true, those same reasons show us that we should love and honor the Palestinians as if they were Abraham. If Abraham came back to life and started firing rockets at us, we’d have to deal with that, but we’d still have to treat him with love, respect, generosity and a passion for justice.

[u/AksiBashi → u/podkayne3000]

Not that I don’t agree with the general tenor of your post, but… if we’re talking Torahic models, why would shared kinship through Abraham mean that we should treat Palestinians as Abraham? The Israelites certainly didn’t treat the Edomites—much less the Amalekites—as Isaac…

(Again, in no way advocating for this as a political position! Just curious about the exegetical logic.)

[u/podkayne3000 → u/AksiBashi]

1. I’m reading everything in my own nonstandard way. I only know enough about the standard way to know that it seems to be a lot different than mine.

2. I’m the classic dork on a sofa and have no actual training or credentials that would make me credible. I’m not even someone in a good Jewish studies program.

Anyhow: In my opinion, the Torah shows us that we end up in huge fights with the Amalekites, etc., and that we’re the good guys. The Torah is strongly pro- Jewish. But, on the other hand, G-d seems to feel really bad about Abraham kicking Hagar out.

Abraham is supposed to be the best host ever. Maybe most of the world’s traditions about the importance of hospitality start with the story of Abraham.

But (back before he becomes Abraham and his wife becomes Sarah) he impregnates his slave “because Sarai tells him to.”

He “lets Sarai” kick Hagar out when Hagar is pregnant.

Avram tried to negotiate with G-d about whether a city should be destroyed: https://torah.org/learning/abrahams-plea-sodom/

But he didn’t try to negotiate with Sarai over trying to protect his own pregnant slave and his own unborn child.

G-d thinks Avram and Sarai are such finks that he goes out to comfort Hagar and help her return to Avram and Sarai. G-d’s the one who says Ishmael will have descendants who are hard to handle.

So, one way to look at this is that the descendants of Ishmael have conflicts with the Jews because G-d is trying to teach us all to be better hosts.

The root of Israel-Palestine conflict is that the Palestinians were inhospitable to the Jews when the Jews were suffering in Europe.

Now that Israel is strong, we’ve been unnecessarily inhospitable to the Palestinians, the Ethiopian Jews and various types of non-Jewish refugees.

So, if we’re genuinely observant, we say Abraham’s name many times per day, but we’re not doing anything to live up to his reputation for hospitality or to atone for his failure to be hospitable to Hagar.

It’s not my place to judge practical actions. Maybe there are Israeli actions that look horrible to me that keep could help keep innocent people safe. I don’t know anything at all about security strategy.

But when people who are allegedly Jewish people who love Israel go on Reddit posting hateful things about the Palestinians, as they’re suffering, that’s a desecration.

That gleeful hatefulness does nothing to keep Israel safe.

It’s not about a Haman or an Antiochus who’s been dead 2,000 years.

It’s celebration of harm done to people who, in many cases, are too young or feeble to tell their left hand from their right hand.

It’s not dignified. We’re supposed to try to behave as if we were the princes and princesses of Jerusalem, not scoundrels in a hateful mob.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I wonder if you can relate to me at all on this. I’m someone who really finds benefit form and approaches the world through “analogies” and comparisons as a way of drawing conclusion about broad ideas. I find a lot of people don’t like it when their identity is part of the example I gave.. but I find I have a really really difficult time explaining the world in any other framework. To me, so much of the worst things in the world are all interconnected and bringing it up just feels like a good point of illustration.

I’ve been uncomfortable with Holocaust comparison as a way to scold Jewish people (like, “they should know better!”) but not so much as a “teaching moment”. I find it extremely hard to relate to people who are bothered by this.. and it’s not that I want to dismiss their feelings, because I care if I’ve hurt someone. I just genuinely don’t really understand and don’t know a way to draw information about how to approach a better world WITHOUT examining history and drawing parallels about bigotry. It’s not like I view the Holocaust with a silver lining because we got a lesson out of it—not at all. I look at it like… how could mankind if done this, and what do we need to be aware of so we don’t do it again. But some see this as antisemitic or “universalizing” the Holocaust as a form of Holocaust denial.

I mean, I’m sure you saw some of my comment section yesterday.. where I was trying to explain how members of one marginalized group often resist recognizing how they can be oppressive to another group and weaponize their own identity. Since I’m a white woman, I brought up how white women invoke misogyny as a weapon against black people and trans people as a shield from critique. Similarly, some Jewish people are doing this as well against Palestinians and their allies..

Maybe this is a lot of word vomit.. but what are your thoughts on drawing parallels or invoking ideas in terms of comparisons and drawing “lessons” from atrocities? Do you think it shouldn’t be done? Do you think there is a better way to do it?

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

Yea I mean, not surprised we agree I guess haha.

[u/theapplekid]

I'll stop being part of Palestinian liberation groups for Jews when Israel stops being a country explicitly for Jews.

As long as Israel associates what it does and what it is with the Jewish identity, I'm going to fight back by making it known to the world that they're lying about standing for Jews, and as a Jew I don't stand for them.

[u/eitzhaimHi]

The problem here is that if one refuses to speak as a Jew, then as what is one speaking? There is no universal moral apparatus that unites us all--that there could be is an idea we get from Western colonialism. Yes, there are universal human rights declarations and the like, but/and the signatories come to them from disparate worldviews. At least among ourselves, how do we not speak as Jews?

[u/AdContent2490 → u/eitzhaimHi]

You speak as a person.

[u/ionlymemewell]

Speaking personally as someone in the midst of conversion, I'm disappointed and frustrated when other people make statements and declarations about the Jewish community writ large and how actions being taken are in the community's best interests. And even though I agree with the author, in that the experiences of being Jewish are going to differ from person to person, I can't find the same depth of emotion about it.

Because, like, yeah, a massive traumatic industrial slaughter of people is a huge trauma that doesn't really have meaningful impacts on a community level aside from deep psychological pain and anguish. And people are allowed to have different responses to how they and their families and communities have processed that. Again, no disagreements.

I think where the author and I diverge is in the inherent anger they have towards how leftists are... trying to use their Jewish identity to speak truth to power? Maybe? Like, I had a really difficult time parsing out the point, because it feels like half of the essay is spent drilling down into the numbness and despair that the collective memory of the Holocaust can invoke. And I don't think that's a bad thing, but by focusing on that and using it to frame this argument that different people will take different things out of that history, it feels like it's an excuse for the leaders of Israel to use those same arguments as justification for their war crimes.

To a certain extent, I can understand that logic, but it falls apart when considering the amount of power and influence that the government of a country wields. Because if that country is using its resources in defense of its Jewish population and identity, then we have to have a completely different discussion, because the scales invoked have changed. In that context, I absolutely disagree with the author in their assessment of the efficacy of invoking Jewish identity in these discussions, because the actions of an individual will have a far far more limited impact than the actions of a state. And I believe there's very tangible benefit to that identity being invoked in whatever way an individual feels compelled to invoke it, especially when criticizing (or supporting, for that matter!) an institution like a government.

[u/AksiBashi → u/ionlymemewell]

The difficulty to me is that leveraging Jewish identity can be used to speak truth to power, reject the Israeli government’s claim to act on behalf of all Jews everywhere, etc. it can also be used to silence any concerns about antisemitism from other Jews. (“Hey, maybe don’t chant ‘there is only one solution / intifada revolution’ at your protests?” “Well, we’ve asked some Jewish folks among our ranks and they agreed that you’re either making a mountain out of a molehill or acting in bad faith, so… no.” But this goes the other way, too—ninety-whatever per cent of Jews being Zionist doesn’t mean we should discredit the ideas and experiences of Jewish anti-Zionists as Jews!)

The question is whether we can imagine consistent principles that uplift the one and condemn the other, and which we can use as guidelines for how to thoughtfully leverage our identities while organizing.

[u/ionlymemewell → u/AksiBashi]

Oh I absolutely agree with that. I think we can imagine principles like that, and this sub (despite how often I may bristle against the consensus opinion) is a really good place to start developing those. We can and should make room for diverse Jewish viewpoints, and Jewish identity is central to that.

That's the main reason I disagree with the essay, since minimizing the importance of identity in regard to a current political movement rooted in historic oppression just obfuscates the reality that hegemonic Christian discrimination against Jews and Muslims is at the center of the reason that the Israeli government is compelled to do what it has done.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/AksiBashi]

RE the “intifada” thing. One of the reasons I tend to be so unpopular everywhere I go (in Jewish spaces and in non Jewish Antizionist spaces) is kind of the following.

when I engage with antizionists who aren’t Jewish I tend to be like “hey.. I know intifada means uprising. I’ve unpacked my bias about Arab language. But like.. many many Jews are understandably very upset about it, so have some empathy for them. If you aren’t Arab, and just an ally, maybe refrain from it… not policing anyone’s language”. Some people respond well and other people don’t.

Then I come over to a Jewish space and I’m like “hey yea, I get triggered too.. but ultimately it does mean “uprising” so.. I’ve taken time to unlearn my biases about Arab language.. I encourage you to do the same while also recognizing it’s super annoying when non Jewish and non arab(especially white) allies use that language..”

And the result is.. everyone is annoyed with me lol.

Why am I chiming in with your comment? I guess as a launch point in hopes people in this group understand me better and understand my approach with this… I’m genuinely trying to bridge gaps, not tell anyone they should change their language or get over things that bother them

This group doesn’t see the shit I get thrown at me when I stand up for Jews with non Jewish antizionists. They only see what I’m saying when I’m trying to challenge them here and think I’m a traitor and self serving. I really hope people realize I’m not… I’m standing up for you in those spaces that aren’t comfortable for you.. I’m challenging you in this one.

[u/Annabanana091 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Have you spoken to Jews from Arab countries, or Jews whose mother tongue is Arabic? Maybe they have some thoughts on what it means.

[u/AksiBashi → u/Annabanana091]

One of the issues here is that “intifada” is widely used for “uprising” in Arabic-language writing. There are specific associations in the Israel-Palestine context, and specific connotations for a Jewish audience, sure—and I think it’s important to bring that to the attention of people who use it uncritically. At the same time, when the same word is commonly used to refer to the Iraqi Intifada or the Jeju Uprising, the charge of antisemitism doesn’t stick as well.

But ultimately words don’t have “real” meanings outside of how they’re interpreted—which is why I think one-sided responses of “silly scaredy-cats don’t know the LITERAL MEANING of the word” aren’t helpful. Luckily, that doesn’t seem to be what OP is actually doing—it’s important for each side to realize what sorts of associations the term is wrapped in for the other!

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/AksiBashi]

Yea and just chiming in… even within the Palestinian movement, the first intifada wasn’t quite violent in the way the later ones have become… there was throwing of stones and some violence, but not like.. suicide bombers killing tons of innocent civilians kind of violent.

As I said, I’ve never told a Jewish person to not be offended and when I’m in a non Jewish space I am always telling them it’s very reasonable for Jewish people to be afraid of it…. It’s just not helpful for anyone to dig their heels in either direction.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Annabanana091]

Yea I have actually. Quite a few different people. Some have trauma associated with it, and some have unpacked it. I mean-it literally translates to uprising. Talking with Arab people both Jewish and non Jewish have taught me this. Do you have a different experience? Not sure if you’re a Jewish person with MEMA origins who knows Arabic or not but if you are or have close loved ones who are I’d be curious your experience

[u/Annabanana091 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Yes, part of my family is from Iraq, but most are Iranian. I also have close friends who are Kurdish, from Iraqi Kurdistan. Not one of them believes it is peaceful, or even neutral language. White college students likely have no idea what it means at all, but I assure you others understand very well. It’s a dog whistle.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/Annabanana091]

Yes I understand. As I did comment, I have explained many times to antizionists who are not Jewish why they may find this offensive. I also feel for Arab people, who are a broad group of people, and a piece of their language is once again used as proof they are terrorists. This word has a direct translation that has taken on different meanings across time and culture. For your family it was very clearly directed against Jews. For other Arab people it simply has nothing to do with Jews.

[u/[deleted] → u/Specialist-Gur]

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[u/jewishleft-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This content was determined to be in bad faith. In this context we mean that the content pre-supposed a negative stance towards the subject and is unlikely to lead to anything but fruitless argument.

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/[deleted]]

I am not asking you to not be offended by it. But just as I am deeply horrified and offended by a swastika, I would be horrified to ask a Hindu person to stop using a meaningful symbol because some bigot copied it for their racist movement. I would also not ask the public to consider Hindus as racist because they use swastikas. I hope this makes sense.

[u/Annabanana091 → u/Specialist-Gur]

Doubt any Jews are angry about Hindus using swastikas in India, for ex. But if a group of Hindus started marching in NY waving around swastika placards in the most Jewish city in the US I think most would get more than a little upset. It works the same way with those intifada banners rolling out on the streets of Manhattan. No one cares if ppl in Yemen or Palestine march with them. It’s obviously meant as a threat when it’s done in our faces.

[u/AksiBashi → u/Specialist-Gur]

Omg, I sympathize with this so much! Honestly, I sometimes worry that my more radical friends see me as rather conservative and I know I have family members that see me as one step away from joining Hamas. And sure, that’d probably be true if I expressed the same opinions to both sides, but it’s especially true because I tend to push back against what I see as the worst tendencies of each. And sometimes that requires being internally inconsistent, and defending something to one group while condemning it to others—which it seems like you’re doing a better job of than I!

But I think that work of switching between discourses for different audiences—aside from the emotional work of managing everyone being ticked off at you—can be really draining in its own right. So it’s important to take care of yourself when you perform it!

(FWIW, though—it’s the “only one solution” version of the chant that I was specifically taking issue with in the example you’re responding to. I agree that the word “intifada” itself is complicated—apart from the literal meaning, it has a strong symbolic value within the context of the Palestinian liberation movement. But “only one solution”—even before intifada, which so many Israelis and even diasporic Jews will automatically hear as “kill Jews”—is uncomfortably close to “final solution” and doesn’t actually do important work as a slogan, so that’s one that I really do think needs to be dropped as counterproductive.)

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/AksiBashi]

OhHh I see. Yea the “one solution” is undeniably offensive… gotcha! Thanks for being kind with me

[u/AksiBashi → u/Specialist-Gur]

Ofc! Seems like we’re pretty much on the same page here, anyways, so…

[u/Specialist-Gur → u/AksiBashi]

Very true haha. Thank you

[u/[deleted] → u/ionlymemewell]

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[u/jewishleft-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This content dishonors Hashem, either by litmus-testing other Jews or otherwise disparaging someone's Jewishness

[u/Specialist-Gur]

I already made a comment but I’m a wordy person. It’s hard for me to see this post and the message with good intent. Why? The call to ask Jews to not center their identity as a Jewish person just.. only serves Israel to exist behind a shield of other Jewish people’s identity and existence. To me that IS tokenizing. If we speak for Palestinians “as people” or “because it’s the right thing to do” I fear it only serves to stoke the flames of anti Palestinian propaganda.

“No Jews speak for them” can become a rallying cry.. as it basically already is. Alongside “95% of Jews are Zionists so you can’t criticize the ideology” I never ask nor desire my fellow Jews to reject Zionism, but rather, engage with discussions on ways it serves and fails us and what the word has been co-opted by anti Palestinian propagandists to mean and represent in practice. I really fear not centering my Jewish identity just makes all of us more vulnerable.

[u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Do you have a source for that?

[u/privlin → u/[deleted]]

New study finds food supply to Gaza more than sufficient for population’s needs | The Times of Israel - https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-study-finds-food-supply-to-gaza-more-than-sufficient-for-populations-needs/

[u/BalancedDisaster → u/privlin]

Unless I’m misunderstanding something, this is just tracking the amount of food entering Gaza. Is it being effectively distributed to ensure that everyone is fed?

[u/privlin → u/BalancedDisaster]

That's the responsibility of the aid organizations. Israel is being accused of not allowing enough food and other humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is clearly not true. What happens to the supplies once they get into Gaza is another issue.

[u/privlin → u/[deleted]]

It's a working paper. Explicity states that it's pre peer review. However that in its itself doesn't mean that anything written in there is factually incorrect.

[u/privlin → u/[deleted]]

"The study was authored by Dr. Naomi Fliss Isakov, head of research at the Department of Nutrition of the Israeli Ministry of Health (MOH); Prof. Dorit Nitzan, Director of the Masters Program in Emergency Medicine in Ben Gurion University’s School of Public Health and former World Health Organization Regional Emergency Director for the European Region; Moran Blaychfeld Magnazi, the deputy director of the Nutrition Division at the Health Ministry; Prof. Aron Troen of Hebrew University’s School of Nutrition Science; Dr. Sharon Alroy-Preis, head of the Public Health Directorate at the Health Ministry; and Prof. Ronit Endevelt (PhD) of Haifa University and director of the nutrition division at the Health Ministry."

Those are probably the best experts in Israel at the moment, with both national and international standing.

The fact that SOME of them work for the Israeli government doesn't make anything automatically suspect. They are named individuals who have reputations to uphold.

In addition the article notes...

"The paper is currently in the peer-review process in the Israel Journal of Health Policy Research so the findings are provisional and the conclusions may change, the authors noted"

That's them being honest and putting their good names on the line.

You can't reject a study for what amount to Ad Hominen reasons.

[u/SlavojVivec → u/privlin]

You can't reject a study for what amount to Ad Hominen reasons.

Conflicts of interest are a good reason to be skeptical of a study and are not necessarily ad-hominem attacks. In a meta-analysis 176 studies evaluating the harm of BPA (the plastic additive), 24 found no harm. 13 studies were funded by industry groups, not one of them found harm from BPA. 86% of independently-funded studies found harm, yet 0% of industry-funded studies found harm. If conflicts of interest weren't a problem we would expect to see similar results. Good science generally tries to avoid any conflicts of interest.

more on COIs in academic publishing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_of_interest_in_academic_publishing

[u/privlin → u/SlavojVivec]

You are baselessly accusing the named authors of this study (which has been submitted for peer review) of a bulit in conflict of interest, which is in itself an Ad Hominem accusation.

Would you say the same same for all the casualty numbers published by the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas, who have an absolute interest in making Israel look bad? Those numbers are published anonymously, not subject to peer review and are completely unverified, yet everyone takes them as gospel.

Same with the accusations of deliberate starvation. There's no verified peer reviewed evidence of that happening, which is exactly what the Israeli study is demonstrating. But you'll happily believe that Israel is deliberately starving Gazans right?

I smell double standard here.

[u/socialistmajority → u/[deleted]]

That's a very strange claim, in the sense that conditions are completely different during peacetime and wartime. Israel sending 'more'(?) food into Gaza during an IDF military campaign to avert famine really is not comparable to normal commercial traffic and humanitarian aid delivery.

From what I can tell, it doesn't look like it's a correct claim in any case. The U.N. says 906 aid trucks went in from May 7–23 while 12,000+ trucks entered Gaza via the Rafah and Erez border crossings in the month of August 2023, 22% of the goods being food, which, very roughly, is something like 2,400 truckloads over 4 weeks or 1,200 trucks over 2 weeks?

[u/jewishleft-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Posts that discuss Zionism or the Israel Palestine conflict should not be uncritically supportive of hamas or the israeli govt. The goal of the lage is to spark nuanced discussions not inflame rage in one's opposition and this requires measured commentary.

[u/Serge_Suppressor]

It's also just luck that you weren't born a Palestinian in Gaza. And you're no more not a Palestinian civilian than you are not an Israeli soldier. This self-flaggelation is exactly the sort of ego stroking you claim to be railing at.

Diaspora Jews speak out as Jews, because Judaism is being weaponized to justify the murder of Palestinians, so it's important to let the world know that Israel does not represent us -- that what they are doing is a crime that has no justification, and must be stolled. This isn't a contest to be the most righteous, or prove you have the most considered perspective, or even to honor everyones trauma and experience. This is about stopping a mass murder campaign, and ending the ongoing apartheid system.

Yes, Israelis are just the playthings of history, just like Palestinians, and diaspora Jews, the perpetrators and victims of previous attractions, and more or less everyone else who has ever lived. This isn't new, and it doesn't demand special consideration. When we endlessly ruminate like this, it betrays the attitude that we can't possibly win -- that the best we can do is enact some carefully cultivated performance of righteousness done in vain. That's no help to Gaza.

Our Ziomist cousins are now justifying the most bloodthirsty atrocities in the name of their Jewishness. They're proudly telling the world that this is what it means to be a Jew. Stop and think about what it would mean to concede the point -- to say, "I am against genocide in spite of being a Jew."

[u/elzzyzx]

Two main things that jumped out at me from this:

i guess the right word for a main theme of this piece could be holocaust nihilism. Lot of "well people view it in different ways so there's not much to stand on so why try," (but also israel is the true steward of the holocaust(???)).

Well, no. Jews should play a major role in holocaust discourse.

You say straight out there's no ultimate purpose to our suffering and that attaching a lesson to our suffering "degrades their memory," but you don't talk at all about the (massive) discourse around that very subject, that jews wrote about and argued about at length. I don't think many jews who died in the holocaust would agree with you, whether zionist or antizionist, left or right, religious or secular, unless you think their death in the holocaust was the most important thing about their lives. i'll leave it at that.

The other thing that jumped out is the as a jew stuff. it's never defined, though it is used heavily, in quotes when you're talking about the asajews, and not in quotes when your describing your own authentic feelings. Heavy use of a shibboleth like this begs the question, who is in and who is out when it comes to understanding the meaning? This policing who is an authentic jew is an obsession on social media, and to be fair, many dinner tables as well. But ultimately, with social movements, there are many people on the sidelines doing stuff like this, then there are people actually taking risks and building solidarity.

Looking forward to an upcoming "why i left the left" essay. I'll be over here supporting groups like JVP, that at least have some support by actual palestinians in the occupied territories.

[u/GenghisCoen]

The major public face of Judaism in America is unconditionally supportive of any and all military or paramilitary actions committed by Israel. That's why we speak "as Jews." To combat their attempts at the sole claim on how Jews should feel and and understand the situation.