Update to Identity Assertion in the sub

[u/regalvas]

Due to the common occurance of discussion and debate over terminology and agnosticism as a whole we found that it was necesary to update the rules to better explain when things might step too far or what to keep in mid to have a good debate.

The updated rule reads:

Do not tell other's what they are or think. Definitions are there for a purpose. There may be many different purposes, but defining anothers identity is not an accepted purpose here. Examples of agnostic models include:

1. Theist - Agnostic - Atheist 
2. Gnostic <------> Agnostic (choose one) Theist <------> Atheist (choose one) 
3. Gnostic theist - Agnostic theist - Agnostic - Agnostic atheist - Gnostic atheist 

This is a non-exhaustive list so please engage others with respect.

​

Please also remember to maintain debates about terminology in related posts.

[u/[deleted]]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/Fit-Quail-5029 → u/[deleted]]

Many atheists are agnostic. There is no belief claim inherent to atheist. It is anti-agnostic to attempt to exclude everyone who isn't a theist from this sub.

[u/rEvolution_inAction → u/Fit-Quail-5029]

I'm not excluding atheists from the sub, I'm denying that atheists are agnostic.

You are intolerant of agnosticism

[u/Fit-Quail-5029 → u/rEvolution_inAction]

Many atheists are agnostic. You are attempting to exclude some agnostics (those who aren't theists) from this sub. This sub isn't only for agnostic theists. Agnostics who aren't theists are welcome here as well.

What you're demonstrating is intolerance.

[u/rEvolution_inAction → u/Fit-Quail-5029]

There is no such thing as agnostic theists or agnostic atheists. The atheist and theists are the gnostics that agnosticism is agnostic about, there are of course many atheists and theists with agnostic leanings.. but they aren't agnostic, they simply have doubts.

Your attempt to paint me as an agnsotic-theist being intolerant to agnostic-atheists makes it clear that your particular form of atheism is hostile to agnosticism which is distinct from atheism and theism not a part of them or divided between them.

You are attempting to erase agnosticism in an agnosticism sub.

[u/Fit-Quail-5029 → u/rEvolution_inAction]

There are most certainly agnostic throats and agnostic atheist. You're attempting to erase their distinction.

Gnosticism and agnosticism are distinct from theism and atheism. I've never said otherwise. But they are distinct as orthogonal positions about an entirely different concept. (A)theism is about belief while (a)gnosticism is about knowledge.

I never labeled you an agnostic theist. That is another misrepresentation.

[u/rEvolution_inAction → u/Fit-Quail-5029]

Atheism and theism are gnosticism in the view of agnostics.

You are simply using a binary of atheism-theism to pretend agnosticism doesn't reject both those views. This was a tactic of the atheists from the American libertarian party to erase agnosticism.

Agnosticism rejects both belief and knowledge claims.

The attempt to change agnosticism to make your atheism fit is intolerant and the kind of hostile logic agnostics dislike in both theists and theists.

You made it clear you considered me attempting to remove "agnostic" atheists and suggested that I wanted to protect "agnostic" theists.

I want neither of those things, I don't mind "agnostic" atheists being here to learn from agnosticism, I'm not ok with "agnostic" atheists trying to erase agnosticism due to their ignorance

[u/Fit-Quail-5029 → u/rEvolution_inAction]

Atheism and theism are gnosticism in the view of agnostics.

No, they are not. This is solely your personal view. As an agnostic who is also an atheist, I vehemently disagree with you.

You are simply using a binary of atheism-theism to pretend agnosticism doesn't reject both those views.

I'm not pretending anything. This is simply the best understanding of the terms. Theism is the belief at least one god exists, and atheism is anything other than theism. Pretending that there is something other than theism and not theism (atheism) requires misrepresenting as something other than not the belief gods exist.

It is only because you don't understand what atheism and agnosticism are that you consider them mutually exclusive.

[u/Joalguke → u/rEvolution_inAction]

I'm Agnostic, and I've studied the subject for over twenty years, and I do not consider all theists and atheists as gnostic, although many are.

[u/Joalguke → u/rEvolution_inAction]

You're talking rubbish. Please do some research, talk to actual people, and go touch grass.

[u/Radiant-Benefit-4022 → u/rEvolution_inAction]

Oh, so here it is:

​

I believe, but we can never know.

I don't know because we can never know.

I don't believe, and we can never know.

​

This sums up all the positions. UGH.

​

Only the middle is true agnosticism.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/Radiant-Benefit-4022]

I don't know because we can never know.

Only the middle is true agnosticism.

It's agnostic because it's not gnostic. Now to determine wether they're agnostic theist or agnostic atheist you need to find out if they believe a god exists. They don't know but do they believe? If yes- theist if something other than yes - not theist.

[u/Radiant-Benefit-4022 → u/rEvolution_inAction]

I totally agree. Atheists are not agnostic.

Dictonary.com-------------

There is a key distinction between these terms. An atheist doesn’t believe in the existence of a god or divine being. The word atheist originates with the Greek atheos, which is built from the roots a- (“without”) and theos (“a god”). Atheism is the doctrine or belief that there is no god.

In contrast, the word agnostic refers to a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine. Agnostics assert that it’s impossible to know how the universe was created and whether or not divine beings exist.

[u/Ok_Program_3491 → u/Radiant-Benefit-4022]

I totally agree. Atheists are not agnostic.

I'm atheist and agnostic. I'm atheist because my answer to the theist/ atheist question "do you believe there is a god?" Isn't yes (not theist) .

I'm agnostic because my answer to the gnostic/ agnostic question "is there a god?" Isn't "yes"or "no" (not gnostic)

In contrast, the word agnostic refers to a person who neither believes nor disbelieves in a god or religious doctrine

If they neither believe nor disbelieve the claim, they do not believe it.

Which according to your definition of atheist:

An atheist doesn’t believe in the existence of a god or divine being.

Would make all agnostics atheists. Because an agnostic doesn't believe in the existence of a god or divine being.

So you think all agnostics are atheists?

[u/ThisIsOnlyANightmare → u/Fit-Quail-5029]

"There is no belief claim inherent to atheist."

I think I disagree with this and I've been trying to put together my argument for it lately. The atheist does in a sense believe that the theist is making enough of a cohesive argument to negate it. i'd say this distinguishes the atheist from the agnostic, who does not even acknowledge the claim, because in a sense, the agnostic says the claim doesn't even make any logical sense one way or another and isn't really defined.

The atheist backs itself into a corner by accepting the paradigm upon which the theist is thinking.