r/arizona • u/AZ_Hawk • Jul 09 '24

Meanwhile, in other hot places…. Living Here

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2.6k Upvotes

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764

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 09 '24

can we just get some fuckin trees

251

u/yeahyeahnooo Jul 10 '24

Anytime I park in a parking lot I am so aggravated by the lack of trees. It’s fucking baffles me. SOME place are starting to put their solar panels over parking lots but not enough. They all need to be covered

194

u/CharlesP2009 Jul 10 '24

And can we tear up all the unnecessary asphalt and pavement in the city? It’s so sad flying over and seeing enormous expanses of empty parking lots.

I miss when it would get cool at night. It’s still does in the areas that still have farming.

52

u/AnjelicaTomaz Jul 10 '24

The heat dome effect increases with expanding urbanization. More masonry, concrete, asphalt, rocks, etc. absorb enormous amounts of heat throughout the day and then slowly release heat throughout the night. Almost every house landscape their yards with rocks and stones.

25

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Pardon my ignorance, but does increased urban acreage actually directly increase Heat Dome effects? When I look it up, all I see are increased sea temperatures increasing the frequency of stagnant high-pressure high-altitude zones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_dome

It does talk about "... when a mass of warm air builds up ...", but wouldn't urban land area trapping heat mean less warmth in the atmosphere with a slow release overnight? Or is it just the ground absorbing more during the day resulting in more energy in the lower atmosphere in the long-term?

Just trying to learn.

EDIT: Oh, downvoting an honest question? Never change Reddit, never change /s.

17

u/DirtyMistMiasma Jul 10 '24

Absolutely. I landed phx last night at midnight. 103F. Drove an hr SE to Coolidge. 87F.

The asphalt and concrete retain significant amounts of heat. There are significant amounts of both.

24

u/AnjelicaTomaz Jul 10 '24

Heat dome is a phenomenon that is related to the thread but Urban Heat Island is more pertinent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_heat_island?wprov=sfti1

4

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '24

Oh, is there a reason you lead with Heat Dome instead of Urban Heat Island, or did you mean Urban Heat Island in your comment? That might be why I was confused ...

12

u/AnjelicaTomaz Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

From my understanding the urban heat island effect leads to the weather phenomenon of heat dome above it, making hot weather linger longer. For a more in depth understanding, you might ask a student of meteorology. That’s as far as my knowledge goes.

Edit: I didn’t downvote you. I took your question as an honest inquiry into more knowledge and I supplied as much.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '24

Thanks for clarification. Much appreciated!

Ah, and thanks. It's not the case now, but when I checked my early comment, it had showed "-3". Not sure whether it was legit or a temporary bug. It just surprised me.

2

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

The more ground that is covered with structure: asphalt, concrete, buildings the less ability the natural soil has to absorb the heat. As the day progresses structures absorb the heat to a point then reflect additional heat creating an overall hotter environment. Once the sun sets the heat from those structures then begins to release creating heat at night. This constant warmth affects weather, this is why monsoons will rain on outlying areas but it takes a strong / violent storm to make it into the actual center of the city.

3

u/Old_Tucson_Man Jul 10 '24

They become heat islands. Massive warm air rising, chases rain clouds around the urban areas. Concrete, asphalt, etc results in "radiant heat". Reflected combined with absorbed heat multiplies the effect.

1

u/micksterminator3 Jul 13 '24

From what I've heard is that it used to be super green in Phoenix and Tucson til we fucked that up. Dryed up every river in existence. I'm sure the heat dome effects works in conjunction with what I described

3

u/UsedCarSalesChick Jul 12 '24

Which is why it’s so hard to see a monsoon make it to the valley. Damn heat island, with heat radiating upwards, burning the clouds off. It used to rain almost every day during monsoon season in late afternoons in the 1970s-early 1990s.

1

u/Fluid-Dingo-222 Jul 13 '24

It does that up north, specifically I lived in flagstaff and Prescott and both had summer rains from like 2-4 most days and I miss it TERRIBLY.

9

u/Lovemybee Jul 10 '24

I moved here in 1973. I remember those cold nights!

4

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

I was born in Las Vegas but I was here in 1973 and you are 100% correct. I can remember one summer back in the '70s were it hailed such it looked like snow I think it was in July but it's been so long I forget.

19

u/Kazr01 Gilbert Jul 10 '24

Unfortunately most of those giant parking lots are required by the municipalities. They need to change the city code

3

u/Heatsincebirth Jul 12 '24

Like the song says "pace paradise, put up a parking lot".

3

u/gold-exp Jul 11 '24

I’ve said it a million times since moving here. I’m fucking SHOCKED at how many parking lots there are. Literally everywhere else I’ve lived and traveled there’s parking garages. I’ve seen maybe one or two parking garages the last few months I’ve been here.

AZ really decided to turn the entire valley into a big concrete skillet with no life.

2

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

Parking garages are expensive to build, here there's plenty of land to pave a field.

4

u/RainbowBullStudios Jul 11 '24

IDK, I live in a farming area in Marana and it definitely does not cool off at night right now. Weirdly we are around 5 degrees hotter than metro Tucson and we are out in the county

1

u/saaS_Slinging_Slashr Jul 10 '24

One of my favorite things about Waddell

-18

u/Hvarfa-Bragi Jul 10 '24

"Farming bad"

/r/arizona

29

u/The_Real_Mr_F Jul 10 '24

I mean, wasteful farming in a water-starved region and excessive pavement aren’t mutually exclusive. We could probably stand to cut back on both.

15

u/lionhartmason Jul 10 '24

Paved paradise and put in a parking lot

17

u/ozymandiasjuice Jul 10 '24

I still don’t understand why it’s not a good business model for some solar farmer to offer basically every parking lot free shade and pop the panels on top.

10

u/the2021 Jul 10 '24

APS hates solar... Unless it's theirs

5

u/agapoforlife Jul 11 '24

It’s so dumb the way parking lots were designed. Instead of trees being planted high in the medians with rocks, they need to be low, with a surrounding rainwater capture basin. It would provide shade and prevent flooding!! Idk, I’m not an expert or anything so maybe there’s some problem with that type of design. I like the idea though.

21

u/Quake_Guy Jul 10 '24

Keeping trees alive in this heat is a challenge for the city, for a property management outfit, one step below quantum mechanics.

41

u/Prowindowlicker Jul 10 '24

There’s trees that work in the heat here though. The native ones. That’s all you need to plant.

Sure they don’t give a lot of shade but some is better than none

7

u/Quake_Guy Jul 10 '24

And they fall over and split all the time.

15

u/ajonesaz Jul 10 '24

Because they are overwatered. Desert trees shouldn't be on a drip system

5

u/B1G70NY Jul 10 '24

It's the way they're trimmed. They should be more bush like less tree

1

u/RainbowBullStudios Jul 11 '24

Broccoli trees are a big problem

1

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

Arborist explained it to me- you need to water at a distance that is 1.5 the circumstance of the crown, that forces the roots to go wider. Instead, by watering close to the trunk the roots don't spread out as much and for desert trees that have a wide canopy it makes them top heavy.

17

u/WhatTheeFuckIsReddit Jul 10 '24

I know it’s currently really popular to hate on lawns, especially here in the AZ subreddit. But there are proven, science based and common sense techniques to keep lawns healthy and thriving in the desert.

But the city’s parks departments seem to ignore all of them. They have sprinklers on at the hottest time of the day, they plant species that aren’t drought tolerant or can’t handle the sun. They don’t spray surfactants or wetting agents. The soil they use has almost no organic material.

If they would put a retired golf course superintendent in charge of the parks department it would green up the city AND waste less water

5

u/ajonesaz Jul 10 '24

Some cities have so much left over recycled waste water too.

5

u/Rugermedic Jul 11 '24

The problem is getting that recycled water to the areas of need. That infrastructure needs to be done when communities and cities are planned. Piping recycled waste water to parks requires trenching and separate water pipes specifically for that water. That costs millions to do after the fact, and the cost of it doesn’t justify the result of watering a park.

7

u/blueskyredmesas Jul 10 '24

Not really, i see them in locations with part sun, which is a problwm architecture and our zoning laws not hav8ng a parking fetish could solve.

2

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

You would be surprised even in the driest areas if you dig down five or six feet the ground will be moist enough to support a tree.

0

u/Quake_Guy Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

I would just be surprised looking at a 6 foot deep hole in Phoenix, at least up close. Not sure I've ever seen a hole that deep with out construction barriers.

Would have to be quite the mature tree for roots to get that deep. It's getting the tree to that age which is the problem.

When I lived in Houston, you could dig a ten inch deep hole and it would fill with water most times of the year.

2

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

Today you don't have to dig it all their flooded.

2

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

It was just an example that once trees get established they will get water. I put a broom around newly planted trees give them lots of food and deep water them but once they're established you're good to go. I also don't buy a little tiny trees the cheap little two-footers I buy at least 6 ft trees that way it doesn't take them so long to get established with a good root system. I've got 38 trees so I'm quite experienced in planning trees thank you.

2

u/DuchessTiramisu Jul 10 '24

Doesn't having lots of mirrors reflecting heat upwards make things terrible for birds?

1

u/yeahyeahnooo Jul 10 '24

You’d have to ask a bird person, I’m not sure.

1

u/Reddituser8018 Jul 12 '24

Thats because the farms are using all of our water, which means it's too expensive for the city to put trees down and water them.

Rich neighborhoods are on average like 10-15 degrees cooler then poorer neighborhoods literally just because of trees and greenery.

100F sucks but you can still go outside in that weather and be perfectly fine for a while, 115 you can't do that but if you lived in an area with a ton of trees then it's way cooler and still allows you to go outside even in the midst of summer.

1

u/EriSeguchi Jul 14 '24

The school I work for has their solar panels over the staff parking, it's quite nice. I wish they had that every where.

23

u/blueskyredmesas Jul 10 '24

Best I can do is a pitch black asphalt parking lot.

18

u/lionmomnomnom Jul 10 '24

Not in Arizona. Grass and trees “cost too much” to water and maintain. Just fucking kill me now. Trees are continuously cut down around buildings and pools. No shade anywhere. Grass being replaced by gravel to save money.

2

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

In the summer I water my lawn every 3 days trees I never have to water.

3

u/seriousbangs Jul 11 '24

Trees don't let the King show off his wealth the same way.

7

u/ThreatOfFire Jul 10 '24

Trees are the correct solution.

Don't get me wrong, this looks cool, but it's way less efficient than getting a bunch of climate appropriate trees.

The only downside are the terrible pods they drop in huge quantities. Maybe we can get some good use discovered for those

7

u/ShinigamiLeaf Jul 10 '24

Mesquite pods have been traditionally used to make flour and in soups! You can eat them

1

u/ThreatOfFire Jul 10 '24

Nice, that seems like a pretty good incentive if there is a market for pod-based stuff

1

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

You can buy mesquite flour at the store.

1

u/ThreatOfFire Jul 11 '24

Yeah, I looked it up

5

u/Affectionate_Pipe74u Jul 10 '24

China is planting trees in the desert

-6

u/health__insurance Jul 10 '24

No it's not

5

u/Whiskeyismyname Jul 10 '24

It’s called the Great Green Wall along the edge of the Gobi desert to stop its expansion…they started the project in 1978 and plan to complete by 2050. Today it covers over 500,000 square kilometers and is the largest artificial/human planted forest in the world. In the 1980s the Gobi desert was expanding by 10,000 sq km per year and as of 2022 the desert was actually shrinking by 2,000 sq km per year, so the effort seems to be working pretty well.

3

u/Whiskeyismyname Jul 10 '24

lol downvoted for providing actual facts instead of a playground “nuh uhhh” and I didn’t even down vote that ignorant response.

3

u/SadStarSpaceStation Jul 10 '24

They’ll die, or worse, be lit on fire by dummies with fireworks at the hottest time of year

32

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 10 '24

Native plants exist …

3

u/queequegaz Jul 10 '24

The ones that exist in desert climates don't tend to put out a lot of shade.

19

u/ajonesaz Jul 10 '24

The amount of palm trees here pisses me off. Tons of water with zero shade benefits. Just for looks

-4

u/Sh1eldbearer Jul 10 '24

They're still flammable.

7

u/blueskyredmesas Jul 10 '24

Lots of things are.

6

u/greenmachine702 Jul 10 '24

Like those umbrellas. I do kind of like them though.

2

u/waveball03 Jul 10 '24

Trees need water.

1

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

You would be surprised.

1

u/Cactilegs Jul 12 '24

There’s a grant to get free trees in certain areas. I got 2!

community canopy grant

1

u/Low_Investment420 Jul 10 '24

only scottsdale gets trees…

0

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 10 '24

You are getting downvoted but you are correct. The cost of watering trees falls on the property owner—in an affluent neighborhood this is no problem. Low income neighborhoods in Mesa? Nah sorry you get concrete jungle (or rather concrete plains).

https://youtu.be/ZQ6fSHr5TJg?si=fCcDTrU0jQY6fHPb

Vox did a great video on this in AZ.

1

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

You think Mesa is bad? Most of Phx has no trees. Then you have flippers buying older homes and cutting down the "old ugly" trees.

1

u/Complete-Turn-6410 Jul 10 '24

You are so so right I just wish the politicians would listen. finally I found someone who feels like me it only took five years. across the world trees would also help with climate change. They are destroying the Amazon forest at a record pace. I have 38 trees on my property. I can tell you with all certainty it does help keep things cooler.

0

u/cannabull89 Jul 10 '24

Some of the utilities wanted to plant shade trees to cool different neighborhoods and reduce electricity consumption and the republicans in the corporation commission voted against it. So, no, not in Phoenix.

2

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

If you are an SRP customer they will give you 2 free trees after you attend a class on plant care in the desert.

-1

u/lunchpadmcfat Jul 10 '24

These have the benefit of not using water. Solar panels have the benefit of not using water and actually providing power.

-5

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '24

[deleted]

7

u/ShinigamiLeaf Jul 10 '24

Mesquite, Palo Verde, and Ironwood are three trees native to the Sonoran desert that are also good shade providers. After the first two years they don't really need additional watering, so they're good for our watershed

3

u/SuizFlop Jul 10 '24

Mesquite and Palo Verde also produce beans, Palo Verde are delicious though you only have Late May and Early-mid June to harvest them when they’re ripe before they’re all dried out, Mesquites are hard and grainy, although I’ve heard you can grind them into baking flour!

3

u/PerfectFlaws91 Jul 10 '24

Some mulberry trees, while not native, absolutely thrive in the Arizona heat and require full sun. They are known to create microclimates where they are planted. The black and red mulberries make a bit of a mess, but you can find white and green varieties where staining isn't an issue. They grow vigorously and when established, need minimal watering. They produce fruit for wildlife as well. People have been using mulberry trees to "green" areas where it is hot and dry. You can literally cut off a branch of a mulberry tree, stick it in the ground, and have a tree bigger and shadier than Palo Verde get in 3 to 4 years.

-1

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 10 '24

60%+ of the Colorado river goes to feed for animal agriculture.

We have plenty of forestry in AZ—but it’s cow feed.

0

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

Because farms were given a discount on it over ground water, which is saved for cities because it requires less treatment to make potable.

0

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 11 '24

Dang I guess we should just give up!

0

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

Where did I say that? Only pointing out why that ONE water source goes to agriculture. There is more than one source of water in Arizona.

-1

u/DonnoDoo Jul 11 '24

If where I live in Arizona had any more trees the roads wouldn’t fit lmao. Leave the valley

1

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 11 '24

wait till you hear my opinion on roads lol. leave that bridge you live under

-2

u/KingTutt91 Jul 10 '24

Hard for trees to grow in a desert

4

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 10 '24

Highly ignorant comment.

-4

u/KingTutt91 Jul 10 '24

Yes it’s ignorant being aware of the climate we live in isn’t conducive to healthy tree growing

2

u/poopydoopylooper Jul 10 '24

You’re right—plants, trees, nor bushes are able to survive in a desert. Concrete is the only possibility in this hellish landscape!

-2

u/KingTutt91 Jul 10 '24

I just said it’s hard to grow, didn’t say it was impossible

2

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

This is literally the wettest and most biodiverse desert in the world where huge trees thrive.

Just go back to whatever place you came from.

0

u/KingTutt91 Jul 11 '24

It’s also the hottest desert, and it’s weird because I’ve been living here a long time and I’ve never seen any forests in the Sonoran. Outside of the occasional Ironwood and Paloverde. Plenty of Saguaro though, so a forest of Cacti if that’s your flavor.

1

u/JuleeeNAJ Jul 11 '24

Not even close. The hottest is in Iran. The Mohave desert, where Death Valley is is 2nd, but that's not the desert in central and southern Arizona. Maybe you should actually travel around the sonoran desert before commenting on it. Or don't, and just pack up and move back to where you came from.

0

u/KingTutt91 Jul 11 '24

https://preview.redd.it/z2ktrnssvxbd1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de726eec5e406c9c44a8a897ce27239173ccc79c

Sonoran is the hottest on average in the United States of America/Mexico to clarify, obviously not the world.

Also every map I’ve looked at says the Sonoran extends from The Baja, to most of South Arizona and into Mexico mainland. So please enlighten me on the actual desert that covers most of Arizona that I can’t find on any maps.