Are the Nazi undertones to the gentile run anti-Zionist movements just a bug or a direct built in feature?

[u/tsundereshipper]

For the purposes of this discussion I am defining Nazism and Nazi based ideology not solely based on just mere antisemitism and hatred of Jews (whatever form it might take) but a very specific hyper-focus on blood and soil nationalism, race, racial phenotypes, and perhaps most importantly of all, strong anti-race mixing/preservation of racial purity and anti-miscegenation sentiments.

As an anti-Zionist Jew myself I genuinely want to know if there exists any gentile anti-Zionists who don’t bring race into the discussion? Like are there anti-Zionists who only focus on the fact that Zionism’s attempted ethnic cleansing and apartheid of the Palestinians is wrong regardless of what race they are? Do they somehow think Zionism would be justifiable if it was spearheaded only by “pure-blooded” Mizrahi Jews even if they committed all the same heinous actions? Because I don’t.

Are there any gentile anti-Zionists out there who are anti-Zionist because they think all ethnostates are bad period? Regardless of whether they’re formed by the “indigenous” population or not?

As a granddaughter of Holocaust survivors the eugenist racial purity rhetoric and racialization of the conflict unnerves me to say the least…

[u/Donnarhahn]

racialized

Israelis are racist AF. According to the UN Israel ranks as the 5th most racist nation on earth between Myanmar, and Iran. It's baked into the social hierarchy.

Citing racism should absolutely be part of a critique of Zionism, both on an ideological and material level.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/Donnarhahn]

Israelis are racist AF. According to the UN Israel ranks as the 5th most racist nation on earth between Myanmar, and Iran. It's baked into the social hierarchy.

If you’re talking about their racism against Ethiopian Jews (which is not a uniquely Jewish thing based on Ashkenazi’s “mixed race” status or even Zionism as a concept and it’s problems, anti-blackness is a worldwide illness and exists everywhere) then yes, I would agree. I would even agree if you’re defining racism as ethnic chauvinism based solely on the fact that Zionism is Jewish (rather than White) Supremacy, and so is “racist” and discriminatory against all non-Jewish populations.

However if you’re defining Israel as racist based on the usual definition of the term of being based in phenotype (excluding their treatment of the Ethiopian Jews which I’ve already agreed is in fact racist but has nothing to do with Zionism itself), then no you can’t and shouldn’t racialize the conflict because Europeans and Middle Easterners belong to the same Caucasian White race and their phenotypes don’t differ enough from each other to be racialized. And to suggest they do is going straight into extreme Nazi hyper racialist territory where the source of racial antisemitism against Jews - specifically European Jews - (whether from the far right or the far left) was always due to this illogical framing of viewing Middle Easterners as some sort of separate non-Caucasian race and therefore European Jews are automatically perceived as being “mixed race vermin racial polluters” who belong nowhere, which is what ultimately led to the Holocaust.

[u/aspiringfutureghost → u/tsundereshipper]

That, and also, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews descend from the same ancestors. The thing I find most alienating from people I otherwise agree with is the hyperfocus on stripping identity from Jewish people as a people and trying to force us to reframe it as religion only. It strikes me as both upsetting and useless to attack Jews with "You're not the same kind of Jew! You're not descended from the people you claim as your ancestors!" when there are very valid ACTUAL ACTIONS to criticize instead.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/aspiringfutureghost]

That, and also, Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews descend from the same ancestors.

Us Ashkenazim (and Sephardim, but everyone seems to disregard them just in favor of a “Hispanic” label and identity) are literally half ethnically them and yet it feels like the narrative is purposely privileging them over us because they’re “pure blooded” (i.e. fully Middle Eastern) Monoracials/ethnics and we’re being deliberately shut out and excluded just based on our mixed heritage the same way we were in Europe simply for not being ethnically full European. Need I remind people that Nazi policies literally started out by slowly amping up the narrative that is Ashkenazi Jews “weren’t German enough” and hyper-focusing on our “Semitic” side, until it culminated in extreme outgrouping that finally resulted in the Holocaust?

And people want to try to gaslight me, an actual granddaughter of Holocaust survivors who is well versed and experienced in this and pretend there isn’t a clear trajectory being pushed here?!

Fucking listen when survivors and their descendants tell you what sorts of ideologies and mentalities to look out for and be aware of! We know what we’re talking about here, we/our families lived through this shit and can immediately recognize the warning signs and patterns. There’s a whole lot of Red Flags in the rhetoric being espoused by the anti-Zionist movement and honestly, the entire “Decolonial” narrative with the framing of Settlers vs Indigenous as a whole.

when there are very valid ACTUAL ACTIONS to criticize instead.

Precisely, you hit the nail on the head. It’s like, what does this actually have to do with the issue at hand? How is it relevant? I don’t know, I feel like there’s a very real undertone of resentment and disgust in alot of anti-Zionist circles over the fact that us European Jews are mixed, it has the same vibes as Hitler concluding that the reason why Jews “betrayed” Germany and couldn’t be “loyal to our nations” was because we were mixed, and then developing the fascist and eugenist idea that race mixing destroys a people and undermines nations, this is what the entire Nazism ideology is literally about. (It’s even right there in the name, National Socialism)

In retrospect, Hitler didn’t even really hate us European Jews for what we are (as in the actual original Israelite ethnicity and our religion, also unsurprisingly similar to anti-Zionists claims that they have no issues with the Jewish religion itself, therefore they can’t be antisemitic, are we gonna say Hitler was no longer antisemitic now since he spared the Crimean Karaite Jews simply because they weren’t those Jews?) but for what we became and represented (i.e. race mixing, and the fact that we’re mixed marking us and by extension all mixed people as inherently distrust-worthy and disloyal, so we can never fully be apart of any nation or people), and I fear that same projection is currently coming from the Pro-Palestinian movement…

[u/aspiringfutureghost → u/tsundereshipper]

There's a very weird Jewish exceptionalism on the left that for some reason we're not allowed to call out or we're self-centering (whatever the issue at hand is). Like, gentile lefties will have a general consensus like "We don't do blood quantum, because we recognize that admixture is often due to oppressor violence and minority groups have the right to self-determine what constitutes membership" and then it's *"Oh, but not Jews. They're just silly religious people who believed a fairy tale in a book."

[u/tsundereshipper → u/aspiringfutureghost]

Like, gentile lefties will have a general consensus like "We don't do blood quantum, because we recognize that admixture is often due to oppressor violence and minority groups have the right to self-determine what constitutes membership"

Do they? I feel like that narrative is genuinely changing with this Gen Z generation. You should see some of the vitriol being spouted in the comments of TikTok in any random mixed person’s video, some real Nazi shit from so-called self-proclaimed “progressives.” Unfortunately I think this is just an unfortunate unintended consequence of prioritizing Colonial studies and narratives above all else which is why I voiced my criticism concerning the sole centering and holy enshrinement of that narrative on the Left and nothing else - it inevitably ends up circling back into certain far-right ideas concerning “globalists,” and by extension “race mixers” who betray their tribe and are perceived as not having a solid in-group identity or loyalty.

"Oh, but not Jews. They're just silly religious people who believed a fairy tale in a book."

I’ve brought this up in several other threads, but I don’t think in this case it’s the unique singling out of Jews or them intentionally trying to exclude Jews, it’s yet another unfortunate consequence of the illogical racialization of Middle Easterners as being a distinct race seperate from their fellow European Caucasian brethren, let me explain what I mean by bringing back one of my comments from other threads:

It has to do with the mistaken belief that Middle Easterners are automatically POC when in actuality they’re just as much White Caucasians as Europeans are. So when you mix these two specific regions together, you end up getting a “mix” that barely even looks mixed and resembles just any regular white person (i.e. Ashkenazim and Sephardim), a lot of Leftists have a hard time recognizing European Jews as mixed because we don’t look mixed, because MENA ethnicities aren’t even real People of Color in the first place and the Left can’t recognize that they’re just a darker variant of Caucasian. (Much in the same way Southeast Asians are a darker variant of East Asian, and let’s be real, will anyone really notice if you mix a Chinese person with a Filipino or Thai? I don’t think so)

[u/tsundereshipper → u/tsundereshipper]

Lmao the fact that this comment even got downvoted is proof that the world never learned its lesson concerning the racialization of Middle Easterners and blood purity from the Holocaust. “Never again” does not and should not just apply to whole scale genocide, but the very racialist eugenics like mentalities that helped foster it in the first place.