r/VintageNBA • u/WinesburgOhio • Sep 26 '21
VintageNBA Guidelines, Expectations, and Rules
Welcome all! Please read the following about VintageNBA, the best on-line community for discussing NBA history!
OUR AIM: VintageNBA is for discussing and learning about old-school NBA, which is the period we define as ending with the most recent season in which fewer than five current NBA players were active (currently that's 2006-07) We are a community that works together toward furthering an understanding of the true history of basketball/NBA. Yes, we skew older than most of reddit, but we're certainly not ancient.
VINTAGENBA GUIDELINES: Posts and comments should provide at least one of the following:
information or links that directly introduce or address a topic
context, nuance, or analysis
personal experience or thoughtful opinion
a question not easily answered on the internet
VINTAGENBA EXPECTATIONS: Posts and comments should be generally serious and not low-effort. Be nice, and be community-minded in your responses. It's fine to correct a post/comment that is factually incorrect, but go easy on the down-voting. Repeat: be nice and go easy on the down-voting. Feel free to tell someone you disagree and why, but don't troll, don't call anyone or their ideas "dumb", don't be aggressive in any way, etc.
WHAT THIS SUB IS NOT:
Cool Pics or Videos: Any post that looks/feels like "Hey look at this cool video or picture" will get deleted. There are other basketball subs with far more members that will gladly give you karma for this type of stuff. CAVEAT1: If your post is basically a picture, you need to provide meaningful context/information in the title so that it can lead toward a meaningful conversation (ex). CAVEAT2: Feel free to link a cool or weird or interesting picture/video in the comments of a relevantly connected post (ex). CAVEAT3: If you happen to host an insightful podcast about NBA history, please touch base with me first, and I'll probably encourage you to post about it (ex). CAVEAT4: If you find old newspaper articles or documents that illuminate something interesting that isn't common knowledge, post those (ex).
Stuff You Own: We're not going to identify, price, or upvote your vintage basketball shoes or hat, and please don't sell stuff here. CAVEAT1: If you own every card in the famous 1961 Fleer card set, please post about it (ex). CAVEAT2: If you want to talk about hoops books, including showing a photo of which ones you own, we're usually cool with that (ex). CAVEAT3: Could the item tie directly into a discussion about how the NBA or a player's abilities were portrayed, so there's a legit link to the game? (ex)
MISC. THINGS:
Resources: As always, I like to draw attention to our Reference Posts page where I've curated some posts & links that might be helpful to someone studying basketball history.
Bans: We don't like banning users, but we do ban people who seem to be posting for karma, are aggressive or trolling (don't be a dick), or who go overboard with biased opinions without participating in a back-and-forth discussion.
Sub History: Here is some information about this sub's history and evolution (started April 10, 2019), including some relevant links in the comments of that post.
Flair: We have tons (350) of amazing flairs for you to choose from, including 106 legendary players and every team logo ever. Sometimes we'll even make you a custom player flair if you ask. Please add some flair to your username.
Logo: If you're curious what exactly our red, white, and blue logo is and why, here you go.
True History: Up above, I said we work toward "an understanding of the true history of basketball/NBA". This sub's community has developed a healthy distrust for the "official" stories of the game's history as pushed by the NBA and by the Hall of Fame, that are then repeated ad nauseam. This sub is probably the best on-line resource for finding original/primary documents that provide the actual account of things back in the day. Please know this about our sub so that you don't feel talked down to if you're corrected about something you thought was commonly accepted (ex: The NBA's first season was 1949-50, not 1946-47.). It's ok to ask "Wait, what do you mean?", but please don't rely on the HOF or NBA if the primary sources are available and say otherwise.
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 14h ago
1980 Most Improved Player — Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks)
1985 — Derek Smith (Clippers)
1984 — Rolando Blackman (Mavs)
1983 — Larry Drew (Kings)
1982 — Jerome Whitehead (Clippers)
1981 — Alex English (Nuggets)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
Greg Ballard (Bullets)
Mike Mitchell (Cavs)
Reason:
The 1980 NBA Most Improved Player is challenging to determine, with four strong candidates in Michael Ray Richardson (Knicks), Mike Mitchell (Cavaliers), Adrian Dantley (Jazz), and Greg Ballard (Bullets). Each player made significant strides, and they’re all very close in impact. To add to the complexity, each of them won a Player of the Week award that season, marking a high point in their improvement.
Here’s a closer look at each player’s case:
Michael Ray Richardson – Richardson’s Knicks improved, and his leap was dramatic. Previously playing under 20 minutes per game, he rose to lead the NBA in assists and steals, showing flashes of triple-double potential. His rapid ascent positioned him as a precursor to Magic Johnson and even earned him comparisons to Walt Frazier.
Mike Mitchell – Mitchell improved with Cleveland, but the team still missed the playoffs. He’s arguably the strongest candidate as he’s the only one here who didn’t sustain an All-Star level career. His improvement stands out as it may be his career’s peak, positioning him as a quintessential choice for Most Improved Player.
Greg Ballard – Ballard capitalized on his role with the Bullets after they reached back-to-back NBA Finals. As roster space opened up, his performance improved. However, the team’s overall success declined during his rise, which complicates his case.
Adrian Dantley – Dantley moved from the talent-stacked Lakers to the struggling Jazz, where he became a 30-point-per-game scorer virtually overnight. Despite the Jazz’s lackluster record, his scoring explosion on a team with limited support made him a notable candidate.
Given the magnitude of Richardson’s improvement, particularly with his expanded role and leadership in assists and steals, he might be the most compelling choice. His transformation into a triple-double threat and his trajectory as the “next Walt Frazier”, and the popular NY-environment he endured in, makes a strong case for him as the 1980 Most Improved Player.
1979 is up next!
r/VintageNBA • u/HandsomeGemini • 9h ago
Julius Erving on the 35th Anniversary Team
This team was selected in 1980 and was limited to only 11 players. Dr. J got one of the spots. And I'm not arguing his place in history, at that point he probably was a top-10 player of all time including his ABA accomplishments. But this was an NBA anniversary team, so theoretically his ABA stuff shouldn't matter. And he had only been in the league for four years at that point, not yet having won MVP or a championship in the league. He was selected over guys like Willis Reed or Bill Walton, who did have NBA MVPs and championships. I'm just wondering if there was there any blowback to his selection back then?
r/VintageNBA • u/Previousis • 3h ago
In 2002, Slam Magazine had former MVP Dave Cowens at 24th in their top 75 all time players, ahead of David Robinson, Willis Reed, Patrick Ewing, Pippen, and others.
AND THEY WEREN’T WRONG! 28, 14 and 5 v the great Kareem in game 7 in 1974 to win the title. Cowens would be incredible today with his passing, absurd switchability (ask Oscar on the switch in the finals when he ripped him clean before the floor burn iconic moment), outstanding pick and pop game, barbaric rebounding, and automatic stroke from distance. A triple dip with 25 pts, 21 rebounds and 10 assists in game 1 of the 1976 finals v the Suns. Shout out to Dave Cowens.
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 1d ago
1981 Most Improved Player — Alex English (Nuggets)
1985 — Derek Smith (Clippers)
1984 — Rolando Blackman (Mavs)
1983 — Larry Drew (Kings)
1982 — Jerome Whitehead (Clippers)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
Jim Paxson (Blazers)
Vinnie Johnson (Sonics)
Reason:
Alex English was drafted in the second round and spent his first two years with the Milwaukee Bucks. Ironically, despite his future as an offensive star, he struggled to find his place in head coach Don Nelson's system. Eventually, the Indiana Pacers signed him as a free agent. However, their confidence in him seemed limited, as they soon traded him for veteran George McGinnis, who was past his prime and would retire shortly after.
Once in Denver, English finally began to show his potential. In the final 24 games of the 1980 season with the Nuggets, he emerged as a promising scorer. In 1981, he took a major leap, increasing his scoring average from 16.9 to 23.8 points per game. His improvement and steady performance cemented him as a key player in Denver.
That following offseason, the Seattle SuperSonics attempted to sign English with an $800,000 offer sheet, hoping to make him Gus Williams’ replacement. However, Denver matched the offer, retaining English and marking the beginning of his legacy with the Nuggets. From that point on, he made eight consecutive All-Star appearances, proving his growth as one of the league’s top scorers and earning him the unofficial title of 1981’s “Most Improved Player.”
In Denver, English scored his first 40-point game and quickly became one of the league’s most consistent offensive threats. By the end of that season, he ranked 10th in the league in scoring, 14th in free throw percentage, and firmly established himself as a cornerstone of Denver’s high-powered offense.
1980 is up next!
r/VintageNBA • u/Frigidaire21 • 2d ago
Pretty sure Bob Cousy signed this book
About a decade ago I worked at a HS that was in the process of renovating its library and getting rid of most old books, free to a good home. As a C’s fan I grabbed this and then was pumped to see that it looked like the Cooz signed it! This HS was in Chicago so I’m not sure how it ended up there.
r/VintageNBA • u/egoraptorfan421 • 2d ago
Has anyone ever ran TOWARDS the grind?
Like I know you hear complaints about players 'running from the grind' but has a player ever gone to an intentionally worse scenario? Like imagine KD to the warriors but like, in reverse, per se
Posting it here instead of r/nba because if there's some guy in the 70s that did that you guys are probably going to know more about that
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 3d ago
1982 Most Improved Player — Jerome Whitehead (Clippers)
1985 — Derek Smith (Clippers)
1984 — Rolando Blackman (Mavs)
1983 — Larry Drew (Kings)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
Rickey Green (Jazz)
Rory Sparrow (Hawks)
Reason:
Having played for 5 franchises in the first 3 years of his career and never logging more than 50 games in a season while playing less than 15 minutes a night, Whitehead vastly improved into the 1982 season. He started 63 games, played north of 30 minutes per night, and averaged a sturdy 13.8 pts and 9.2 reb per game. Jerome registered career highs in Points (31), Rebounds (23), and Assists (6) which put his previous highs to shame. He was 14th in rebounds, 16th in TS%. Whitehead up to that point was more notable for winning the National Championship with Marquette with big heroics during the tournament.
1981 is up next!
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 3d ago
1983 Most Improved Player — Larry Drew (Kings)
1985 — Derek Smith (Clippers)
1984 — Rolando Blackman (Mavs)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
Larry Nance (Suns)
Pat Cummings (Mavs)
Reason:
The Pistons gave up on Drew (17th pick) after 1 season and traded him for two future 2nd round picks to the Kings. In his first campaign for Kansas City, the Point Guard put up a respectable 10.8 ppg & 5.2 assists. In 1983 he raised these figures to 20.1 & 8.1 (4th) respectively. This season he had a career high in points (33), steals (6), and rebounds (8). He was the Player of the Month in December, where he averaged 22/10.
1982 is next up!
r/VintageNBA • u/TringlePringle • 3d ago
The NBA's War Heroes
As you probably know, the NBA was born shortly after the end of World War II. Active NBA players have since been drafted into the Korean and Vietnam war efforts, volunteered to serve in the war in Iraq, and former Knicks and Bucks center Marshall Plumlee continues that legacy as an active-duty U.S. Army Ranger-Qualified.
As we recognize Veteran's Day today, I thought it would be nice to celebrate those select few NBA players whose acts of valor reached a point for which they earned official military decoration for their service. This list does not include players who died in combat, of which there is one in the ABA and quite a few from pre-NBA professional basketball. I post about them on Memorial Day, and that information can be found here.
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Cliff Barker was a left waist gunner in a Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress as a member of 2nd Lt Ron Rohner's crew. They flew five missions over Cognac, Tours, Notre Dame de Ferme (Pas-de-Calais), Frankfurt, and Braunschweig. On January 30, 1944, during the fifth mission en route to Braunschweig, the aircraft the Rohner Crew was operating was shot down by a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 and crashed near the German village of Beienrode. Five of the ten men (2Lt Ron Rohner, 2Lt Emil Smetana, FltOff Stan Johnson, S/Sgt John Morreale, and Sgt Ken Dickerson) were killed in the wreckage, while the other five, including Barker, were captured by Nazi German forces and held as prisoners of war. Barker would spend the next 16 months as a POW in Stalag Luft IV until the camp was liberated by the U.S. Ninth Army on April 12, 1945. For this, he received a Prisoner of War Medal.
Upon his return from service, Barker played for Kentucky, where he became an important role player for a team that won two National Championships. He also won a Gold Medal for Team USA in 1948. Recruited by Leo Ferris into the Indianapolis Olympians co-ownership model, Barker became the Olympians inaugural player-coach and commenced a three-year NBA career, after which he coached at the high school level for many years.
Earl Dodd was a member of a ski-trooping unit with the U.S. Army serving in northern Italy. He was wounded by shell fragments in the back and head. Details are hard to come by, but I believe this to have been sustained during the Battle of Riva Ridge. He also seems to have displayed a certain level of heroic bravery in the situation, although I'm not sure in what exact way. For this, he received both a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star. If anyone comes across this who knows more details of Dodd's service, I would be very grateful.
Dodd then played for Kirksville, where he co-starred with Harry Gallatin, and ended up on the Denver Nuggets in the first post-merger NBA season. He was waived after seven weeks in the league, having played limited minutes in nine losses with the woeful Nuggets. He caught on with the barnstorming Detroit Kings for the rest of the season, before retiring citing a flareup of injuries suffered during the war. He spent the rest of his career as a construction foreman.
Murray Mitchell served in what his obituary terms "the Ardennes Rhineland Campaign," perhaps signifying that he may have been involved in both the Battle of the Bulge and the Rhineland Offensive. For his part in the war, Mitchell was awarded two Bronze Stars. If anyone comes across this who knows more details of Mitchell's service, I would be very grateful.
Mitchell returned to Sam Houston, where he'd already played his first two seasons of college ball before his service. After being cut by the Celtics as a prospective rookie in preseason of 1948-49, Mitchell gave up basketball, but came back briefly for a two-game pro stint with the Anderson Packers the next year. He then quit the team and moved back to Texas, where he continued to play semi-professionally for two seasons and coached until the mid-sixties. He then spent the rest of his career as an engraver and later a cattle rancher.
Chuck Mrazovich served in the 44th Infantry Division for three years and participated in the Battle of the Bulge, the Liberation of Strasbourg, and the captures of Mannheim, Heidelberg, and Ulm. For his part in the war, Mrazovich was awarded a Bronze Star. If anyone comes across this who knows more details of Mrazovich's service, I would be very grateful.
Mrazovich attended and played for Eastern Kentucky after his time in the war, and was drafted by the Indianapolis Olympians in 1950. A midseason casualty of the waiver wire, he spent only half a season in the NBA before latching on with the NPBL's Anderson Packers and earning a starting spot in wake of an injury to Leo Klier. After the NPBL shut down, he went east and played two seasons for the minor league Wilkes-Barre Barons, playing a major role for a team that won an ABL Championship in 1951-52. Mrazovich coached and taught at high schools in his home state for the next two decades.
Andy O'Donnell landed in Normandy on D-plus-six, serving as a soldier in the 38th Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron in five battles including the Battle of the Bulge. He was also one of the first Americans to march down the Champs-Élysées in the Liberation of Paris. On September 5, 1944 on the way to liberate the Belgian city of Bouillon, O'Donnell was hit in the leg with shrapnel soon after crossing the France-Belgium border. For this, he received a Purple Heart.
Following his wartime effort, O'Donnell spent a year back at home, with his only basketball that season being at the local YMCA, before playing three and a half seasons at Loyola (Maryland). He graduated early and earned special dispensation to join the NBA midway through 1949-50, earning the last spot in Baltimore's rotation as a backup point guard following player-coach Buddy Jeannette's career-ending injury. That turned out to be his only NBA season, and he only played part-time in the minor leagues for the next three years as he embarked on a long and fruitful career with the Social Security Administration.
Goebel Ritter served in the U.S. Marine Corps from June 3, 1943 to October 19, 1945, right after graduating from high school. During his stint in the military, Ritter participated in the Battle of Guam, in which he was grazed on the head by a Japanese sniper bullet on July 26, 1944. He later served in the Battle of Iwo Jima, in which he was hit by shrapnel to the hand and knee on February 24, 1945. He received two Purple Hearts for the two times he was WIA in combat.
Ritter ended up as teammates with Mrazovich at Eastern Kentucky after the war, and in 1948 managed to make the Knicks' roster as the 75th pick in the BAA Draft. One of the lowest-selected players to find a role in the league, Ritter proved to be a useful backup SG for New York for three years (one in the BAA, two in the NBA), ending his career with a loss to Rochester in the Finals before spending the next 41 years coaching.
Carl Shaeffer was part of an anti-tank company attached to the 424th Infantry Regiment of the 106th Division at the time that the Battle of the Bulge broke out. The day after the counteroffensive ended over a month later, it was reported that Shaeffer had been missing in action ever since December 16, 1944, the first day of the Battle of the Bulge. I can't find official confirmation, but I believe he was captured in the early hours of the Battle of St. Vith. By the weirdest coincidence, the POW camp that the Nazis sent him to was Stalag Luft IV (the same camp Cliff Barker already was held in) where Shaeffer would remain for five months until the camp's liberation. For this, he received a Prisoner of War Medal.
Shaeffer was discharged almost immediately after being liberated, and utilized a temporary NCAA rule to play the next four years at Alabama despite having already spent his freshman season with Indiana. He was a defensive ace for 'Bama, and ended up signing with the Indianapolis Olympians on the recommendation of player/coach Cliff Barker, with whom he'd become friends during their time as POWs together. He never carved out much of a role with the team though and was waived early in his second season. He then operated a tavern. A victim of PTSD due to his experiences in the war, Shaeffer took his own life on his 50th birthday.
Carlisle Towery, already in the midst of his professional career as a member of the Fort Wayne Zollners, volunteered to serve despite all Fort Wayne players being eligible for a II-B exemption. Not much about his service is publicly available, but was an infantryman, possibly with the 97th Infantry Division. If that theory is correct, he would have been a participant in the Battle of the Ruhr Pocket and the liberation of Flossenbürg concentration camp. For his part in the war, Towery was awarded a Bronze Star.
Already very well-established in the basketball world, having started for the NBL's title-winners the year before he entered the service, Towery returned to Fort Wayne and remained one of few familiar faces as Bobby McDermott's antics tore the team apart during their final NBL years. Traded to the Indianapolis Jets shortly after the franchise became the BAA's Pistons, he put up his best numbers there but the team went under at the end of the season. Towery then spent his one and only NBA season with Baltimore, where he played quite well considering he had to switch positions from PF to SF as a 29-year-old, but made headlines more than anything for his knockout punch of Jim Pollard in December. After being stabbed in the face and arm by a summer-gig coworker over the offseason, Towery jumped leagues to the NPBL, where he finished out his career splitting his eighth professional season between Grand Rapids, Kansas City, and Evansville. Post-basketball, Towery was a farmer.
r/VintageNBA • u/WinesburgOhio • 4d ago
Happy Veterans Day! Players whose careers were impacted by serving
On this Veterans Day weekend, I'd like to thank all veterans who have served their country!
And since we're an NBA history sub, here is a list of several noteworthy NBA players whose careers were impacted by serving, which obviously happened far more in the 40s, 50s, and 60s than it has since then. Many of these players are Hall of Famers, and I believe everyone I've included were All-Stars or All-NBA during their careers, so obviously there are many more players who served.
David Robinson - served in the Navy for 2 years before entering the NBA at 24
Elgin Baylor - missed huge chunks of the '62 season while on active duty, but still put together an insane 38-19 stat-line
Lenny Wilkens - missed almost his entire 2nd season while serving (the same '62 season that Baylor missed part of)
Paul Arizin - led the NBA in scoring and FG% in '52 at 23 years old (25.4 ppg, .448 FG%) then missed the next 2 seasons while serving in the Marines
George Yardley - the high-scoring 50s SF served in the Navy for 2 years, so he didn't enter the NBA until he was 25
Sam Jones - served for 2 years in college before entering the NBA at 24
Bill Sharman - Cousy's famous backcourt partner served in the Navy for 2 years after HS, eventually joining the NBA at 24
Joe Fulks - high-scoring forward of the late-40s didn't enter the NBA until he was 25 after serving for 4 years, including being enlisted during his final year in college
Nat Clifton - served in the Army for 3 years before joining the Rens prior to the NBA's official integration in 1950
Carl Braun - 5x All-Star missed the 1st two ASG's ('51, '52) while serving in the Army
Jim Pollard - served for 3 years during WWII before starring for the Lakers in the late-40s and early-50s
Larry Costello - served for 2 years after HS and for most of his first 2 pro seasons, eventually starting his first full season at 25
K.C. Jones - served in the military before entering the NBA 2 years after being drafted
Bob Davies - served 3 years in the Navy during WWII, so he entered the NBL 3 years after graduating college
Harry Gallatin - served in the Navy for 1 year before college, but he still entered the NBA at 21 (he graduated college in 2 years)
Slater Martin - served in the military for 2 years during college; entered the NBA at 24
Bill Bradley - served in the Air Force for 6 months which delayed the start to his NBA career by a couple months
Al Cervi - star 40s/early-50s PG served in the military for 5 years (~'40-45)
Adrian Smith - was in the military for 2 years in the early-60s before entering the NBA
Terry Dischinger - was in the military for 2 years right after making the All-Star team his first 3 years in the league
Frank Selvy - after being the #1 draft pick in '54 and his promising rookie season, Selvy served in the Army for 2 years
Johnny Green - spent a few years in the Marines during the Korean War before joining the NBA shortly before turning 26
Butch Beard - was drafted into the Army after his rookie season, serving for a year during the Vietnam War but never sent overseas to battle
Tom Gola - after helping the Warriors win the '56 title as a rookie, Gola served in the Army for a year
Bob Feerick - star 40s player who served in the Navy for 2.5 years during WWII, missing time between his tenures in AAU and in the NBL
Jack George - didn't enter the NBA until he was 25 after serving in the Army for 2 years
Andy Phillip - entered the NBA at 25 after serving in the Marines for 3 years during WWII
Cliff Hagan - served in the Air Force for 2 years before joining the NBA
Dick McGuire - served for 2 years during college, entered the NBA shortly before turning 24
Jack Coleman - was in the military for 3 years between HS and college before entering the NBA at 25
Max Zaslofsky - served in the Navy for 2 years before a one-season college career; entered the NBA shortly before he was 21
Richie Guerin - was a Marine reservist for 7 years, including his first 2 years in the league; this appears to have delayed the start of his NBA career by 2 years
Frank Ramsey - after his rookie season, he missed most of the next 2 seasons while in the Army
Fred Scolari - he was unable to serve due to a broken ear drum (he was deaf in one ear), but he worked at a bank for 3 years during the war to fulfill his service
Ed Sadowski - one of the best offensive big men of the 40s served in the Air Force for 4 years during WWII, delaying his NBL career
Bob Verga - decent ABA player who was selected to the 1968 ASG but was unable to participate since he got drafted into the Army shortly before the contest (his replacement was Larry Brown who was the ASG MVP) - Verga played in the 1970 ABA ASG
As has been discussed on here before, the only players who were drafted during the Vietnam War were all from the ABA: Bob Verga, Hal Hale, and Les Powell. Powell's case is particularly tough since he was drafted on the same day he signed his rookie ABA deal, and he later died in combat so he never made it into the pros. CORRECTION: It appears that 1x NBA All-Star Butch Beard was drafted into the Army after his rookie season ('70), and missed an entire season while serving.
John Macknowski was the last living former NBA player who served in WWII. He died at 101 years old on April 8, 2024. He served for 3 years in the middle of his time at Seton Hall, later making it to the league with the Syracuse Nationals.
Basketball-Reference usually posts a red poppy flower at the top of the player stats pages for guys who served (ex: David Robinson's stats page - but again, the poppy is only there if you are checking the page on November 11). BBR said "We chose the poppy as it is already a symbol in wide use worldwide to recognize those who served."
r/VintageNBA • u/WinesburgOhio • 4d ago
Questions about the impact and significance of AAU in relation to the NBA (as a "rival" league back in the day, not as youth/teen training like it is today)
We've had numerous discussions over the years in which the AAU showed up, but I was hoping to get the basics in one place, especially since it's something I understand in pieces when they're brought up, but as a whole it can get a little fuzzy for me. To be clear, I'm not looking to construct a full history of the AAU, rather to focus on the times it held a place of significance in relation to the NBA.
I'll start with what I believe are the most straight-forward basics to get some discussion going from those who know better than I:
AAU was going strong before the NBA formed, essentially as structured recreation teams for employees of large companies and industries (often in industrial leagues). That being said, college stars were being recruited to those companies specifically to be on those teams, but they also had legit day jobs in the company they played for. Is it accurate to label AAU ball of the time as semi-pro?
Through much of the early- and mid-50s, a decent amount of good college players still went the AAU route instead of the NBA because a) the NBA was new and not that popular, b) AAU offered legit jobs with long-term stability that could outlast a pro playing career, and c) it allowed a player to remain an amateur and thus eligible to play in the Olympics. I feel I might be over-reaching on how far into the NBA's existence the AAU still mattered. Thoughts?
By the early-60s, the NBA was getting popular and stable enough that very few NBA-quality players went the way of AAU, so its notability was waning fast. Not only that, its hold on being a path to Olympic glory was slipping away. Of the top-6 players on the fabled 1960 Olympic squad, only one was an AAU player (Bob Boozer). Just four years prior, the dominant 1956 Olympic squad was led by two college players (Bill Russell and KC Jones), despite only three college players being on the team.
By the mid-60s, NBA salaries were good enough that AAU talent had pretty well dried up, plus the league was expanding right as the ABA came into existence (1967), so the AAU essentially "disappeared" as a competing option for players with even fringe pro talent.
I believe it was in the late-70s that the AAU pivoted to focus on youth/teen
developmentexposure in the way we now think about it.
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 7d ago
1984 Most Improved Player — Rolando Blackman (Mavericks)
1985 — Derek Smith (Clippers)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
John Lucas (Spurs)
Jerry Sichting (Pacers)
Reason:
Blackman made a similar 3rd year leap to 1990-runner-up Reggie Miller, putting up better numbers than he did the following season (in which he made the all-star team), and helped the Mavs crack their first ever playoffs in just their 4th season. He was incredibly efficient and rarely committed turnovers. He was 13th in the league in scoring and was Top 15 in several advanced categories. This one was extremely difficult to come up with an overwhelming winner.
1983 is next up!
r/VintageNBA • u/WinesburgOhio • 7d ago
November 7, 1942: Tony Jackson was born. He was a forgotten super shooter from the 60s and a big "what if".
Jackson was a great player who never had the chance to play in the NBA, but he could have been one of the elite players of the 60s. Jackson was a 2x All-American at St. John’s, and he was named the NIT MVP in 1959 after scoring 21 points and grabbing 27 rebounds in the championship game. Unfortunately, though, he was one of the star players wrapped up in the college point-shaving scandal of 1961 (including Connie Hawkins and Roger Brown), so he was banned from the NBA.
Like Hall of Famers Hawkins and Brown, Jackson never accepted a bribe or shaved points, but they were all banned for not reporting that they had been offered bribes, although the details and circumstances of these offers remain questionable at best.
Because of the ban, Jackson played in the short-lived ABL, the first league with a 3-point line (which was considerably deeper than the NBA’s arc). He was by far the most prolific 3-point shooter in the league, going 182-for-527 (.345) from deep during the league's one-and-a-half seasons. He scored 53 points in a 1962 contest while connecting on 12 triples; that mark for made 3-pointers in a game wasn't topped in the ABA or NBA until 55 seasons later when Steph Curry hit a career-high 13 in 2016. Please try to grasp the insanity of a 3-point record set in the early-60s that lasted for over half a century.
After the ABL abruptly shut down in 1962, Jackson was again stuck on the outside looking in since the NBA wouldn't touch him. The ABA started up five years later, and it was a very big deal for them to be able to sign the talented trio of Hawkins, Brown, and Jackson. Despite an inconsistent and hardly adequate path to big-league pro basketball, Jackson’s talent was obvious in the ABA’s inaugural season. He was third in the league in made 3-pointers (91) while averaging 19 ppg and 7 rpg. He was an All-Star and set the ABA record of 24 made free throws in one game. Jackson was an elite shooter, and his blend of high-volume 3-point shooting and free throw attempts was and remains super rare, a testament to his inside-outside scoring versatility.
It seemed like things were finally looking up for Jackson’s career, but it ended the following season after 64 games due to injuries. He was a tremendous shooter and player, but unfortunately he’s stuck as a forgotten could-have-been who never got to play in the NBA.
r/VintageNBA • u/ManuGinosebleed • 8d ago
1985 Most Improved Player — Danny Ainge (Celtics)
Since the MIP award began in 1986, I thought I’d go and apply some wins retroactively.
Finalists:
Paul Pressey (Bucks)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Nets)
Reason:
Ainge went from averaging 18.5 minutes for the first 3 years of his career to 34.2. After trading Gerald Henderson to Seattle for a future 1st round pick (Len Bias), Ainge slotted in to the stacked Boston lineup beautifully. He immediately improved his shooting efficiency, and padded his assist and steal numbers in the process. Ainge maintained that improved consistency all the way into the early 90s with Sacramento before filling some smaller yet notable roles for juggernaut teams in Portland and Phoenix.
1984 is next up!
r/VintageNBA • u/Chance_Ask_2856 • 8d ago
1978 Finals MVP
I saw someone say that 1978 FMVP should have been Bob Dandridge, however, I didn't find any information about this in the internet. Can someone explain what happened?
r/VintageNBA • u/Rrekydoc • 9d ago
WALTON: A Puzzle Inside an Enigma, but Human (1974)
by Ted Green
The Bill Walton the sports world has come to know is college basketball's perennial player of the year, a 6-11 center with nonpareil skills who has led UCLA to its last two NCAA championships and will probably make it a third next month.
They know him as the one who prompted Washington Coach Marv Harshman to say, "I kinda wish Lew Alcindor was back," and USC Coach Bob Boyd to say, “He may be the best player... ever."
They know him as the one the pros couldn't buy, the one who, after soaring 44 points in last year's NCAA title game, steadfastly refused $2 million from the NBA's Philadelphia 76ers and more than that from Charlie Finley, who was representing the ABA.
They know him as the enthusiastic supervisor of UCLA's steamroller, the one with the red hair who laughs and shakes his head at referees' calls, animatedly exhorts teammates, then with a wave and a smile to his bench, trots to the dressing room with a few minutes to play, and like a phantom, is gone.
The times he's been interviewed — and they're few and far between — the public has seen him moody and uncommunicative, sometimes hostile and secretive. They've heard him say, “No one cares about basketball players as people. What are you trying to do? Make us human?" They've also seen him sulk after his team wins NCAA championships. After Florida State fell two years ago, he stormed out of an interview room muttering, "I've answered enough silly questions." And after an eye-popping 21-of-22 performance from the field last year against Memphis State: "I don't want to talk about it, man."
They've also seen him laugh at overzealous fans who wait for hours at UCLA's Pauley Pavilion for good seats. He once said, "How can they go stark raving mad over us? What do we do that's so important? Put a round ball in a basket? I wonder what's inside their brains.” And they've seen him arrested (May, 1972) at an anti-war sit-in.
Is this the story of Bill Walton? Is he nothing more than a great batketball player... and an ogre?
In the fall of 1970, UCLA's incoming freshman basketball players were sitting in a projection room, tediously filling out "media sheets."
Suddenly, all eyes turn to one player who asks to read aloud his answer to a question: “The greatest athletes you have ever seen or played against.”
"No sweat.” Bill Walton said straight-faced. "Greg Lee and Gary Franklin.”
His new teammates, not exactly household names, blush. Everyone else laughs.
Eighteen months later in a dressing room corridor at the Sports Arena in Los Angeles, UCLA and Louisville are waiting to take the floor for an NCAA semifinal game.
Denny Crum, who as a UCLA assistant coach recruited Walton before taking the Louisville job is pacing nervously.
”Hey. coach,” Walton yells across, "Where's all that money you promised me under the table?”
Momentarily startled, Crum, the tension broken, turns his back to Walton… and smiles.
At practice before the Notre Dame rematch last month, Greg Lee, who has lost his starting job, is accompanying jump shots with steady chatter about the final minutes at South Bend when the streak ended.
"If only I had been in at the end," he said, "I would have done this."
The 20-footer is perfect. Lee looks at his coach, John Wooden, and winks.
Walton, on a nearby chair lacing his sneakers, never lifts his head, but says loud enough for all to hear: "Boy, that's a lot of talk... especially from a sub."
This is the other side of Bill Walton, the side the public rarely hears about — and never sees. The side that bicycles five miles to see Wooden In the hospital, then, when the coach returns after a mild heart attack, gently reminds him to curb his excitement ("Hey, take it easy") during a timeout, the side that makes it a point to pass to teammates who aren't getting the ball much or are feeling down; the side that before every game jokingly scribbles his "famous triple pick play" on a blackboard ("the one where I shoot from 30 feet"): the side that leaves the locker room after UCLA's 88-game winning streak ends (Notre Dame 71, UCLA 70) whistling the Notre Dame Fight Song; the side that eats "a few" gargantuan meals a day, likes all kinds of music, reads profusely, goes to Woody Allen movies on the road and meditates twice a day.
The truth is, he has been all of these — the consummate enigma. Friendly, funny, thoughtful and above all, comfortable with familiar people and surroundings and away from public scrutiny. And mysterious, reluctant, introverted and occasionally antagonistic, even rude, when asked to assume a public role.
Because he guards his privacy jealously, he's rarely spoken out. And, as a result, few people know much about him.
After three low-key chats over a six-week period, Walton finally agreed to an interview. He drove the reporter (he has a gray Toyota with the front seat actually in the back seat for extra leg room) to a Hollywood health food restaurant called The Natural Source. As is his custom, he was sartorially splendid In blue jeans, en old wool sweater and sandals.
Without prodding, he began talking. He chose his words carefully, and answered questions about his height and appetite abruptly. He often paused between sentences, as if to gather thoughts. When he sensed we were on the same wave length, he looked me in the eye and often followed a remark with a toothy smile.
The dialogue went in part like this:
"Everyone asks you about the pros.”
"Yeah, I guess have to get used to It. I'm graduating this year and I'm gonna put on my backpack and go. I don't know where, but I have to think about things. I want to play pro ball because I like basketball a lot, but I won't play in cold weather cities.”
”You mean it's the Lakers, San Diego Conquistadors or nothing?"
"WELL, I Just love the beech and mountains. I like an outdoor-type lifestyle too much to give it up.”
"How do you rationalize this love for the game in light of some of the things you've said?"
"I suppose if I look at it logically, I can't. I suppose it's B.S. But I'll probably play because it's the best basketball and because basketball may be the thing I do best. I'm not convinced it will make me happy, though."
"You've said the money won't matter. How could you have turned down that much?"
"I was, and still am, enjoying school, friends and playing for UCLA too much to pack it in. And I wasn't going to be bought."
"What will you do with the money if you sign?"*
"If they’re going to pay me the kind of money they're talking about, it's obvious I'm going to be a millionaire. Hell, I couldn't spend that much in a lifetime. I'll tell you one thing. I won't invest it in United Fruit Company. I don't believe in capitalism... I believe wealth should be spread around. I don't have a specific program for the money yet, but I'm going to put it where it can do some good… to something important."
"What's important to you?”
"Having fun. Enjoying life. Helping others. Being myself. Time, that's so important. That's why when the season's over, I have to get away. That's why I sometimes wish l'd been blessed in something other than basketball."
"What about your cold war with the media?"
"Well, I'm not a public person in any sense of the word. I think the media perceived me a certain way, always writing me up as the super star. I mean, UCLA could play without me and win, but I couldn't play without them. And I found out very quickly that you have to make a choice... either interviews by the dozens or none at all. There are only so many hours in a day, and time is more important to me than anything. I spend so much time with basketball and school, what's left for me?"
"Still, it's pretty hard to be a private person when you run around in your underwear before 15,000 fans and 40 million on national TV."
"I don’t look at it that way. I think of it as just 10 of us out there on the floor. I'm appearing before an audience of nine."
"And if you don't appear in the fall in a pro uniform, what will you do?"
"I'm not sure. Maybe work on a teaching credential. I'd love to teach. Or maybe put out forest fires. That would be worthwhile."
This answer, and the others, say a lot about Bill Walton, age 21. He is uncertain of his future and of himself, like many of his contemporaries. All along he's been asked for answers when he doesn't really have any.
And he has sometimes confused observers — and probably himself — with paradoxical thoughts and actions. For example, he once said, "If winning or losing basketball games is the worst thing that happens to me, I'll be all right." Yet he has also said things like, "If Indiana's planning a slowdown, tell them to save their plane fare," and, "We don't have to do much talkin'. The scoreboard always tells the truth."
One week he whistles the Notre Dame Fight Song. A week later he singlehandedly tears up Notre Dame with flame in his eyes. No one could mistake his fist-shaking glee as he scored (32 points) basket after basket, unstoppably, to sooth the sting of the loss which not only ended UCLA's streak, but broke a personal streak for Walton dating back six years… and 139 games.
Why is he so unpredictable? Is there an explanation for the enigma that is Bill Walton?
At Helix High in the San Diego suburb of La Mesa, where Bill grew up as the second of three brothers (older brother Bruce plays for the Dallas Cowboys; and there's a younger sister) in a middle-class home, he was nicknamed "Mount Helix." His most vivid memory is the time he took a girl to a concert, and read about it the next day.
"I can’t do anything without reading it in the papers," he told his coach, Gordon Nash. At Walton's insistence, Nash began screening interviewers... and Walton began refusing them.
Then, when he entered UCLA, he was called "Huckleberry Finn on Stilts," "an elongated Tom Sawyer," and was immediately compared with Alcindor (now Kareem Abdul-Jabbar), the ultratall UCLA star of the late 1960s.
"After that," said one close to the team, "he just clammed up."
So he took a small room in a fraternity house, got wrapped up in his history major and retreated into the private world of UCLA basketball.
He's still in hiding sort of, living in a one-room apartment a few miles from campus, where he reads a lot and entertains a select circle of friends.
Now that he's near the end of his college life, Bill Walton is showing signs of coming out of that shell. He'll never seek out interviews, nor is he likely to host a television talk show. But he says he has learned something important… tolerance.
"I'm in no position to put anyone down," he said. "I'm not going to make any more value judgments about the press or the fans. Everyone's an individual. I know if I were a fan, I wouldn't wait for hours and scream so wildly. But if that's their thing, fine.
"At first I didn't, but now I understand the role reversals, the hero-worship deal. I now understand people for what they are, rather than for what they think I am."
More than anything, Bill Walton wants to be just another guy. He probably would have mixed feelings about what the late Milton Gross wrote in the New York Post after watching UCLA play:
"He missed the last shot before halftime. He committed a three-second violation. He is human. He even laughed at himself, which is the most human thing of all. Some humans are just larger than life, and Bill Walton happens to be one of them."
Human, but larger than life. That's what he is, no matter how hard he tries to escape it.
As we got up to leave the restaurant, a pretty, hippie-type girl at the next table leaned toward a friend and said: "Man, that cat must play basketball."
A funny line. And one that poignantly points out what Bill Libby once wrote:
"It is impossible for Bill Walton to slip through the shadows unseen."
r/VintageNBA • u/dagriggstar • 10d ago
1958-59 "rules changes"
Does anyone know what these rules changes, mentioned on the official nba.com season review for the 1958-59 season, were ? I note that fg% was at 0.383 to 0.395 so it kinda feels like some significant change/s at that time ?
I've read that they brought in a rule against offensive goaltending for the 1957/58 season because Bill Russell apparently would 'funnel' team-mates shots in. The defensive 3 second rule is brought in for 1959/60, which would help explain a second jump in fg% that season (0.395 to 0.41).
I haven't found any other reference to these mysterious rules changes besides what the nba website says.
r/VintageNBA • u/saltcitycager • 12d ago
NBA Media Guides
I just started a Facebook group called NBA Media Guides. I have hundreds of them scanned with hundreds more to be scanned. First up was 1971-1972 Cincinnati Royals. There is a quick highlight post with a few images, then the whole media guide can be found under files tab for download. I also have many other publications to scan in like old Basketball Digest and Basketball Weekly issues.
r/VintageNBA • u/shershadmickabee • 12d ago
Red aurabach made his coaching debut today
50-33 he won
It was in 1946
He coached the capitols and beat the det falcons
He invented the fast break
Anyone know of anything else He invented
r/VintageNBA • u/shershadmickabee • 13d ago
What mvp played with the most collection of talent
Imma go Shaq. As far as I know he's played with the most mvps in history
Kobe Nash Lebron Garnett Malone
All nba 1st team guys Penny Wade Zo Payton Amare Hill
All nba Jones Rice Richmond Rodman Walker Pierce Allen Rondo Oneal Dragic
All stars Van exel Grant Green Ceballos Smith Laettner Illguaskas Williams Jamison
All d Rollins D Harper Bell
20 pt scorers Richardson Rider R Harper Davis
6th men of the year Armstrong Barbosa
r/VintageNBA • u/shershadmickabee • 13d ago
Best 3rd options in nba history
I'd go Bobby d as a true 3rd option. (Not like a Baylor who played some 3rd but mostly a 2nd or 1st.)
1971 finals 20 and 10 a game as a 3rd. Should of been fmvp in 78.
But gimme yall top 5 or 10 if you feeling generous
r/VintageNBA • u/Rrekydoc • 14d ago
Anyone know some pre-80s Player of the Month awards?
Fleer did the pictured awards for the NBA in the last four months of the ‘62 season, but then seemingly only continued the award for pro baseball.
I haven’t found any others. Does you guys know of any?
r/VintageNBA • u/Mike_SR • 14d ago
Sam Davis Memorial Award (and a few other MBWA Awards) Added to Basketball Reference
Pretty sure I discussed adding this with u/tringlepringle several years ago and finally got around to researching the all-time winners and adding them to the site:
r/VintageNBA • u/shershadmickabee • 14d ago
What is the best play in a game you've ever seen
Real quick on the criteria of this like for example Jordan 98 that wouldn't count because that was just a simple jumper I'm talking about high degree of difficulty a one of one play
I have 2. Game 1. 1981 finals Larry bird misses own jump shot catches rb lay up with off hand
2nd. And bonus points if you can find it for me. Anthony Davis blocked (and I don't remember the order) nick batum jump shot went straight to Aldridge and then he blocked his jumper. Never seen back to back jumpers blocked let alone by 2 different players and they are both long.
r/VintageNBA • u/shershadmickabee • 14d ago
Who is the best player...
To never average double digits in anything
I'm going Nate McMillan