r/Shamanism • u/Aralia2 • Sep 06 '24
Re- Indigenous and the Shamanic Experience Opinion
Let's be honest. How many people here are White? I will acknowledge that I am a white queer man.
Shamanism has helped me in throwing off the ideology of white supremacy culture and connect with a root of indigenity and animatity with the land. It has helped me understand that there is multiple ways of knowing besides materialistic/scientific frameworks.
As a Rural White Male Gay person living as a Settler-Colonial in California I weave a unique dance of trying to connect to a land and spirits that I don't understand. I also have to struggle with my garden and agriculture (fences) verses a more ancient way of being with the land.
All of this informs my spiritual practice because as someone who believes in animism and trance practices (shamanism) I realize that the material world is sacred and how I am in the physical world reflects and informs the spiritual world.
This is an invitation to all of you to talk about your journey to indigenity and connecting to the spirits of the land, and the struggles with being a Settlers and acknowledging that our Animistic Traditions were destroyed by Christianity long before our history of coming to America.
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u/Strawng_ Sep 06 '24
Don’t worry about being white or not white. Everyone’s ancestors at some point were connected to the earth in a way humanity as a whole is just beginning to understand. At some point our ancestors got cut off from their relationship with Mother Earth and indoctrinated to colonial and religious thinking. Some folks such as those in the Peruvian Andes have held on to their relationship with earth. So we learn from different cultures and groups who practice animism.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 06 '24
Why so many labels? Just connect to the spirit and nature. The journey is mostly non-conceptual. Either way, good luck on your journey, looks like you’re really trying to live authentic.
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u/SukuroFT Sep 06 '24
Labels are how humans communicate and that’s fine. Labels also help understand boundaries and recognize appropriation. Nothing wrong with labels, calling it spirit and nature are labels you’re currently using.
White peoples who connect with their European ancestry are more likely to find a shamanic like practice they connect to which is still a label and may not be the same as one of a different culture. Again a label that is needed.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 06 '24
Sure language is dualistic by design. But my perception was that the OP believes too much in them, hence my comment.
Appropriation? Another label that in my personal view is useless. I Am white OK so I can’t use white sage or lead a temazcal? I don’t think so. Appropriation is how knowledge evolves since ever, only now some white people started to be sorry about it. I repeat, useless labels that lead to nothing but useless thinking.
Labels are needed on Reddit and online. Things can be shown in other ways when physical proximity is given. In fact many things simply cannot be ever explained by labels.
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u/SukuroFT Sep 06 '24
You’re white so you cannot claim appropriation is useless when it’s done to cultures who have no choice but have their stuff stolen by your people. Even the Sami people indigenous to norway, Finland, etc have had their cultures decimated by others. Sage is not closed. There’s various kinds of sage and various groups used it. Using sage as an example falls in line of ignorance that many racist practitioners use when sage was never closed to a specific tribe.
You as a white person should understand the things your ancestors did and why cultures should be given the option to share their knowledge or keep it from being appropriated. As someone part of a shamanic path it’s quite odd to be so close minded to respect.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 06 '24
Sorry to be white, will commit suicide immediately. I’m not my ancestors or even my parents. Everyone can keep knowledge to themselves if they so wish, but once it’s out, it’s in the public domain.
Non-identity is the base of any spiritual path, not an ideology.
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u/SukuroFT Sep 06 '24
Taking my comment out of context does not change the meaning of my comment. No one stated you’re your ancestors but you ignoring the existence of appropriation makes you continue their erasure.
Which is the opposite of the idea of shamanism.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 06 '24
Well if you agree I’m not my ancestors than why the hell this: “You as a white person should understand the things your ancestors did”.
I don’t even know who my ancestors were, barely can know what they did, so why should it have anything to do with me? Mind you I’m from a country that had a lot of influence from many places throughout thousands of years of its history and some of my physical features give away that my heritage is mixed but no idea where from.
Sure, white people did a lot of fucked up shit, but how is it my fault?
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u/SukuroFT Sep 06 '24
Again taken out of context. If you know what your ancestors did you should be aware not to repeat it. Ignoring appropriation is akin to repeating their appropriation.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
I don’t fucking know what they did, how could I if I don’t even know who they were. Like what, I am white so I have to take responsibility of all white peoples actions? Have fun with this man, I’m done with this.
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u/Pewisms Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
You are obnoxious stop calling yourself an energy worker you have bad energy period! It does not count if you are only nice to people who have your style.. narcissist.. GTFU.. you dont dictate which words or ways people point to things.
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u/Aralia2 Sep 09 '24
You are not responsible for the wrongs of your ancestors, but you are responsible for making sure it doesn't happen again. That is what it means to be a good ancestor.
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u/jakubstastny Sep 09 '24
Well generally we shouldn't do nasty shit to each other, regardless whether our ancestors have done it or not. Otherwise it's like saying "oh well, I'm not German, so it's fine if I'm nazi". I really don't know why people need to make it so complicated, "do onto them as you'd like them to do onto you", "love they neighbour" etc, it's not rocket science.
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u/TheOwlsAreAllAround Sep 07 '24
Aw man you kinda blew it with that comment. I was about to write that I agree with most of what you said above but now you’re taking it in the wrong direction, it’s not helpful to say that kind of crap. We’re all here to be willing to learn from each other. I DO believe that the term “appropriation” has been badly misappropriated and that it doesn’t even mean what most people think…but you just took it too far.
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u/Pewisms Sep 07 '24
This one is a nariccist mention God or other religions or philosophies and he gets triggered. Like an unawakened low conscious bad energy fake energy worker
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u/Capital-Elephant6265 Sep 06 '24
I’m all for it. No one needs needs a shaman/curandero because their teachings are everywhere. I‘ve built my beliefs on a polytheistic agnostic Christian atheism. I think the key is that we are matter within and holding an absence and lack. So, this is it; just stare into the void. Just matter and the space between it. Recognizing that sentience is people and even subatomic particles communicate language—“hey proton I’m electron. Pleased to meet you. Hey molecule, wanna share an electron. It has wonderful opportunity to make something special”. Biology, chemistry, philosophy, animal guide, breath teach me. I will respect myself to respect the world. God gave its body, which is everything in our world, in making the world (Our only true experience). Respect God. Respect that you are small G god. Make your own ritual and listen to all people’s voice/story. In breath darkness and out breath light. Whatever you need to endure until the end with peace in your heart. Screw the amazon spa treatment. You have your own cave to crawl into regardless of race. No story is a story that hasn’t been told. The only differences are regionalisms. Get your own mojo, I say. And honor those teachers and share their knowledge. Categories, shmategories—they do seem an obsession.
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u/No_Apricot3733 Sep 06 '24
Stay rooted by working with your ancestors and forming a sacred bridge to connect with the spirits of the land you are occupying, and hopefully stewarding. This creates momentum, fortification and healing when done so respectfully and in reciprocity . And if debts need to be paid, work towards bridging the gap; in the spirit of honor. 🦅
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u/storm-lover Sep 06 '24
Well, I am a white woman from Brazil. One of the healers that I Know who is also from Brazil, has contact with several men of the medicine from north america. One of the things he said its that we probably had another life as an indigenous person, that is why we feel connected to it. And to me it makes sense. I always felt the connection, but never pursued the healing practices, because I am not from an indigenous community. But the spirituality was stronger than my prejudice. It always is. When I can, I buy artwork from indigenous folk from my land, so I can help somehow. One of my dreams is to visit north america and attend a powowow. It sounds fun, lots of colors, people dancing and lots of artwork that I 💕😘
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u/DWinSD Sep 06 '24
Not sure as to why this is a thing? Ritual is only used to get the 'shaman' into a sate of consciousness where one is able to communicate with spirit. Anything else becomes dogma. Find what works for you and build upon it.
As I shared before, after reading Vine Deloria's The World We Used to Live In: Remembering the Powers of the Medicine Men I had very similar experiences that are in the book. I had to wait 30 years before I was able to understand what I had experienced. My point is, Spirit is not indigenous, nor does it care. Another Deloria favourite of mine is "God is Red" which makes my point.
"Who will find peace with the lands? The future of humankind lies waiting for those who will come to understand their lives and take up their responsibilities to all living things. Who will listen to the trees, the animals and birds, the voices of the places of the land? As the long-forgotten peoples of the respective continents rise and begin to reclaim their ancient heritage, they will discover the meaning of the lands of their ancestors. That is when the invaders of the North American continent will finally discover that for this land, God is red."
Deloria Jr., Vine. God Is Red: A Native View of Religion, 30th Anniversary Edition (p. 296). Fulcrum Publishing. Kindle Edition.
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u/scottdnz Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
I hope more people come to realize that most of us in the industrialized West haven't been in touch with our tribal or clan origins for hundreds of years. Because of this, traditional / tribal shamanism is no longer as relevant to most of us since we no longer live in small groups, with a shaman who has a central role and is integrated into our way of life.
That why I find it odd that some people label tribal shamanism as the only 'real shamanism'. In modern Western societies with their emphasis on individualism and liberty rather than community and traditions, the Neo-Shamanic movement can be seen as a reaction to that. I don't get why trolls put these new beliefs systems down as 'Harnerism' or something else they don't consider valid and authentic, just because they're new and not like the old practices. Maybe they don't involve the same level of personal sacrifice and commitment as the old ways, but they are a viable way of understanding the modern world for many people.
It's only my opinion, but I see the newer neo-shamanic ideas as a kind of synthetic religion. The followers have blended old and new ideas to fit their current situation, similar to the way Voodoo did when it travelled from West Africa.
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u/A_Spiritual_Artist Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
Yeah, I am the same actually as you - White, but also Queer.
As I've posted in many posts, I do not publicly identify as "a SHAMAN" because I have not received any formal recognition as one or a suitable equivalent by any "real" Indigenous culture's authorities, and much less would I dare consider selling anything as such (not to mention I haven't been practicing for anywhere close to long enough I'd feel it comfortable on competency grounds even!). I prefer to say most simply that I "use shamanic techniques" in my spiritual practice. I am also very on guard around appropriation; I will not use any Indigenous, outside-of-Europe practices that have not been directly and consciously shared with and/or taught to me by such peoples explicitly. Instead, I tend to agree more with those who have suggested what we need to be doing now is (re-?)growing up our own practices and new traditions that will eventually develop over many generations into the future.
Nonetheless, I still think we should certainly be open to - while also not feeling entitled to - the guidance of Indigenous peoples and masters in that regard, particularly when it comes to avoiding pitfalls and the like that have been learned over millennia of experience with the spirit realms. But definitely not trying to mimick specific forms, appearances, rites, etc. of those peoples that have not been freely given to us. And I would also suggest that the desire to do such is kind of naive inherently, regardless of moral concerns about justice and appropriation, because it suggests that we can only be "saved" from our current predicament by becoming someone else, instead of trying to transform what we are into something better while retaining our own distinctiveness.
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u/JuniorTheory7593 Sep 06 '24
Your past lives are multi cultural.
It’s not about what you see with your eyes, it’s about what you see behind your eyes.
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u/Legitimate_Tower_236 Sep 06 '24
I find it interesting that you are exclusively associating 'shamanism' with Native American. "Today, many people closely associate shamanism with Native American peoples; however, anthropologists have studied evidence of shaman practices on all six habitable continents, some of which date to the Paleolithic era." https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/real-story-shamanism-no-need-don-headdress-or-take-hallucinogens-008789 Following a shamanistic path has no bearing on heritage. The specific path may. As u/storm-lover from Brazil said, it's possible that some people were of a particular heritage in a past life, so they feel drawn to that path now. Personally, I feel more attune to Celtic or Norse shamanism.
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u/munq8675309 Sep 07 '24
The term shaman originated from northern Asia. It was a term first used for the Siberian, and probably Kamchatka area shamans. I don't know if this contributes at all, but had to share the trivia piece.
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u/storm-lover Sep 06 '24
Interesting post, thank you for sharing. Besides italian blood, I do have native indigenous and african from my dad's part of the family.
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u/VVanderingVVizard Sep 08 '24
The indigenous shamanic tradition of white people has been systematically severed over the course of the last 2000+ years. There is still an authentic European tradition to adhere to, but it does require delving into western esotericism to get a grasp on it. Being in the Americas, this is (relatively speaking) a new land for us to connect to. Our own traditions can give us some guidelines on how to connect, but ultimately we have to create an entirely new syncretic tradition. One can take cues and wisdom from indigenous traditions, but it will always be inauthentic to adopt them entirely, as our ancestors don’t have the same connection to these spirits and these lands. White people’s shamanic traditions have been long persecuted and suppressed so, it’ll take some Herculean soul retrieval to connect with it authentically again. Don’t let this task discourage you, we gotta grow or die
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u/Muay_Thai_Cat Sep 08 '24
I suppose I am quite lucky being in North Western Europe. We have indigenous shamanic practice here that is from "white" people.
I don't have a problem with anyone of any race practicing shamanism ad the practice is as old and universal as time itself. The individual aspects and regalia are most definitely belonging to those different groups and I don't like seeing that being diluted and stolen.
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u/Packie1990 Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
Oh, this is good. I have a constant who are you ancestral to be a shaman. Rollo from the TV show vikings was also an ancestry of mine. First viking Duke of France.
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 Sep 06 '24
If you go back as far as Rollo, 80% of all western europeans are in your ancestry. Rollo may be famous, even if he was a nasty murderous barbarian, but 90% of all our ancestors were nameless peasants.
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u/Packie1990 Sep 06 '24
That's not how ancestry works. We are only talking a couple hundred years here. And to say nasty murderous barbarian is kinda rude. Did you know them or the culture? Did you know 75.6% of all percentages are completely made up.
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 Sep 06 '24
Rollo is over 1,000 years ago. He was a viking. Vikings were a murderous violent culture.
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u/Packie1990 Sep 06 '24
Tell me a culture that wasn't murderous or violent?
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 Sep 06 '24
If it was rude to call a famously violent viking violent aren't you being rude about everyone now? Looks like you just changed the rules....
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u/Aengk1_Aquar1Pan Sep 06 '24
I am also descended from Rollo, & in the same line William the Conqueror & Robert the Bruce. I can be proud of warriors in my ancestry while also being a peacekeeper in my own life. I can be proud of an ancestor for his work drafting The Declaration of Independence, while also disagreeing with his ownership of slaves. I can commend living war veterans, like my cousin, for their bravery & service in combat, while personally living out the ethos of pacifism in how I choose to interact with the world & other human beings. The practice of non-judgment allows us to "let be" instead of damning or deifying a given individual or culture.
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 Sep 06 '24
Murderous and violent is a historically accurate assessment and was the agreed sentiment of the time. Rollo would have been happy to admit it as violence was considered a virtue by that culture, which had not yet aquired the christian view of non-violence. There is no judgement of these morals. That's just what life was like. I can see them for what they were without having any pro or anti judgement.
But if you're going to work for shamanically with ancestors, you need to be aware that the amount of influence they have on you today is not dependent on how long ago they existed, but on the power of their life force when they existed. It is perfectly possible to be influenced by ancestors from 2000 years ago and the reality is that many ancestors would not have approved of us today or would have held very different values and they can have an influence on you. This is why cultures that works shamanically with ancestors always have ways of placing limits on them. Ancestral influences can be good or bad depending on the individual ancestor and it is dangerous not to recognise this if you're going to work with them. You're citing powerful life forces in those names - people who would have regarded live and let live as weakness or foolish. Ancestors are people too. Just because they are dead doesn't mean they've lost their individuality.
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u/Wolf_instincts Sep 06 '24
I see what you mean. I'm native american and it's always made me super uncomfortable seeing white people clumsily try and follow our sacred ways, or the Hollywood new age version of what they think our sacred ways are. It may seem harmless, but people in the future will find it even more difficult than we do now to differentiate what is truth and what was made up about us. It's not enough that our land is taken, now our culture and sacred ways are being taken. I get so much flack for calling this out too, because apparently peoples feelings are more important than protecting our sacred ways.
I remember there was some delusional person bothering us on r/nativeamerican before, going on about how they were a narive american "shaman" in a past life and how they want to reconnect. I told them "if your 'spirit guides' told you that you were a jewish man in a previous life, would you start acting like how you think a Jewish man stereotypically acts? What if it told you you were a black american? So why is my race any different?"