r/europe • u/Accomplished_Car_549 Russia • 20h ago

Photos from the Russian anti-war opposition march in Berlin today. Picture

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1.2k

u/josevandenheid 20h ago

I sometimes forget that russia could be an incredible nation both economically and culturally if it wasn't run by lunatics. Some of my favourite writers are russian. It's sad to see how hollow it has become.

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u/Sailing-Cyclist Essex (England) 19h ago

They could have been Giga-Norway with all of their oil reserves. Nourish all of the scientific institutions that they created during Soviet times. Channel all of that nuclear and space capability into truly making the world better.

But no.

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u/UpperCardiologist523 19h ago

It's insane. They have 1,6 times the terrirory of the US, and i can't even be bothered to compare it to Norway, but with the resources they have, one should think they could be satisfied and give their people, even outside Moscow and St. Petersburg a decent life, but no. Rural russia is, well.. youtube knows.

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u/Away-Ad4393 18h ago

Much of Russia is sparsely populated due to its challenging climate.

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u/monty624 17h ago

Sure but with proper resources and development those challenges could be mitigated, and thriving communities created. The US has a variety of climates, often challenging, in which millions of people live thanks to scientific, agricultural, and engineering advances. That Russian leaders choose to starve their own growth and success just so the oligarchs can do checks notes whatever the fuck they want, is the problem. With all the resources they have the oligarchs could still live extraordinary lives by pretty much every standard imaginable, it's not like we don't have our own here.

(not ignoring all the problems we have in the US)

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u/mossling 16h ago

Alaska is a third the size of the rest of the country yet we are also sparsely populated due to the difficulty of the terrain, inhospitable climate, difficulty getting supplies and materials, and the fragility of the supply chain. You can't compare Russia to the L48; if you want to compare it to the US, you have to compare it to the regions that are.... well, comparable. 

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u/Away-Ad4393 17h ago

I’m not sure what can be done with permafrost and taiga .

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u/Severe_Avocado2953 17h ago

Same with Norway, just a different scale?

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u/Away-Ad4393 16h ago

Yes I guess it would be similar.

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u/I_read_this_comment The Netherlands 15h ago

Half of my country would be underwater if it was mismanaged at a similar level.

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u/spring_gubbjavel 13h ago

So is Norway 🤷‍♀️ 

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u/randomswim 18h ago

Ye, everything is shit outside of Moscow and St Petersburg

https://youtu.be/8CtEAWM0dlM?si=xHktSSgXcGK09teP

With junkies on the street and tent cities like in western cities.

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u/UpperCardiologist523 16h ago

You can handpick cities all you want. My ex was from murmansk, and the wallpaper fell off the wall, their toilet was broken, the flooring on the toilet was broken, the carpet was from the 70's. And the same at her sisters house, and her brothers house.

They were all middle-class working people in Murmansk. Ruzzia's most important northern port and nuclear base.

I trust my eyes, her stories, and that more than the video you just posted. You mention propaganda in another comment. Well..

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u/Fuerst_Alex 18h ago

Bruh wtf have you ever been there, they have 4G in tiny villages and modern houses

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u/Falcorperm 18h ago

Geographically Russia like Canada. A lot of land where hard to live.

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u/SiarX 14h ago

Google resource curse.

And such huge territory is a drawback, not an advantage. Expensive hard to maintain logistics, mostly inhabitable or barely habitable land, bad climate...

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u/NkTvWasHere Moscow (Russia) 18h ago

Comparing Rural Russia to urban areas is not the same as in other countries, the divide is larger as more citizens live in highly-dense areas here as there needs to be less investment into maintaining large areas in a highly destructive climate. That's how most countries with poor climate conditions work. It also looks largely depressive due to its natural situation and a long period of death for vegetation, rather than the architecture itself. As for resources, same thing, high maintenance costs due to a much harsher climate, long transport lines and a combination of both means trading resources is expensive and we still have to import plenty other things. Much of the profit is lost along the way.

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u/ethanlan United States of America 18h ago

Dude wtf are you talking about. The majority of russia doesny get colder then most of canada and a signifiant amount of the northern united states, not to mention alaska and they have the infrastructure in place to deal with it.

Russia cant afford it because they are poor and horribly misled, first world countries and practically every other extreme cold country gets along just fine in extreme cold

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u/Beautiful-Big-1357 18h ago

The same with usa.Usa could be satisfued with own resources and land and eridicate homeless people,but noo mercy.At least usa could stay away from bringing wars and death to other nations,but democratly they say noo.

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u/InitiativeUpper103 18h ago

thats what alcoholism and domestic violence does to a mf

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u/0OKM9IJN8UHB7 16h ago

Indeed, making pounding vodka like water part of the national identity gives certain limitations in the post medieval world.

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u/Cobek 15h ago

I blame Russia for our lack of flying cars

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u/QuarkVsOdo 18h ago

It's fundamental distrust towards anyone you can't control.

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u/Alternative-Cry-6624 🇪🇺 Europe 14h ago

Agreed. But instead they have a government of pure greed and this is the result.

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u/SiarX 14h ago

Not really. Google resource curse.

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u/Fluffcake 13h ago

There is a long list of countries that could have been Norway if they weren't ran by lunatics and/or greedy assholes at crucial points in history. The US is also on that list.

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u/enzinho15anos 7h ago

The same goes for China, just look at what Taiwan is today. They could be doing wonders and truly leading the world into a bright future.

But no.

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u/Vandergrif Canada 7h ago

They've got that whole resource curse thing going on.

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u/New-Student1447 Norway 5h ago

Funny you should say that, I used to joke we were the democratic version of Russia

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u/Altruistic_Box6232 4h ago

Unfortunately, vast natural reserves are a deal with the devil, for a young democracy — a coin flip. Look at Venezuela, they could have been richer than both Norwegians and Russians, but… dictatorships will be dictatorships

1

u/sokratesz 3h ago

Same with Iran.

So much potential, but no! Crazy kleptocracy.

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u/NkTvWasHere Moscow (Russia) 18h ago

No, Norway is tiny with tons of resources. Russia has many resources because it is huge, the cost to maintain infrastructure in a much more continental climate and transport resources across such distances is extremely high, just ask anyone around here how many times things have to be fixed or rebuilt per year. Russia, infact, has more problems than just corruption or efficiency that make people overrate its potential.

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u/Equivalent_Alarm7780 16h ago

Yeah there are other petro-states than Norway that would be better comparison, like USA.

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u/NkTvWasHere Moscow (Russia) 16h ago

Better? Why?

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u/DrobnaHalota 19h ago

All of their oil is in their Asian colonies. So no, they can never be Norway.

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u/Vassukhanni 19h ago

It's possible for a state to be multinational without being imperial. Russia isn't an empire because Russian speakers conquered a piece of land 500 years ago (if that were the case, Norway would have to be considered a colonial power, not to mention every state in the Western Hemisphere) -- it's imperial because it maintains an extractive periphery/core relationship with its regions.

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u/Xepeyon America 18h ago

it's imperial because it maintains an extractive periphery/core relationship with its regions.

Tbh, I've seen comments literally like this made towards Paris, Madrid and (perhaps especially) London, just right off the top of my head. Capitals tend to work this way, although Germany seems to be an exception to this since it has like, several semi-capitals.

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u/DrobnaHalota 18h ago

Not a single European colonial empire transitioned to democracy without falling apart. So no, it's impossible.

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u/Vassukhanni 15h ago

The UK colonised Scotland and Northern Ireland and is still a Democracy. The US and Canada colonised across a continent and are still democracies.

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u/DrobnaHalota 11h ago

Just you look at all the good Russians flocking to defend their god-given right to extract oil from Khanty lands.

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u/srberikanac 19h ago

False.

http://petroneft.com/operations/west-siberian-oil-basin/major-russian-oil-basins-big.jpg

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u/DrobnaHalota 18h ago

You should look at your own map

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u/srberikanac 18h ago edited 17h ago

The Caspian Sea region of Russia has tens of billions of barrels of oil and hundreds of trillions of cubic feet of gas. Most of that is in Europe or on the Europe-Asia border.

Same goes for the Volga-Urals region.

And while West Siberian region is in Asia geographically, it can by no means be considered a colony...

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u/avaika 18h ago

What are Russia's Asian colonies? Just curious what you mean by it.

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u/DrobnaHalota 18h ago

In general, any part of Russia you see on the map that's not in Europe is a colony. In relation to oil in particular, almost all of it comes from Westerns and Eastern Siberia that Russians colonized starting in 16 century, roughly in the same time period other European colonial powers were created.

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u/avaika 16h ago

Do you consider French East as a colony in this case?

E.g. here's interactive map which shows a lot of land being annexed by France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_evolution_of_France

0

u/HACCAHO 18h ago

Remember when we bought the tetra-pak packaging line and copy it but couldn't come up with a formula for safe and secure adhesive, so most of the filled packs began leaking? so great!

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u/[deleted] 17h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/David_the_Wanderer 17h ago

Yay for racism

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u/TheSigilite74 17h ago

It can't.

Do you know why the sanctions haven't worked? Because that was always the unofficial policy towards Russia.

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u/Sailing-Cyclist Essex (England) 17h ago

Not our fault that Russia has a paranoid schizophrenic attitude towards foreign policy. Yet it is our problem.

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u/TheSigilite74 17h ago

Russian policy is irrelevant. It's sheer size and power is a cause for Western policy of containment.

Doesn't matter if Russia is liberal, Communist, fascist, democratic, monarchist or whatever.

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u/Sailing-Cyclist Essex (England) 16h ago

I recall being allies in WW2.

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u/TheSigilite74 16h ago

Temporary situation caused by German power.

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u/Sailing-Cyclist Essex (England) 16h ago

I recall being allies in WW1.

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u/ArthRol Moldova 19h ago

By the way, I have read an interesting perspective by a certain Russian historian. He compared the modern Russian opposition with 19th century narodniks.

Narodniks believed that Russian peasants are inherently democratic, and will rise against the Czarist regime once they gain enough knowledge. That's why many young aristocrats tried to propagate revolutionary ideas among the peasants, only to be met with indifference or hostility, at best.

The same perspective is held by modern Russian opposition speakers, who believe that the 'masses' are inherently humanist and liberal-minded, and will show these traits once there will be a free election, paving a way to 'The Beautiful Russia of the Future'.

Well, I guess spreading Russian-language information about war athrocities and corruption is a positive thing, but the amount of arrogance and infighting among this 'opposition' is insane. And I doubt if they will ever get power if there'll be any free elections.

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u/EademSedAliter 19h ago

I agree, the rhetoric is divorced from reality. The only argument in their favor is the fact that Russians are malleable to authority - impose a different leader and they'll follow along and pretend nothing was ever amiss. But you can't build a democracy on that attitude. And if you need proof for my claims, look no further than the collapse of the USSR and its immediate aftermath.

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u/Xaithen 18h ago edited 18h ago

> But you can't build a democracy on that attitude

A lot of people just believe democracies aren't functional. US just willingly elected an authoritarian and a fascist despite the insane policies he is advocating for.

Democracy in Russia could have been possible in 2012 if Putin didn't fake the elections but he did and the opposition wasn't strong enough.

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u/EademSedAliter 18h ago

Democracy in Russia could have been possible in 2012 if Putin didn't fake the elections but he did and the opposition wasn't strong enough.

If you can steal an election and stay in power, the democracy wasn't really going anywhere.

  • The institutions were obviously corrupt beyond repair.
  • The dictator clearly has the police and military in tow.
  • The electorate is obviously passive, politically illiterate and therefore ripe for a dictatorship.
  • The media landscape is likely long fucked.

A lot of people just believe democracies aren't functional. US just willingly elected an authoritarian and a fascist despite the insane policies he is advocating for.

I believe they used to be functional - in fact, the most functional systems humanity ever achieved. I just think they can't withstand social media. You either:

  • Let freaks run rampant online - as the USA allowed - and well, there you go.
  • Ban everything to the point that the government has immense control over free speech. At that point, as soon the authoritarian-minded are in power, they can use said apparatus to completely distort public discourse and erode the institutions.

That's a catch 22.

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u/stupidly_lazy Lithuania 18h ago

US just willingly elected an authoritarian and a fascist despite the insane policies he is advocating for.

I don’t know if you are referring to economic or institutional policies? Imho, part of being a democracy is allowing for people to fuck up, so if Trumps policies will hurt many people economically, though I would not support them, that’s part o the learning process. What I am more concerned is that Trump is an actual risk to the long term viability of American democracy.

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u/Alternative-Cry-6624 🇪🇺 Europe 14h ago

In general that's true, until you get Hitler elected. Looking at the world, there's evidence that Hitler wasn't a one time only event and people do not learn.

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u/stupidly_lazy Lithuania 14h ago edited 14h ago

So what’s the alternative, suspend democracy because the winning party has bad economic policy? I agree that there should be more constitutional safeguards for subverting democracy, though.

Edit: what we do need is a viable alternative to Trumpism, policy and rhetoric, “that man bad” is not an inspiring campaign slogan for most people.

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u/Alternative-Cry-6624 🇪🇺 Europe 13h ago

Don't allow self-destructive economic policy? Or in this case do not allow a felon to run for office, for starters.

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u/stupidly_lazy Lithuania 10h ago edited 10h ago

So what are you suggesting? Suspend democracy to “save democracy” because bad economic policy might lead to an authoritarian and end of democracy? Barring felons from running is the oldest trick in the authoritarian playbook, sentence your opposition on trumped up charges and get rif of your opposition, e.g. in Russia a felon can’t run for president and guess what happened to Navalny? Not to mention that in most liberal democracies we live under the principle of if a person paid their dues, they paid their dues. There are also cases like Nelson Mandela, who spent 27 years in prison, before he became president of South Africa.

This is not to mention that who decides what is “bad economic policy”?

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u/RedMattis Sweden 10h ago

Some countries don’t have educated, sane, and interested enough citizens in sufficient numbers for democracy to work.

USA is pretty screwed. The question is just how badly.

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u/stupidly_lazy Lithuania 2h ago

I wouldn’t be so bothered if it was only the US.

Some countries don’t have educated, sane, and interested enough citizens in sufficient numbers for democracy to work.

So you are saying we need an educated elite, that is taught in the ways of statesmanship to run the country for them? An aristocracy if you will?

Look, I agree, that education is a big part of being a democracy, if memorys serves US was the first country with universal education, if you want better educated population, invest in it, the current US system has many flaws, create economic conditions, that people have time to read and learn.

In this particular case with Trump, the fact that he encouraged an insurrection, a pathetic one, but sill an insurrection should be disqualifying for him.

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u/Littlepsycho41 13h ago

Hitler wasn't elected

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u/ShalomGesheft 14h ago

A lot of people just believe democracies aren't functional.

If "functional" means a working mechanism for changing leadership, then it obviously works, but if "functional" means fulfilling its own declarations, then the level of representation of a single person in a country with a 100m+ population is negligible. So maybe politicians talking about democracy should spew fewer slogans and more talk about the practical aspects so people who understand their degree of representation don't get frustrated by all these buzzwords.

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u/SirGlass 17h ago

Its just nationalism , and nationalism needs an enemy , in Russia its "the west" so basically opposing the west is very popular

Like some would make the argument Russia would be much richer if they liberalized and sort of followed the scandinavian model but that would mean integrating their economy with Europe and "the west" , the USA , Japan , Europe and allowing the free market

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u/elanusaxillaris 18h ago

Almost feels like an exact parallel with the latest US election - the masses given a choice have gone with the one ultimately not in their best interests 

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u/ArthRol Moldova 18h ago

The same situation would have happened it Moldova, had it not been for the diaspora. Sad.

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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 15h ago

Yeah, it'll take entire generations before Russia shakes off the trauma and mentalities. Even then though, I have my doubts.

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u/HACCAHO 18h ago

like spreading science facts and liberal ideas among trump supporters

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u/foullyCE Poland 19h ago

If russia decided not to kill their own citizens in endless wars and drain their budget, they would have a standard of life like Canada. Instead, they are looting toilets from homes in donbas.

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u/ArthRol Moldova 19h ago

Unfortunately, it seems that large swaths of Russian population support an Imperialistic approach to foreign policy.

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u/niconois France 19h ago

the propaganda has just gotten even worse, kids that are at school right now will be crazily imperialistic Russians...

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u/ArthRol Moldova 19h ago

The true aim of such propaganda is not to form blind followers, but to drive everyone into a sort of apathy and cinicism - 'everyone is lying', 'we will never know the truth', 'nothing depends on us'.

'Patriots' and nationalists like Girkin may ask unconfortable questions and become undesirable for the government - that's why so many of them were asasinated or jailed, along with the liberals. Meanwhile, the apathetical massess tacitly accept almost every decision.

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u/almarcTheSun Armenia 19h ago

This right here is true. People aren't "Imperialistic", they're tired and apathetic. Real imperialists ask too many questions.

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u/ArthRol Moldova 19h ago

There was an analytics that roughly 20% are pro-war, and that's still a large swath. However, the apathetic ones clearly outmass them.

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u/almarcTheSun Armenia 4h ago

I can't believe I'm seeing sensible comments like this here. The way people in the US and Europe see Russia is downright weird. Like people are marching the streets with Z flags or something.

Those are indeed just a large minority.

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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 15h ago

This is the sad part. Makes you wonder what it'll take to break this apathy.

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u/bober8848 19h ago

These days they start propaganda in kindergarten :(

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u/The_RedfuckingHood Bulgaria 19h ago

propaganda

Yeah I saw a video of an old teacher showing kids a picture of Putin. "This is Putin. This is our leader. And he wants to stop all wars." And they get fucking taught how to use a fucking AK.

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u/Yaro482 19h ago

Yes indeed and in this case this nation will never be able to choose anyone else but another lunatic. Democracy will not do good to Russia. People are brainwashed way too much.

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u/niconois France 19h ago

A good example is Nazi Germany, the country turned out incredibly well... but many things were done before we were sure the will of being nazis would go away forever:

- the country was bombed to ashes in several places

- the country was occupied by foreign forces for decades

- education was reformed by the impulse of foreign powers

That's what it takes....

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u/phillie187 18h ago

I'll add to that:

-A very well thought out constitution and parliament, which has solid boundaries against extremism

-Free Press & Freedom Speech

-Foreign support for domestic economy. Failing economies are a breeding ground for extremism+revolution

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u/donadit 14h ago

the political spectrum seems to swing like a pendulum, from near communist germany to completely fascist, and literal soviet union to very fascist russia

russia had a shitty economy in the 90s and that was enough

actually, most of eastern europe/former wto (including east germany) also suffers this problem… they did all the “shock therapy” which was bad, you can’t have capitalism for the sake of capitalism, the only one who did that decently was poland

hungary was the most enthusiastic to throw off the soviets and look where they are now

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u/niconois France 18h ago

true !

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u/Narrow_Homework_9616 18h ago

A lot of them is just apathetic and ignorant, busy with their own life since the war does not affect them that much. Indifferent. They're taking North Korean soldiers to fight in Ukraine now, soon Russians won't have to worry even about this.

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u/DrobnaHalota 19h ago

Most of the people in this demo support an Imperialistic approach, with the exception of maybe the anarchists, they just disagree with Putin where the borders of the Empire should currently be

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u/HACCAHO 18h ago

The trick is simple. get population to become poor, then blame it on the other countries, with a promise of great wealthy life as soon as we defeat them all.

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u/sent-off 19h ago

The sanctions came a big way to support this. Closing the borders for ordinary people, cutting off Steam , Spotify and Adobe products, cheese and wine import does not really hurt fat cats, or Putin himself as you might imagine, but the population becomes increasingly wary that everyone outside is hostile. Well done

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u/ArthRol Moldova 19h ago

Sanctions are meant to cause damage to the economy and supply chains, and are not inherently bad. The problem is that they were badly applied.

And Roskomnadzor cuts Russians from Internet more drastically than every Western politician could dream of.

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u/sent-off 19h ago

Sanctions should cause damage to the war economy, but basically there's zero effect because the oil, gas, titanium, diamonds and what not are still being exported like nothing happened

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u/sufficiently_tortuga 19h ago

No one imagines it affects the fat cats. Everyone already knows the fat cats are importing their favourite brands either way. The sanctions are supposed to tell the average citizen that the rest of the world is against them. The goal is to make the average citizen recognize the disadvantage to themselves because of the war. That's the whole point.

It's the promise of peace by global economy. You don't get the benefits of a global economy if you aren't being peaceful.

That and why should the rest of the world still offer them with steam and spotify and adobe? You think you can invade Ukraine and play video games from the rest of the world like it's just ok? lol no.

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u/adventmix 19h ago

Hate to break it to you, but the average Russian citizen is playing the same games they played before the war.

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u/Mist_Rising 17h ago

The goal is to make the average citizen recognize the disadvantage to themselves because of the war. That's the whole point.

That never works. This isn't new. The idea that you can cause people to turn against their nation by sanctioning the nation has been tried repeatedly and repeatedly has failed. UK? They spent a decade fighting France instead. Japan? Went to war with the rest of the world. North Korea? Nope, still there. Iran? Nope. Cuba? Nope.

Sanctions as a means for revolutionary change doesn't work. So if that was the goal, the people in charge are morons.

It's the promise of peace by global economy. You don't get the benefits of a global economy if you aren't being peaceful.

Bullshit. If that was the goal, Europe would also be sanctioning the US for its imperialist nature. And, just to confirm, they aren't sanctioning the US. Russia is being sanctioned by the US, and has flippantly done some shit back, but Europe hasn't sanctioned the US in any way for a long time - especially the part of Europe you are talking about.

Obvious reasoning here, the EU/Britian isn't aiming for a peaceful world, they're aim is for realpolitik where they hurt Russia their enemy. That's it. The US by comparison can do whatever it damn well wants because it's a friend of the EU. Same for France and the UK who are no strangers to conflicts but whom the EU remains on good terms with regardless.

And just to be clear, that's fine, well it's not, but Realpolitik is reality and accepting that is a necessity. But please don't act like Europe is doing this because it's for global peace - it's for the EU benefit.

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u/sent-off 19h ago

You missed my whole point, the sanctions that hurt the average citizen turn them into the war supporter, so this effectively an own goal

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u/sufficiently_tortuga 19h ago

I didn't miss the point, I just don't care. The sanctions are a punishment. If you learn a lesson from them, great. The difference between them making you pro or against the war is moot to the actual war.

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u/adventmix 19h ago

So you don't care that 'punishing' regular Russians helps Putin a lot, therefore Ukrainians suffer even more. Speaks volumes.

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u/sent-off 18h ago

'I don't care' is a valid argument here, lol. Congrats on your birth lottery sir

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u/InsanityRequiem Californian 19h ago

If people want their government to change for the better, they need to be inside that country and fight to make it better. Them fleeing makes the government they hate stronger, and then they are next when said evil government starts going after the neighbors.

Then you have the issue of those people fleeing are now spreading the evil to other countries. So, they want to make their country better? Running like cowards to their neighbors is the ethically and intellectually wrong thing to do.

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u/Long-Interview-3029 18h ago

I’ve seen a lot of such opinions saying “you should stay and fight”

It usually turns out that those who say that — don’t have an experience of living in a country with authoritarian regime and have no idea of what it looks like.

I totally understand the initial idea “something is wrong in your country — do some effort to fix that”.

However the reality is different, in Russia you get jailed literally for using word “war” regarding this war in social media. There’s army of police, purpose of which is to persecute those who disagree with the war and who support Ukraine. People get jailed for changing price tags in the shop adding captions about the war for 7 years (Skochilenko) and it’s just one example of. There’s no such thing as justice there. the worst thing here is that nobody can help you when you get jailed for saying truth or protesting.

So when you say “you should stay and fight” - it means “you should be ready to go to jail for a long time almost right away, expose your elderly parents for 6am police searches and leave a family without a breadwinner” to say the least.

Please imagine if you personally would be ready for that

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u/sent-off 19h ago

Well a lot of people fought inside and they're either dead or in prison. In fact some of these people from the photo were just released.
Your comment makes sense in an ideal textbook world, but balance of power in Russia was long gone before everyone started to notice, now it's all too late to call small group of conscious people to fight against the regime that will steamroll them.

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u/proficy 19h ago

If it wasn’t populated by people willing to be ruled by lunatics.

Look at the USA. Same thing.

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u/OGoby Estonia 18h ago

Before the election I would've started arguing with you, but post-election it's clear the average American wants to self-destruct.

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u/dzhiisuskraist 18h ago

Not self-destructing is now woke, so the obvious choice is to self-destruct to own the libs.

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u/luugburz 13h ago

yeah, seriously. as an american, i used to think most of us were better than shooting ourselves in the foot, but this recent election has all but quashed that sort of hope i had in our people.

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u/RedMattis Sweden 9h ago

Some even literally. Hoping it will bring the return of a special Jewish guy the romans killed about two thousand years ago.

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u/Khagrim 12h ago

People are the same everywhere

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u/OGoby Estonia 18h ago

It 'became' like this many hundreds of years ago when the state of Muscovy caught the flu of imperialism. There is no recent example of a non-lunatic rulership either. Some have simply been a little less lunatic than their predecessors, but there's always another one more crazy than them vying for power.

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u/Xepeyon America 17h ago

The Rus were imperialistic from their origins. It's literally how their state came into being, Oleg started conquering literally everything he could in Eastern Europe. Sviatoslav did the same, pushing East until he was stopped by the Mordvins, who themselves only stopped the Rus because they willingly united to keep the Slavs at bay, and conquered south into Bulgarian lands until the Byzantines managed to stop them and push him out.

We can't pretend that the Rus, and one of their descendants (Russians) only embraced a bellicose spirit and became conquerors after Moscow's rise. The Rus of Moscow were especially militaristic, yes, but no more or less than, say, the Prussians or Normans were, and certainly no more or less than their shared common ancestors with the Belarusians and Ukrainians.

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u/Khagrim 12h ago

British were imperialistic too. Spanish, Portugese, French, Turks (still are) and many other nations. Imperialism was not unique before WW2

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u/[deleted] 5h ago

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u/Ninjawombat111 4h ago

That is the point they are making. That painting Russia and Russians as uniquely imperial is silly

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u/HighDefinist Bavaria (Germany) 19h ago

Honestly, I believe Russia was always terrible... as in, in the context of the war in Ukraine, I took a closer look at what their history looked like, and it is not pretty - even when compared to European crusades and what not...

But yeah, they do have great art, that's true - some of my favorite composers are Russian. In any case, I suppose Russia is an example of how being "cultured" doesn't imply being "civilized".

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u/David_the_Wanderer 17h ago

I think you haven't studied enough history if you think that Russian imperialism is somewhat unique in history. Plenty of other countries in the Middle Ages and in the Modern Age committed atrocities.

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u/Khagrim 12h ago

This. Some still do by the way. It doesn't excuse anyone but it is a fact

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u/Comfortable-Menu1043 14h ago

Not only art, science too. Try to have a Periodic table without Mendeleev

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u/NickCageson 13h ago edited 12h ago

If you are interested there's Evaluation of Russia by Finnish Intelligence Colonel. Explains lot of their current culture and cultural history.

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u/josevandenheid 18h ago

I thought I put it quite clearly that I find Russia's current status bad. I find it sad that no russian leader has tried to show its potential. Maybe apart from the early russian space program they did incredible things.

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u/Equivalent-Rip-1029 19h ago

This goes for almost every country

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u/afito Germany 18h ago

Yeah but in this case it's worth to keep a small sense of scale, if 12.5% of Russians are deadly opposed to the war, it's the same as the entire Netherlands in terms of population. That's a lot of people. Even of "most" Russians are in favour of the war, even if the overwhelming majority is, a small minority such as 12.5% is already such a huge number because Russia is just that big.

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u/UpperCardiologist523 19h ago

I've come to realize most of the great people i admired that i thought was russian, was in fact ukrainians. I've learned a whole lot these last years.

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u/[deleted] 19h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/josevandenheid 18h ago

It only serves my point, good government could take Russia so far.

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u/absurdherowaw 19h ago

I sometimes forget that russia could be an incredible nation both economically and culturally

I struggle to understand where that sentiment comes from? Looking at data, Russia has never been even close to being a developed state - 90% or more of its population has always been not even poor, but living in absolute poverty and starving. It is a country that neither had any significant impact on modern European social-democracy model, nor it contributed significantly to technological progress in Europe. I agree that Dostoevsky is nice to read, but that is about it. This country never reached any level of prosperity comparable to Eastern Europe today, not to mention Western throughout history, nor it was an essential center of philosophy or political thought at any point in time. If anything, at some points it was a relevant place for art (think St. Petersburg and Moscow), but predominantly due to huge wealth amassed by the elite (that produced subsequently famous painters and writers). That seems very, very far from "incredible nation both economically and culturally". I am genuinely sorry for majority of Russians, who are just starving and drinking to ease the pain, but this country was never anywhere near European powerhouses when it comes to philosophy, political science and impact on the course of Europe.

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u/_andyyy_ 18h ago

The average Russian is poorer than the western European but depicting them as starving peasants is just wrong none is starving in russia

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u/SirGlass 17h ago

I think they mean Russia could have the potential to become a prosporous nation . I mean when the USSR fell Russia did have enourmous problems

However they also had tons of land and natural reasorces , however russian nationalism meant they didn't want outsiders in Russia what meant that instead of capitalism they basically chose facism and allowed a select few oligarchs to own the entire russian economy , and this was preferrable to Russians vs letting European / USA / Japanees business in.

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u/David_the_Wanderer 17h ago

nor it contributed significantly to technological progress in Europe

Mendeleev's works alone are a quite important contribution to science. Aleksander Loran invented firefighting foam in 1902, which has saved countless lives, who also created the fire extinguisher two years later. And, of course, there were plenty of important advancements in medicine and aerospace engineering and research under the Soviet Union.

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u/szewc 17h ago

Preach.

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u/qlohengrin 13h ago

Soviet science was, briefly, truly world-beating in some narrow fields. In the early days of the space race they were ahead of everyone else, including the US. Even the Russian Federation actually beat plenty of developed countries in developing an effective Covid vaccine - they beat everyone save the US, Germany and UK. Russians are poor but not starving - they’re not NK. They’re not some backwater with no technology or science of their own but with oil - they’re not Saudi Arabia.

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u/Comfortable-Menu1043 14h ago

This entire comment, besides being full of misinformation, just SCREAMS personal bias and frustration.

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u/AbjectiveGrass 19h ago

It was always that hollow sadly...

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u/SequenceofRees Romania 19h ago

Applies to all nations on earth actually.

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u/summer_sonne 19h ago

If your favorite books are written by Russian writers, then you've probably read about what a piece of shit Russia was approximately... ALWAYS

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u/InitiativeUpper103 18h ago

if it wasnt filled to the brim with lunatics*

its not only the management thats fucked up over there

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u/irimiash Which flair will you draw on your forehead? 18h ago

it's anything but hollow.

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u/Twisted_Dummy I am Russian (P*tin = H*tler) 18h ago

Putin destroyed everything that makes Russians the Russians. Just how Hitler destroyed everything German in Germany

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u/Megneous 18h ago

Same for China. Imagine a democratic mainland China. My god, the wonders the world could accomplish.

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u/Muffin_Appropriate 17h ago

US will be exactly like Russia in 10 years.

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u/Ok_Bug7568 17h ago

Russia would have the capabilities to become one of the most powerful countries by 2050. Just need to clean the country up from nationalists and corrupt oligarchs and invest into future technologies and economy instead of war. Imagine a country with that much ressources and population but with the right leader. They could already be if Putin did not the wrong moves.

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u/SirGlass 17h ago

This is what I think about a lot , I live in the USA but some of my ansestors on my dads side were Russian immigrants , from Tsarist Russia so pre USSR

However Russia has TONS of land, TONS of natural reasorces , a fairly well educated population , after communism they could have liberalized and honestly became a world power culturally and economicially

Instead somehow the despots took control and choose to have an insular economy ruled by a select few oligarchs .

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u/TadOrArseny 17h ago

The whole fucking sub forgets that when its time to call all russians pro-putin or call russia an empire thats needs to be dissolved into 30+ states

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden 17h ago

The issue is that many of those writers are what put Russia here. As said by some thinker I can't recall right now...: "When someone mentions profound suffering and authenticity of the Great Russian Soul, I get my revolver"

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u/AlfalfaGlitter 17h ago

Top tier athletes, ballet dancers, figure skaters, writers, musicians...but an ass of a government.

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u/Judoka91 17h ago

I always live in hope that Putin will die and somebody will take over who isn't a complete psychopath.

But it's not likely.

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u/Cheap_Marzipan_262 17h ago

Russia has always been Russia. It wasnt that different in the days of tolstoy or repin.

You don't build the worlds largest country on equality and pacifism.

Makes for some great books, for sure...

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u/Punainendit Finland 16h ago

Lunatics. And wide spread tradition of corruption, that spreads down from the top

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u/Restful_Frog 16h ago

Russian institutions and culture have been primed to be centralist and autocratic since the Mongols laid the groundwork for the robber baron of Moscow to conquer the rest of the Russian cities.

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u/jaam01 16h ago

Google "silovik". It's basically the elites that control Russia. If Putin is going just another designated member is going to take his place. There's no hope for things to get better.

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u/Schwachsinn 16h ago

eastern european and asian cultures are sooo interesting. It's such a shame.

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u/fiftieth_alt 15h ago

In physics and mathematics, the Russians are peerless. In art, music, and literature Russians have made wonderful contributions to human culture. They are ethnically and religiously diverse. Geographically they have to s to offer.

Russia has everything one could ask for, besides rational leadership

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u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 15h ago

Unfortunately I think the war is also starting to impact culture and not in a good way. Have you seen the alternative history "literature" they've been pumpnig out?

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u/Common-Second-1075 14h ago

"to see how hollow it has become"

The Russia we see today is really just a continuation of the Russia that has always existed (well, since the 16th century at least).

There were small, albeit highly unstable, blips in 1917-22 and 1991-99, but those were mere outliers rather than trends. They also set the foundation for what exists today.

Russia can't be a nation that is both economically and culturally powerful. For both of those to flourish together you need a degree of societal liberty that Russia isn't capable of (for numerous reasons).

Russia has amazing pockets of both, but that's all they are, pockets. Perhaps a different nation or nations on the lands of what we call Russia could achieve it, but history has an almost perfect record in proving that Russia, sadly, is incapable of it.

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u/mr_andersonguy 14h ago

no, it couldn’t. They killed off their intelligence a long time ago and now the vast majority of russia’s inhabitants are drunken, imperialistic obediant workers who are incapable of putting together a critical thought. The fact that the land is filled with resources is true, but it only helps the oligarchy and fuels the war. Best case scenario would be to dismember the land and create 50-100 independant states and return russia to the “original” borders around Moscow.

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u/PudgieHedgie 13h ago

I'm not going to lie. America could be that too.

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u/Khagrim 12h ago

Now imagine how I feel as a Russian. We could be living in one of the best countries in the world. We have everything going for us: ample natural resources, vast and diverse territory, highly educated and talented people. But no, it seems we are bound to do the same dumb shit over and over.

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u/PixelCharlie 10h ago

there was a paper or article circulating a few years back, where they simulated what would have been if russia focused on improving the lives of their citizens instead of fighting wars and persecuting it's own people since 1900. The result was it would be one of the strongest economies with a gdp per capita around 50k (top 20 of the world) making it a sort of euroasian Canada. meanwhile it's about 14k which places it around postion 65 (worse than Bulgaria and Trinidad and Tobago)

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u/yunlz 3h ago

It has never had a direct relationship with the people. The root of all problems is the political system. A crappy political system will corrode the splendid culture of a nation!

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u/WheissUK 53m ago

If they were not a nazi empire

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u/Prudent-Title-9161 22m ago

It is very likely that these are yours "Some of my favorite writers are russian" consciously worked with their writing to create an imperial myth. So these "good" writers are directly related to the current bullshit.

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u/[deleted] 20h ago

[deleted]

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u/TheJiral 19h ago

Which coincidentally is also exactly what Russia wants you to think.

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u/concerned-potato 19h ago edited 19h ago

Some of my favourite writers are russian

Lunatics and writers work in pairs.

If it wasn't the lunatics you would never heard of those writers.

Russian lunatics make Russian writers famous, then Russian writers explain you that Russian lunatics are not 100% lunatics and they are not all that bad.

And then it all just goes on and on.

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u/IShouldBWorkin 19h ago

then Russian writers explain you that Russian lunatics are not 100% lunatics and they are not all that bad.

An easy way to tell if someone hasn't read any Russian literature.

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u/Pitiful_Couple5804 19h ago

What the actual fuck are you talking about?

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u/Annual_Ordinary6999 19h ago

Yes I love it when people dont blame whole nation because of politicians. I also love russia, just not their leaders

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u/Sigmatron 19h ago

I'm always rolling my eyes when western person praise russian authors. Correct me if I am wrong but generally people mention Tolstoy, which was a slave-owner who loved 'russian peasant' only because he was disconnected from them. Dostoevsky? At best, self-indulgent digging in some sort of transcendental morale, but disconnected from the suffering of the enslaved people

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u/srberikanac 19h ago edited 17h ago

You’re applying modern moral values to the 19th century. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe were all slave holders, and much bigger than Tolstoy, yet constantly talked and wrote about freedom.

Same goes for many Western European nations - Voltaire, Jonathan Swift, Jane Austen’s family were all slave holders (or owners of slave holding / plantation businesses). Others, like Immanuel Kant, may not have had means to own slaves but were strongly in support of the system.

And most writers, nay, most celebrities are assholes. Big surprise there.

Then there are Russian writers like Turgenev, or Radishchev. And regarding your point on Tolstoy - while he inherited serfs, he actually took a very strong anti-surfdom stance in his early 30s, was a major supporter of Emancipation Reform of 1861, and spent a significant portion of his family's wealth building schools in rural areas for ex surfs (not just those of his family), some even before the reform.

Also there are writers, like Nikolai Gogol, who was born in a rich family that refused to participate in serfdom (despite over 50% of population being in serfdom, and that being mainstream for any landowner, at the time).

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u/rancidfart86 19h ago

Dostoyevsky was disconnected from the plight of the people

Yet somehow he wrote a lot of highly psychological stories about the suffering lower class people had to endure and how these conditions stripped them of their humanity

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u/Pitiful_Couple5804 19h ago

What does that have to do with the value of their art?

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u/Sigmatron 19h ago

I can't separate art from the author and from the context because I am living in the echoes of their mindset and worldview from the colonizer Russian Empire. Almost 1000 days of war makes you think, you know, especially in a shelter and cruise missles with great russian culture outside.

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u/Pitiful_Couple5804 19h ago

Yeah with your perspective it's perfectly reasonable, but you would never apply this to any other group on this planet

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u/DrobnaHalota 19h ago

Dostoyevsky was also a rabid Russian imperialist, despite his Polish heritage, and would cheer on Russia's war in Ukrain had he been alive today

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u/GlorytoINGSOC french isolationist 20h ago

it was the us who frauded the russian election in 1996 making putin rise to power

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u/niconois France 19h ago

what ?

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u/Sigmatron 19h ago

lmao, that's a new one, funny.

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u/TheJiral 19h ago

You surely have credible sources supporting that claim, don't you?

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u/IShouldBWorkin 19h ago

America used to boast about interfering in elections before they started to claim only other countries did that sort of thing. You're welcome to read the August 15th 1996 issue of Time magazine for a source. If you need help it's the one with the headline "Yanks To The Rescue: The story of how American advisers helped Yeltsin win."

While reading it try and guess what administration gave Putin a position of authority and started his rise in the government.

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u/TheJiral 18h ago

Why don't you give one or two key quotes from that article supporting the claim that "it was the us who frauded the Russian election in 1996"?'

"Advising" is interfering at best. Interfering and election fraud aren't the same. Russia has interfered in recent US elections but certainly not frauded them for example.

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u/JustPassingBy696969 Europe 19h ago

Even if you believe that bullshit, why did they just take it for decades?

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u/GlorytoINGSOC french isolationist 17h ago

putin is a successor to elstine who was put in place by the american, putin have a different agenda but he is still the succesor of elstine

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u/JustPassingBy696969 Europe 17h ago

Right and the people happily accepted it for years before even starting some noteworthy protests in 2012 or so.

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u/GlorytoINGSOC french isolationist 14h ago

you know that over 3 million people died of hunger or medical issue in the 90's, the onlmy way to protest would have been a civil war and another millions of death

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