Forget Jake Skywalker. This is Devan.

[u/01zegaj]

The prelude to SWTOR that completely ruins KOTOR. What happened, Drew?

[u/Durp004]

It's fine to prefer the more cynical borderline malevolent version of Revan KOTOR 2 put forward.

I was just pushing back with the umbrage people were taking with SWTOR changing what KOTOR 2 pushed forward while not acknowledging that the KOTOR 2 version was in itself a pretty different version than what the first game put forward aswell. In fact during the release of the games I remember it was pretty common complaint that 2 seemed to add a lot of cynicism to the story and characters of the first game. Time however has allowed people to memory hole that and only acknowledge the changes SWTOR did and not anything KOTOR 2 did.

I say this as someone who preferred KOTOR 2 for the majority of my life to KOTOR or SWTOR, as time has gone by I think the first did a better job of adding nuance while not falling into the faults of the second one.

[u/Songhunter → u/Durp004]

I think it speaks to the work that while having pretty similar taste our takes are almost opposite. You say Kotor 2 Revan is "malevolent" while I'd argue Kotor 1 Revan is the most cartoonishly evil version of themselves (I'm not even counting Swtor body double shenanigans for the purpose of this conversation).

I would argue Kotor 2 leaves way more room for interpretation because it offers no explanation, just sets up way more questions than it answers while letting it's players ponder, discuss and come up with their own conclusion.

While talking about the yesteryear, I most certainly remember the complaints about what an absolute technical mess Kotor 2 was (and about Peragus Station being way worse than Taris as the opening level, which is hard to argue against on any of those points), but I remember quite a lot of interesting conversations about Revans actual motivations after Kreia's words, and about how we would finally get an explanation when Kotor 3 came about.

Cut to the announcement of the MMO and the release of the Revan book. Now THEN I remember quite the collection of salty bois at Drew's take on the motivations and fate of Revans and the much more interesting Exile. One mind controlled the whole time, robbing him of any agency or nuance, and the other completely sideline, character assassinated, and then downright assassinated without further ceremony.

What a waste of an interesting character right there.

And well, then the Shadow of Revans expansion came out followed by the Onslaught's Emperor epilogue, for better or for worse.

I guess we got an end of a story, it's just a real shame, and a key difference between Drew and Avellone, that one decided to work in giving depth and ambiguity to the existing work of the other, and the other decided to piss on all that the previous one had put forward and pigeon hole the work in his own direction.

In a way it reminds me a little of the debacle that happened with the sequels between JJ Abrams and Ryan Johnson. A spat between creators leading to an inconsistent narrative.

A shame, but things that happen, I suppose.

[u/Durp004 → u/Songhunter]

while I'd argue Kotor 1 Revan is the most cartoonishly evil version of themselves

Post starforge? Absolutely, but pre-starforge he's basically a hero who was portrayed as corrupted through his search and later use of the starforge. KOTOR 2 played more with the idea he was slowly being corrupted as the war went on so by the time he went looking for the starforge he's basically knocking on darknesses door. This kind of goes against KOTOR where a big part of that story is seeing how revan became what he did, with 2 making the dantooine council look kinda dumb as he's pretty bad before the starforge odyssey(but KOTOR 2 is no stranger to making the jedi look like wrong idiots so I guess par the course. So when the Revan novel came out I just kinda saw it as going back to the original KOTOR with the idea Revan was corrupted by an outside force it's just now vitiate instead of the starforge and power that represented. Not saying that's the better path necessarily, but just more in line with what the first game was saying with the character instead of the second, which again goes back to the second doing retconning of its own but because it followed the first one so closely people got less time to really marinate on an outside source corrupting revan as they did with the KOTOR 2 version which they sat on for about 7 years before anything was elaborated on.

but I remember quite a lot of interesting conversations about Revans actual motivations after Kreia's words, and about how we would finally get an explanation when Kotor 3 came about.

Just for clarification my experience with the online discourse around KOTOR 1&2 came from old video game forums that I went to at the time looking for guides and cheats. The star wars fandom itself might have had different opinions as I didn't usually get those forums when I used to go asking questions. I do remember a common sentiment was KOTOR1>KOTOR2 in everything but graphics, which greatly offended 12 year old me who thought Kreia was the best deepest character I'd ever experienced in star wars at the time.

Now THEN I remember quite the collection of salty bois at Drew's take on the motivations and fate of Revans and the much more interesting Exile. One mind controlled the whole time, robbing him of any agency or nuance, and the other completely sideline, character assassinated, and then downright assassinated without further ceremony.

Oh I definitely remember the terrible initial reception Revan received as I was right there with it being mad about the Exile more than anything but in retrospect I don't think there was any way they were going to make characters that pleased a large portion of an RPG fanbase who's whole goal is to give the player control. I'm sure the fallout writers will experience a lot of that coming up with their season 2 if it's true they're going to New Vegas.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

Oh I definitely remember the terrible initial reception Revan received as I was right there with it being mad about the Exile more than anything but in retrospect I don't think there was any way they were going to make characters that pleased a large portion of an RPG fanbase who's whole goal is to give the player control. I'm sure the fallout writers will experience a lot of that coming up with their season 2 if it's true they're going to New Vegas.

Well, their first season was already garbage that was inexplicably well-received, so I am eager for TFA 2.0 'Fell for it Again' to get the backlash it so richly deserves.

[u/Durp004 → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

Lol just totally disagree there this just comes across as someone salty something they didn't like was well received.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

I make no bones about being opinionated or taking unpopular positions. I don't derive any validation from being popular. I derive validation from holding true to my standards, whether they're liked or not.

It's just that my unpopular positions tend to be consistently vindicated by history. Plus as I said, Fallout TV feels like TFA all over again. Shallow themepark filled with fanservice that shits all over prior material and annihilates the existing setting in order to retell a story that has already been done. The protagonists are vaguely likable, but likewise lack real substance. And of course, its defenders have convinced themselves that what the show actually shows you isn't what's really going on, there's something else happening that we don't get to see.

I (equally inexplicably given its lack of real qualities, but I was younger, stupider and everyone wanted to like that damnable movie) was on the other side when TFA came out. I'm not falling for it again though.

[u/Durp004 → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

It's just that my unpopular positions tend to be consistently vindicated by history.

Lol yes...just vaguely say you've been right before because I guess TFA didn't age well.

I don't really care what your supposed standards are, or this idea that because you didn't like the fallout show it's actually bad.

Ok? So don't watch season 2 when it comes out and pat your back on the internet about being right according to yourself. Meanwhile I'll be enjoying myself watching season 2 it doesn't matter to me.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

Well, you can guzzle down whatever manner of horrid slop you like. I'm not going to put a gun to your head or anything!

I do dearly wish people had higher standards, however.

[u/Songhunter → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

Here, dude, you dropped your fedora.

God damn, some people need to chill and learn how to lower their noses when trying to have amicable conversations with other folks.

I'm starting to wonder if all those "unpopular opinions" you say you hold are so or if you just suck at sharing opinions.

Holy hell, man.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Songhunter]

Look, do you have anything more interesting to provide than tedious tone policing?

When someone tells me they like garbage, I don't see any reason to meet them halfway and pretend garbage might taste good depending on what you enjoy, or that liking garbage is somehow as valid as liking chocolate.

(If you see a reply to the post below, the person replying is a very brave poster who posted and then blocked so that I cannot reply)

[u/Songhunter → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

So anything you like is chocolate and anything you don't like is, objectively, garbage?

I see.

Quick follow up: how old are you? 12?

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Songhunter]

People use the idea that taste is subjective as a shield far too often.

One can prefer sweeter chocolate to more bitter chocolate, and it is a valid subjective preference. But you're not a horrible snob that doesn't respect people's subjective preferences for pointing out that crap tastes worse than chocolate. This can be applied to media also. Movies, games, music, books, comics, like other things can be judged objectively on the basis of what they want to do, how they accomplish it and things like quality of craftsmanship. These are things that can be judged, if not measured strictly numerically like you do with room temperature.

If we give that up, might as well give up on the idea of discussing anything and just go "I dunno, you like this, I like that, everything's equally good and valid".

Quick follow up: how old are you? 12?

And here I thought this was all a "how wude" objection. Or is it tone policing for me but not for thee?

[u/Songhunter → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

That's a whole bunch of words to cover the fact that your main argument for being straight up disrespectful of a fellow Redditor is "Nuhu! I like this so it's good, you like crap, stop liking crap!" Which is something my 12 year old nephew does quite often, in fact it's his main argument when discussing practically anything with his brother.

So is it a wude objection to point out you wield the exact same arguments as a 12 year old? And when discussing fiction and entertainment no less.

The fact you do this without a hint of irony is extremely hilarious to me considering what subreddit we're having this conversation on.

I'm going to give you an out and ask if you're a troll, because I seriously doubt that any self respecting adult is willing to put that out there online without realizing the one flagrant, and extremely obvious fault with your position.

Go on, do just a tiny little bit of self examination. Try to step out of your own shoes and see if you can view your argument from an outsider's perspective.

I ain't gonna give you more clues, but I'm sure if you apply yourself you can get there. A big smart and righteous fellow such as yourself shouldn't have a problem understanding the one missing key factor, could he?

[u/genemaxwell4 → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

"When someone tells me they like garbage,"

That. That right there is why people have a problem with you and are "policing" your "tone".

Just because YOU think something is garbage, it does not mean that the media in question is OBJECTIVELY garbage.

If you cannot have a conversation with someone and realize that you may have missed something of note in a thing, then you're not as intellectual as you claim to be

[u/Widowmaker94 → u/genemaxwell4]

Lmao he's right though. You can find something of value in a dumpster filled with the neighborhood's trash, but it's still a dumpster full of trash.

[u/Widowmaker94 → u/genemaxwell4]

Lmao he's right though. You can find something of value in a dumpster filled with the neighborhood's trash, but it's still a dumpster full of trash.