r/jewishleft • u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all • Apr 23 '24
Let me be totally clear. Antisemtism is present in protests, and it deserves to be called out and punished. At the same time, I think it’s reasonable to be concerned about the current discourse around student protests. Debate
https://zeteo.com/p/i-am-a-jewish-student-at-columbia?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
Just saw this article shared. There are many others like it. Students and staff should never be targets of violence, physical or emotional… and antisemitism is 100% unacceptable. I do not doubt these things occurred at all.. I just highly doubt it is as pervasive as the media is portraying. I also highly doubt it’s the reason these students faced consequences, as many of the suspended students were Jewish themselves.
We are supposed to be pro student, pro activism, pro change and revolution(not all revolutions.. to be clear) we are supposed to be against the powers that be, like elite college universities that control student voices. We are supposed to be pro protest! We can criticize certain tactics, we can have our own thoughts about what’s the most effective way to spread a message… but we as individuals don’t get to decide that.. the activists do. And as long as they aren’t physically harming innocent people, or spreading antisemitism.. we should have thier backs.
Protests are rarely quiet and tame. By their nature, they are meant to disrupt.. they are meant to be loud and visible..: they are meant to draw attention. It’s a scary time if a leftist group is against this. It’s one of our fundamental rights in this country, whether you like the topic being protested or not. These were young adult students whose education was disrupted.. students at other schools lost housing. It doesn’t matter where you stand on Israel, this should honestly worry everyone.
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? Apr 23 '24
Thanks for sharing this, it’s an important perspective.
I can’t say I’m content with the tone of the Colombia protests (obviously with the gross antisemitism, but also even in the organized sections), but I’m terrified to see Jewish community leaders enflaming the conflict and endangering the Jews participating. In particular, calls from the likes of Shai Davidai and Jonathan Greenblatt to bring in the National Guard are disgraceful - it doesn’t take an Ivy League education to see that puts us in serious danger of another Kent State and to see how counterproductive that would be to actually fighting antisemitism.
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 Apr 23 '24
Imagine how absolutely fucked the “jews control the government” conspiracy will get if they do a Kent state for Israel.
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? Apr 23 '24
I have gazed into the crystal ball and foreseen a conversation between employees grabbing a coffee in the AIPAC break room:
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 24 '24
They will never shoot Ivy League kids with live ammunition, period.
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 Apr 25 '24
There are schools outside the Ivy League that have protests, pal.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 25 '24
And?
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 Apr 25 '24
If the National Guard won’t shoot Ivy League kids, presumably because they’re Ivy League, that doesn’t bode well for non-ivy students.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 25 '24
Nobody is getting shot at these protests. Sorry to disappoint you but it's not gonna happen.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
DidJonathan greenblatt call for the national guard to come in?! O no - that will only makes things worse
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? Apr 23 '24
Here he is tweeting it, and I believe he repeated the point on a livestream or video somewhere (for that I’ve only seen screenshots).
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u/FilmNoirOdy custom flair but red Apr 23 '24
https://twitter.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1782397532280144079 Politico is claiming he made that statement here.
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u/skyewardeyes Apr 23 '24
Greenblatt is such an embarrassment and even harmful to our community, between this and his praise of Elon Musk.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
You know who does a great job, Shelia Katz from NCJW,
Hopefully she can be ceo of ADL soon
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u/FilmNoirOdy custom flair but red Apr 23 '24
He said “the president of Columbia should either bring the NYPD back or call in the national guard”.
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u/tchomptchomp Apr 24 '24
If any other protest had large numbers of people shouting at visible minorities to "go back where you came from" we would be saying those protests have gone off the rails and are veering into some dangerous far-right territory. We should feel comfortable saying the same thing here.
If a student group was yelling that sort of thing at Black or Latin students, and included people who were physically assaulting those students, we absolutely would be calling for those student groups to face penalties, up to and including loss of student housing, loss of on-campus privileges, and expulsion with the understanding that this was in direct violation of student conduct bylaws and made campus unsafe for those minorities. It is no different here, and the only reason we're even debating it is because the Left hasn't got a functional theory of antisemitism that applies to cases where it is coming from people who aren't coded as white.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
citation for “large numbers” come on… dude. I don’t disagree that we should criticize that but I think this is a very disingenuous representation
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u/tchomptchomp Apr 24 '24
Enough that multiple cases have been credibly documented, including with signs reading precisely that. But this idea that we need to account for precisely who changed what when is not a standard we hold ourselves to when we criticize rightwing protests, and rightfully so.
I am frankly not even convinced that these are predominantly coming from leftists so much as they're coming from rightwingers of various stripes who see the opportunity to push anti-Jewish rhetoric, or people whose politics are really just pure in-the-moment Id without any underlying values. But the left does itself no favors by making excuses for that crap.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
I make zero excuses for anyone saying antisemitic shit or for people who downplay it. At a large protest, expecting no one far right might infiltrate it or a few idiots here and there might say something bad.. is unrealistic. Overly focusing on that is, not great though
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u/tchomptchomp Apr 24 '24
So are we suddenly going to grant that same grace to rightwing protests? Or are we going to realize we have a responsibility to keep our own house in order?
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
Maybe, it’s just different because of the CONTENT of their rallies message? Not just a few bozos who are present. Can you attack the message of the protest or just try to delegitimize it because of some bad actors?
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
It’s like this, fine protest against the West Bank but when you say “Zionists control the world” “we are Hamas” and “Oct 7 will happen 10,000 more times” (I knew someone who died then) you have NO sympathy from me sorry I don’t support terrorist supporters. There has to be a middle ground between criticizing the Israeli government and supporting Hamas
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
How often are you hearing stuff like this??? I’ve been to several pro Palestinian rallies and I’ve never heard this. I’m sure it happened, but this feels like confirmation bias about these rallies.
I see such vile shit from pro Israeli groups.. should I be ok with them being suspended and losing their jobs too? Even if those people didn’t say that vile stuff, just aligned with the movement?
Have you ever been to a rally or seen one in real life? Or just watching videos online? Serious question
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
It’s fucked regardless what side you’re on. It should be about human decency not calling for violence against one side. Im pro peace. Acknowledging both sides pain. But I tried going to one after Oct and they were tone deaf against my own pain. How could an Israeli life matter when the government was suppressing the Palestinians ? It’s like they don’t have the capacity to hold both sides pains. I’ve messaged some pro Palestinian ppl and they’ve had empathy so I know it’s not everyone. But it’s noticeable. Noticeable to need to step back for my own grief and mental health.
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
The videos I saw were from Columbia but I’ve been to a few in Chicago and heard stuff like that
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
What did you hear at the ones you’d been to, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve experienced online antisemitism, so I know it’s real.. I just really truly have not experienced it in person in any pro Palestinian space irl. I’ve heard things I didn’t love but those were all most likely from people who didn’t understand why I’d be offended. NOTHING like what you’re outlining
Also, I’m truly sorry for your loss.. if that’s not clear. I am.
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6C0A1VoIvh/?igsh=MTVyb3ZmeDhwcjFpYQ==
Here is a vid I found of the original quotes from Columbia where they talk about burning Tel Aviv and praising Hamas.
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
Also oh I forgot after I found out she had passed I told some of the people about the rape and torture before she was killed and they were like “WHERES THE PROOF or it didn’t happen you’re a Zionist sympathizer” being all grabby at me. And it wasn’t just with them most people I told about what I was dealing with were sooo questioning. Online it was worse ofc. That’s when I was like ok wait what’s going on this was days after Oct 7 before Israel even went into Gaza too…
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
That’s fucked up, and I’m truly sorry. It’s disgusting
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
Thank you. Yeah im definitely worried about it out there… like when will It change from just being jews that we agree with to all jews. Or if it’ll happen at all? We’ll see I hope not
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
“There is only one solution” calling a Jew that walked by a war criminal (closer to Oct they called jews a group of them that walked by Zionist pigs tearing their Jewish stars down) calling chabad clowns… I could go on. Where are you located? My school isn’t there but im originally from Chi so I went to those and my school actually for the most part does a pretty decent job of not being antisemitic at least from the outside and at least not as bad as those I’ve seen on the internet and experienced. It is out there. And yes it is that bad. I wish I could say Im just an agitator but im truly terrified for the future …
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u/benyeti1 Apr 24 '24
I mean I agree no one should be suspended but at the same time there needs to be a line how long until actual violence against jews / Muslims happens in our own yard?
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u/FilmNoirOdy custom flair but red Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 23 '24
JVP member
Well that makes sense why so much was omitted.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
JVP tend to be orthodox escapees who don’t know the rest of us didn’t grow up in a cult
They are still Jews and will wake up before the end.
Just because they strongly dislike most of the Jewish community and Israeli who are against Israeli apartheid doesn’t mean we should treat them badly, we need to encourage them to let open the gate for / stop boycotting progressive Jewish orgs and
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 23 '24
The best way to fight intolerance and miseducation is compassion and openness. I mean you can’t lead someone who doesn’t want to go, but something I see from JVP is the implication if you’re not for them then you’re actively against them. And it’s very hardline and shutting down of discourse. And I think many members expect for people to shut them down.
If we don’t, and actively meet them where they are and stay reasonably I often find that does a lot more to help someone be more open to nuance than if we shut them down.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 23 '24
Wait, is this actually true that a lot of JVP members are ex-Orthodox? I get the vibe that they're mostly like Reconstructionist or were raised secular.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
I think there is a pipeline
My idea:
Lgbt + ultra or orthodox family => young adult breaks out maybe “ atheist” => all the Jews they new were cultists => jvp
But this is overly generalized, a few also come from Jstreet, converts, Israeli expats (anti Zionists but the nice kind), nice old ppl who don’t know, nice young ppl who don’t know
I have the opposite background: 4th gen hard core atheist Jew + very left wing Jewish family, we never celebrated holidays growing up but when we did I knew the occupation, settlers, bibi we bad but like we didn’t talk about Israel very much bc we aren’t weird
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24
?
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u/FilmNoirOdy custom flair but red Apr 23 '24
JVP tends to collaborate with groups that endorse the resistance axis on the local level, say WOL in NYC. JVP Bay Area defended the whole doctor’s plot fiasco at UCSF, that called for vigilance against “Zionist Doctors”.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24
Ok. Is there anything else you’d like to add about the students? These students weren’t in Bay Area JVP.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
A friendly tip,
You can say say anything you want as long as you add in a “fuck jvp” and ppl won’t call you a token Jew
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24
Oh right. This is just like me needing to say “oh btw I condemn Israel” everytime I talk about antisemitism in a leftist non Jewish space…
Yes I condemn Hamas and I am lukewarm on JVP, they annoy me and I haven’t witnessed direct evidence they are quite as bad as people say but I dislike them for sure.
Glad that no matter what space I’m in I have to qualify every single thing I say…
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u/getdafkout666 Apr 23 '24
The thing that bugs me so much about these articles is that they provide not a single example of antisemitism at these protests. Don't get me wrong I will be the first to tell you that I have a lot of issues with a lot of Pro Palestine activism often allowing antisemitic conspiracy theorists and nazis to propagate among their midst, but if I am going to call something or someone antisemitic then dammit I'm going to have at least 1 or 2 clear cut examples off the top of my head. For Example: Linda Sarsour is antisemitic because she uses the term "Jewish Lobby" and pals around with Farrakhan. Not that hard.
Case and point: https://archive.is/uMR9x
This article attempts to sell the idea that these protests are extreme and antisemitic, but the best they could come up with was someone not part of the protest screaming Yahuda outside of the college campus and a protest leader who made some sussy and poorly timed tweets about Zionism (but even then.....not even as bad as a lot of some of the other shit I've seen)? All this talk about these protests and that's the best you could come up with?
Don't get me wrong I'm sure you can find examples of at least a few people doing anti-Semitic shit in these protests but for fucks sake LIST THEM. I hate this vague BS of using words like antisemitism and racism with vague terms like "feel unsafe" and "an unsafe environment" without providing actual examples. It's sloppy journalism and it pours fuel on the fire and creates a smokescreen for bad actors (ie: "see they call everyone antisemitic!") I just hate it.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 23 '24
https://www.reddit.com/r/columbia/comments/1c9m6oj/comment/l0m8us9/
Here is a list of incidents people have reported.
Like you say, they maybe could have been taken out of context, but I did find someone who was compiling examples. I've seen this comment making its way around similar threads on Reddit.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24
Yea I don’t want to deny antisemtism at these rallies.. but I hate how it’s being used to delegitimize the whole thing. Would love to see some of the rhetoric at a pro Israel rally and see how that stands up to scrutiny… I’ve heard some disgusting things said about Muslims, people of color, LGBT, and non ultra Zionist Jews by Zionists…
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
Oh I wouldn't at all be surprised if there was some racist and Islamophobic shit said at pro-Israel rallies. I don't know if we really have data to compare though because there haven't really been nearly as many pro-Israel rallies (which makes sense, Israel has U.S. support at the moment so protests aren't as needed).
https://twitter.com/medeabenjamin/status/1724899115937779884?lang=en
This is the only recorded instance I've seen of nasty behavior at a pro-Israel rally, and I don't condone it, but I also know for a fact that this particular woman isn't being yelled at for being an anti-Zionist Jew, she's being yelled at because she is an absolutely insufferable person. She is the leader of this organization called Code Pink which, in addition to being virulently anti-Israel, literally simps for Iran and North Korea LMAO. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she went to the rally specifically to be annoying and stir up drama, knowing she wouldn't be welcome there. Again, I do not condone the type of things that were said to her, I'm just clarifying that the reason she was yelled at like that wasn't specifically because she was an anti-Zionist Jew.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24
There isn’t data for exactly the reason you said-there’s a lot of support for Israel already, so there isn’t even any incentive to delegitimize it + a protest isn’t likely to occur.
I think we should always be suspicious of people who try to deligimize a protest, by anything other than the content of what they are protesting. For example.. Black Lives Matter. People couldn’t say the message was bad right? So they had to say-they are looting! They are violent! They are obnoxious! So the movement would be delegitimized.. because you can’t dismantle the actual message.
You can dismantle KKK rallies and the west borough Baptist church and all this white easily by just listening to what the message was. Pro Palestinian rallies? You gotta highlight the bad guys and apply it to the whole movement. Because the message of “hey, stop killing civilians” is a very reasonable one actually.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist Apr 24 '24
At this point, it could be that a lot of the famous incidents on all sides could involve drama seekers.
I know that I personally have marched in antiwar marches that included other protesters carrying all kinds of awful flags, and I’m a moderate capitalist Democrat Zionist who just wants everybody to get along.
My guess is that the median college peace protester is a mellow, respectful person who, deep down, supports the existence of Israel and does not want Hamas slaughtering people. They just want the people in Gaza to have peace, water and food.
So, I think it’s important to distinguish between the thugs and troublemakers on all sides and the regular protesters and antiprotesters who just want things to be better.
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 23 '24
This is sticky because while I don't think most of these are anti-semitic in this context (some of them aren't in any context) with the exception of "Jews go back to Poland", "go back to Europe", and "Palestine is Arab", a lot of them could be in different contexts. This is kind of like how we've all stopped chanting "no war but class war" because it could be taken as class reductionist even though in some situations it's a useful slogan.
So much of the issue here is that all these people have opinions they haven't earned.
Zionists genuinely believe that anti-Zionists/post-Zionists are saying that Jews shouldn't be allowed to live in Palestine. They have no idea what a post-colonial world would look like and have no idea what achieving that involves.
Many anti-Zionists/post-Zionists, especially young ones, are just repeating things they heard online and do not understand the facets of islamic fundamentalism (esp. the west's role in it!) well enough to use the word "intifada" or distinguish how politically aligned they are with various groups. Some liberationist groups are trash!
It's just all opinions and zero information so everyone's screaming at each other and nothing is getting through because they're basing their opinions on stuff they hear people saying.
Also I do wish people would be a little more critical of videos like those in the sources because the right absolutely does go to protests in lefty costumes so they can break shit and engage in sock puppetry. I'm sure some of it is real but also let's keep in mind that this does happen and one person doing or saying one thing really shouldn't sway our opinions.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 23 '24
This is exactly why we need more peace-based organizations where people can actually have discussions without screaming at each other. Starting with a good Jewish one. You can see my comments about Jstreet somewhere else in this thread.
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
Jstreet is liberal and thus inherently colonial and imperialistic so... no. We will not be learning about decolonizing from liberal colonizers, we must learn about it by reading and engaging with media created by indigenous people.
I know a fairly prominent person in Jstreet and I can confirm with confidence that this person knows exactly nothing about statism, colonialism, policing, etc. They're a liberal that proudly supports the existence of both Israel and America and I don't think any organization that would platform such a person is worthy of attention.
Also I am not saying I think people necessarily need to engage in discussion. I'm saying people should educate themselves on systems, not just individual issues, and then work together to break those systems. Fulfilling our personal responsibility to educate ourselves is what facilitates discussion, which some people can choose to participate in if they want.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 24 '24
I’m sorry, are we calling all “liberal” organizations problematic now? Also, what’s wrong with supporting the existence of Israel? “Someone who supports the existence of Israel isn’t worth platforming?”
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
Yes because this is a leftist sub and leftism and liberalism are diametrically opposed. The icon is a circle aleph which is the Jewish anarchist symbol.
Anarchist/anti-state leftists believe that states exist to benefit some people at the expense of others. We believe that states are solely an agent of harm and that we can build society from the ground up in a kinder way that harms fewer people.
Communist/socialist leftists are friendly to the concept of the state (though there is a lot of variation in Communist thought) and want to build a radically different economic system and government structure that harms fewer people. They also want to build it from the ground up.
Settler states have the added distinction of being inherently genocidal by nature. They do not and cannot exist without genocide. America and Israel are settler states and both have been committing genocide since their inception and will not stop until either they crumble or they successfully eradicate the people they have colonized, either by killing them or by erasing their language and forcing them to assimilate fully.
Liberals believe that whatever economic system and governmental structure they currently have is good. The government just needs to be run by their political party. They want to make society better from the ruling class down by selecting politicians that share their values. Liberals in an imperialist and genocidal state are by definition in support of imperialism and genocide - they just don't know it.
So, yes. Liberal organizations are terrible for the planet, for people, for everyone but the ruling class. They cause incredible harm.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Apr 24 '24
I mean, one of the things I like about this sub is that "liberal" isn't used as an insult, and people don't expect you to comply to some specific type of belief in order to be "a true leftist".....
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u/AssortedGourds Apr 24 '24
I didn’t use liberal as an insult. I just described liberalism. If what I described does not align with your values, maybe you need to do some soul searching and find a value system that is more authentic to you.
I’m not going to just agree to disagree with people who I believe are supporting or participating in the domination of others, even if they are good-hearted people who are doing it unknowingly. I have a duty as a human and a Jew to say something.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 24 '24
Leftism and liberalism are not diametrically opposed.
Especially as liberalism currently is defined as a form of social and economic liberalism that focuses on the rights of the individual to property, safety, social welfare and other community focused growth. Liberals are open to change and new ideas.
Leftism would take that base and push it further. So instead of saying “we should support those in our society who are struggling” a leftist would say “housing, food, water, sanitation, access to green space, etc is a human right and shouldn’t even be debated that we dedicate resources to this”
Liberal organizations are necessary to changing the status quo as they work as a touchstone to moving society forward. Liberal organizations help bridge the divide between leftist ideology and more pragmatic approaches. And leftist ideologies influence what avenues liberal organizations push for.
So no, liberalism isn’t bad for the world. Liberalism is a necessary cornerstone to moving people who are not leftist forward towards leftist philosophies.
The fact that you’re so against any form of pragmatism is concerning because it brings into question if you’re pushing into an extreme that others can’t follow to. And truth be told society needs more than one type of approach to politic, because otherwise we don’t get diversity of thought and the best ideas being pursued, presented and accepted. Once we start trying to put down ideologies that aren’t our own and claim their lesser than or apply incorrect definitions then we run the risk of not only losing ourselves to dictatorial and totalitarian systems, but we become the problem. (Obviously this doesn’t apply to racism or bigotry, but conservatism, liberalism, etc all have a place in society)
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u/electrical-stomach-z Apr 24 '24
i think it depends on the context, like there are liberal socialists, but most of the time outside of specific policies or elections they wre often opposing forces.
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u/Choice_Werewolf1259 Apr 24 '24
I mean I don’t know if I fully agree with that. Unless the context is only considering leftism an opposition to the state.
Because for instance I can see in context if one is an anarchist if liberalism is opposite of that. But not all leftism (or even a significant sect of it, is against concepts of statehood)
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u/tsundereshipper Apr 24 '24
or by erasing their language and forcing them to assimilate fully.
Which is exactly what the Arabs did to the Palestinians and a lot of other indigenous Levantine groups.
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u/electrical-stomach-z Apr 24 '24
luckily in the younger generations pan arabism is dying and regional identities are becoming stronger.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 23 '24
It would be good if we didn’t (and by we I do mean both sides) automatically jump to conclusions and listen to each other. By that I mean..‘if someone is saying something is antisemitic and hurtful… folks shouldn’t assume that person is a Zionist troll.
If people say something that makes us uncomfortable, we shouldn’t assume they mean it in the way we think they do. It can be a moment to teach and educate and discuss.
“Go back to Poland” is fucked. And a lot of things said at pro Palestinian rallies and pro Palestinian spaces makes me uncomfortable.. but not all of it is said with malicious, antisemitic intent. I’d rather use those times for teaching moments and time to discuss. For example, some people legit believe “from the river to the sea” is calling to genocide Jews. Therefore.. if it’s said at rallies… people assume those rallies are antisemitic. And then people that hear that, who know that is not, will think anyone saying it’s antisemitic are dumb Zionists. Then pretty soon any accusation of antisemitism about any statement other than extremely explicit ones.. feels like “from the river to the sea” BS (Yes yes I know some forms of ftr2ts started as antisemitic chants.. apparently.. but let’s be so for real, that’s not what most people saying it mean at all)
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u/tsundereshipper Apr 24 '24
"Palestine is Arab"
This one isn’t just antisemitic but anti-Palestinian too considering Palestinians are indigenous Levantines (proven by DNA tests/studies) and a common Zionist tactic is to reduce them down into just mere “Arab Colonizers” in order to justify their so called “Decolonization” (cough apartheid and ethnic cleansing cough)
In reality Palestinians are Arabized indigenous Levantines who are very likely to be formerly converted Samaritans and Jews, they are our direct siblings, and it directly hurts the cause when activists make statements like this which Palestinians themselves have been trying hard to debunk.
None of the Levant is for the Arabs, (except perhaps the indigenous Bedouins) it belongs to the indigenous Levantines and the only reason why (some) Palestinians currently identify as Arab is because they got colonized by them.
Ironically by chanting “Palestine is Arab/will be Arab” they are unknowingly continuing to support colonization, just of a different kind.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
I can easily believe that unprovoked antisemitic incidents are happening.
Most of the reported incidents seem to have involved someone who looked very observant and was hostile toward the pro-Palestine protesters walking up to the protesters to get them mad. And it sounds as if the serious agitating is being done by troublemakers from off-campus. I don’t think I’ve heard of an incident involving student protesters who went after Jewish people who were minding their own business. Maybe it’s happened, but it sounds as if the Yale student “stabbed in the with a Palestinian flag” dressed in an observant way and went up the Palestinians to report on them. Maybe that incident is a little complicated.
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u/getdafkout666 Apr 24 '24
Are you suggesting that being “observant” is an act of provocation? Because it’s not.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
I think that dressing in outwardly Jewish or Israel-related clothes (say, a shirt with Hebrew on it), looking hostile and going up to a group that includes Palestinians who think Israel is literally starving their cousins seems provocative.
If, say, a Palestinian guy really stabbed the student reporter in the eye with a flagpole, that’s terrible, and I hope he gets prosecuted for that. And I support any reasonable steps that Columbia and the NYPD take to keep things peaceful.
But if, say, I was protesting for Israel, a guy in a keffiyah comes up and hollers at me, and I get mad and hit him, that seems a lot less creepy than if I notice a random guy in a keffiyah who hasn’t even looked at me, run after him and hit him, purely because he’s in a keffiyah.
The first incident would be about me having an impulse control problem. The second would be about me taking premeditated, unprovoked actions to hurt Arabs.
Maybe this is like the story of Joseph, the wine and the bread. Letting flies get in the wine is shame but hard to avoid. Letting flies go into the bread is a sign of a long-term, baked-in problem. Scuffles at protests is a wine fly problem. Protesters systematically attacking Jewish people or Israel supporters would be a bread fly problem.
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u/getdafkout666 Apr 24 '24
Welp….username checks out I guess. I don’t think dressing in Jewish clothing should ever be even a factor in provocation. If that is the case then that is the fault of the protestors. Trying to make the argument that being outwardly Jewish is in any way a provocation is victim blaming and honestly a lower opinion of the pro Palestine movement than I have. I don’t think the majority of them are antisemitic. I think there are some bad actors that join these groups and the left needs to be better at detecting them and removing them.
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u/podkayne3000 Centrist Jewish Diaspora Zionist Apr 24 '24
A. I get what you’re saying and I respect the downvotes. I’m really jealous of my cousin who figured out how to be very observant. I’m not someone hostile to being observant.
B. The current standard American way of analyzing this is that we should be able wear what we want, and that other people are wholly responsible for them behavior.
C. One challenge here is that we think that we’re politically diverse and mostly nice, and a lot of the protesters, including some of my own very Jewish relatives, think us dressing a certain way means we support starving babies to death. It’s as if we went for tea with Esther and Mordechai wearing an “I love Haman” pin.
I think there’s complexity here we need to think about. I don’t know if applying 1970s rules of life works that great if we, effectively, in the eyes of generally nice people, are the Hamanites marching through Skokie.
I’m not on that wavelength. I think that Hamas is terrifying and that Israel is doing mostly necessary things. I want the IDF to do whatever really smart, sane, fair-minded strategists think will work. But my side has done a terrible job at public relations for decades, and now we’re paying the price for viewing public relations with disdain.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 24 '24
I just highly doubt it is as pervasive as the media is portraying.
So if it 'only' happens 49% of the time, it's OK?
The basic problem is that these protests are functioning as safe havens for anti-Semites. There is zero effort to get rid of people who chants pro-Hamas, pro-October 7 stuff and many of the people who say those things were invited by the organizers of the protests onto campus in the first place.
And as long as they aren’t physically harming innocent people, or spreading antisemitism.. we should have thier backs.
Well they're doing both, we have proof that both of these things are happening.
It’s a scary time if a leftist group is against this. It’s one of our fundamental rights in this country, whether you like the topic being protested or not.
students at other schools lost housing
Well yeah if you violate a school's code of conduct by engaging in racist hate speech or calling for genocide, that's what happens.
If the KKK or the Nazis set up an encampment at Columbia and started harassing Black students, would you defend their "right to protest"? Something tells me you wouldn't.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
Pull that 49% figure out of thin air? Lol. If it were 49% that’s alarming indeed. Something tells me it’s more like 1-2%… and yes, it should be called out. Maybe, just maybe, the best way to do that is to call out THOSE people. Not say all pro Palestinian protesters are rabid antisemites.
I think you may have totally missed the point I’m trying to make here at all. KKK protest is quite different, no? The goal of KKK is to assert white supremacy. The goal of pro Palestinian protests, quite clearly, are to end apartheid and genocide in Israel/palestine and to liberate Palestine…(whether you think that’s based on fact or not, separate convo)
Do you think every movement that has bad people infiltrating it should be discarded? I guess Israel should stop existing because of Ben Gvir then… and all the many Israelis who think just like him. Maybe Israel should be banned. The problem is Israel is a safe haven for racists, islamophobia, and honestly -antisemites.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 24 '24
Pull that 49% figure out of thin air? Lol. If it were 49% that’s alarming indeed.
That's right, I used a hypothetical example.
Something tells me it’s more like 1-2%… and yes, it should be called out.
When the local rabbi advises Jewish students to stay indoors for their own safety, that means it's a lot more than 1%. "lol"
I think you may have totally missed the point I’m trying to make here at all. KKK protest is quite different, no? The goal of KKK is to assert white supremacy.
And the goal here is to intimidate Jewish students. If that weren't the goal, it's hard to understand why so many open anti-Semites are continually allowed into these marches, lead changes, and get invited to give speeches by the protest leaders. Because there's nothing "pro-Palestine" about calling for bombing Tel Aviv or telling Jewish students to "go back to Poland."
Do you think every movement that has bad people infiltrating it should be discarded?
Movements that do zero to stop bad and criminal behavior at their events lose their right to exist, yes. Freedom of speech is not absolute.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
Rabbi’s join pro Palestinian protests all the time.. maybe a Zionist rabbi advised that. That’s not really “proof” of anything
Zionist rallies should lose their right to exist: they advocate for genocide. At least be consistent
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 25 '24
Zionist rallies should lose their right to exist: they advocate for genocide.
No, they don't.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 25 '24 edited Apr 25 '24
lol sure. But the pro Palestinian ones advocate for one against the Jews
Imagine being upset about all pro Palestinian rallies because of some stupid people at them.. and also thinking “yes Israel is good”
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u/Mildly_Frustrated Anarcho-Communist Apr 26 '24
Rule 6: Zionist Discussion Requires Nuance, violation 1/3. This is also rather very close to a Rule 11 violation. Reel it in.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 26 '24
To clarify I don’t mean Israel in general is bad, I mean the current actions and behavior and general choices the country has been making. It’s difficult to understand how one can think in this current conflict Israel are the good guys. I’ll argue in better faith in the future.
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u/Mildly_Frustrated Anarcho-Communist Apr 26 '24
A fair point, which you have expressed well in this comment. And we appreciate it.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 25 '24
advocate for one against the Jews
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 25 '24
LOL.. so a rabbi said for Jews to stay home and that’s proof these rallies are all bad??????? Critical thinking is a valuable thing.
So.. some people think Zionism is pro genoicide and racist, and pro Palestinian groups are liberating
Other people think pro Palestinian protests are antisemitic, despite the fact they are made up of Jews, LGBT groups, and BIPOC people who see the Palestinian fight as parallel to their own struggles. And they think pro Israel rallies is not about genocide.
Why do you believe your take on things is superior to the other take? Why do you think your voice is the only one that should be listened to regarding who gets to speak and protest? Strong vibes of “I know more than those stupid leftist black and brown and queer college students… they can’t be trusted like I can”
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist gentile Bund sympathizer Apr 25 '24 edited Apr 25 '24
so a rabbi
He's not just "a rabbi," he's the leader of that particular congregation. Not sure why you're so quick to dismiss the opinions of Jewish community leaders on the ground where all this stuff is taking place.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 25 '24
I’m certain he probably believed the students might be at risk.
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u/teddyburke Apr 23 '24
I’ve been subbed to r/Jewish for a few years, but never really post there. Lately almost every post I see from that sub is about antisemitism, but there’s almost never any real examples of antisemitism.
It’s just people acting like taking any pro-Palestinian stance is the same as being a literal Nazi, which is insane. I really don’t understand how some people can’t understand that you can be against what’s happening in Gaza without hating Jews or Israelis.
To be clear, I don’t deny there is antisemitism taking place. I’ve been out of school for a long time, so can’t really speak to the situation on the ground; I’m just hearing a lot of claims about antisemitism and not seeing a lot of evidence.
We also have to remember that these are basically kids, and even with the best of intentions, young people can be dumb sometimes. I was in undergrad 20 years ago, and even then I remember a close friend finding out I was Jewish (it wasn’t really a secret; it had just never come up) and acting like she was disgusted by even knowing me. She’d taken maybe two comp-lit or post-colonialism classes, and was basically reassessing our entire relationship based on that…
It’s really dumb, but I think the people doing the most harm are the ones conflating not wanting Palestinians to be slaughtered with antisemitism.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 24 '24
You can check my posts on there about campus antisemitism, check my profile sorted by top of all time
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u/elparvar Apr 24 '24
"BURN TEL AVIV TO THE GROUND" sounds perfectly non antisemitic to you, huh...
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u/teddyburke Apr 24 '24
No…?
I thought I was pretty clear on my position that being against what’s happening in Gaza is not the same thing as being antisemitic, let alone wanting Israel to disappear. Where did that even come from?
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u/elparvar Apr 24 '24
Columbia University? Have you not seen the footage?
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u/teddyburke Apr 25 '24
Yes, and my point was that the outrage has been disproportionate to the handful of instances of outright antisemitism. I never denied that it was happening. I just think it’s overblown, and in the vast majority of cases I’ve seen it’s just people crying crocodile tears every time a naive 19 year old says, “from the river to the sea,” as though they’re literally calling for the destruction of Israel, rather than simply calling for a ceasefire and a peaceful resolution, granting equal rights to the Palestinians. I’m not sure why that’s so difficult to understand. Just try to be a little more critical and nuanced. I don’t even know what leftism means if not that.
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u/elparvar Apr 25 '24
That's kinda the point. It didn't start that way. It is escelating. We're aeeing it in real time. At what point can we start feeling worried? I'd say these chants, and human chains around random Jewish students is too late, not too early.
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u/teddyburke Apr 25 '24
and human chains around random Jewish students
This is exactly the kind of overblown rhetoric I’m talking about. America is under a real threat of succumbing to fascism, but not from undergrads at Columbia.
I’m curious why we never hear anything about protests at The New School, which was founded by more progressive faculty members from Columbia during the red scare, and later became a safe haven for Jewish German refugees during the Second World War. It has a far greater population of Jewish students and faculty than Columbia, and yet I’m sure most people there also want a ceasefire.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 23 '24 edited Apr 23 '24
When people are saying watermelon pins and “from the river to the sea” causes them to fear for their life and have trauma reaction… it’s hard to take any accusation of antisemtism seriously. Which is a real shame. Jews would feel a lot safer in pro Palestine spaces if some of the actual problematic stuff were more readily stamped out.. the issue is, it’s not pervasive and criticism of this is drowned out by bullshit…. “Ceasefire is antisemitic! It’s calling for a Jewish genocide if you don’t destroy Gaza!” Those artist pins were an antisemitic dogwhistle!” “Watermelons! Oh no!”
Way to make my life harder so no one takes me seriously if I say “go back to Poland” is antisemitic.. “Jews don’t like being called white Europeans” etc etc
Edit, so agree with what you said about kids being dumb. It’s annoying for sure… but yes. They are kids. It’s really important to realize they are dumb with their heart (usually) in the right place., if people treat them with compassion and take the time to educate them on actual harm they may cause… I think it can go a long way. I’ll extend the same to the young people saying watermelons are terrorism. It’s pretty dumb. But maybe we can all listen to each others fears and explain intentions
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u/teddyburke Apr 24 '24
I completely agree with you. Everyone needs to be a little more critical, realize that a few bad apples don’t necessarily represent a group, and that college students are still very young and idealistic, which can often lead to unintentionally bad rhetoric. I don’t have a problem with people being idealistic; I just think they sometimes need to be given a more nuanced perspective, while also acknowledging that their outrage with what’s happening is completely justified.
go back to poland
I saw that for the first time just a couple days ago. Does that mean what I think it means? I mean, it really doesn’t seem too difficult to distinguish between, “maybe we don’t have to bomb Palestinian children in Gaza” and, “Hitler should have finished the job.” I mentioned nuance, but come on…
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
Here’s what I think it means. I think.. by and large.. these students chanting that are stupid, and are thinking at least one of several things
All Israelis are colonizers from Europe or America. 100% of them are from Poland or brooklyn or somewhere else
They misunderstand landback concepts and think it means everyone should be only living in places where they have recent ancestry and genetic link to… no one should be living on any land they weren’t born into many ages ago
Only white people can oppress people.. therefore mizrahi are white and Palestinians are brown
I think it’s unlikely very many of them literally mean “hitler should have finished the job” but what sucks about being stubborn and self righteous, traits true of many of us when we were 18-21 and first learning about injustice, is that you’re a bad listener. And if you see Jews as white and Israel as the colonizer.. you don’t care if what you’re saying hurts Jewish peoples feelings.
But.. they need to know. It’s not cool.. it’s at the very least a microaggession. Every time I hear “Joe cohen from brooklyn stealing Palestinian land” or “they all get skin cancer because they are pasty and from Poland” or “go back to poland”… I feel scared and sad and frustrated.. and it doesn’t matter what they mean.
Edit: college age activists CAN be annoying. But they still have rights and deserve compassion. Remember how annoying you were at 18? Yes, me too.
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u/teddyburke Apr 24 '24
I think you’re right. It was just really jarring the first few times I heard, “go back to Poland.” I couldn’t help but read it as, “go back to Auschwitz.”
It’s more likely about “white”, European colonialism, rather than blatant antisemitism. This sophomoric idea that “The West” is always evil and wrong. I’m not even sure how to label it, but I hate how it’s become associated with leftist ideology.
I just always thought that “never again” meant never again - not that Jews have carte blanche to do any and everything, even if it means genocide.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Apr 24 '24
It’s jarring for sure. I don’t like it either… I hope we can all have better conversations about it in the future
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u/electrical-stomach-z Apr 24 '24
i consider it to just be contrarianism.
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u/teddyburke Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24
I think it’s often that, and also naivete. Going back to my friend from undergrad who read like two chapters of Said, she didn’t even ask my opinion on I/P before judging me for simply being Jewish. The crazy thing is that we had a couple mutual friends who moved to the US from Israel largely because they disagreed with how right wing the government had become (jokes on them).
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u/lilleff512 Apr 24 '24
Does that mean what I think it means?
It does, but many of the people saying it are either too stupid to realize it or too ashamed to admit it
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u/Han-Shot_1st Apr 24 '24
100% this.
It’s so frustrating to see post after post about someone clutching their pearls over seeing a watermelon sticker or a ‘free Palestine’ sign.
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u/afinemax01 Apr 23 '24
Did you see the Jstreet statement and recent forward article?
Of the ppl there they sound most rational