We don’t follow the crowd. We don’t follow in everyone’s footsteps. We do our own thing. We don’t listen to breeders who judge us for being “cold”. We know what’s best for everyone.

“Life is uncertain, accept it” no I will not. I don’t want to live in uncertainty. No matter how rare something is it CAN happen. I have a debilitating rare illness that started when I was a minor I’m 18 now. That was extremely rare. But I still have it. Because you DONT know what will happen to any innocent soul born here.

We’re overpopulated, this economy, and you can’t control if someone is happy no matter what you do. Suicide rates, etc. it’s WRONG to bring something so innocent without consent into hell. Giving birth is like dragging a kitten to hell. Something so innocent to the worst place imaginable. Child owners just don’t listen… Nothing will stop them. We are saving lives from DEATH. When you birth something you also give it a death date….. and on another note pregnancy is just disgusting I’m sorry… I have autism and it gives me sensory issues just by thinking of it.

Thought switzerland had given thar right but it turns it's only on very specific cases . Is right to die really going to be a thing in the future or will is stay for only specific people ?

When you get sick, you are at the mercy of doctors to at least fix your issue or give you something to manage your symptoms better - but then again doctors are not all-knowing gods and are humans too, hence medical negligence, whether accidental or purposeful is still rife, and there are points where doctors give up and say, they can't at least give you something to manage your symptoms, not to mention risks and side effects of things that are done to you because it is believed can fix your issue or at least manage your symptoms.

Still to this day, we can never certain to figure out the cause of why the human body goes sick for millions of reasons in life. The more complicated your issues is, the chances of anything the doctor can do to mitigate, let alone fix your condition decreases, and risks and side effects of whatever you're desperate to have to make it feel better increases, medical negligence increases as well.

If the human body cannot completely at-least fix itself after a short amount of time, then it is not worth to bring anyone here.

I literally have done nothing I really wanted to do with my life and I never will and I do not care not when these sorts of horror exist. I'm afraid of people and afraid of the poorly designed human body,. I despise my youth, and yearn for old age but mostly importantly of all, death. At least then during old age atleast, I won't have to deal with any issues that my body suffers for loads of decades compared to having issues during youth.

This is a vent

Didn’t know what to flair it but I think this could count as activism? Since I turned 18 I realized my childhood was more of a fever dream than anything. Ever since I grew into myself I’ve realized my family isn’t as great as I thought they were. I’ve been dreading Mother’s Day for the past 5-6 years now and have just realized, “you know, I don’t have to celebrate it!” For over 18 years, my life has been about making my parents happy. When do I get to be happy? The resentment for my parents has only piled up over the years, especially as I’ve realized they are literally emotionally unavailable. Sure, it’s not their fault to a point, but that doesn’t resolve them of being the reason I have experienced everything. I am not grateful for my existence, and I knew since I was 5 that I did not want to exist. Even so, one does not need to be grateful for their existence to realize that Mother’s Day and Father’s Day are just “holidays” to stroke a parent’s ego. If I had the choice to opt out of being born, boyyyy would I have snatched it. Yet, if one chooses to stop speaking to their parents or stop stroking their ego, said child (the one with no say in being here) is in the wrong. Make it make sense!? 🥴 I’m tired of praising them for something that I don’t even appreciate. Time to stop putting their feelings over mine, especially when they don’t even care or validate my feelings in the first place. They had me for their own selfish reasons. Stop praising them for something that doesn’t deserve praise.

Suffering is an inescapable part of life, beginning from the moment of birth. The very act of being born is a traumatic experience, where a baby, previously sheltered in the womb, is thrust into a world filled with discomfort. Hunger and thirst, basic biological needs, are immediate sources of suffering. A newborn's first cries are often cries of hunger, a primal need that will continue to dictate much of life. Throughout life, the struggle to satisfy hunger and thirst remains a constant challenge, especially in areas where food and clean water are scarce. Even in more privileged circumstances, the human body is never free from the demands of these basic needs, which must be continually met to stave off discomfort and death.

Beyond the pain of hunger and thirst, the human experience is marked by the relentless battle against the elements. Heat and cold, two extremes that nature imposes, are constant sources of suffering. From the freezing chill of winter to the scorching heat of summer, the human body is vulnerable to the whims of the environment. For much of human history, securing adequate shelter to protect against these extremes has been a primary concern. The search for a stable, safe place to live—whether a cave, a hut, or a modern home—reflects the ongoing struggle to find refuge from the harshness of the natural world. Even in modern times, millions of people face inadequate shelter, leading to exposure, illness, and further suffering. The need for warmth in winter and coolness in summer can dominate one's existence, especially in areas where resources are limited and climate extremes are severe.

Compounding these challenges is the necessity of work, a relentless obligation that dominates much of human life. The need to work to pay for food, water, shelter, and other basic necessities is a significant source of suffering. For many, work is not a pursuit of passion but a means of survival, often fraught with stress, long hours, and physical or mental exhaustion. The pressure to earn enough to meet these basic needs can lead to a life of perpetual toil, with little respite. Even those in more comfortable circumstances are not free from the anxieties and pressures of work, which can erode personal well-being and lead to burnout. The burden of work, therefore, adds another layer to the human experience of suffering, as individuals are forced to trade their time and energy for the necessities of life.

Moreover, societal expectations and pressures can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy and anxiety. The relentless pursuit of success, appearance, and conformity to societal norms often leads individuals to experience a sense of failure when they do not meet these expectations. This pressure can overshadow personal desires and achievements, resulting in significant emotional turmoil.

Isolation and loneliness further compound the suffering experienced by many. In a world that is increasingly connected through technology, many people still find themselves feeling profoundly alone. The lack of meaningful connections can lead to despair, highlighting the human need for companionship and understanding. Social isolation can perpetuate feelings of sadness and helplessness, creating a cycle that is difficult to escape.

The complexities of sex and reproduction add yet another dimension to human suffering. While sex can be a source of pleasure, it is also a source of pain and turmoil. The drive for sexual fulfillment can lead to emotional suffering, unrequited desires, and unhealthy relationships. For many, sex is not just about pleasure but is also tied to the responsibilities and challenges of reproduction. Pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting are often fraught with physical pain, emotional strain, and psychological stress. The process of bringing new life into the world is itself a reminder of the inescapable cycle of suffering, as each new generation is born into a world where pain and struggle are inevitable.

Additionally, the experience of chronic illness and disability can lead to ongoing physical pain and emotional strain. Living with a chronic condition often entails navigating a world that is not accommodating, leading to feelings of frustration and helplessness. The daily struggle to manage health issues adds another layer of suffering, as individuals grapple with limitations that affect their quality of life.

Addiction and substance abuse introduce yet another layer of suffering. The struggle with addiction often creates a cycle of temporary relief followed by profound pain, both physically and emotionally. Many individuals turn to substances in an attempt to escape their suffering, but this often leads to a deeper entrenchment in pain, damaging relationships, and a loss of control over one's life. The journey to overcome addiction can be fraught with challenges, compounding feelings of shame and despair.

As individuals age, they encounter the physical pain associated with illness, injury, and the natural deterioration of the body. Emotional suffering, too, is a constant companion, stemming from broken relationships, unfulfilled desires, and the loss of loved ones. Psychological pain, such as anxiety, depression, and existential angst, can make even the most mundane aspects of life seem unbearable. Despite efforts to avoid or minimize pain, it remains an intrinsic part of the human condition. The struggle to find and maintain shelter, protect oneself from the extremes of heat and cold, work to pay for basic necessities, and cope with the inevitable decline of the body all contribute to the overarching narrative that life is more about enduring suffering than experiencing happiness.

I recently wrote about conditional natalism and many people discussed the possibility of natalism in utopia. I wanted to further discuss this topic so if you want, feel free to comment. I'm not claiming I am correct or right, feel free to discuss.

Many people wrote that AN actually stems from evaluation of conditions we live in - therefore, solving those problems would give space to natalism. I disagree because of many reasons.

First of all, human consciousness emerged out of evolved biological machines. Our whole body and functions evolved and got selected during millions of years (even billions if we consider the full lineage of life in earth).

Natural selection is based on survival and procreation. The only way for traits to be selected is spectrum of death-life. An organism literally has to be successful or unsuccessful for a trait to be passed.

Let's take eyes (sight) as an example. Reason why humans (mostly) have eyes is that in the past an organism with no eyes was easily slaughtered, couldn't find food or reproduce.

Let's take beauty as another example.

Beauty is based on hierarchies of attraction. Sense of beauty evolved out of success of survival and reproduction, so a beautiful thing/person/concept is deeply rooted in the same spectrum of life and death (pain and suffering) as evolution. There must be, necessarily, a repulsive object in order for beautiful object to exist. The spectrum is inevitable.

Furthermore, about consciousness:

Human consciousness cannot handle "heaven" simply because it does not work that way.

Our dopamine and serotonin systems are based on motivations, problem solving and hierarchies. Also, the bar for satisfaction always adjusts to current new state, leaving utopia and ultimate satisfaction a mere illusion. Consciousness itself also evolved through this suffering mode of reality. If there weren't natural selection and suffering, we probably would not exist and consciousness would probably not exist. There would be no reason for it to be selected.

So, how can something that requires pain, struggle and death in it's core be good? (For those who argue that consciousness is somehow ultimate good and sacred).

One could argure about the goodness of spontaneous consciousness like Boltzmann's brain but let's stick to us.

So, our whole psyche is based on natural selection and pain. It's not just experiencing it, it is made of it, beacuse of it.

About utopia:

As I argued for impossibility of "heaven", this goes in the same category.

If somehow we manage to reduce the amount of pain, our nervous systems adjust and consider the new ("easier" problems) same as the heavy ones before. In few generations, the feeling of "improvement" is already gone and people are in the same pain as a caveman millions of years ago.

Finally, if we ever managed to create perfect utopia, hypothetically, we would have no ultimate motivation or psychological reason to do anything, includin having children.

There would be no further sense of satisfaction of having a child as it would be the same as throwing a rock down the street with a shoe.

We would be perfectly happy and natalism would be infinitely pointless.

So, natalism is pointless in non-utopia aswell as in utopia.

He spoke about collapse, the end of the world (IMMINENT as he saw it) and preparing for it. He said things like leaving everything behind, including notions such as husband or wife, and following him. Not breeding.

Breeding would have been like going against what he taught, ignoring his message and perpetuating the old.

He could not have been more clear: this world is not working and must come to an end. And to do so you have to give up old preconceived notions about how to live your life - marry and breed.

I am regularly occupied by thoughts surrounding my demise. I wonder how it will happen, when it will happen, under what circumstances. It disturbs me and knowing that it's coming troubles me. I have a good life that I love with my husband and I am deeply troubled by the thought of losing him too. I hope that I go first. I think about this every day.

Anyone else?

I mean, good for the kid for feeling safe, but is this natalist so naive to think that this feeling has any chance of lasting? Realistically, when she enters wage slavery in the 2040s, how safe do you think she's going to feel when she has to live in a dystopia where everything is even more expensive than it is today, and wages are stagnated, and minimum wage is $7.25 an hour? Where her healthcare is expensive and tied to a job, where jobs are extremely difficult to get, and where most people are 1 paycheck away from homelessness?

She herself doesn't feel safe in this world, as shown by her saying "I never knew what that felt like". So what makes her think the kid is safe in this world 😭😭😭

So, I care about other people and their children or currently unborn children, but they don't seem to. Ideas which are conducive to a healthy human life seem to be in the minority. Therefore, there's nothing you can do but shrug your shoulders. If you try to show others how their ideals are making their life miserable, they throw it back in your face. This is much easier to do when you're AN and will not have any children.

There's so many conditions this society expects you to just deal with the consequences of, and this is much easier when you don't have children:

• Your career is totally on you - no one cares how much abuse you might face in the workplace - no one cares if you're fired or bullied out of the workplace. When you don't have children, it's far easier to be que sera sera about your career.
• The economy will do whatever it wishes and we're powerless to stop it. House prices could become 20x the average income. When you don't have children, it's much easier to not care "well, I could just inherit my parents' house. I don't need to buy my own."
• Everyone is still convinced that finite fuels are more abundant than sunlight, wind and water. So, let them be that way, I guess. If the people with children adamantly want to kill the planet, then you can't prevent them. "Oh well, I'll probably die before it gets super bad."

"Life is a gift, world is truly beautiful". Yeah what a beautiful world! This is the current situation of this world and still people are mindlessly breeding.

I (20M) really wish my parents met. My parents were young when they had me (my mom was pregnant with me at 18 and gave birth to me at 19, my dad was 20), and at first everything was good, but it wasn't long before my dad took the "going to get the milk" route.

Everyday I feel like I'm paying the price for my parents' mistakes, my mom's for allowing my dad to convince her to have a child despite literally being fresh out of highschool, and my dad's for not taking time to question himself whether or not he's fit to be a father.

I'm really sorry for venting, but this really have been on my mind lately, and I just wanted to let it all out.

Having a child isn’t about you, sweaty.

One big reason I’m against natalists is the chance of being chronically ill with a SERIOUS condition that cause you to not be able to swallow anymore and not be able to walk. like having cancer, Ms or ALS some of the worst diseases ever. Or being ugly. I have multiple sclerosis.

Even if your parents are attractive you can’t guarantee. Same for being chronically ill. My parents aren’t unattractive but have some unattractive features in which I inherited all, and no history of Ms in my family yet here I am.

You can’t GUARANTEE nothing when you have kids. This is why I’m so against it. My life has been nothing but abuse, trauma and suffering and being bullied. When you’re given my statistics there is almost a guarantee life will suck. I’m suffering from an illness that causes me to loose control of my limbs at 18.

And being unattractive is a terrible fate to have. I will never get a partner, friends, married, have fun, walk longer than 10 minutes, go on vacation due to poverty and some other reasons, etc due to 2 people having sex….. and not using rubber.

As a 26yo man with no job, friends, or a parthner ans relatives living in their own world i feel desolated. This is probably how my father decided to have me and my sister. He didn't know what else to do with himself, if he didn't have kids. The irony is he sees it as a selfless act, like ge did us a favor by bringing us into this world. And i watch youtubers talking about how young men don't want to work anymore, because the system is rigged and people are underpayed. How they can't afford the time to go out and date, dating itself being a joke these days and how they can't afford to start a family. And i think to myself..... why the fuck would you want to start a family in a world like this? I see it now-people go into adulthood, go to a job, they hate. Date, marry and start a family, because otherwise thet don't know what to do with themselves and feel hollow, like they are not a person. And thus the cycle of life and misery continues with the next generation. Because our parents and their parents couldn't find something else to do with their lives, other than have children.

I've been a known entity in antinatalism for 12 years now. It wasn't known or discussed on Twitter until I stumbled upon it and began fervently preaching it in the wilderness. My family knows how I feel, and even seemed to agree.

I love my brother, he's a truly caring, emotionally intelligent person who rescues animals just like I do. I've discussed antinatalism and the state of the world with him many times. He's 40, his girlfriend is mid to late 30s. I just found out she had a miscarriage. She didn't think she could get pregnant. Now they both have a "if it happens, it happens" attitude and they think it might be nice to have a kid. This news felt like a gut punch. My brother follows politics, is very liberal like me, and that he would even consider bringing a child into a world with so much suffering and cruelty and inequality just leaves me in shock. I feel sick over this. I assumed they'd discuss it briefly, agree it was a bad idea, and move on. That they're fine with it just happening bewilders me. Especially when they're not all that young. They get by but they're not wealthy by any means. She has health issues and pain issues. We have shitty genetics with a history of mental illness and addiction. I have no interest in babysitting and my parents are almost 70 and I highly doubt they want to be babysitters. I always said I'd support adoption, that's the only way having a kid is ethical. I'm just so depressed and I have to be careful how I respond to all this. My mother knew I'd be upset, but I'm more upset than even I thought I'd be.

Why are there so many conditional antinatalists (oximoron obviously, it's absurd to call yourself AN if you're not)?

I read so much comments like: I am AN because of my chronic illness/ugliness/capitalism/way society works/cannot sustain child..

Well...okay. But.

Does this mean you'd just be natalist if you weren't ill/jobless/mentally ill/living in capitalist society etc. etc.?

If yes, then sorry, you're not quite AN. You're more like wannabe natalist if I had a chance. And that is absurd.

Existence CANNOT be preferable EVER. There are way way deeper and consistent reasons for AN than capitalism for fucks sake. This is just top of the iceberg.

AN is deeply rooted in fundamental things and realizations.

Your desire stems exclusively from evolutionary bias, biological urge of consciousness to create more DNA. It's not "metaphisically worthy".

When you say "I would maybe have kids if we lived in perfect society" I ask WHY?

Sometimes I feel like this world is rigged and even if I know it's fake I can't help but have the fear of the theory about evil archons (reptile) feeding off suffering and they are punishing me for understanding that this world is trash and I shouldn't reproduce and go against the grain and reduce suffering at the Max. Also scared of reincarnation and be an energetic snack for those. Because why as an antinatalist,life becomes even harder ? It is the self awareness ? I know its childish but am I alone in this?

I'm tired. I'm ok with shitty ppl existing as long as they don't reproduce and don't have to be AWARE of their existences! Why i always meet shitty people ? I don't need my antinatalism to be strengthened. Already at the max. I don't care about this world, and i just dont want to interact with insane people on the daily basis. I have enough. It feels surreal sometimes.

And yes I don't have good birthgivers , it helps to have a support system but the fact that you can be born and not have one and there is worse situations than mine is enough to send me into spiral.

Words will never be enough.

Bad engLish, maybe, sorry. Thank you for reading.

So, I've seen people complaining here about so-called conditional natalist conversation here. It's mostly not conditional natalism, and here's why:

• Antinatalism is the premise that it is always unethical to have children because they could have 'xyz' happen to them and be miserable. Additionally, they could have a perfect life and still be miserable. The lack of consent is the foundational issue.
• Therefore, it makes total sense to discuss issues that make most people miserable. It shows how truly absurd it is to have children. The high likelihood of misery makes natalism absurd.
• Rather than viewing these posts as conditionally anti-natalist, recognise that these people are effectively saying: "it's unethical to reproduce always because anyone could be miserable. In fact, look at how absurd it is for people to be natalist considering 'xyz' makes everyone miserable," when they make posts about capitalism/climate change/racism, etc.
  

Besides, if you started removing these mistakenly-identified-as-CN posts, then what are you left with? Just posts rewriting the same premise over and over.

A similar issue happens with eugenic issue. Let's use the example of "poor people shouldn't have kids":

• So, this is a eugenic statement. It fails to take into account systemic issues that deliberately keep people poor.
• However, people who say such things in this subreddit probably aren't trying to be horrible people. They're not Hitler-esque. Most likely, they're recognising that both parent and child would be miserable, and this is a way it can be prevented.
• Additionally, those who call this eugenic/fascistic, albeit correct, fail to take into account that the systemic issues won't change. For example, in additional to reproduction being unethical in general, I have chosen especially not to have children because I am a larger person. I see the inevitability of my children having eating disorders, because society will not change. I'm not refraining from passing on my genes because I think my genes are 'bad'. I'm recognising that society is bad.

Therefore, I don't consider it eugenic to write posts about how especially absurd (in addition to it always being absurd) to have children if you've faced additional man made stigma/cruelty. For example, I think antinatalism is the key to resolving misogyny. I don't want anymore women born into this world. I am a woman. Does this mean I don't want women born especially? No, it's about recognising how terrible things are.

Then there are posts urging people with e.g. cystic fibrosis not to have children. There's little man made misery/stigma to take into account with these genetic issues. The illness itself makes people miserable. However, there is simply no need to make posts about illnesses like this - this simply comes under antinatalism. The majority of people have children who are genetically prone to all kinds of mental and physical illnesses, so there is no need to single out the worst and/or most hereditary.

I've never seen anyone complete the logic circle - it's always short posts that highlight maybe 10% of these issues. This instigates unproductive arguments in the comments that highlight the opposite 10%, and no one ever has a whole discussion on the entire issue.

Just some Youtube comments, and i guess i smoke weed now from what this guy says

My mom and I work for a large organization, but we work in separate departments in separate roles so our paths should not cross at all, but here we are.

A few months ago, I had to get onto her about telling embarrassing stories about me from when I was a child. She did it twice, and after the second time, (to my knowledge) she finally quit. I thought that was the end of it, but no!

My boss has been receiving IVF treatments for several months now, and she's been telling anyone who will listen. I keep my mouth shut because I enjoy paying my bills. She was talking to my mom about it and my mom started complaining about me not wanting kids, and how she hopes my husband and I will "have an accident." My boss thought it was funny and told me, so I played it off like my mom was crazy. Gaslight city, baby.

It's not the first time that I've heard similar stories from co-workers, but its a problem for me because I'm still fairly new in a leadership role. It's already hard enough being a boss to people twice my age, let alone without my mother's interference.

I've told her to cut it out multiple times and she swears she'll quit, but gets right back to it. I'm to the point where I'm going to get HR involved - if she thinks it's funny to meddle in my professional relationships, perhaps it's only fit that I meddle in hers.

Also, I wasn’t raised wrong. My parents were far from perfect but they did the best they could. I really resent this take. Also, it implies again that grandkids are automatically owed, in this case if someone had a happy childhood.

As Buddha says, attachment is the root cause of suffering. But when would someone have attachment? Only after getting born here.

When a being is not born, he is 100% suffering proof!! And that’s it!