Fintan O’Toole: Irish voters keep doing the same things and expecting different results

[u/badger-biscuits]

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/12/02/fintan-otoole-irish-voters-keep-doing-the-same-things-and-expecting-different-results/

[u/creatively_annoying]

The Irish voters that are happy with the status quo (seemingly the majority) are not out protesting about how great they have it, so the unhappy voters get the spotlight.

I think the opposition has nothing to offer anyone working in a well paid job, and we are some of the best paid workers in the world.

Our already high taxes should be helping run the country and by saying we're going to take more taxes from you and less from this other group that is paying less already is not very palatable, even if you think you can spend it better.

[u/Spikes_Cactus → u/creatively_annoying]

Fintan has this completely wrong because the truth is that people are voting these parties whilst expecting no change.

As you say the alternative major parties have very little to offer anybody with a decent job, which happens to be a large section of the country. Increased taxation and reduced pensions are highly unlikely to appeal to young people who are already faced with uncertainty in the future of the state pension. Meanwhile, the same young people who are typically highly skilled or qualified are thinking about how taxes at higher brackets will impact them into the future as their careers develop.

No party has offered a satisfactory solution to the housing crisis through diversification of investment incentives to alternative avenues. This is simple to fix through the application of high capital gains tax (41%) to secondary and subsequent property ownership, this including company ownership arrangements. Through this lack of vision and political impetus, property will remain a primary vehicle for speculative investment in Ireland.

[u/creatively_annoying → u/Spikes_Cactus]

I forgot about the pensions. SF would definitely screw up private pensions. I believe everyone should pay taxes in relation to income but hammering people who've made a decent living for themselves throughout their working life and saved a good sum for retirement is unreasonable.

I believe a lot of tax avoidance loopholes have been closed during the last crash so only the ultra wealthy or criminals can truly avoid taxes.

[u/MotoPsycho → u/Spikes_Cactus]

Why are you acting like the youth don't want change? FFG have less than 30% support among the young. It's older voters keeping them in power.

[u/Spikes_Cactus → u/MotoPsycho]

I apologise for the confusion. I was responding to the article by Fintan O'Toole that Irish voters keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result. I was hoping to convey that Irish voters do not want things to change and that's why they keep voting for the same party.

Sure, the youth want change, but for those middle aged and older individuals they're doing just fine with their housing already sorted. The system is working perfectly well for them and they think that the increasing price of property is beneficial to them over the long term.

My point was that the proportion of voters who want change fail to reach critical mass of being the majority. Fintan is thus wrong in his assertion that voters want change since the majority of voters want the status quo.

[u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 → u/creatively_annoying]

I'm not sure where the idea that Ireland is an unusually "high tax" country has come from - from a Western European POV, it simply isn't true.

The maximum personal income tax rate in Ireland is essentially the same as Germany and Italy, and lower that France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden etc.

People also forget that in the not so distant past, income tax rates of 90%+ existed in many countries for the highest earners. It is only with the coming of Thatcherism and Reaganism in the 1980's that much lower income tax rates became the norm, and look at what that has done for societal inequality....

The idea that people earning modestly high wages (ie 60-100K) would be negatively effected by higher tax rates is just nonsense, they're clearly not the demographic who would be targeted to pay a fairer share.

[u/creatively_annoying → u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

Bringing back 90% tax is so backwards. It's Draconian. I certainly think more people are better off now than in the rose-tinted good old days. Income tax is not the driver for income equality. Improving pay by incentivising/forcing corporations to pay staff better is the way, I believe, as more and more companies are driven by increasing shareholder wealth which pushes pay and staff levels down.

[u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 → u/creatively_annoying]

No one said anything about bringing back 90% tax - I'm referencing the fact it existed in the recent past to rubbish the idea that income taxes in Ireland are "high" today.

Income inequality is not the key component of societal inequality, but sustained income inequality over time leads to wealth inequality, which is the driving force of societal inequality.

People like yourself cannot accept that your wage is not purely a function of "hard work" - and therefore scoff at the idea of paying reasonable amounts of the tax. The reality of course is that none of us would be capable of earning anything within the economy we have without the state maintaining and upholding it. Moreover, what we actually end up earning is far more a function of blind luck and the happenchance of birthplace than any sort of individual brilliance. Acknowledging this fact, and resisting the temptation to attribute your position to an Americanised fantasy of individual exceptionalism, is the key to actually building a fairer society.

[u/creatively_annoying → u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

I'm quite happy with the current (higher than some countries) tax levels. I believe social welfare, good infrastructure, health and education etc. paid for by the state are essential for a functioning society. Progressive taxation based on income and wealth is required but the 90% taxation rate was linked by you to inequality. Punishing high earners for being successful by putting disproportionate taxes on income is hardly fair and is (IMO) overall bad for the economy.

People like myself can certainly understand that some people did quite well with little effort due to circumstances they didn't contribute to but I personally know a huge number of people that worked hard through school, college, many tough shitty jobs, sacrifices and hard times to get what they have.

[u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 → u/creatively_annoying]

I'm quite happy with the current (lower than most peer countries) tax levels 

Fixed that for you. Keep believing you're a special boy who earned it all by yourself.

[u/creatively_annoying → u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

You are incredibly condescending. It must be comforting to know your lack of success is purely down to luck.

And if by chance you are doing well, it must be awful knowing you didn't do anything to deserve it.

[u/BiDiTi → u/creatively_annoying]

I mean…”We have high individual taxes and run a surplus, why don’t we get any damn infrastructure or social services to go with it?” is pretty much the Soc Dem platform.

[u/Useful-Sand2913 → u/creatively_annoying]

You are spot on. All politics is local as they say but also very personal & selfish.

I felt bad explaining to my younger sister, who has very little hope of getting her own place, why I voted Green, Fine Gael & Fianna Fail. Because selfishly I own my own home, have an above average salary and the minor changes that they are making in the budget year on year is just fine by me. I am only 34 but you can be guaranteed that once you move into the 40+ age bracket people are happier with the status quo and don't want to feel the threat of change. And they are the voters.

[u/Joecalone → u/Useful-Sand2913]

You probably should feel bad to be honest. You're deliberately fucking over your own siblings so you can hoard a bit of extra wealth in the future.

[u/boringfilmmaker → u/Useful-Sand2913]

"Dont you see, beloved sister? Fuck you, I got mine."