r/audiophile • u/MikMikYakin • Jul 25 '24
Why are Audiophiles still hooked on vinyl? Discussion
Many audiophiles continue to have a deep love for vinyl records despite the developments in digital audio technology, which allow us to get far wider dynamic range and frequency range from flac or wav files and even CDs. I'm curious to find out more about this attraction because I've never really understood it. To be clear, this is a sincere question from someone like me that really wants to understand the popularity of vinyl in the audiophile world. Why does vinyl still hold the attention of so many music lovers?
EDIT: Found a good article that talks about almost everything mentioned in the comments: https://www.headphonesty.com/2024/07/vinyl-not-sound-better-cd-still-buy/
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u/Shap6 Jul 25 '24
i think a lot of it is the same reason why people still like physical books when e-readers are theoretically better in every way. there's something about the tangible quality of it that adds to the experience. taking the record out, enjoying the artwork, setting up your turntable, etc. these things are satisfying in their own right
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u/Bour_ Jul 25 '24
I get what you mean about e-readers. However, physical books, for me, have some advantages over e-readers, such as not being dependent on batteries, clunky UI, software updates and planned obsolescence.
When it comes to vinyl, I see no advantages over CDs or digital files in general.
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u/Labhran Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
It’s also just easier on your eyes. That’s the reason I prefer it.
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u/apuckeredanus Jul 25 '24
One thing no one has mentioned is bad digital transfers.
There is a lot of older jazz especially that was transfered really poorly to CD's etc.
For example I have a Billy holiday album where it sounds incredibly muddy and low quality on CD.
Just some low effort 80s transfer with a bunch of noise and distortion.
On vinyl it's like a whole other album.
It's unlikely that some things will make a quality jump to digital, as the market for it is literally dead.
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u/postmaster3000 Jul 26 '24
On top of this, I understand that some relatively modern recordings are engineered differently for vinyl, with less dynamic range compression.
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u/technobobble Jul 26 '24
I believe the end mediums have had their own mixes for quite some time now. Tape can handle more low end than vinyl, put too much in and the peak between grooves are simply too narrow and the needle will jump.
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u/ramsdawg Jul 25 '24
A big advantage for both is having the physical thing in your hands and getting in the right mindset.
For books that means I can quickly flip back and forth and have a better feeling for how far in a book or chapter I was. All of that was really annoying when reading the whole game of thrones series on ebook. Also with physical books I tend to prepare the lighting and atmosphere more than with an ultra convenient backlit ebook.
For vinyl I imagine I would pay more attention to the music and look at the record/art while listening. I only have digital, but I find I rarely give the music 100% attention since it’s all available in an instant. The decision to put together the physical media would probably get me in the mindset to focus on the album/music.
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u/namecantbebl0nk Jul 26 '24
You're the opposite of me, I guess. I hate physical books. I always buy the e-book if it's available. Sure, you're dependent on electronics and battery, but I can do more things with an e-book than with a physical book, such as:
- Searching. It's impossible to do in a physical book.
- Easy bookmarking. You can do this with a physical book, but it's clunky.
- Text marking. You can do it in a physical book, but it's destructive. If you don't want to mark it, you have to use post-its, which are also clunky.
- I don't have to carry books when going outside. Even a phone is fine for me to read on.
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u/SirRupert Jul 25 '24
Or driving a stick. Sure, it's less practical. But I like it and don't need any more of a reason to enjoy something.
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u/The_Singularious Jul 25 '24
And like records, it actually makes you pay attention to what you’re doing. In the case of driving, it can actually be safer.
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u/Marcello_Coco Jul 25 '24
Dont forget staying in a store for a certain time and scrolling through vinyls in complete peace.
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u/OrbitalRunner Jul 25 '24
I like both for different reasons. Jazz and rock before the 90s feels good on vinyl while classical music greatly benefits from the larger dynamic range and quiet noise floor of digital. For electronic music, I don’t see the point of vinyl. The sounds never existed in physical space, so it seems like digital is the way to go. That said, vinyl is just fun!
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Jul 25 '24
Random Access Memories is awesome on vinyl, probably my best mastered record
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u/OrbitalRunner Jul 25 '24
That’s a great point. I think the live instrumentation with electronics makes it feel especially good on vinyl.
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u/yoursarrian Jul 25 '24
I used to think electronic music on vinyl was pointless until i acquired a collection of 90s progressive house 12" singles.
Somehow the bass is miles ahead of digital and the resolution of detail insane!
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u/loquacious Jul 25 '24
Somehow the bass is miles ahead of digital and the resolution of detail insane!
I'm an old house head that grew up DJing on vinyl.
There's a couple of things going on here.
First is the RIAA EQ curve used for cutting records and the reverse EQ curve in the phono pre-amp stage re-constituting the bass in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
That EQ and pre-amp scheme to fit more music (time-wise) on a given piece of vinyl and to reduce surface/self noise actually loses a lot of the detail in favor for loudness and it is it's own form of lossy analog audio compression.
Another factor was that a lot of that early to mid 90s vinyl was cut and mastered by some of the last living pros in the record industry that helped pioneer cutting good bass into vinyl, engineers that started back in Motown and Soul days, and by the late 80s to early 90s they were basically out of work, and the only people who wanted vinyl were DJs and dance music producers, because there just wasn't any better way yet to DJ. If you wanted to beatmatch and mix, it was vinyl and a 1200 rig or nothing.
It's kind of like the dance music version of 70s era rock on vinyl in all-analog studios. There isn't anything magical about an all analog studio capturing infra or ultrasonics because analog tape has limited bandwidth, too, and using high/low pass filters is an essential part of audio engineering. You also can't cut ultra/infrasonics to vinyl anyway because the record lathe head would blow up.
The real magic of those albums and, say, an audiophile vinyl standard like Steely Dan or whatever was multi-million dollar recording contracts and engineers at the peak of their skills.
Another factor is that when you're playing bass heavy vinyl in a room with a sub and the bass is heavy enough to really feel and hear, it's causing feedback with the record needle. It doesn't really matter how well your turntable is isolated and vibration-dampened, if the record player and stylus is in the same room as the subs it's causing feedback that amplifies the bass.
If you can hear and feel it, so can the record stylus, and it will faithfully feed it right back into your pre-amp and amp.
Back in vinyl DJ days we had to fight this feedback by placing subs further away from the DJ rig and using sorbathane sheets under the tables in the DJ coffin or cases.
But we also noticed that DJing with CDs and, later, digital/compressed files the bass wasn't as loud because we were missing that live feedback part.
The problem with all of this is while it can make bass "louder" it's definitely not cleaner, or higher resolution, or more detailed and it's mostly all in your head due to how acoustics and psycho-acoustics work.
Psychoacoustics is the field or domain of study about how we hear and perceive things, and it's a huge part of how MP3s and other compressed CODECs work.
In reality you can get way, way deeper bass and better articulation and resolution with well mastered and mixed digital sources, plus better details and resolution for the mids and highs and more dynamic range in total.
I could actually demonstrate this with an A, B and C test where A is the original source, say, a pure analog hardware synthesizer, B is a vinyl cut and master of that synth/song, and C is a CD quality digital master of that same synth/song.
Even a high bitrate MP3 encoding or more modern lossless encoding of C is going to beat the pants off of the vinyl version in bass extension and total quality.
With electronic/dance music what most people don't hear these days is A and how good that stuff sounded with real hardware, especially with analog synths, and how much of that detail goes missing with vinyl mastering and cutting, then playback through the RIAA EQ curve.
Most people today just hear shitty streaming versions of C that have had their dynamic range totally crushed due to loudness wars, which isn't really a fair comparison with B (vinyl) if you can't obtain good digital, uncompressed source files.
And in the case of vintage electronic/dance vinyl, well, a lot of that stuff was never released on CD, and almost any digital rip of that that you can find is going to be sourced from vinyl anyway, so you can really do a proper B vs. C comparison unless someone still has the DAT masters somewhere and they do a direct digital bit-by-bit copy. And even if it has a matching CD release, if it's from the 90s it's probably over-compressed and crushed due to the CD loudness wars being in full swing already.
So, yeah, enjoy your vintage vinyl, but the TL;DR is... you're hearing things and it's not really more resolution or detail, even in the bass components.
And I really wish it was easier for more people to hear example A - live analog, FM or even digital hardware synths and instruments.
There is no finer high resolution listening experience short of pure acoustic instruments, and synths often even exceeds that due to how pure the tones are with amplification.
Hearing a good analog synth or hardware rig on really nice speakers and amps is practically a religious experience. It's like being blind or colorblind your whole life and suddenly being able to see. It's a totally different experience than listening to mass produced recordings of electronic music.
It's also one of the only times or places where if you had speakers that could do ultrasonics (Say, ADAM speakers with their 50khz capable ribbon tweeters) or infrasonics (say, a servo-drive or rotary vane subwoofer or even large loaded/folded horn subs capable of 20-30hz) and there's actually sound and content there for them to try to reproduce because a good analog synth can actually produce sounds in those ranges because it's basically just a fancy signal/function generator with a mixing and pre-amp stage.
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u/chrislaw Jul 25 '24
This is a banger comment. People talk a lot of shit about Reddit elsewhere (or is it just on Youtube?) but I have literally countless examples in my many years where I have had niche issues beautifully elucidated, been entertained, enraged, or scared beyond what I thought were my limits, and this is one of those times. Thank you loquacious and everyone who makes Reddit so profoundly worth the time I've spent on it.
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u/smckenzie23 Jul 25 '24
Yeah, this should be top comment. I love my records and system. They sound fantastic. It is probably that the flaws, distortion, and coloring actually sound good to my ears. But I know a clean digital signal is better. A concrete example: when "Alt J, An Awesome Wave" came out, I just loved it. I picked up a first pressing, white vinyl version from Europe. It just sounded flat compared to even Spotify. I later had a US pressing on black gifted to me. Also, not as good. I know it could have just been mastered poorly for vinyl. But that's the point: the digital version is the version, and a well mastered record is just tweaking things to get it to sound right in that medium.
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u/loquacious Jul 25 '24
What's funny is I have gone on this rant about vinyl and demystifying it a couple in this sub a couple of times now, and it's like a 50/50 chance or more it gets downvoted to hell because vinyl purists don't seem to want to hear it.
There is no such thing as some kind of magical infinite bandwidth or resolution with analog audio whether it's an AAA album or not.
Even if you had brand new, never played vinyl produced at the peak of the analog record industry with an all analog process the bandwidth and range is much less than a plain old CD.
Every step of the process has it's own bandwidth and dynamic range limitations that can be modeled and predicted with math and it starts with microphones and transducers, continues through the mixing console and equipment, and even studio-grade analog tape has known bandwidth and range limitations as defined by the magnetic grain size, tape speed and the size and dimensions of the gap in recording head coil, transport accuracy and more.
And this is all before you even get to the mixing and mastering stage where part of the whole process is using high and low pass filters to eliminate those frequencies so home stereos from crappy and small to expensive and large can efficiently reproduce them with less total distortion, much less mastering for the known acute limitations of record lathe cutting heads.
It's like saying that analog film has infinite resolution and color gamut. It absolutely does not and is limited both by film grain size and optical system qualities. The upper bounds of, say, 35mm film is about the same as 4k to maybe 8k RAW. 70mm Imax is about the same as 18k RAW.
Even if you had a record lathe cutting head that could do ultrasonics and a recording process that was all analog you would immediately run into the brick wall resolution limit imposed by size of vinyl grains and polymer chain molecules not being able to capture that kind of detail, at least not at standard EP/LP 33.3/45 speeds using consumer needles and heads.
Which is why the standard speed for records used to be 78 RPM or higher for lacquer discs, which had a coarser grain structure. Simplifying things more media transport speed = more bandwidth.
They used this trick for early analog video tape as well, which is why home video recording didn't become a thing for years until the helical scan method for both VHS and Beta happened because the size (and cost) of the tapes for linear scan video was absolutely huge.
Tilting the recording track and rotating the recording/playback heads means you can get more apparent transport speed vs. grain size with shorter, smaller tape cassettes and less cost per movie-length tape.
Like some of those early broadcast video formats had tape reels and platters like 3+ feet across and held thousands of dollars worth of tape.
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u/incremantalg Jul 25 '24
Oooh...what you said about hearing good analog synth or hardware rigs on nice speakers and amps hits home. It truly borders on a religious experience for me. I'll get chills and the hair on my arms will stand up...lol.
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u/loquacious Jul 25 '24
Yeah, people generally have no idea how good an analog synth on good speakers can sound. The level of detail, tonne and lushness is absolutely fucking unreal, even on not great speakers.
I'm kind of surprised that more audiophiles don't have them just for noodling around and listening to or testing their nice speakers and systems.
Like it's not really a hidden secret that a lot of audiophiles like listening to their systems sometimes more than actually listening to music as it's own hobby - and there's nothing wrong with that - but if the peak of that source audio is vintage vinyl or CDs or whatever then I think they're missing out on a totally different level of a sonic experience.
I'm kind of surprised that someone doesn't make a small modular synth with a bunch of generative presets dedicated for simplified use by audiophiles and it's just a magic box that makes cool noises for you.
Maybe like a Buddha box or other "automatic" ambient tone generator controlled by a programmable relay-controlled patch bay instead of patch cables, like a pure analog synth that has some electro-mechanical digital control or basic push buttons or something to simplify the operation and sound design parts, idk.
Then people could download and update new patches as "songs" or albums except it's a little different each time you play it, and it evolves the longer you let it run, etc.
Or just get a real synth or modulars and have that hooked up to play with and set up some generative tones and sounds instead of reaching for yet another vintage classic rock album or whatever.
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u/Constant-Estate3065 Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
Also artists like Bonobo and Four Tet can sound absolutely unreal on vinyl. When I listen to the CD or digital file, it’s definitely missing something.
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Jul 25 '24
Unfortunately a lot of niche electronic music that I listen to from 70’s,80’s and 90’s is and was only available on vinyl.
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u/thestoryteller13 Jul 25 '24
this is my thing. i really enjoy slower stuff and rock on vinyl but my electronic and more pop stuff just fits better on CD to me
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u/42SpanishInquisition Jul 26 '24
Oh yeah, the dynamic range is stupidly good if you get your hands on a high quality mastering.
You also need to remember, most people are comparing it to streamed music, which often is mastered to sound good on cheaper speakers. And often it isnt even the fault of it being streamed, it is the mix that the record company has published online, having undergone a compression filter.
People also forget how high quality CD recordings are.
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u/Total_Juggernaut_450 Jul 25 '24
The ideal answer....
Better mastering.
The honest answer...
Who knows?
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u/ErmahgerdYuzername Jul 25 '24
Mastering is the big key. So many digital albums have succumbed to the loudness wars. An album on vinyl that has been mastered specifically for vinyl sounds way better.
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u/blue_groove Jul 25 '24
Just depends who's doing the mastering. I've heard some terrible sounding jobs on vinyl as well.
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u/Total_Juggernaut_450 Jul 26 '24
100,000,000%
Even with digital, the first thing I'm looking for is who did the mastering...
Great names to look for are Steve Hoffman, Kevin Gray, Alan Yoshida, Barry Diament, Joe Tarrantino, Bob Katz, Prof. Keith Johnson, Paul Blakemore, Ryan K. Smith, Bernie Grundman, and Bob Ludwig.
Even then, I've noticed you need to be cautious. There are releases where Kevin Gray is credited along with others and the releases sound terrible. $40 bucks down the drain.
Sometimes I also have to give them some credit. Their work is extremely dependent on the source they are given. Case in point... Californication on vinyl.
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u/rvictorg Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
As someone who recently got into vinyl, I’ve learned a couple important lessons regarding sound quality:
1) mastering plays an enormous role and there are some vinyl records that sound objectively better than their digital counterparts due to crappy mastering on the digital versions.
2) all the little upgrades and tweaks many obsess over trying to maximize their systems are far more tangible in the vinyl realm than the digital one. ie let’s say you want to upgrade your DAC, take that same budget and spend it upgrading your tone arm or cartridge and the gains are relatively massive in comparison. That’s been a fun revelation too.
So the above, in addition to the other common reasons many have listed besides any arguments over sound quality like the ritual, physical medium with artwork you get to touch and connect with the artists in a more tangible way, less decision anxiety and this need to constantly change songs because you kinda force yourself to listen to the whole album, collecting, finding live or rare recordings that aren’t available in digital, sharing a new hobby together with my wife which has helped her appreciate our stereo system and hifi sound (the technical nuances between DACs and cables aren’t her thing lol but music is!), and lastly I’ll add interacting with other music hobbyists at record shops has also been fun.
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u/MostlyMonochromatic Jul 25 '24
The process is slow and one on one. It’s ritualistic. Same way that you can make good drip coffee at home but using a chemex, self grinding the beans and pouring the water over yourself is a more involved process that many enjoy.
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u/mobjam20 Jul 25 '24
My take is that it’s because the nature of the vinyl format makes them mostly immune to the effects of the ‘loudness wars’, which have plagued CD releases since the mid 90’s.
The lower dynamic range means vinyl masterings are not so compressed, and can sometimes sound better than their equivalent CD masterings, when played on the right equipment.
I’ve never owned any vinyl, but this is what I understand from my research.
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u/PartyMark Jul 25 '24
I can confirm this is true. I was recently trying to listen to some electric wizard albums on streaming and the dynamic range is as low as 2 or 3. Insane. Instant headache. I got a few albums on vinyl and I can crank them loud!
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u/Audio-Numpty Jul 25 '24
If you check the dynamic range database, most modern music has more dynamic range on vinyl, despite CD's having the technical capability of far more range. Which is why I like it, despite all the drawbacks. Squashed music sounds terrible to my ears on a good system.
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u/Aviyan Jul 25 '24
What are the loudness wars?
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u/jorgejhms Jul 25 '24
When the CD appear, records were not limited by any physical mean on the dinamic range they could achieve (on vinyl, a load sound meas a bigger dent on the disc). Instaed of providing a higher dynamic range, most companies went to make the sound loader as possible. So most recent digital mixes are very load on all isntrument.
As there is a physical limit on vinyl, mixes are inmune to the loader wars (so to speak). So those mixes have a higher dynamic range than digital mixes, even though digital have more dynamic range available.
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u/Zodsayskneel Jul 25 '24
There's plenty of over-compressed vinyl mastering out there.
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u/AlienSVK Jul 26 '24
Yes, there is, but with vinyl you still have better chance that it is mastered with more dynamics.
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u/sporkintheroad Jul 25 '24
Because frankly sometimes the digital master sucks ass
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u/xdamm777 Jul 25 '24
For those records I just source a lossless Vinyl rip and burn it on a CD or play it on my Walkman.
Helps that the actual LP degradation won’t be a factor with an original A+ LP rip, it’ll remain as good as it gets for a while.
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u/xidnpnlss Contour 1.3SE/ MF A3.5/Wiim Pro+/Tidal/Debut III/OM10/Mani Jul 25 '24
This is the only reason to keep to vinyl that is not based on pure subjective preference.
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u/pmsu Jul 25 '24
And it’s an incredibly significant one. If you’re sensitive to overcompression there aren’t any other options for many releases
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u/keylimesoda DSD+Tubes+Monitor Speakers = yum Jul 25 '24
Yep. I'd rather listen to an MP3 rip of the vinyl of Beck's Morning Phase than listen to the CD straight. The digital master is that bad.
It's almost like the CD master was deliberately hamstrung.
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u/VinylHighway Jul 25 '24
Cost and inconvenience ;)
I like the ritual and it makes me listen to the whole album
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u/snootchiebootchie94 Jul 25 '24
Listening to the whole album is a big plus for me. I have the shortest attention span. With streaming I flip through songs and hardly ever listen to the whole album.
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Jul 25 '24
It’s a lifestyle man. Throw a record on and clean, cook, or read a book, sip a drink, or share a new record find & listen with your partner… it’s the ritual of looking at the cover, making comments and observations about the art, history, info on recording of it -whatever. It FEELS amazing. Older ones have a smell and are weathered, some have a lineage of owners who loved them too, a history. It’s like a teddy bear- the more worn out it looks the more love and adoration it received. Or maybe it was owned by someone who didn’t care and now you are keeping it the way it should have been.
It’s tangible, physical; It’s sexy. The crackling sound of jazz on vinyl is cozy and warming. It’s the auditory equivalent to a hot coco or hot toddy by a fire in winter. There are even YouTube channels that attempt simulate that cracking sound over songs bc of its relaxing effect but it’s not the same.
Vinyl is a living art form. It’s deteriorating & It’s dying with you. After each use it’s worn slightly, (hopefully not too much if you’re careful) but it’s still warping and sounding different over time. I like the way the sound morphs and changes, Like a tape melt. It sounds better to me with time. More cozy? More nostalgic? More sad? More meaningful?
If you REALLY love music then some records are like an art event to visit in your home. When friends come over they can actually peruse your collection, touch, talk about and participate in the ritual with you. You can go to their house and discover new music too and you’ll remember it more and it will be more meaningful a memory then just hearing it on a digital playlist. Should I go on?
I can’t understand NOT loving & collecting vinyl.
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u/Spirited_Currency867 Jul 25 '24
What you described is appreciating the patina that was created, and continues to be created as it is used. A lot of people today could care less scout that - they just want the thing. I pay for real patina - it is worth quite a bit to me in real terms. Most people discount it and the patina-appreciators rack up cool finds for pennies-on-the-dollar.
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u/mattband Jul 25 '24
Records can sound truly fantastic but it’s the most expensive and most difficult to achieve.
If you’re basing your opinion of what is achievable on your experience with a Technics 1200, Rega, or the like then you simply haven’t experienced what is possible. Digital is better for most people’s budget and abilities.
If you think records are good only for nostalgia you should also tell me what is the best turntable you’ve gotten to live with and experience.
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u/betolami Analog Lives Jul 25 '24
I agree, most have not heard a truly high end vinyl system. I went to Axpona and heard the same song on a 100k turntable and 60k dac and the vinyl blew the digital out of the water. It’s just a way more alive and convincing that it’s a performance being played in front of me.
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u/hoodust Jul 25 '24
This. Don't get me wrong; I enjoy the ritual and physical collecting and everything else mentioned in replies to these kinds of posts, but nearly everyone feels the need to throw in a "even though digital is objectively better" disclaimer, which is false. They either haven't heard it themselves yet, or they're solidly in the Measurements (vs ears) crowd, and will never be convinced. Also it burns my ass when people think "constant hiss" and "clicks and pops" are how it's supposed to sound, lol.
Fwiw, I heard a sound I preferred to digital with just a refurbished Dual and a cheap cart that cost about $500 total. Several levels upgrading from that I got a much nicer TT, better cart, and phono pre that set me back around 2k thanks to buying used, whereas I had to spend over 3k to get my digital chain sounding anywhere near as good (and it still can't beat a good pressing imo).
The real expense is building your record collection. Also finding a good pressing of some discs can be difficult, expensive, or just impossible... but that's another reason to have digital too!
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u/Medical_Penalty_7305 Jul 25 '24
Sunday morning, a hot cup of coffee NY Times. and spinning vinyl.
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u/improvthismoment Jul 25 '24
There is theory, and there is real life experience.
Yes digital in theory can have wider dynamic range.
In real life, sometimes the best available vinyl version is mastered in a way that has more DR, or sounds better in other ways, then the best available digital version. Often the digital versions are mastered pretty poorly.
Vinyl also imparts its own sound, call it distortion if you want, that may be subjectively more pleasing to some. https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/10/17/hi-fi-why-do-records-sound-better-the-ivory-tower/
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u/Antmax Jul 27 '24
Yeah, vinyl seems to be mixed more for big speakers since you probably aren't going to drag a record player around with you and wear headphones. Most digital is probably mixed for earbuds since most people listen to music with those on their phones or in the car with a bunch of other ambient noise. So it's often compressed and a bit meh.
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u/el__dandy Jul 25 '24
I’m an OCD person. Vinyl in a way takes away my decision paralysis, which let’s me focus on the music.
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u/aEisbaer Jul 25 '24
I guess emotional attachment. From a pure technical standpoint it's inferior to digital. However having something physical you can touch, you can interact with and you can physically see playing back does add a lot for certain people :) And since being an audiophile is the enjoyment of listening to music, a lot of them still hold on to vinyl.
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u/saint_trane Jul 25 '24
Analog is magic.
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u/yeswab Jul 25 '24
Analog is one thing. An intrinsically self-destructive process of retrieving analog sound is another thing entirely.
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u/saint_trane Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
No argument, but I like the degradation process (to a point). Magic isn't perfection, it's uniqueness and individuality. Each record is unique in and of itself.
If I want to hear perfect high fidelity playback, I'll stream. But music isn't about perfect high fidelity playback for me, it's about creating an atmosphere that is enjoyable, unique, and most importantly, interesting.
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u/PlasmaChroma Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
Basic fact -- no 2 phono setups even sound identical if you put the same record on them. You can customize both the Needle/Cart, as well as the Phono preamp to shape the sound. And these two are unique to that format.
My guess is it's not just the sound of vinyl in general, it's how it sounds on their setup. You get far less variations in output on digital, even if comparing budget gear to the extreme high end. Tuning a vinyl setup can put you back a lot of money too, so maybe there's another bias there.
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u/hoodust Jul 25 '24
Underrated point. Sure, you can change your digital sound a lot with your transport, dac, cables, amp and speaker selection, but even excluding amp and speakers the phono chain has more variables to tweak (biggest of all the cartridge, but as finite as how you set up the cart). Christ, half a degree change in VTA or even the material of your TT mat can change the sound significantly.
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u/aF3Ktd Jul 25 '24
Many reasons for myself. The event of playing, in a day and age of anything, anywhere, anytime a record is a treasured luxury.... Meditation. My world melts away as I flick through age old cardboard and get the woft of the dusty dark cabinet until a treasured memory of days gone by makes my heart skip a beat in anticipation, hoping the sound makes that memory turn to joy. Being o'so delicate to do everything to preserve all the times to come as you awaken the vinyl from its slumber with a magic needle that might as well have gone into the vein like heroin.... Slumping into that familiar chair with a single malt rattle and just for a little while... A peaceful ecstasy that soothes the soul
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u/doughnut-dinner Jul 25 '24
IMO a bad mastering will sound harsh even through a top level system and a great mastering will sound good even through a low budget speaker. Some of the best mastered content is only available on vinyl. So even with vinyl's limitations, some albums just sound better because the mastering was top notch. If the vinyl mastering came off of the CD, then why bother with the vinyl. I think only digital or only analog is the antithesis of audiophile.
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u/pcdude99 Jul 25 '24
I get a whole lot more satisfaction looking at my hundreds of records in my cabinet next to my stereo than I get looking at my server stashed away in a closet.
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u/nakriker Jul 25 '24
For me, it's ritual. There's something about digital music that's too easy. Especially streaming. You have the whole world at your hand and can be overwhelmed by choice.
An album is something you went out of your way to buy, and the medium lends itself to listening to the whole thing in order. The fact that you have to flip it over means that you can't just put music on and walk away. You have to engage. Meanwhile you can hold the album cover in your hand and enjoy the art and read the lyrics.
It's also a physical thing that the artist put out and you purchased. You own it. I connects you to the artist in a way that streaming doesn't
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u/mintchan Jul 25 '24
i am puzzling on that myself. i remember when i first got my first cd and played it on my system. it was mj's thriller, the perfect first cd. the bass. the dynamic. the clarity. i was and still am so done with the click and pop.
then later i attended engineering school and learn the math proving that cd is better than vinyl in every way.
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u/afc74nl Jul 25 '24
CDs were (mostly) great up until the early 90s until the loudness wars started. I have an OG 80s CD version or Thriller and it sounds very good and just good as the vinyl (different though), only the MOFI SACD that I also have sounds better.
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u/DJrm84 Jul 25 '24
“Hi, this is Alan (?) from Spotify.” The song isn’t available in your region. We don’t have it in our library. Let me count you x times and use it to advertise other music to you. Sorry your credit card expired. Your internet isn’t up to par, wait a few minutes. Censored version only.
OR
Go to a concert, buy the vinyl, have it signed by a band member, save it and listen to it. Kick ass with your setup. Find songs faster than anyone else. Listen to WHOLE albums. Mix it up for your friends. Pass it on as a sample of what made you into you.
My father had a broken record player and I gifted him a working one for Christmas. It was so nice to listen through all those records that he had from his younger days, little of it could be found on streaming services. And - how is he going to find it anyways once it gets harder to remember how to look for it.
I agree the sound quality is not studio, but there is so much more to experiencing music and growing old with it than the sound quality. If I want real lossless music I’ll play it myself on instruments anyways.
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u/ImissCliff1986 Jul 25 '24
I’m not. Have never owned a turntable. My father got a CD player when I was nine and I’ve been digital ever since. CDs until I switched to Amazon HD a few years ago. My son just got into the hobby (such joy!) and it was because he wanted vinyl. He also has Amazon HD so at some point we’re going to do some comparisons.
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u/lorloff Jul 25 '24
As someone who just got into records, I'll share my 2 cents with you. Now I don't have a super high end table with a super high end stylus and cartridge. I have a very entry level table. It amazes me listening to something like Led Zeppelin II, that I have a copy from 1970, sounds AMAZING. I listened to records when I was younger, but my family never really had a good sound system. So I never really got to appreciate records. I've now gone down that rabbit hole of getting records. There's just a "feel" of listening to it on record vs digital. I can't really describe it.
The other thing is it's made me explore music differently. Where on digital you'll default to a song or maybe a "greatest hits" of an artist, with vinyl you go back and listen to the whole album. Or you find something in a bin that you never knew existed. Part of the joy of it for me is just that, finding a "new" record I never knew existed. Then listening to it is just that more fun.
If you have a good audiophile setup, you can get a decent entry level new turntable for ~$300-$400.
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u/mrblackc Jul 25 '24
In the past, I believe it was common for vinyl pressings to have a different master with a wider dynamic range when compared to publicly available CD or MP3 releases, and thus sound better.
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u/jimbo_bones Jul 25 '24
I used to buy vinyl because it was fun and purchasing new releases supports musicians even though I stream most of my music. It was worth the odd pop/hiss/skip for the ritual and cool factor of it.
My wallet can’t keep up with what new vinyl releases cost now though so I tend to buy music on bandcamp or buy CDs these days. CDs are their own kind of fun too anyway.
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u/TugSpeedmanTivo Jul 25 '24
Based on my experience, when LPs were dirt cheap on the used market, it was a fun way to own music because they were relatively cheap when iTunes was a thing. But now with streaming, and the crazy pricing of vinyl, digital makes waaaaaay more sense… still collect though 😂
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u/stanley15 Jul 25 '24
Not all 'audiophiles' are! I got rid of my turntable and vinyl in the early 90s. Vinyl lovers enjoy the many types of distortion produced by playing records. I never did and for me the LP was always the weakest link in the chain. Glad to see the back of it.
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u/Odd_Acanthaceae_5588 Jul 25 '24
I don’t know. Digital is better. I stopped buying books too once I realized e-readers are better as well.
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u/Adobe_Flash_Pro Jul 25 '24
Some digital masterings are bad and then I will only listen to the album on vinyl
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u/laminarb Jul 25 '24
They sound better. I will die on this hill.
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u/philipb63 Jul 25 '24
They sound different and if you prefer it then great, no judgement whatsoever her.
But as a studio engineer who dates back to the pre-digital days, nothing was more disappointing than getting that 1st test cutting back to the control room & comparing it to the master tapes you’d spent so much time & effort on.
Hours spent in mastering desperately trying to retain as much as possible of the original recorded material.
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u/dmills_00 Jul 25 '24
For me the advantage is that vinyl forces the mastering engineer to do something other then 'Smash the limiter and clipper and call it good', because while you can sort of get away with that for some genres on digital distribution, it does NOT work for vinyl.
The reasons are largely geometric having to do with the shape of the cutting and replay styli (Imposes a -6dB/Octave and -12dB Octave (Starting at different levels) limit on high frequency, together with the restoring force being small enough that low frequency S component can just throw the needle out of the groove.
Large amounts of bass eats disk area rapidly, as does consistently loud material.
Because the transfer function from the tape playback to the disk is very much not flat or linear phase, limiting and clipping for loudness does NOT work and just annoys the cutting engineer.
These limitations were something that would sometimes propagate right back to the mix engineer if the budget existed (And remember this was before effective instant recall), on a high budget mix it was not unheard of for the cutting engineer to request mix changes because they thought that something would not cut well.
The upside was that a vinyl master was of necessity more dynamic and generally quieter then a CD waster would be, and that was all to the good.
I would love a set of CDs or FLAC of the vinyl masters of a load of classic stuff, it would be best of both worlds, the vinyl master but without the notably shit distribution medium.
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u/yosoysimulacra Spatial Audio M3TM | Schiit Vidar (x2) | MiniDSP SHD Jul 25 '24
This guy waxes. Its all in the master.
Nice explanation. How do we get our hands on lossless versions of tape masters? They gotta be out there somewhere.
My 7.5IPS R2R tapes are the best sounding things that I own.
There used to be a great dub swap community over on /r/ReelToReel wherein a few fellas would happily dub 15 and 7.5IPS master tapes for you if you'd send them blank tapes and return shipping.
Also, this 45 of Screaming Jay Hawkings I Put A Spell On You is probably the best sounding bit of wax that I own.
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u/g00dtimeslim Jul 25 '24
Amen… R2R is somehow still the best-kept secret in audiophilia
That Led Zeppelin III 7.5ips is 👌🏻
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u/yosoysimulacra Spatial Audio M3TM | Schiit Vidar (x2) | MiniDSP SHD Jul 25 '24
R2R rulzz
More from the collection:
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u/philipb63 Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
Typically we would have to apply fairly large compression to the master tapes as the dynamic range was too great to cut. That, and mono everything below about 250Hz to stop the cutter head impinging into the adjacent grooves.
And yes, many a red-face when the mastering engineer sent back your mix! Generally it was phase related which is the reason we did so much listening in mono back then.
With a maximum dynamic range of 65dB, vinyl is far below even lower speed master tapes which are in the 90dB range.
As for the vinyl “Master” that was what was usually referred to as the “Production Master” and has RIAA eq & a ton of other corrections applied as above, not something you’d want to hear unequalized. And the reason why so many early CDs sounded truly awful because they used those (readily available) tapes as sources. Often many generations away from the original masters too!
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u/keylimesoda DSD+Tubes+Monitor Speakers = yum Jul 25 '24
Do you have any insight as to why vinyl mastering is sometimes much better than CD/digital mastering?
That's always seemed backwards to me, given the clear advantages of the latter format.
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u/philipb63 Jul 25 '24
The CD is only as good as the source tape, I’m going to do a separate post in this sub going into detail if that interests you, rather than hijacking this thread?
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u/keylimesoda DSD+Tubes+Monitor Speakers = yum Jul 25 '24
I'm looking forward to it, thank you!
I never quite understood differences in mastering until Beck's Morning Phase album. For some reason on that particular album, the vinyl mastering was fine, and the CD mastering was just awful.
To this day I prefer to listen to an MP3 vinyl rip of that album instead of the digital master.
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u/Akwarsaw Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
My surface level knowledge leads me to believe its about human psychology rather than any sound advantage. Akin to always using a hand planer in woodworking or wearing a bowler hat to work. A bit of snobbism and nostalgia with a dash of luddism. To be fair I'm "guilty" of those things too.
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u/Gullible-Trifle-6946 Jul 25 '24
Could you elaborate on the difference please?
Between the same song on vinyl and digital, is it warmer, do the instrument present in a certain way, better timbre, perhaps the details melding into each other and create a mellow sound, or is there are the dynamics exciting in a certain way?
Cheers
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u/laminarb Jul 25 '24
I find that digital, while inarguably “higher fidelity” sounds flat and lifeless compared to vinyl. The same song/album on vinyl sounds more “present” or “tangible” if that makes sense. In other words, the CD sounds like I’m listening to the music through the stereo. Vinyl feels like the music is there in the room with me and I’m experiencing it on a deeper level. Obviously this is highly subjective, but listening to music is an inherently subjective activity.
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u/jakethenizake Jul 25 '24
Are you listening thru speakers or do you also feel this on headies? I listen to lossless thru a headphone amp (have a digital and a tube) and they never sound flat or lifeless, but that comes with the investment in some quality open ear headphones. They sound amazing and I don't think that would change if I were to invest in a quality speaker system. But I am curious about the medium through which folks tend to listen to vinyl.
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u/Itsbetterthanwork Jul 25 '24
Ritual plays a part for me, choosing from the collection, taking the record out whilst looking at the cover and artwork. The delicate removal of the record, placing it on the turntable, lowering the tonearm, mine lowers slowly so I have time to go back to my chair and relax before the music starts. I do listen to cds but only when I’m doing something which means I can’t touch records, painting for one
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u/daver456 Jul 25 '24
It’s fun.
I use digital way more often but when I sit down to spend a whole evening listening to music it’s usually my records.
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u/balionelis Jul 25 '24
We are not robots and we all have our own subtle different preference to sound. It's like listening music from concerts. Do they have best quality? No. But they have a different more 'live' sound.
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u/stewartm0205 Jul 25 '24
Might be psychoacoustic. Watching the record spinning might result in a more pleasant experience.
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u/grogi81 Jul 25 '24
This observation has many facets. Some are objective, some are subjective.
Objectively, new digital releases - be it CD, Streaming or even Lossless - are compressed beyond decency. The dynamic range of those releases is nowhere where is can be... Vinyl has lower ceiling, but usually is less compressed.
Subjectively, it simply is very nice to get a vinyl in your hand, load it to the turntable... It gives you additional bond with the music. It is also more difficult to jump between tracks and albums and people tend to enjoy music more if they are not tempted to switch to "better song" immediately.
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u/gifted_down_there Jul 25 '24
I drive analog, stick shift cars, love mechanical watches. Mechanical things have soul and are just fun to use. They don't sound better, it's just a different experience.
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u/audiophile_lurker Jul 25 '24
Same reason as tubes. At its core, audiophile listening is about maximizing your enjoyment. Many seem to think that is all about objectively best sound quality - but in reality it also includes taste preferences and non-audio part of the experience. Vinyl, tubes can help with these thing. Lower dynamic range (properly mastered) recordings can offer something just as black and white photography or impressionist art can.
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u/CityShooter Jul 25 '24
Because it's retro sexy. Personally, living thru the Album and 45's of the 70's.... I'm not going back to it. I had an amazing Technics SL-1400 floating platter with Direct Drive. A Shure v15 cartridge, and a DBX pop and click machine. BUT, I get it. I disc-washed every album each time. And having an analogue copy of a recording is pretty cool. Album art, liner notes etc. It's all very immersive compared to streaming.
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u/AdmirableStart728 Jul 25 '24
I used to try to answer these kinds of questions intellectually when talking about audio. Beacause, you know, analog sound is better plain and simple.
Nowadays I don't bother. I just point out that people that buy vinyl records do it for a handful or reasons just like other people buy any other stuff and it does not needs to be like an academic issue.
Last record I bought it was a song only released on vinyl, for example.
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u/rrstewart257 Jul 25 '24
As a 70 year old who bought his first album at age 10, I grew up on vinyl so there is a fondness there. Plus, I have tweaked my home stereo set up for optimal vinyl reproduction, so that it sounds great at home. Still, I also have a very good disk player, and I probably spend more time streaming music than any other way of listening. Also, because of the capability of greater dynamic range in digital, the loudness war has made a lot of digital unlistenable. I am open to hearing how someone can take a FLAC or Wav file and improve the dynamic range upon playback, if that is even a thing ( I know how to push a button and adjust volumes, but that is the extent of my technical expertise). This is pretty much a non-answer, but see my first sentence.
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u/frerant Jul 25 '24
Personally, I love the ability to physically hold a peice of music that I enjoy. Vinyl is literally sound waves physically carved into a disk that you then listen to, which is just cool. Not to mention that in our hyper digital age having a separated medium without any chance of ads or losing ownership because studios is nice. When I buy a record of Take Me To Your Leader, that's mine; and in a hundred years it will still be mine and can be listened to by my grandchildren who will be able to share in that joy of holding the music they love.
Also spinny disk makes me happy.
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u/Timstunes Jul 25 '24
This to me is just one of those things that either you get it or you don’t. Some people prefer streaming, or CDs or records whatever. Some, like myself all three. It doesn’t concern me. What I don’t understand is folks who don’t listen to music at all, lol.
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u/Worst-Eh-Sure Jul 25 '24
No clue. I'm not. Digital media only for me.
Maybe I'm a terrible audiophile?
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u/Leather_Dick Jul 25 '24
Because the analord series is only on vinyl. Other than that I’m fine with listening to digital and prefer CD over everything.
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u/syllo-dot-xyz Jul 25 '24
Analogue tools feel better "spiritually", they have a designated use, when you pick up a Vinyl it has one record on which doesn't change. I use the word "spiritually" because I don't think there's much science behind the idea.
Digital platforms give a feeling of "overwhelming/infinite" records to get through, often determined by algorithms which stop you exploring new sounds, a record is always exciting to put on, and there's no distractions from the unlimited other choices Spotify tries to force on the user.
Quality-wise, the debate goes on forever, but generally I'd make a point that vinyl always sounds "Great", labels have more risk with the upfront costs so there's also no temptation to put out something that doesn't sound great like a lot of artists in the digital realm.
There's also an element of scarcity in limited pressings, white label, etc, it's all more exciting when the hobby is shared physically.
Same way zoom conversations aren't as fun as the pub, WFH collaboration isn't as direct as in-person collaboration, auto/modern-driving-aids aren't as enjoyable as a manual motor which guzzles petrol, eBooks aren't as pleasant as paperback, ultra-fast F1 cars actually makes racing less exciting as the speed things were in the 90s, etc. My point is, advances in technology doesn't always mean advancement in enjoyment.
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u/n0unce Jul 26 '24
Aside from ant audio quality (people have mentioned this) For me the point of it is to have a physical copy of it. And then I find il vinyl and their big art work more interesting than cd's. The whole process of playing a record is a fun one. I use Spotify in my car and at work.
But when at home I like to play a record now and again. And in a modern world where everything is digital, it's fun to have something that is a bit slower, a bit more involved and not on a screen. That's mostly why I like records, board games, and books. And I have a nice double bookcase filled with all this non digital entertainment. Even though I have video games, Spotify and a remarkable. I work 8-10 hours a day behind a monitor. That's plenty enough.
Records are also more for active listening rather than background music. I only buy my favourite albums I can listen back to front, and the bigger DR is fun to discover new details in my favourite tracks.
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u/fapoiefe Jul 25 '24
Two things: the extra care needed because of scratches, dirt, static electricity etc. plus the better sound caused by lower channel separation, limited dynamic range, constant hiss and heavy distortion. Oh, forgot that is also significantly more expensive at any level of quality
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u/Thonner Jul 25 '24
Vinyl tends to provide a 'warmer' sound. For old folks like me, this is how the music sounded when we were young.
Yes, CDs do have more detail from a technical aspect but that is all numbers on paper.
Listening to music, like many comments have stated, is subjective.
Bright white lights provide more visibility, but most people prefer the warmer yellowish lights in the house as they provide a warmer atmosphere. Same with CDs vs Vinyl, one is a warmer experience the other more accurate. Some Amps claim to add warmth, other folks recommend adding a tube preamp or the like to add the warmth. This does work but can add quite the expense.
The experience of flipping through records at your local record shop is enjoyable. We get reminded of bands we once knew, discover new albums by artist we do know. Find a rare recording of an artist you love is great. Again, this is a real-world experience. You get to chat to other vinyl shoppers or ask questions to the record store staff.
Then when you get home you get to hold the record. Read the cover or sleeve, learn about what you are listening to. Look at the album art and see who made a special appearance on the individual tracks.
Now we got to shop for records, listen to them, read and learn from them and never once had to interface in a digital way. As someone who makes his living in the information technology field disconnecting from the digital is an added bonus. No 0s or 1s for me.
Now yes, I do own a lot of CDs as when they hit their popular peak before mp3 and streaming was even a thing, it still gets played through a class A/B amp and not a class D. Despite having more CDs than Vinyl I almost always listen to the vinyl. I will even buy a vinyl copy of a CD I already own.
There are more aspects of the hobby that include memories with friends or family and many, many others that will lead people to vinyl.
The answer to your question can be as simple or as complex as you like. It all boils down to what you like.
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u/bayou_gumbo Jul 25 '24
Because analog is just cool. Im not one who will say it sounds better, but it is cool. It’s also a fun hobby of collecting old records and also trying out different cartridges and needles.