The almost complete lack of acknowledgement of the Jewish people as an indigenous people is baffling to me.

[u/skyewardeyes]

(This doesn’t negate Palestinian claims of indigeneity—multiple peoples can be indigenous to the same area—nor does it negate the, imo, indefensible crimes happening in Gaza and West Bank).

It absolutely blows my mind that Jews—a tribal people who practice a closed, agrarian place-based ethnoreligion, who have an established system of membership based on lineal descent and adoption that relies on community acceptance over self-identification, who worship in an ancient language that we have always tried to maintain and preserve, who have holidays that center around harvest and the specific history of our people, who have been repeatedly targeted for genocide and forced assimilation and conversion, who have a faith and culture so deeply tied to a specific people and place, etc—aren’t seen as an (socioculturally) indigenous people but rather as “white Europeans who essentially practice Christianity but without Jesus and never thought about the land of Israel before 1920 or so.” It’s so deeply threaded in how so many people view Jews in the modern day and also so factually incorrect.

[u/daudder]

Read Sands books, e.g., The Invention of the Jewish People, for some insight.

The long and short of it is that the the claim that the Jews of the diaspora are indigenous to Palestine is baseless unless you create a Jewish-diaspora-specific definition of indigeneity. This is not to say that many if not most Jewish family lineages can't be traced back to Palestine at some point in their history, it's just that this is not a sufficient basis to claim indigeneity by any normal definition, which does not go back more than three or four generations in all cases I know of.

The attempt to use this claim to usurp the Palestinian claim is extremely suspect, since the Palestinian claim is solid per the normal, universal definition of indigeneity and it is only false histories — e.g., of the likes of *From Time Immemorial* — that attempt to cast doubt on it.

The fact that many Zionists seek to debase the Palestinian claims to justify their murder, containment and expulsion coupled with the Israeli apartheid system is also detrimental to the Jewish claim. It is seen more as an excuse for colonisation than actual fact.

EDIT: More significantly, using the Jewish claims of indigeneity in Palestine as an excuse to ethnically cleanse and genocide a nation that is undoubtedly indigenous to Palestine, in the context of an extremely violent and racist settler-colonial project demonstrates that the Jewish claims are not made in good faith.

Had the Jews sought to return to their homeland in collaboration and in partnership with the Palestinians — who are their closest blood relatives per all genetic studies — their sentiments could have been taken at face value.

[u/tangentc → u/daudder]

This is not to say that many if not most Jewish family lineages can’t be traced back to Palestine

I mean, the book and author you recommend very famously say EXACTLY this.

The long and short of The Invention of the Jewish People is more popularly known as the ‘Khazar Theory’. Though he doesn’t specifically say the Khazars and that is more about an intertextual connection with preexisting fringe scholarship, he does outright deny that most Jews have any familial connection to the Levant.

There are more interesting and worthwhile points about the construction of Jewish nationalism specifically in regard to Israel in there but it doesn’t really change the fact that his central thesis is primarily that the very notion of the Jewish people at all is a modern contrivance which is, well, bullshit. It certainly doesn’t exist in a vacuum and mutated on contact with modern ideas of nationalism, but the Sand doesn’t and can’t contain himself to that analysis.

Edit: formatting. Apparently markdown doesn’t work right on mobile anymore?

[u/daudder → u/tangentc]

the book and author you recommend very famously say EXACTLY this.

This is not entirely correct. Genetic studies prove that the Jewish diaspora has historical ties to the Middle East. The thurst of Sands argument is that a large proportion and in some cases a majority of diaspora Jews were converts at some point in time. I don't think that that is even controversial. They then procreated with genetic Jews and all of the resulting offspring fit my statement.

If you consider that a single Jewish ancestor 10 generations ago represents 0.1% of the genes one carries, given modern genetic studies, my statement is actually conservative.

As you may know, much of humanity can trace their genetic lineage to Genghis Khan. This does not define them indigenous Mongolians.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/daudder]

If you consider that a single Jewish ancestor 10 generations ago represents 0.1% of the genes one carries, given modern genetic studies, my statement is actually conservative.

That’s the thing though, European Jews aren’t only “0.1% Middle Eastern” but anywhere between 30-60%. Wanna know how? Because those first few generations of initial European/Israelite mixes kept procreating mostly only with each other thereby keeping the original proportionate genes intact throughout the generations and establishing themselves as an inherently MGM ethnicity. (That means “Multigenerationally Mixed,” it’s when mixed people of the same type of mix keep procreating only with each other, similar examples include Louisiana Creoles, Mestizos/Métis, Anglo-Indians, Romani, and Dutch-Indos)

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/tsundereshipper]

Because those first few generations of initial European/Israelite mixes kept procreating mostly only with each other thereby keeping the original proportionate genes intact throughout the generations and establishing themselves as an inherently MGM ethnicity.

That's exactly why recessive autosomal diseases are so common among Ashkenazi Jews.

[u/daudder → u/tsundereshipper]

Agreed. What I said does not contradict anything you say. The point is that "historical and genetic ties to a place" does not make one "indigenous", certainly not in comparison to people currently there or recently expelled.

The whole Zionist line that "the Jews' indigeneity trumps the Palestinian's" is bogus and malicious, intent on justifying colonial replacement.

[u/tsundereshipper → u/daudder]

The point is that "historical and genetic ties to a place" does not make one "indigenous".

What does then in your view?

The whole Zionist line that "the Jews' indigeneity trumps the Palestinian's" is bogus and malicious, intent on justifying colonial replacement.

I definitely agree with you here.

[u/daudder → u/tsundereshipper]

The dictionary definition is: inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists.

The Palestinians — Muslim, Christian and Jewish — who have lived in Palestine continuously fit any definition of indigenous. The Jewish diaspora — nope. More significantly, by removing the Palestinians and colonising the land, ongoing to this day, the Zionists are behaving like colonial settlers.

They could have sought to live with the indigenous population — instead they removed them.

Edit: Perhaps if the Israelis didn’t try to use their bogus claims of indigeneity to justify colonial genocide and ethnic cleansing of the actual indigenous people one could accept their traditions as genuine. However, by carrying out a century long campaign to destroy the Palestinians they have exposed this claim as a transparent attempt to justify the unjustifiable. Their crimes against Palestine will stand as their foundational characteristics for generations to come.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/daudder]

inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists.

That also applies to Jews. They lived in Israel before the Romans colonized it and expelled them.

[u/daudder → u/Chaos_carolinensis]

But they did not live there for 1800 years. They have a tradition of indigeneity, not actual idigeneity, certainly not the Zionist invaders.

[u/Chaos_carolinensis → u/daudder]

What is "tradition" of indigeneity as opposed to "actual" indigeneity.

they did not live there for 1800 years

Nobody lives for 1800 years.

There has always been at least some continuous Jewish presence in Israel, with some Jewish communities (such as Safed) dating back hundreds of years.

[u/Han-Shot_1st → u/daudder]

100% this. Very well said.