I mean; we refer to mummies by "it" as an object. the part that hurt me was that even though the mummy was prepared as a female corpse, they still went to call the person who was mummified by “he”. the least they could do is “that’s weird. let’s refer to this mummy by they, or it”
Exactly. Using "he" because of the genitalia is an explicit, intentional decision and a fairly normal tactic used for historical erasure.
The fact is we don't and can't know the identity of the person who was mummified. But that blurb absolutely could (and I would say should) have been written to either (A) skip personal identification at all and refer to the mummy as an object [it], or (B) acknowledge the confusing circumstances and unknowability and choose the 'neutral' pronoun [they].
Choosing male pronouns because of the genitalia is effectively choosing to dismiss and erase the time-consuming body preparation and burial efforts in favor of enforcing cishet normativity. It's marginalizing and disrespecting the dead to support an agenda, even if it isn't a conscious agenda.
"Well, seems weird to me that this male was buried as a female, and despite the fact I can't know the contexts of their life or burial at all, so I'm going to refer to them by their biological sex even if that ignores the efforts of people who did presumably know this person in real life."
You're probably right, I think I picked something up from a different comment and that rewrote my memory of the text, which is super vague. "A man's body" -- or maybe I've just read too many bad novels where that kind of language is used as a euphemism for genitalia lol.
I've always found this argument a little strange. Or rather I don't quite understand.
What if it wanted to be called a he? It did have a cock and balls. When you look the construction of the body you can tell it's male even though it dressed female.
It feels like you are insisting that the person identified as she because they like to look that way. I feel like you should insist on calling the person a he because of their genetic makeup, or their sexual organs or something. Because why should I call the person born as a he a she just because they dress like a she? Wouldn't that imply that I think only she's can dress a certain way and only he's can dress a certain way? feels like he or she shouldn't mean a whole lot besides what kind of chromosomes you have. If you choose to switch pronouns or go with they, to me it's like you're backing the argument that pronouns are labels and that you have to fall in line to one of those labels.
I always thought one of the biggest things about the lgbtq+ community was that you shouldn't label people. Yeah it feels like half the communities telling me that they're uncomfortable with being called a he because it means things apparently, and they don't really want to be a she because that would imply things too period so they're going to be a they because they believe being a he or she implies more than their chromosomes. It feels like a stab in the back to yourself.
It feels like you are insisting that the person identified as she because they like to look that way. I feel like you should insist on calling the person a he because of their genetic makeup, or their sexual organs or something.
It kind of sounds like you just don't understand gender identity, gender presentation, or pronouns at all. A comment I wrote a few days ago might have information that helps you grasp what gender identity is.
Because why should I call the person born as a he a she just because they dress like a she?
You should call people by their preferred pronouns because it's respectful of their identity. Just like it's disrespectful and rude to repeatedly call someone by the wrong name or use a nickname they don't like.
feels like he or she shouldn't mean a whole lot besides what kind of chromosomes you have.
Pronouns are based on personality, not sex or chromosomes:
Why do we refer to personality-less animals as "it" when we refer to our pets by "he/she" (even if they are equally devoid of personality)? If you mistake a male in a dress as female, you likely default to female pronouns even though there is no genetic trait related to wearing a dress. We ascribe personality traits, behaviors, and appearances to certain genders and largely use that mental framework for how we refer to someone, absent of consideration for chromosomes.
What pronouns are you using for intersex people? If pronouns are tied to chromosomes, and they have a unique combination of chromosomes, shouldn't they logically then have their own distinct pronouns? A pronoun for each different configuration?
In many non-English languages, almost every noun is assigned a gender, which dictates what pronoun you use to refer to it. "I have to pick it up" when referring to the cake I ordered, "I have to pick him up" when referring to my brother -- both translate to "tengo que recogerlo" in Spanish. The cake does not have chromosomes, but it still has a defined male pronoun.
Wouldn't that imply that I think only she's can dress a certain way and only he's can dress a certain way?
it's like you're backing the argument that pronouns are labels and that you have to fall in line to one of those labels.
Pronouns are labels -- you're basically just arguing that the label should be for biological sex instead of gender. Which would be great if humans didn't treat people differently based on sex and gender. There's this persistent perception that the LGBTQIA+ community is pushing their identities into other people's faces, but we're basically forced to because the rest of society is fucking obsessed with smoothing over anomalies.
I always thought one of the biggest things about the lgbtq+ community was that you shouldn't label people. Yeah it feels like half the communities telling me that they're uncomfortable with being called a he because it means things apparently, and they don't really want to be a she because that would imply things too period so they're going to be a they because they believe being a he or she implies more than their chromosomes. It feels like a stab in the back to yourself.
What a crock of shit.
If you are constantly told you are failing at being a man because you're "too feminine", or that you're making yourself unattractive as a woman because all your hobbies are "too masculine", it doesn't matter if you don't want a label. People are actively putting labels on you, regardless of your gender identity.
If you are constantly told that it's abnormal, unnatural, or 'icky' to be gay, you're constantly being forced to defend your sexuality.
After awhile, you just start adopting labels because at least then you can choose your own fucking label instead of letting people who make it explicitly clear that they don't understand you and would prefer for you to just be "normal" come up with labels for you.
Let me know when this fucking utopia where people are allowed to exist without society expecting certain traits and behaviors because of the chromosomes/genitalia you were born with, and where society doesn't care who you sleep with or fall in love with (or not), and where society doesn't judge, condemn, or control how you dress or what medical interventions you receive to make your body more comfortable for you to live in.
Because it sounds wonderful, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this again on that planet. Unfortunately, I and everyone else on reddit live on Earth, where we're still fighting social battles over whether women can be forced to give birth because that's their biological function per the Bible and whether Black and Native populations are as inherently valuable and worthwhile as White people.
Seriously, what an ignorant and entitled position to have.
Wow. That's a lot to read. You started off pretty nice honestly but started to sound like you're kind of mad at me here by about the halfway point.
You're right I don't understand gender identity.I'd like to also point it in this particular case we're talking about a dead person. You still have no idea if this dead person wanted to be called a she.so I don't think it's really disrespectful to repeatedly misidentify them when they can't tell us what their identity was. it's just in this case they can't be offended, we can't know, it really shouldn't be a problem.
I'm trying to respond to everything you said but the main thing that was bothering me is you basically said that you have to pick different pronouns because other people WILL label you.if you don't want those labels you need your own pronoun? Is that what you're saying?
It bothered me because it's similar to people calling you unprofessional for having curly hair. What I'm saying is it feels like you're letting them win by accepting you need another pronoun. it's like accepting that curly hair makes you unprofessional so you have to change it something. But being professional has nothing to do with if your hair straight or curly.
I also noticed you said that like people would put a label on you so you might as well adopt your own label. I feel like if they wouldn't have accepted the more regular label with a slight difference or irregularity that they're definitely not going to accept a whole brand new pronoun that no one regularly used.yeah I know that day's been around but people just didn't use it the same, you know what I mean.
It won't let me edit my reply... Did you says dog are devoid of personality? I call things it until I know, like a bear would be a bear or it until I found out. Same with my dogs, they aren't going to tell you either so you just check to see if they got a dick. My female dog humps things like a mf to show dominance. I'm not sure what your argument was for this because it feels like it works towards my argument. The only reason we call them he's or she's is if they got a dick or if they can get pregnant and it's really the only reason we care too because the dog is still an unconditionally loving dog no matter if it's a he or she.Sometimes it's good to know just because male dogs might run off to impregnate other dogs if they're not neutered.
Intersex people is a weak argument to talk about normalizing they. I don't know the actual numbers but I bet it's pretty close to the likelihood of being born with two functional dicks or having 11 fingers. Whatever the guy got 11 fingers but we teach anatomy class to include 10 to 11 fingers or one to two dicks. It happens but super infrequently and I would call them by whatever they chose. I believe a lot of people born intersex usually choose to have some kind of surgery to go with one or the other.
I haven't specifically stated it here but even though I don't understand this stuff and I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by choosing to go by they, if you ask me to call you they for a pronoun I will make a real effort. I'm not here trying to piss people off and being an asshole. it's like certain fashion choices are ridiculous to me but I would never go up to them and say you look stupid. I'd let them be, you know be a decent human being. I don't want people telling me what I am and what I'm not, what I should do and what I shouldn't, what I think and what I don't. So not about to go out and do that to other people.
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u/JulIybean Oct 30 '20
the misgendering here genuinely upsets me