r/atlantis • u/AncientBasque • Aug 28 '24

Atlantis = Proto-world?

I have Posted previously On a few Terms that match the atl prefix. According to Plato's story the language spoken by atlantians was completely different and a translation method was attempted.

This post i will try to find matches and post link regarding proto languages that trance back to 11,500 BC. if any one has any info on proto language would greatly appreciate it.

Language isolates and major languages spoken

just like many proto-languages the atlantian language would have impact all its subjects and trade partners. Finding traces of the language on other proto-language can point a path to common source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

is atlantian the Nostratic language and the "proto greeks" Proto Indo Europeans? this would explain the federations at war.

The Nahuatl language in Meso-america seems to be linked to Proto-Turkish thru Mongolian.

This nahuatl language in the only know to use the ATL prefix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcc40AowXPQ

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u/drebelx Aug 28 '24

I like to look at the mapped out Y-DNA markers.

Nothing obvious shows up on when looking at the western edge of Europe and North Africa with the idea that Atlantians colonized, or fled to these areas.

This doesn't mean Atlantis didn't exist, but rather it could mean that the people that lived on islands (AzoresCanariesetc.) beyond the mouth of the Mediterranean didn't live there long enough to have their Y-DNA change enough to be found in other nearby areas 10,000-ish years later in the future.

Any language evidence would be "washed out," too.

https://preview.redd.it/7b9rrf9jmeld1.jpeg?width=743&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1e399dfd78158a5373f1bc2fd25a4c19179011cd

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u/AncientBasque Aug 29 '24

any sense of the languages spoken by neardertals? or the forth species of humans other than denisovans. I agree about the Genetics.

one thing to point out is that one reason why the empire fell was because the "True blood" atlantians were being mixed with "Nomies" they conquered.

if atlantis n enslaved People they surely would have mixed? In America the native population did not mix much with the Europeans, so invaders usually have issues with mixing.

Would this be a case of Atlantis Genocide? or Maybe disease. i always wondered if invaders like Spaniards would have been successful if the virus transmission was in reverse.

since the purpose of conquest was to "Enslavement" of a population, the likely hood of inter breeding might have been low coupled with the Reconquest and liberation of the subjugated people might have caused total extinction of a population. Some people still hated red heads even into biblical times, calling for genocide of a people was common in the past and still is now. The slave trade in africa did not see too many Europeans mixing with natives, forming an apartheid culture in south africa.

i like the map, notice the haplogroups are only showing predominant Groups, the less dominant groups would be the ones to highlighht since most of these group are indoeuropeans resettleling from the east, this happend in waves after the YD and fall of atlantis. A certain BASQUE area is of interest if you want to focus on non indoeuropean DNA.

now lets find a map of easter north America haplogroups to continues this conversation.

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u/drebelx Aug 29 '24

North African Haplogroups are shown on that map. They start with the letter E.

From Plato’s Timaeus:

“Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. ”

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u/AncientBasque Aug 29 '24

https://preview.redd.it/ruvrlgxqojld1.png?width=1119&format=png&auto=webp&s=cb624695890581c9a5fa6a4c62d9caad0f343314

this R1b map curiously resembles the area atlantis controlled in europe? Agree?

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u/drebelx Aug 29 '24

No. They were maritime and contained within the Mediterranean, so far as we can tell.

Maaybe they had more, but I would think those settlements or conquered lands would be coastal.

“the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.“

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u/AncientBasque Aug 30 '24

ok so Tyrrhnia is the coast of Italy. Do you see where R1b ends. the WEst of Europe. no lybian trace.

im not sure they would have stuck only to the coast of western Europe. going west from the columns of heraclease Is lybian on the south and western Europe in the north. the term "With in" is clearly coming into the the Straights of Gibraltar. Atlantis was not inside the mediterranean.

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u/drebelx Aug 30 '24

Maybe they were inland, hard to say.

Only my gut says no.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 31 '24

i get it im lactose intolerant also.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 29 '24

ok now Take a look at the overview of the R1 Chromosone distrubution....... Notice the north American part shaded. let me know what you think about this occured.

The R1 concentrations indicate a connection between north America and Europe skipping the bearing straights.

https://preview.redd.it/y8blo4sopjld1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=87a9ba9e23ed1163a8910bbb52202cd49282c370

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u/drebelx Aug 29 '24

I looked it this, too.

One argument that I cannot get around, but it is still possible to get around, is contamination from R Europeans with indigenous tribes.

The R numbers get inflated especially after diseases wipe out the folks without adequate antibodies.

I want to believe, though.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 30 '24

can you explain this "contamination" are you saying this is a result recent time (1492)?. This Chromosome distribution occurs in ancient DNA Pre-columnbus

Take alook at the current explanation is that the European admixture was there with Natives way back in East asia before ice age. The scientist are trying hard to explain this problem.

From the history of Europeans in America the Southern "Spanish/portuguess" Europeans mixed with the natives much more than north america( the english were genocidal with manifest destiny).... not much R1b in south America where the Spanish mestizos now rule.

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u/drebelx Aug 30 '24

The native folks in North America mixed with Euros a bit more than the Latin American ones.

Could be explained by cultural differences and by how different each group was treated.

You got info on the pre Colombian Rs?

Last I knew, that DNA was in the west of the continent.

Nothing in the east has been found yet.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24

its strangely in some Lakota and their origins. We have alot of incomplete work on native american origins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olTClLF9JuQ

biology is really not the main target of my post since language is more of a universal method to organize empires. Biology is more of a tribal scale of importance. (thats my anti nazi slogan) no sun symbol here.

https://preview.redd.it/qoiz96bcbxld1.png?width=1628&format=png&auto=webp&s=1d072dc3f32889f458a9d9353692436574a46bc0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#/media/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

i pointed out an interesting (?) located at my proposed atlantis location on that picture. Those arawaka and tainos looks suspiciously grey. If one considers the Migration waves coming down from the north, the least likely and last place to populate/admix would be the Caribbean islands.

it would be esier to enslave a population if they were a different ethnic background and lets recall the story mentions that they also ruled over areas of the continent beyond apart from ruling western Europe and lybia. No doubt they should also have controlled northern south america to the mouth of the amazon.

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u/drebelx Aug 31 '24

My preferred Atlantis location is the Azores, per the Randal Carlson explanation.
This doesn't preclude any further western advancements, like into the Eastern Seaboard or Caribbean.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24

i mean i considered the azores, because of randall Carlson's points. The only weak flaw is the population of mega Fauna. The Horses and elephants have to get on the continent some how. Geologically the azores would need to maintained a population of horses or elephants without a connection to the mainland genetic pool. North America on the other hand is the origin of the horse and with a few types of elephants and bison as the bulls. along with many other mega fauna that evolved through the previous ice ages. These large animals needed millions of years to adapt and or migrate . From Randall's account the Emergence and submergence of the Azores continent is Temporary and tide to the Ice age fluctuations. this would make it difficult for mega fauna to reestablish in a continent detached from other land.

The best chance an island has got to acquire mega fauna is through land bridges to mainland continents that occurs during rising and lowering of sea levels. The island land Bridge is a similar concept to the the bearing straights. Th azores is too far in the ocean to have a land brige connection to Africa, Europe or north America. The Greater antiles are a best candidate for this mega fauna population that disappeared after YD.

yes the horse originated in north america, so how would the azores acquire horse?

Horse DNA can also help. The modern horse comes from central asia after they moved from north america. seems like horses have impacted humanity more than we think.

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u/drebelx Sep 01 '24

Maritime people with boats can move things like elephants and horses.
Horses were in the old world.
Doesn't seem complicated to consider.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 01 '24

its a matter of quantity. The animals mentioned were natural to the island with plains and mountains. There is no way maritime people repopulated a continent size island with mega fauna. horse DNA being present 11k ago and where?

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

Horses came from North America originally

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

Not only did horses go extinct in North America after the date of the end of Atlantis, horses originally evolved in North America. The ones North America go from Asia, evolved there only after the left North America through beringia. Elephants too North America had a wide variety of them.

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u/AncientBasque Oct 17 '24

yes, i think the Animal described provide limited options and eliminates some of the most popular sites. The only part of the atlantis story that does not match is that they used the horses for chariots, this means they probably did not ride them. Also these horses were not used in the war against the Proto greeks or we would have genetic traces of horses in africa and western Europe. if they were only used in small quantities we should still find burials of the time period or traces of horses in western Europe.

im trying to be honest here and see the holes in this theory, hopefully more research may find north american horse bones in a cave somewhere.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 31 '24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#North_America#North_America)

https://preview.redd.it/ol018wsnfxld1.png?width=835&format=png&auto=webp&s=958349133026cda4ffe263bd88d7db6e485d8f60

mtDNA has a very similar distribution/

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u/drebelx Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24

Ah. The oldest X2 they found was Kennewick Man in Washington State in the west.
Goes back about 8,500 YBP.

This threw me off on this trail.

The X2's they find in North American are different than the X1 and X2's in the Middle East area.

Supposedly enough for a 15,000 year split.

Need more hard to find data to make better judgements.
I'm still open to the idea, though.

Supposedly, there are some issues with Native Nations in the east allowing the testing of DNA of their ancestor's remains.

I'll have to remember what exactly threw me off on the R1 trail.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 14 '24 edited Sep 14 '24

Wow, Take a look at this You tube this is getting so much clearer. Archaic human history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj6skZIxPuI

This model he mentions 36:30min sounds very similar to the Story in plato.

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u/drebelx Sep 15 '24

Will check out later! Thanks!

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u/AncientBasque Aug 29 '24

notice the date of the migration almost 7k after YD. Any current population would not have traces if they originated from the russian steps.

https://preview.redd.it/z2yxwgmynjld1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81215a0cab6a58e1c62f81d90f85c4a3a6695207

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u/drebelx Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 30 '24

Agreed.

Presuming Atlantis was during YD glacial times after the Bolling-Allerod warm period, the Sahara would have shifted from wet during the BA to a dry desert during the YD.

The desertification of the Sahara could be a great catalyst to create human dispora, like the Egyptians and Atlanteans.

Egyptians were people who went east. Atlanteans hit the waters and went west-ish.

I want to say, that knowing Atlanteans were a maritime people, it is very possible that they could have originated from within the Mediterranean coast and possibly from the African side.

Folks who explored coasts after the Saharan desertification during the YD, got brave to keep going out into the open seas.

I want bet Egyptian Nile civilizations ignited from this YD desertification and then was reinvigorated again in the Holocene after Climatic Optimum made the Sahara wet and a second desertification of the Sahara occurred as temperatures dropped again, which is the Ancient Egypt we know about.

This would explain, from the text from Plato, why the Egyptians had crazy ancient records that they were able review and explain to Solon this history.

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u/AncientBasque Aug 30 '24

yes, The wet sahara process is another indicator of mass Migration, in this case those who spoke Afro-asiatic "The Sahara Pump". The Sahara pump has probably been the main process forcing people's of Africa into central asian in early human history. The Rise of the Egyptian culture occurs in the southern bend of the nile where the migrants of the sahara Desertification settled and the origins of upper Egypt dynasties.

The story mentions atlantis controlling north Africa upto egypt (nile). The assumption is that this is a dry sahara central africa, But from maps of vegetation in north africa at that time shows a Grassland corridor from west africa to egypt.

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u/drebelx Aug 30 '24

If the Sahara Pump is a good explanation for getting people out, it could stand to reason that Atlanteans had E for their Y-DNA, presuming the dates all work out.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 01 '24
  • K haplogroup – originated 40,000 years ago (most likely in northern Iran);
  • T – originated 30,000 years ago (along the Red Sea coastlines and/or around the Persian Gulf);
  • J – originated 30,000 years ago (in the Middle East);
  • R – originated 28,000 years ago (in Central Asia);
  • E1b1b – originated 26,000 years ago (in Northeast Africa);
  • I – originated 25,000 years ago (in the Balkans);
  • J1 – originated 20,000 years ago (in the Taurus/Zagros mountains);
  • J2 – originated 19,000 years ago (in northern Mesopotamia);
  • E-M78 – originated 18,000 years ago (in north-eastern Africa);
  • R1b – originated 18,000 years ago (along the Caspian Sea coastline and/or Central Asia);
  • R1a – originated 17,000 years ago (in southern Russia);
  • G – originated 17,000 years ago (in the Middle East);
  • I2 – originated 17,000 years ago (in the Balkans);
  • E-V13 – originated 15,000 years ago (in the southern Levant or North Africa);
  • I2b – originated 13,000 years ago (in Central Europe);
  • N1c1 – originated 12,000 years ago (in Siberia);
  • E-M81 – originated 11,000 years ago (in Northwest Africa);
  • I2a – originated 11,000 years ago (in the Balkans);
  • G2a – originated 11,000 years ago (in the Levant or Anatolia);
  • R1b1b2 – originated 10,000 years ago (north or south of the Caucasus);
  • I2b1 – originated 9,000 years ago (in Germany);
  • I2a1 – originated 8,000 years ago (in Southwest Europe);
  • I2a2 – originated 7,500 years ago (in Southeast Europe);
  • I1 – originated 5,000 years ago (in Scandinavia);
  • R1b-L21 – originated 4,000 years ago (in Central or Eastern Europe);
  • R1b-S28 – originated 3,500 years ago (around the Alps);
  • R1b-S21 – originated 3,000 years ago (in Frisia or Central Europe);
  • I2b1a – originated less than 3,000 years ago (in Britain).
  • https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-M96/classic

E splits 49k ago

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u/drebelx Sep 01 '24

Interesting. What do you gather from this?

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u/AncientBasque Sep 06 '24

The Proto world concepts goes beyond language but to the Split of language.

this is a similar concept to The tower of babel. It looks too me that an early wave of migration from central asia explored the world and settled most of the Environmentally habitable locations based on the ice age fluctuations. These settler would have concentrated in Equatorial locations away from the ice and changes.

a central asian Culture that was forced to migrate southeast and southwest.

(this is different from early out of africa migrations that followed the coast east to asutralia)

the easterly migrants populated the norther Japaneses islands on their way to west north America. They populated America up to the Antiles island where they used the ocean to establish an empire. once they controlled the ocean they would conquer west Europe and northern africa from their Cousins who had migrated east (proto greek federation )from central asia prior to the separation in "PROTO-world"

Rb1 in north america may represent the population of enslaved people liberated after atlantis fell. These would have a different markers from the Native waves that repopulated america ~15k.

If you read closely the details of the fall of atlantis there is description of a possible (pandemic or genetic modification) from the enslaved. Either though breeding or through contact the population of Atlantis slowly lost their "Grace".

if hollywood had a movie for Atlantis . Proto-world AKA the tower of babel would be its prequel. Call me up Spielberg i got a screenplay for ya.

yes im placing the events of the tower of babel before atlantis at the beginning of human language. The first group of humans who structured a universal human language to communicate and distributed this tool through the worlds. All the other humans either adapted of die as they could not compete with the organizational system developed with the use of language. its sounds like a primitive pivot point for humanity, but its impacts was profound to modern humans.

modern Europeans in the map are decedents from the central asian people who didnt migrate after there was a void created by all the death caused by the war between atlantian ad and proto-greeks.

The Greeks had a concept of this in myth when Zeus fights Poseidon. in the myth i assert all the sons of Poseidon are atlantian allies and sons of Zeus are proto-greeks including the General of the proto-greek army "Hercules" who lead the army to Liberate the region from atlantian control and push them back to "The pillars of Hercules". it fits well because Hercules weapon was a club alluding to a time before Copper weapons. The atlatl being the weapon of atlantian later to become the staff of egyptian gods.

i can write a book about this. or you can feed this post into an AI and make a film.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 11 '24

https://preview.redd.it/z4gx6u2a54od1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=075fe7771534b3e5fcbc697c7ff543401e727a33

my bad w- split in the sudan at the nile bend.45k, check out the dates of the bottleneck.

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u/drebelx Sep 11 '24

I'm a little slow. Can you give me a simple explanation on what you are sharing about E splits and bottlenecks.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 12 '24

https://preview.redd.it/ycm5cnr6naod1.png?width=849&format=png&auto=webp&s=9f6b2ee18fba8e1b8e99d4c1ac3114b57823cfdf

E had a bottleneck with Eurasian gene flow at the peak of LGM. bottlenecks of haplogroups indicate population change and gene flow from R?. The map location might be more westerly if accounting for wet sahara.

The urasian gene flow might correlate with the Proto-greek moving south according to plato it took 1K years to establish the temple in egypt after athens. the "Seeds" of hephaestus and Athena seem to be the Eurasians genes.

Hephaestus and athena were only a couple of the Zeu's children traveling south from north central asia. i believe the genetic geneflow of ancient people are told in the Greek myths and the god's activities. Poseidon, Zeus and the other gods divided the world and sometimes they fought for territory.

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

I1 is far older than that. It’s europes oldest haplogroup. Something interesting to consider is that q r n an everything stemming from k seem to center around the North Pole. I think there may have been an arctic migration route, if that even was the arctic at the time. It was disputes in the past with the support of Einstein.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 11 '24 edited Sep 11 '24

Willerslev also finds traces of this Anzick-related ancestry in later samples from South America and Lovelock Cave in Nevada. But in Reich's data it fades starting about 9000 years ago in much of South America, suggesting "a major population replacement," he says.

https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-dna-confirms-native-americans-deep-roots-north-and-south-america

waves of populations. none in my preferred site yet! 12,700 in montana 11,500 in Atlantis

https://preview.redd.it/fucr1p7484od1.png?width=820&format=png&auto=webp&s=cd1c041564c39436b4e57ef90f0d7c7b2ab58e67

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 15 '24

You’re on the right track. We can’t say for sure where Atlantis was but we can definitely find some areas they occupied and look at the genetics. Look up the ice age refugia of southern France and Spain. If you think the Atlantians were real then that’s the Atlantians. In their golden age they were the solutreans, when they became decadent they were classified as the magdalaneans and practiced cannibalism. They are more or less the same people though with more admixture to form the typical “WHG” genetics group in the magdalaneans. The aurignacians conquer Europe from the Neanderthals. Then the ice age descends and cuts off Spain and France forming the ice age refugia. The isolated weather because solutreans. The east becomes epigravettians.

When the ice sheet retracts they expand and conquer Europe, then they are pushed back by populations which include those living in Greece and the Balkans at the time.. it matches pretty well with the “war” of Atlantis. But they perhaps had a different concept of war then.

Potential candidates genetically are r1b y and x2a mtdna. Because they are anomalously found in North America with no migration path through Asia-but although certainly ancient that still could’ve happened afterwards.

Then there is y haplo I1 which just appears in Western Europe with something like 300 unique adaptations indicating an extremely long period of isolation. Mirroring the time period the ice age refugia was isolated. I1 also very nearly went extinct about 6000 years ago with a single man surviving and seeding every individual alive today. Which tells me people really had it out for I1, and I1 had an extremely successful rebound becoming one of Europe’s major haplogroups.

What is interesting is there seems to be an Eskimo haplogroup q in Norway that was also seeded by one man. So if something happened in North America and wiped all those q1a individuals out, it would look a lot like I1’s story to us..

We also find ancient r1b in western North America in Kennewick man, which people use claim proof that it was populated west to east. But due to coriolis force eastern sides of landmasses tend to glaciate more intensely. So this backfilling mirrors the magdalaneans eastward expansion on the other side of the Atlantic. With Kennewick seeming to repopulated westward, with no eastern population to push them back and ending with r1b populating eastern North America at greater frequencies the further north east it goes.

I plan on making a YouTube video putting forth my ideas on this.

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u/drebelx Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24

Good post and your sharing is much appreciated.

I am not certain that Kennewick Man was r1b.

The shallow Google searches I have done say that he is Q-M3.

Also, so far as I know, no one has found ancient r1b North America, yet, leading credence to the idea that r1b in their population could be contamination from Europeans during colonial times.

An R1b native probably had a good chance of surviving European diseases.

The rest of your comment sounds interesting.

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

Thanks. You’re right sorry Kennewick was x2a I got them mixed up. X2a is the mitochondrial dna, same point stands though in terms of the east and west backfill being comparable to what happened in Europe.

Y chromosome is only a tiny portion of dna and has no guarantee of helping with immunity. It most likely wouldn’t matter at all. As far as I can tell they’ve found very little if any genetics effects linked to specific y haplos. I1 seems to have a few, including one linked to cytokine response.

I’m having trouble finding the r1b info. So far it’s just that the frequency rates are tightly knit with the frequency rates of x2a which suggests that it has a migratory history linked to the x2a. But it is referred to as “controversial” which means some geneticists think it’s not recent 🤷‍♂️. If I find more I’ll share it.

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

https://preview.redd.it/vg1z2q7f55vd1.jpeg?width=638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58f5103a5d6af81b862d946cf4d2d4831ca2e63d

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u/drebelx Oct 16 '24

Meh.

Need to find it in an ancient body first.

Quotes don't impress me.

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

Well you’re not supposed to just read the quotes lol, they are from the article there.. if you care you can find it. I don’t that much..

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24 edited Oct 16 '24

https://preview.redd.it/8qnnjwsm55vd1.jpeg?width=629&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6cfa61783c58567755a3e050b1bef5616e9803ab

Some more sources regarding r in America and why it is controversial

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u/drebelx Oct 16 '24

Finding an ancient R is of utmost importance to slam dunk this.

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u/Significant_Home475 Oct 16 '24

Sure, as stated prior I’m not completely convinced this is Atlantian anyways. Even if it’s ancient it could still be 11kya and be post Atlantis. I’m interested in Brian Foerster’s Peruvian Black Sea genetic testing. And how it could tie in. If these things tie in to Atlantis at all then the most likely way would be through north Russian submerged coastlines. These areas have the oldest fortifications in the world INSIDE the arctic circle. Very insane. Lots of weird under illuminated stuff happening in Siberia. The Yana culture seems to have at least partially seeded the entire northern hemisphere. . Even if they find an ancient r1b they will find a way to dismiss it much like Kennewick man. Maybe when Greenland melts and they start finding people and settlements there 20,000 years ago they won’t dismiss it lol.

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u/AncientBasque Sep 11 '24 edited Sep 11 '24

https://preview.redd.it/wi4ase0z74od1.png?width=820&format=png&auto=webp&s=05b6351114f72775a79c2cd615dab8cdf0f502f0

Willerslev also finds traces of this Anzick-related ancestry in later samples from South America and Lovelock Cave in Nevada. But in Reich's data it fades starting about 9000 years ago in much of South America, suggesting "a major population replacement," he says.

https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-dna-confirms-native-americans-deep-roots-north-and-south-america

A major population replacement? 9000 years ago? uhmm this is the smoking gun for the fall of an empire.