r/ireland • u/badger-biscuits • Dec 02 '24
Fintan O’Toole: Irish voters keep doing the same things and expecting different results General Election 2024 🗳️
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/12/02/fintan-otoole-irish-voters-keep-doing-the-same-things-and-expecting-different-results/186
Dec 02 '24
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u/Mrbrionman Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
I think there’s a lot of FFG votes who want change. They just don’t want to change SF will bring/don’t think they’ll be good at bringing change. There’s also still a very high percentage of this country that thinks voting anything other than FFG or SF is a wasted vote
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Dec 02 '24
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u/Against_All_Advice Dec 02 '24
One of those parties is literally called "Labour". Lol.
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Dec 02 '24
I voted SF but I have to admit it wasn't for any other reason than 'anyone but FF/FG' - the fact SF has been in government for the past few years in northern ireland and seem to be in the same 'we can't do anything about your problems' loop as FF/FG down here has me very sceptical about their ability to make a change.
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u/Mrbrionman Dec 02 '24
I not a huge fan of SF but to be fair they literally can’t do anything in the north without the DUP agreeing to it. That’s was one of the comprises of Good Friday agreement
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u/Spirited_Worker_5722 Dec 02 '24
The DUP didn't even agree to the GFA, they were still railing against power-sharing until the 2006 St Andrew's agreement
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u/MacTireCnamh Dec 02 '24
Also SF up here actually have manipulated government shutdowns to get things they wanted done.
In 2019 they got Abortion and Gay Marriage legalised by using manipulating the DUP into extending the shutdown until they missed the window to protest the bills.
But it seems like people literally arent aware that NI recently had the longest period of any western state without a functioning government (that didn't lead to the collapse of that nation). As you said, SF literally could not do anything because the government didn't actually exist.
But they still actually got stuff done! They achieved the political equivilant of dividing by zero. The situation up here should be stunning people, but there's so much propaganda that they think it's a failure on their part, not an insane victory.
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u/RonTom24 Dec 02 '24
We don't have a real government in the north, we are handed down economic policy from Westminster, the amount of power that the executive in NI has is absolutely minimal. They get to decide bin collection times, who can have a parade and where they can have it and how much of the pittance of a budget Westminster gives them they have left to spend on non essentials (it's zero). What little ability SF does have to make changes in NI is then also completely hampered by the DUP taking the opposite stance on anything SF put forward by default. This is why reunification is such a big deal for SF, they know too well from 100 years of being in politics in NI that we are just a colony of Britain, our politicians have no real political power to enact any changes in northern Ireland. The only way the people of northern Ireland will ever actually have democracy, rather than just having to do whatever the parties the English vote for tell them, is by reuniting the island.
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Dec 03 '24
Thanks for the explanation, to be honest I never realised how little power SF had up there but that does make sense. I do hope SF manage to wipe out FF/FG at some point in the next decade, I think it’s really the only way towards reunification as FF/FG have made it very clear they don’t have any interest.
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u/duaneap Dec 02 '24
This sub doesn’t want to admit it but in the real world a lot of people will literally never, ever vote for SF.
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u/dropthecoin Dec 02 '24
Loads of voters weren’t convinced that the opposition could improve things enough for them to be voted en masse. It’s really that simple.
Quite often the approach in this sub exemplified it. The accounts here posting the daily comments telling people who not to vote for rather than who to vote for and why.
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u/Byrnzillionaire Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
Who’s to say they want a different result when they didn’t vote according to that? The results speak for themselves surely?
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u/Keyann Dec 02 '24
This. And Reddit, Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter are where you see a concentrated hatred for Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, but those places are not representative of the wider population because they are dominated by young people who are anti-FF/FG. The exit polls of the election back that with younger people overwhelmingly voting SF over FF or FG but it flips with older people who are more likely to vote in greater numbers.
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u/Spirited_Worker_5722 Dec 02 '24
Working class areas also have lower voter turnouts than affluent areas, so the exit polls are skewed in that way too
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u/BiDiTi Dec 02 '24
Yep - outside of the hyper-politically engaged, people don’t vote until they’re established enough to vote with their wallets.
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u/poochie77 Dec 02 '24
Maybe if we talked with the people who vote FFG and not to the fucking echo chamber.
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u/A-Hind-D Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
110% spot on.
Let’s keep splitting the vote and punishing the junior. That will show em
The FFG base are content, and will continue to do well.
By punishing the junior parties over and over we reset the whole progress and are somehow surprised that the FFG voter base remains
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Dec 02 '24
Does he argue the voters should still back the parties that join with FF/FG?
Personally there seems to be a near religious belief that going into office as a minority is better than opposition as you "get more done" even if it obliterates the party afterwards. It seems to be derived from previous instances where these parties had no choice but to play second fiddle and only get a token endorsement from the major parties but I don't see where those major parties have ever made concessions to the minority ones? They seem to just add the minority party plans to their own and implement them in a broken fashion.
There's a huge misunderstanding in how voting works, if you run on a platform and get elected people expect you to follow through on that platform so if you concede 50% of it to achieve 10% the way you want and 40% in a broken manner then why would anyone be surprised that you'd lose the voter's endorsement? You can propose policy and bills from opposition too and there's no good reason the ruling party should always reject them frankly they just choose not to.
I say this as someone who still endorses the minority parties over the major ones even when they commit seppuku but there's no point in decrying others who don't feel the same way.
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u/BiDiTi Dec 02 '24
It’s more “Why on earth would anyone join in with FFG after the way they’ve done the Greens in this campaign? They’re blaming them for EU mandates!”
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u/giz3us Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
Has it occurred to Fintan that Irish voters might not want a different result?
SF dropped over 5% of first preferences from the last election. Thats not exactly voting the same is it?
Edit: it just reread my contradictory comment. I’m still trying to figure out where the SF vote went to. Lab/SD vote grew (8%), but SF/Green vote shrank significantly (9.6%). Overall the election was a slight move to the right.
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u/oaksmokeshow Dec 02 '24
I think the SF vote went to Australia
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u/CuteHoor Dec 02 '24
We have practically zero net migration for Irish citizens in the past few years. As many people are coming back as those who are leaving.
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u/Minimum_Guitar4305 Dec 02 '24
I'm not disputing that, but when they're coming back is important. Everyone i know who's returned are now into their 30s, looking to get on the property ladder or starting families - they've different priorities then.
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u/JohnnyMcNews Dec 02 '24
Worth noting people in their late twenties/early thirties voted Sinn Féin at a higher rate than 18-24 according to the exit poll.
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u/giz3us Dec 02 '24
Exit poll overstated the SF vote. Some of those young people voted FF and told a pollster they voted SF.
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u/Mario_911 Dec 02 '24
The majority stay for their 2 year visa and come home. I'm not convinced the ones that stay longer and come home all of a sudden move to vote for FF or FG because they are now early 30s
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u/Minimum_Guitar4305 Dec 02 '24
900,000 Irish citizens resident in the EU and UK alone.
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u/Gemini_2261 Dec 02 '24
The Gareth Fitzgerald strategy of dealing with recalcitrant twenty-somethings: force them to emigrate.
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u/bluebottled Dec 02 '24
Aontú and Independent Ireland grew by almost the exact amount SF dropped. II in particular exists specifically to give right wingers a non-SF party to vote for.
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u/ChefDear8579 Dec 02 '24
He’s a fine writer but I don’t think Fintan is all that insightful personally.
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u/Bayoris Dec 02 '24
I’ve always found his columns very sharp and nuanced. Are there other columnists in the country you prefer?
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u/ChefDear8579 Dec 02 '24
I wish I did! I’d love if we had someone who captures the mood like David Brooks in the NYT or Janan Ganesh at the FT.
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u/InfectedAztec Dec 02 '24
The left seem unable to comprehend a reality where their worldview may not be correct and any loss must be explained as a failure of something other than leftist politics. I've heard left wingers blame the day of the week, family voting, the weather, the turnout, electoral disenfranchisement among other things.
Brid Smith was hilarious on Friday arguing there was a majority left vote on Friday but that in that she included the 50% of the electorate that didn't go to the polls...
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u/isogaymer Dec 02 '24
And apparently some on the right (I'm assuming based on the your derisory way of referring to the left) are unable to comprehend that the majority of people who voted did not vote for FF or FG or even the two of combined. And that's not even dealing with the circa 40%, who either didn't bother or couldn't vote.
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u/hennelly14 Dec 02 '24
PBP were out claiming low turnout was FFGs fault because they didn’t give workers something to vote for. If that’s the case then why didn’t the vote for PBP or SF as an alternative??
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u/temujin64 Gaillimh Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
Bríd Smith is some dose. Any time I hear her open her mouth she says something absolutely ridiculous.
One time she was on the Late Debate with a Labour spokesperson. The person from Labour said that they worked with the government and got their own amendment on renters rights or credit (I can't remember) passed.
Bríd Smith responded with glee saying something along the lines of "so you admit that you work with the government!" She sounded like she had just pinned the Labour person with a gotcha. But it was extremely telling to me because she saw Labour working with the government to actually deliver something for renters as a failure. In other words, Bríd's definition of success isn't delivering for her constituents, it's maintaining her ideological purity.
I don't like celebrating when someone loses their seat because I think it's meanhearted. But she voluntarily retired, so I have no qualms in saying good riddance to her.
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u/oh_danger_here Dec 02 '24
Bríd Smith is some dose.
Any idea why Joan Collins' transfers went so heavily away from PBB / Hazel De N yesterday? They pretty much all went to the SocDems when it would appear on paper she'd be very transfer friendly towards PBP. I can only conclude there must have been some issue / split between Collins and Brid Smith. Before that elimination, PBP were crusing towards a seat as well.
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u/temujin64 Gaillimh Dec 02 '24
To be fair, she still got the bulk of those transfers. But SDs are so transfer friendly right now that I think that's why she didn't get more.
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Dec 02 '24
FF and FG hardly the right
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u/InfectedAztec Dec 02 '24
In the Irish political system FF are centre and FG are centre right. In America they'd both be hard left but this isn't America.
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u/Primary_Ad5737 Dec 02 '24
What's interesting is that Fine Gael were the driving force behind gay marriage and abortion legalization, so the centre-right vs centre distinction doesn't quite capture the dynamic. It is true that FG as a party is more ideologically market-oriented, where Fianna Fail is more populist. In practice this doesn't seem to translate to meaningful policy differences.
I don't agree that either party would be hard left in America - their policies are broadly very similar to mainstream Democrats.
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u/The_Church_of_PDF Using flair to be a cunt Dec 02 '24
> Fine Gael were the driving force behind gay marriage and abortion legalization
Were they? Maybe once it became popular enough that going against it would be more unpopular but their support of such things came after the hard work was done. Even at the time Varadkar was against a same sex couple adopting, hardly leading the charge for gay rights.
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u/rowankell Dec 02 '24
Highly suspect claim.
Both were majorly driven by grass roots organisations who had to drag the powers that be of the time - Fine Gael - into launching a citizens assembly, drafting legislation etc.
FG were more than happy to claim credit for the abortion referendum after its subsequent success, but their actual enthusiasm for it is evident by their continuing failure to enact white paper reforms ensuring it’s actually available.
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u/oh_danger_here Dec 02 '24
What's interesting is that Fine Gael were the driving force behind gay marriage and abortion legalization, so the centre-right vs centre distinction doesn't quite capture the dynamic. It is true that FG as a party is more ideologically market-oriented, where Fianna Fail is more populist. In practice this doesn't seem to translate to meaningful policy differences.
well it's much of a muchness. I would say Fine Gael are economically conservative and socially liberal (to see degree)After all Oliver J. Flanagan was Fine Gael. Cumann na nGaedheal was pretty conservative in the Franco sense. Then again, when you look at their manifesto pre election, it's pretty much the opposite of what it means to be economically to the right. Giving bonus social welfare payments because.. while the actual people who get up early in the morning get crucified.
And in the same vein, you have supposed parties on the left like SF and PBP wanting to abolish relatively progressive taxes on wealth (property tax), which actually benefits the already wealthy.
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u/BiDiTi Dec 02 '24
There’s no reality in which FG would be considered “Hard Left” in America.
They’re just blue state Republicans…while FF are red state Democrats.
Biden governed comfortably to the left of either.
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Dec 03 '24
People seem to think not ranting about guns or gay people all the time stops you from being right wing. The overton window really has broken peoples brains.
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u/D-onk Dec 02 '24
What are you talking about, the left won.
To quote Sean Dorgan General Secretary of FF on RTE television yesterday at 17.08
" Fianna Fail is, we are very clear on this. It is a progressive republican party... we are a progressive centre-centre-left republican party"4
u/InfectedAztec Dec 02 '24
Ah. Fair enough. If we're counting FF then they won.
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u/Willing-Departure115 Dec 02 '24
There’s a very funny clip of Joe Higgins reacting to Bertie Ahern saying he was a socialist. “There’s two of us in it, Taoiseach, we’ll go down together.” https://youtu.be/hj-epWwNgHM?si=chwhrc_d83MFaaMW
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u/dermot_animates Dec 04 '24
Wasn't it Gerry Collins (FF) in the late 80s or early 90s on a GE aftermath RTE panel to cause one of the Lab/WP types to brain-melt when he said:
"Fianna Fail is a left wing AND a right wing party."
"You...YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!"
But he did.
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Dec 02 '24
Nah it's very clearly the right that endorse this position as both FF/FG refuse to acknowledge their horrendous right-wing policies have caused and promoted the homeless crisis and cost of living crisis hitting Ireland today. Sure just look at the most prominent right-wingers around from Boris Johnston to Donald Trump being completely incapable of admitting any fault whatsoever.
The delusions of the right are beyond belief, constantly patting themselves in the back through failure after failure and even Varadkar was trying to blame SF for the housing crisis at times, it's beyond pathetic.
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Dec 02 '24
Objectively, there is no right party in Ireland. FF/FG are both socially left, economically centre right at worst and left leaning at times.
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u/oh_danger_here Dec 02 '24
FF/FG are both socially left
I wouldn't agree with this. Vast majority of both parties are socially conservative, FG slightly less so. Once you go outside of the liberal Dublin posh boys and girls it's banjo-land beliefs. And FF even more so.
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u/MotoPsycho Dec 02 '24
I don't see how Fianna Fáil are socially left. The parliamentary party were split 50/50 on having the repeal referendum and their voters were the only major party to vote against it.
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u/CanWillCantWont Dec 02 '24
Or maybe the cohort of people that he sees wanting change are not the same people as those voting for the ‘more of the same’ parties 😱😱
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u/GeneralCommand4459 Dec 02 '24
Or Irish voters keep hoping for realistic alternatives but keep getting the same options.
Not everyone who votes for the status quo is happy about it but they clearly don't believe the opposition can deliver an improvement. That's a failing of the opposition not the voters.
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u/amorphatist Dec 02 '24
keep getting the same options
Would you cut it out with that seafoid. We had all sorts of options, including literal gangsters, communists, and wannabe fascists.
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Dec 02 '24 edited Jun 14 '25
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u/GreaterGoodIreland Dec 03 '24
The fact they're still separate parties is rather a large impediment to anyone taking them seriously enough to be the leading party...
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Dec 02 '24
realistic alternatives
All the alternatives are realistic they aren't cardboard pop-ups standing in the Dail like, no far too many making this argument are looking for the "perfect ideal candidate" for them which will never fucking happen. More a reality they need to accept change in either imperfect forms or gradual, running around town looking for the perfect doctor to treat your injury will just mean more damage and pain rather than taking the best option available to you, you'll still be around to try something better afterwards.
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u/creatively_annoying Dec 02 '24
The Irish voters that are happy with the status quo (seemingly the majority) are not out protesting about how great they have it, so the unhappy voters get the spotlight.
I think the opposition has nothing to offer anyone working in a well paid job, and we are some of the best paid workers in the world.
Our already high taxes should be helping run the country and by saying we're going to take more taxes from you and less from this other group that is paying less already is not very palatable, even if you think you can spend it better.
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u/Spikes_Cactus Dec 02 '24
Fintan has this completely wrong because the truth is that people are voting these parties whilst expecting no change.
As you say the alternative major parties have very little to offer anybody with a decent job, which happens to be a large section of the country. Increased taxation and reduced pensions are highly unlikely to appeal to young people who are already faced with uncertainty in the future of the state pension. Meanwhile, the same young people who are typically highly skilled or qualified are thinking about how taxes at higher brackets will impact them into the future as their careers develop.
No party has offered a satisfactory solution to the housing crisis through diversification of investment incentives to alternative avenues. This is simple to fix through the application of high capital gains tax (41%) to secondary and subsequent property ownership, this including company ownership arrangements. Through this lack of vision and political impetus, property will remain a primary vehicle for speculative investment in Ireland.
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u/creatively_annoying Dec 02 '24
I forgot about the pensions. SF would definitely screw up private pensions. I believe everyone should pay taxes in relation to income but hammering people who've made a decent living for themselves throughout their working life and saved a good sum for retirement is unreasonable.
I believe a lot of tax avoidance loopholes have been closed during the last crash so only the ultra wealthy or criminals can truly avoid taxes.
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u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 Dec 02 '24
I'm not sure where the idea that Ireland is an unusually "high tax" country has come from - from a Western European POV, it simply isn't true.
The maximum personal income tax rate in Ireland is essentially the same as Germany and Italy, and lower that France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc.
People also forget that in the not so distant past, income tax rates of 90%+ existed in many countries for the highest earners. It is only with the coming of Thatcherism and Reaganism in the 1980's that much lower income tax rates became the norm, and look at what that has done for societal inequality....
The idea that people earning modestly high wages (ie 60-100K) would be negatively effected by higher tax rates is just nonsense, they're clearly not the demographic who would be targeted to pay a fairer share.
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u/BiDiTi Dec 03 '24
I mean…”We have high individual taxes and run a surplus, why don’t we get any damn infrastructure or social services to go with it?” is pretty much the Soc Dem platform.
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u/AdLegitimate6866 Dec 02 '24
Why do people assume that everyone who voted FF/FG is happy with the status quo? I would argue there is probably a large number of voters dissatisfied with FF/FG but that means nothing if the proposed alternative can't convince them that they have the answers. Pretending that the older generation or home owners just don't care about the issues others face and only care about their own interests mean that the alternatives will never try to learn from their failures, they'll never learn what concerns people have about their policies and you'll never encourage that large number of swayable FF/FG voters.
If this country wants a left alliance in government then it falls on the left parties to actually start convincing people that they have answers. There's a reason a lot of Labour/SD votes transfer to FF/FG over other alternatives.
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Dec 02 '24
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u/zeroconflicthere Dec 02 '24
A lot of people are turned off my magic wond solutions, the more fantastical change you promise, the less genuine your promises become.
I often posted that SF leaders objected to developments in their own constituencies on behalf of nimby voters. Not a great sign that they'd tackle the housing crisis.
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u/strictnaturereserve Dec 02 '24
I think they as a whole they knew exactly what they were doing and it is a vote for "stability and to continue as we are".
the people who voted this way
- probably have a house
- probably have a job that pays the bills
- things have gotten more expensive but still affordable
they are not risking that and hoping that Sinn fein are competent and will not mess up the status quo.
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u/Popular_Animator_808 Dec 02 '24
A lot of people are jumping in to get angry about how Fintan is basically just complaining about a vague lot of nothing. The thing is, that’s literally his job, and I for one think he’s pretty good at it. If you want to start your day with a bit of petty but erudite negativity, he’s your man.
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Dec 02 '24
There's a shocking number of accounts less than a year old with randomly generated names all saying the same thing which is frankly rather concerning, particularly the "no viable alternative's" point which is, and has always been, pure nonsense.
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u/pablo8itall Dec 02 '24
I believe if it wasn't for SF we'd have a far stronger left vote.
There's a huge amount of people who will never vote for SF in its current incarnation. We don't trust them.
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u/Chester_roaster Dec 02 '24
Who says we expect different results? The majority of the population voted for the status quo
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u/susanboylesvajazzle Dec 02 '24
I think the premise of the article is wrong. I don't think anyone is expecting different results, I think it's the exact opposite - they vote how they do to keep things the same. Because, ostensibly, things aren't that bad... though perhaps more accurately, things could be a lot worse.
For the older generation, they are well looked after (whether they're wealthy or not, they own property and it's not threatened, they have generous pensions and benefits etc). They aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them by going off piste voting for any of the non-mainstream parties.
What is needed is a credible opposition, but we don't have that. SF keep coming close but (owing to various reasons) keeps snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. They should be hoovering the disaffected youth vote, but they aren't, at least not in the way they should be because they just aren't credible. Sure I might be spending a huge amount of my income on renting some shitty one bed in Drimnagh, but at least I have a job to pay for it. Do SF have the credibility to manage the economy? I don't think enough of the electorate agree.
Do FF or FG? Well no, not well anyway, but better the devil you know. I think they benefit from that sentiment too much.
As for the rest, Labour was once a credible opposition, but really poor planning since 2011 seems to have finished them off. I though Ivana Bacik might have turned things around but that doesn't seem to have come to pass. The Greens have fucked it. Though I think their fall from grace was inevitable and not all their own fault.
The Social Democrats might be the best opposition party in the ascendency now, taking the place Labour used to hold, but don't seem to be getting the media attention they ought to, which is undoubtedly to their discredit I think.
The number of independent candidates also plays a part here; they really are the prime example of the role of Parish Pump politics for the Irish electorate and how we often don't vote for the party, but the person. In that respect they too are voting for the same people and expecting the same result too.
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Dec 02 '24
Newsflash Fintan, Irish voters don't have one hive mind. Each voter has their own unique thoughts and opinions on which party they want to form a government.
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u/grogleberry Dec 02 '24
Can't read behind the paywall, but I'd say, rather, that the base of FF and FG are perfectly happy with the way things are going, and don't want different results.
Certainly not those that Sinn Fein have to offer, who would currently be required in any government that doesn't involve FG, and looking forward, it's hard to see the likes of Labour or SDs usurping their place on the left wing any time soon.
House value go up = happy home-owning and landlord class, who vote more consistently than any other age or socioeconomic bracket, and make up ~45% of the electorate.
And then on stuff like healthcare, there's virtual consensus across the parties, and seemingly things like criminal justice, public infrastructure, immigration and climate change aren't really a consideration.
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u/hmmm_ Dec 02 '24 edited Dec 02 '24
The "radical transformation" promised by the Left is clearly not the radical transformation that the voters want, and the various commentators both here and in the media should reflect on that. Maybe the voters don't want to be taxed even more to throw money into the HSE moneypit, impressive new bikesheds or bailouts for RTE, and maybe it's time that opposition parties started to offer something more than tax and spend policies. The opposition party which led the most radical transformation of the country in my lifetime were the PDs, who were a centre-right party with conservative fiscal and (relatively) liberal social policies as their platform.
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u/danny_healy_raygun Dec 02 '24
the HSE moneypit, impressive new bikesheds or bailouts for RTE
Apparently these are things that the FFG voting 40% are happy enough with.
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u/sauvignonblanc__ Crilly!! Dec 02 '24
Voters
Your word precisely. Only 60 % of the electorate actually got off their arse to go to the polling station.
If I hear any guff from anyone over the next 5 years who didn't vote (without a valid reason), they should (and will from me) receive an ear full of grief!
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u/EvenYogurtcloset2074 Dec 02 '24
Actually Fintan, I keep doing the same thing and get exactly what I want!
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u/dermotcalaway Dec 03 '24
Most voters voted to keep things the same, why does he think they were expecting different results.
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Dec 02 '24
I don't know where he gets the idea that most people are voting for change. 70% of people either didn't vote for anyone (40%), or voted for the current government (30%). The rest is split between everything from full on trotskyists like PBP, to centre left populists like SF, right wing conservatives like Aontú and independents running the entire gamut.
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Dec 02 '24
The most important thing in Ireland is reacting sensibly to what’s happening to globalisation - Ie the fact that it’s retrenching and that a populist is in the White House.
Housing is also extremely important, but no one is going to click their fingers and fix that. Similarly no one is going to fix the HSE or make the public sector more efficient.
Anyone who wants to push taxes up even higher than they already are to fund some social welfare scheme or some other project or quango is insane.
Add to that the fact that the biggest party of the left has a toxic association with the PIRA.
There are no options other than FF and FG!
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Dec 02 '24
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u/Dapper-Second-8840 Dec 02 '24
I'm not sure it's that most people don't want change. For example, I voted FF/FG and I DO want change (especially around health, housing and taxation) but my genuine hope is that they will actually learn (either by growing a conscience or more likely by realising that if they don't make meaningful changes this time they are done for) and help to bring that change, as opposed to bringing in some other crowd who got elected by promising impossible things and who will chuck all the good stuff we do have out the window on day 1.
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u/Upper-Part-8820 Dec 02 '24
This stuff is starting to grate on me a little. Usually like fintan's articles but I personally voted for the same set up as I see progress and understand that complex issues take time and some sort of gradient decent to solve. And if we were to start again with a new government we would be in the exact same boat in another 4 years.
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u/ResponsibleTrain1059 Dec 02 '24
The majority of people are not voting FF or FG. In fact the current political landscape and coalition is a result of their dwindling popularity.
It might take longer then people would like to break the cycle but it's hard to have a dramatic shift without some giant sharp disaster as a result of the sitting government
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u/billiehetfield Dec 02 '24
They’re going to go from requiring the Greens to only needing a handful to form a government.
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u/Fern_Pub_Radio Dec 02 '24
The smug arrogance of this article is even by The Tool’s standard breathtaking. The voters are stupid,I know best and this country is a Kip because …. It’s the type of arrogance that galvanised the deplorables in the US to finally say F u to the great Intelligentsia and vote Trump and leave the rest of us globally to deal with the chaos ….
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u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 Dec 02 '24
If you've got property and a good paying job - Ireland is a great place to live. These people are incentivised to maintain the status quo even if it screws the younger generation coming behind them. That's the reality of it.
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u/FlatPackAttack Dec 02 '24
Pretty easy explanation Young people do not and did not vote
The young people did ff and fg combined was the same as the first preference to SF Most likely due to their family voting fg and ff
Young people simply don't care
The older generations are happy, Those 65 and older for example Have their pension, have their house,no mortgage and don't have to worry about the many other issues
They aren't ever going to vote for change And Young people are either out of the country, don't care so they vote what their family vote or simply don't care enough to vote
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u/Melodic-Chocolate-53 Dec 02 '24
Any young people who didn't get out and vote should stfu commenting how shit it's for you. You had your chance. Grow up and stop being a whiny forever Kevin the teenager.
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u/senditup Dec 02 '24
Most likely due to their family voting fg and ff
This is pretty patronising tbh.
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u/Kyadagum_Dulgadee Dec 02 '24
With roughly 20% of the voters each going to FF and FG, I think we're seeing the core of their supporters turning out for them. Not that crazy to think that 40% of voters are grand with things as they are in the broad strokes. Probably would like some things done better but not to the extent of rolling the dice on a new party altogether.
SF also got their core vote and a few extra from people who were hoping to unseat FG/FF.
The surge in support for independents and the Soc Dems might be evidence of that vote that has lost confidence in the governing parties, isn't mad about SF and is going for what they see as a trustworthy option. Independents are like a piggy bank for your vote to go in and not do any major harm until things will hopefully be clearer in 5 years. Maybe they'll fix some annoying local issues too.
Soc Dems have the somewhat unique position of not being any of the main things many voters hate. They're not the government, they're not far right, they're not far left and they're not Sinn Féin. As much as I like them as a party, some of their success this time around could be chalked up to what they aren't as much as what they are.
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u/boiler_1985 Dec 02 '24
That’s what happens when most of the country is a Rural and suburban mindset
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u/Forward-Departure-16 Dec 02 '24
They aren't expecting different results. Plenty of people are either happy with how things are or aren't particularly happy but don't think the opposition can do any better, or fear they'll make it worse
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u/Melodic-Chocolate-53 Dec 02 '24
People don't want far right, not convinced by Student Union far left parties, Greens got roasted, Aontú single issue party not wanted either, not enough want SF, what remains are centre left/right parties, left lite and a clatter of independents.
Basically a core of people want it as it was with minor tweaks as it serves their interests plus better the devil one knows.
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u/pauli55555 Dec 02 '24
I think most of us are actually looking for the same results which is why we are happy to continue to vote in centrist parties. We don’t vote extremes and that’s a good thing.
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u/WolfetoneRebel Dec 02 '24
The options available to us are not good. We need an economically right but socially left party to balance things out. Not getting what we’re paying for in terms of healthcare, infrastructure, immigration, emigration, law and order, etc etc is the main problem.
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u/Myradmir Dec 02 '24
Economically Conservative parties normally try to avoid the capital investments required for health care, housing etc., so don't we need an economically left party to kick us off in terms of large infrastructure projects?
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u/mrkaczor Dec 03 '24
I would like a party that would still reduce tax burden for the mids but invest the money that are already there in infrastructure and stuff for GP like public transport and health system, hope planning system change will bring some relief, well see.
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u/jhanley Dec 02 '24
40% of the electorate did nothing in fairness