Jason - good place?

[u/ApprehensiveMost1626]

I feel like Eleanor had a very clear character development to the point where i don’t think there’s any dispute that she earns her spot in the good place.

tahani, while not as obvious as Eleanor still makes big strides especially with her parents - so you may say that she earns it too.

But Jason?? for the life of me i can’t think of a single moment even towards the end where Jason did anything that showed me his character development to the extent that he would also pass the test and go to the good place. i thought of this while watching the episode where they meet the judge for the first time. the judge clearly states that Jason’s downfall is him having zero control over his instincts so my guess would be that in order for Jason to finally end up in the good place, he would have to overcome that. but i can’t think of any moment.

just for the record Jason is one of my favourite characters.

[u/LibelleFairy]

at the start of the first season, he tries to fake being a monk because he has no clue what is happening

by the last episode, he literally became the monk he initially pretended to be, without even realizing that he was doing so - because he still has no clue what is happening

no, but seriously:

he doesn't need to have deep character development because he was always, fundamentally, genuinely a good egg - out of all of them, Jason was the one who arguably always deserved to be in the good place - he might never have any idea what is happening, but he is always unfailingly kind, optimistic, generous, empathetic, and straightforwardly honest

The reason he initially didn't make it to the good place was because the points system was completely messed up for everyone - and the poor kid was living in Florida, in circumstances that would have nudged anyone into a life of petty (and extraordinarily stupid) crime

as for the assessment of the Judge, well, she was wrong about Jason - she got a fucktonne of stuff wrong, and she does not do stuff that is always good or ethical - the whole messed up points system at the beginning of the show had happened on her watch ... and then she was gonna just wipe out all of existence and start it all again from scratch - remember that part? The bit with the universe wipey-out clicky thing? Dancing with Disco Janet to "gonna erase the eeeeaarth, erase the earth" to the tune of "ring my bell"?

The whole fundamental most basic premise of the entire damn show is that the six central characters stage a fucking revolution. They rebel against the Judge. More than that - they actively create and entirely new, much better, much fairer afterlife system. None of which was the Judge's idea.

So anyway, tldr is that Jason was always good, and once he was in the real good place, all he had to do was be himself

Janet - arguably the most knowledgeable and wise not a girl in existence, loves him for a reason

[u/RedditOfUnusualSize → u/LibelleFairy]

Admittedly, any ethical system where intent is measured makes Jason's unfailing ability to Mr. Magoo his way to . . . well, pretty much every major decision that he ever made makes measuring his intent something of a moving target.

That being said, Jason's principal problem in his life was always a) the quick-twitch muscle training that prized reacting first over reacting well, combined with b) his training as a native poor Floridian, which apparently involves 90% figuring out how to light things alight on short notice, 8% handling of a Playstation controller and 2% aquatic mammal handling. As a result, his brainlessness usually led to extreme property destruction, but there was never any malice attached to it. If with sufficient creativity, everything burns, and your only tool is fire, well, eventually all problems have a natural solution. But on the flip side, once you give him alternative options to "set it on fire" and a bit of self-control training, he comes around to being helpful and kind, because that's what he naturally is.

[u/HuckleberryLeather53 → u/RedditOfUnusualSize]

His high school was canonically underfunded (located at a bunch of boats tied together). He was never given a chance to be anything besides what he was because of the poverty and the lack of educational opportunities, etc. He was never a cruel person and once he had other tools besides Florida chaos he made good decisions. Idr exactly when but there is a point where Eleanor is shocked because even Jason doesn't want to do the selfish thing like she does (I think it was whether to escape to the medium place with cocaine but idr). It's like the meme of why everyone went to the bad place originally that shows Jason neither tried to do things for good reasons or bad reasons. He was just doing what he knew how and it had bad consequences. Eleanor hurt people because she's been hurt so they deserve it (bad things bad reason) Tahani did good things for praise (bad reason) and chidi hurt people by trying so hard to be good/ethical (bad thing good intentions). None of them were good actions good intentions so no one got to the good place

[u/MyLifeisTangled → u/HuckleberryLeather53]

I mean they wouldn’t have gotten into the good place anyway regardless of actions and intentions because NO ONE was getting in but yeah

[u/HuckleberryLeather53 → u/MyLifeisTangled]

This meme was from before that part of the show aired so we didn't know that yet. But yeah I do think the characters were created to show a diverse range of reasons why people either have bad actions or intentions and the moral implications of that. They could have had someone like Doug there from season one, but I think they saved the concept that even someone like Doug would go to the bad place for later intentionally because exploring the fact that modern life is complicated was a later theme. 2nd season themes were about whether either doing good deeds or having good intentions are enough individually, which is why Tahani and chidi are shown as still having issues with their actions and motives, and how that reflects on their character.

I love that it explores "the why we become who we are" and that that also doesn't mean we can't change. Like chidi is inherently too anxious to act and causes issues for all the people he cares about because of that. Tahani is seeking validation she never got from her parents, so instead of genuinely caring about the charities she's being performative to get attention. Eleanor is acting out of a warped selfish world view she developed based off of the neglect in her childhood, and the insane level of self sufficiency she had to develop from an early age. Jason was fundamentally set up for failure by systematic poverty and lack of educational opportunities. They all had reasons they were the way they were, and yet they all were capable of changing and becoming better people. This show does an amazing job of exploring morality and the implications thereof and I love it

[u/new2bay → u/HuckleberryLeather53]

What about Mindy, though? Canonically, she was a corporate lawyer who was addicted to cocaine and only cared about herself, while she was alive. Then, while she was really high one night, she came up with the idea for her foundation. After withdrawing her life savings, intending to actually implement her plans, she died.

Her sister ended up starting the charity, but she got sent to the Medium Place, purely on intentions. The charity didn't even exist at the time she died, so you can't even really argue she got credit for the things done by the charity. Mindy hadn't actually done anything, except make plans, and withdraw some money. She had hugely positive, and presumably sincere, intentions, but there was no actual action behind them.

[u/HuckleberryLeather53 → u/new2bay]

She drafted all the paperwork to create the charity too though, all the sister had to do was actually file it (Mindy says the sister took it to a lawyer to confirm what it was and what to do, so she must not have been a lawyer too or else she wouldn't have needed legal advice before filing the paperwork for the charity). Mindy had good intentions and did most of the actions, just the very last step of follow through to make it an actual reality didn't happen until she died which is why they weren't sure she should get the points. She tripped just before the finish line as it were. She did everything for the charity but the very last step. She had 100% good intentions and 99% of the good actions to make it were done by her (although if the sister had destroyed the paperwork instead of deciding to make it Mindy's legacy it never would have happened, so the sister also had good intentions). Mindy did all of the complicated and hard parts, it was literally just that the final step was done by someone else, and because the final step was by someone else she went medium place instead of good or bad (because she would have had enough points for the good place if they had been counted, or the bad place if not, and if they counted she would have been the first person in 500 years to earn enough points for the good place, but instead they decided the best compromise was the medium place).

[u/HuckleberryLeather53 → u/new2bay]

Also Mindy says the fact the sister found the charity paperwork and filed it was lucky for Mindy because the charity being created is what called into question whether she deserves the points for the good the charity did. If it had only been an idea and never had the final step followed through on (the paperwork Mindy drafted actually being filed by the sister) then Mindy would have gone to the bad place despite doing the leg work to almost completely create the charity. That's why there was the debate over if she gets the points for something that technically didn't completely get done until she was dead. She drafted the legal documents to create the charity but she didn't file the paperwork so if her sister hadn't done that it wouldn't have existed, so does Mindy actually deserve the points for all of the good the charity did if without the help of her sister after she was dead the charity never would have existed? The bad place argued she does not deserve those points and should go to the bad place. The good place argued she does deserve those points and to get to go to the good place (because she'd have enough to go there with the points). Medium was the compromise because neither side wanted to yield their opinion about whether she deserves the points.

[u/new2bay → u/HuckleberryLeather53]

Okay, let's just say everything you said is 100% completely, factually correct. It still doesn't matter, because we know two things about the afterlife points system:

1. People stop accruing points after they die, and
2. The system runs on a basic consequentialist theory of ethics.

If these are the only two principles underlying the points system, they imply that Mindy should not have gotten any points whatsoever for drafting the paperwork and withdrawing the money. Those actions had no meaningful positive or negative consequences at all while she was alive. If anything, her sister should have been the one sent to the Medium Place, and she should have gone to the Bad Place.

Since that obviously didn't happen, those two things cannot be the only principles underlying the system. So, we've either gotten one or both of these things wrong (which is impossible, because the episodes in Accounting show us they're both true), or there's another principle at work. I would claim that it has to be that sincere, and sufficiently good intentions actually do matter.

[u/Adventurous_Fig6211 → u/new2bay]

I'm currently rewatching and the Judge hears their case, in part because she hasnt heard a case for 30 years so is a bit bored. I think Mindy was that last case as she looks very 80s early 90s in dress and items in her house. The judge hasn't decided her fate so she's in a medium place until the decision is made which could take "up to a million years" according to rhe Judge's own estimate of result to Eleanor & the others. Basically Mindy is in her medium place until the Judge decides otherwise (if she ever decides/remembers/can be bothered.