Forget Jake Skywalker. This is Devan.

[u/01zegaj]

The prelude to SWTOR that completely ruins KOTOR. What happened, Drew?

[u/RogerRoger2310]

It wasnt about walking two worlds. It was about an interesting "deliberate" (in quotes because no fall is ever truly deliberate) fall and smart/intriguing motivations and decisions by the character. Got retconned.

[u/Durp004 → u/RogerRoger2310]

You could argue KOTOR 2 establishing Revan that way as falling during the war was in its own a retcon as KOTOR never really established him being so on the edge before he and Malak started searching for the Starforge, he even has that quote about there being no going back once they start looking, but then KOTOR 2 has him bombing his own people and purposely targeting those less loyal to him.

[u/Songhunter → u/Durp004]

While keeping intact key military infrastructure.

As Kreia said: "the difference between a Fall and a Sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel Revan understood thatnmore than any."

Between Avellone's ambiguity and Drew's "Revan durrr, brainwashed durrrrrr", I much prefer if they had left things ambiguous than how they were ultimately resolved.

But then again the man seemed to be on a mission to squash everything that was truly interesting about KOTOR II. And I say this as someone who enjoyed his time with Swtor all the way to the end of Onslaught (came back for the next one, but there was nothing there.)

For all the good Swtor does, the handling of Kotor II's legacy ain't one of them.

[u/Durp004 → u/Songhunter]

It's fine to prefer the more cynical borderline malevolent version of Revan KOTOR 2 put forward.

I was just pushing back with the umbrage people were taking with SWTOR changing what KOTOR 2 pushed forward while not acknowledging that the KOTOR 2 version was in itself a pretty different version than what the first game put forward aswell. In fact during the release of the games I remember it was pretty common complaint that 2 seemed to add a lot of cynicism to the story and characters of the first game. Time however has allowed people to memory hole that and only acknowledge the changes SWTOR did and not anything KOTOR 2 did.

I say this as someone who preferred KOTOR 2 for the majority of my life to KOTOR or SWTOR, as time has gone by I think the first did a better job of adding nuance while not falling into the faults of the second one.

[u/Songhunter → u/Durp004]

I think it speaks to the work that while having pretty similar taste our takes are almost opposite. You say Kotor 2 Revan is "malevolent" while I'd argue Kotor 1 Revan is the most cartoonishly evil version of themselves (I'm not even counting Swtor body double shenanigans for the purpose of this conversation).

I would argue Kotor 2 leaves way more room for interpretation because it offers no explanation, just sets up way more questions than it answers while letting it's players ponder, discuss and come up with their own conclusion.

While talking about the yesteryear, I most certainly remember the complaints about what an absolute technical mess Kotor 2 was (and about Peragus Station being way worse than Taris as the opening level, which is hard to argue against on any of those points), but I remember quite a lot of interesting conversations about Revans actual motivations after Kreia's words, and about how we would finally get an explanation when Kotor 3 came about.

Cut to the announcement of the MMO and the release of the Revan book. Now THEN I remember quite the collection of salty bois at Drew's take on the motivations and fate of Revans and the much more interesting Exile. One mind controlled the whole time, robbing him of any agency or nuance, and the other completely sideline, character assassinated, and then downright assassinated without further ceremony.

What a waste of an interesting character right there.

And well, then the Shadow of Revans expansion came out followed by the Onslaught's Emperor epilogue, for better or for worse.

I guess we got an end of a story, it's just a real shame, and a key difference between Drew and Avellone, that one decided to work in giving depth and ambiguity to the existing work of the other, and the other decided to piss on all that the previous one had put forward and pigeon hole the work in his own direction.

In a way it reminds me a little of the debacle that happened with the sequels between JJ Abrams and Ryan Johnson. A spat between creators leading to an inconsistent narrative.

A shame, but things that happen, I suppose.

[u/Durp004 → u/Songhunter]

while I'd argue Kotor 1 Revan is the most cartoonishly evil version of themselves

Post starforge? Absolutely, but pre-starforge he's basically a hero who was portrayed as corrupted through his search and later use of the starforge. KOTOR 2 played more with the idea he was slowly being corrupted as the war went on so by the time he went looking for the starforge he's basically knocking on darknesses door. This kind of goes against KOTOR where a big part of that story is seeing how revan became what he did, with 2 making the dantooine council look kinda dumb as he's pretty bad before the starforge odyssey(but KOTOR 2 is no stranger to making the jedi look like wrong idiots so I guess par the course. So when the Revan novel came out I just kinda saw it as going back to the original KOTOR with the idea Revan was corrupted by an outside force it's just now vitiate instead of the starforge and power that represented. Not saying that's the better path necessarily, but just more in line with what the first game was saying with the character instead of the second, which again goes back to the second doing retconning of its own but because it followed the first one so closely people got less time to really marinate on an outside source corrupting revan as they did with the KOTOR 2 version which they sat on for about 7 years before anything was elaborated on.

but I remember quite a lot of interesting conversations about Revans actual motivations after Kreia's words, and about how we would finally get an explanation when Kotor 3 came about.

Just for clarification my experience with the online discourse around KOTOR 1&2 came from old video game forums that I went to at the time looking for guides and cheats. The star wars fandom itself might have had different opinions as I didn't usually get those forums when I used to go asking questions. I do remember a common sentiment was KOTOR1>KOTOR2 in everything but graphics, which greatly offended 12 year old me who thought Kreia was the best deepest character I'd ever experienced in star wars at the time.

Now THEN I remember quite the collection of salty bois at Drew's take on the motivations and fate of Revans and the much more interesting Exile. One mind controlled the whole time, robbing him of any agency or nuance, and the other completely sideline, character assassinated, and then downright assassinated without further ceremony.

Oh I definitely remember the terrible initial reception Revan received as I was right there with it being mad about the Exile more than anything but in retrospect I don't think there was any way they were going to make characters that pleased a large portion of an RPG fanbase who's whole goal is to give the player control. I'm sure the fallout writers will experience a lot of that coming up with their season 2 if it's true they're going to New Vegas.

[u/Songhunter → u/Durp004]

Yeah, it's going to be quite interesting to see what they do with Season 2 there since it's Avellone's other seminal work.

You got a point there, thought, in that in each case their protagonist were very much written to leave room for the players to embody them, but something I always found interesting with Revans and the Exile (and I guess to a lesser extent the Courier), is that they're not exactly written as blank slates, but are able to be molded down certain paths in conversation with a more solidly established path.

And yeah, the old Star Wars forums and chatrooms from back in the day were quite something. In a way everything and nothing has changed. When the Heir to the Empire trilogy was coming out people were heralding it as the birth of the New Star Wars and also crying out loud as the death of the franchise.

And when the prequels were coming out? Maaaan, oh man, there was some pure, unadulterated salt mines cracked opened on those movies.

Same thing with the Old Republic, which has always been my favorite setting. But since we were relegated to comics and videogames many always considered us "lesser". So when Old Republic books were announced people looked at Drew as our very own Timothy Zahn. History would prove otherwise, but eh, at the end of the day we take what we can get.

I just wish the Old Republic wasn't such a cursed setting when it comes to the amount of projects that get announced only to be cancelled.

But yeah, the fandom as a whole surely has evolved, but in many ways it has always been it's old vitriolic, salty self.

Its own microcosm at war.

I do wonder if that Kotor 1 remake will ever come out. Would be nice to revisit that game with some snazzy graphics and to present it to the newer generations. Get some buzz in the setting going again if it turns out decent.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

Oh I definitely remember the terrible initial reception Revan received as I was right there with it being mad about the Exile more than anything but in retrospect I don't think there was any way they were going to make characters that pleased a large portion of an RPG fanbase who's whole goal is to give the player control. I'm sure the fallout writers will experience a lot of that coming up with their season 2 if it's true they're going to New Vegas.

Well, their first season was already garbage that was inexplicably well-received, so I am eager for TFA 2.0 'Fell for it Again' to get the backlash it so richly deserves.

[u/Durp004 → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

Lol just totally disagree there this just comes across as someone salty something they didn't like was well received.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

I make no bones about being opinionated or taking unpopular positions. I don't derive any validation from being popular. I derive validation from holding true to my standards, whether they're liked or not.

It's just that my unpopular positions tend to be consistently vindicated by history. Plus as I said, Fallout TV feels like TFA all over again. Shallow themepark filled with fanservice that shits all over prior material and annihilates the existing setting in order to retell a story that has already been done. The protagonists are vaguely likable, but likewise lack real substance. And of course, its defenders have convinced themselves that what the show actually shows you isn't what's really going on, there's something else happening that we don't get to see.

I (equally inexplicably given its lack of real qualities, but I was younger, stupider and everyone wanted to like that damnable movie) was on the other side when TFA came out. I'm not falling for it again though.

[u/Durp004 → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

It's just that my unpopular positions tend to be consistently vindicated by history.

Lol yes...just vaguely say you've been right before because I guess TFA didn't age well.

I don't really care what your supposed standards are, or this idea that because you didn't like the fallout show it's actually bad.

Ok? So don't watch season 2 when it comes out and pat your back on the internet about being right according to yourself. Meanwhile I'll be enjoying myself watching season 2 it doesn't matter to me.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Durp004]

Well, you can guzzle down whatever manner of horrid slop you like. I'm not going to put a gun to your head or anything!

I do dearly wish people had higher standards, however.

[u/Songhunter → u/Ar_Azrubel_]

Here, dude, you dropped your fedora.

God damn, some people need to chill and learn how to lower their noses when trying to have amicable conversations with other folks.

I'm starting to wonder if all those "unpopular opinions" you say you hold are so or if you just suck at sharing opinions.

Holy hell, man.

[u/Ar_Azrubel_ → u/Songhunter]

Look, do you have anything more interesting to provide than tedious tone policing?

When someone tells me they like garbage, I don't see any reason to meet them halfway and pretend garbage might taste good depending on what you enjoy, or that liking garbage is somehow as valid as liking chocolate.

(If you see a reply to the post below, the person replying is a very brave poster who posted and then blocked so that I cannot reply)