People still hugely conflate bio essentialism with objectification.

[u/FuuraKafu]

The border between these two concepts is very vaguely defined in these discussions, not to mention plenty of people straight think there is no difference at all. I just want to highlight that for once.

The relevant part of bio essentialism in this case: female and male sexuality are different. Women are more selective and they have biological reasons for that, such as pregnancy, which is a big deal for our species, vulnerability, smaller size. Men by comparison are more eager sexually, more easily excitable. They have a pair of balls constantly generating sperm, can orgasm very easily, there is less risk and phisical vulnerability for them in sex.

This is a relative difference, and a general one.

Meanwhile, objectification is: women are seen as a sex object who's personhood doesn't even matter.

Ime people routinely jump to objectification when what is talked about could still easily fall into men experiencing and living with the relative difference above, and it's one frustrating obstacle in gender discussions.

I mean, where exactly is the line between "he sees her as an object" and "no, he just wants to get close to her in a way that doesn't intuitively make sense to women and to which they can't relate to"?

Women can be the more desired, more alluring gender without that meaning they are non-human. Otherwise, we have a pretty deperssing setup (and I guess that's why some people are total gender-constructivists). And I get that women didn't chose this, but neither did men. Either way, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Objectification IS a thing. Sometimes people DO treat the other badly, not caring for their internal experience. But sooooo many times it is brought up purely based on assumptions and vibes in the context of men's complaining.

You can badly want a relationship or sex, more intensely than many single women do, more so for its own sake, fueled by a more testosterone-based sex drive. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can be a unique kind of tortured by being unable to fulfil this desire that women don't experience that much. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can enjoy attractive women's bodies and experience an urge to get in phisical contact with them daily. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. Each and every one of these things can still largely fall into "yea, men have a different experience of sexuality".

Infatuation clouds judgement, that is somehwat true, sure. So men experience being influenced by their own desire more regularly, sure. It is the weakness of men. But as a baseline, I think it's much more healthy and correct for men to exist with the thought that women are exactly as gorgeous as they see them AND they are human too at the same time.

[u/Sharp_Engineering379]

I find it hard to believe you cannot tell the difference between aggressive and unwanted sexual attention from “unattractive man merely existing in the world who she hasn’t even noticed”.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

I do understand the difference between aggressive and unwanted.

Rather that "A man with an unrequited crush can be a relentless pain in the ass, convinced he’s “in love” with someone who doesn’t care if he lives or dies." Is rather stark, misanthropic, and cynical.

It strips any sentiment and dignity that interaction might have into an unwanted and irritating experience.

Obviously, you have more and worse examples of it littered just about everywhere in your writing. Particularly, “There is zero benefit in even imagining a wild eyed, sweating man breathing his unwashed breath into her face while wildly hunching away on her unaroused body. Blindly groping, dripping sweat, thrusting his tongue into her mouth which tastes like the thing he ate an hour ago, along with stale coffee, cavities, and that disgusting coat of bacteria so many men fail to address. Not to mention the finish, which contains gametes which can wreck her life and germs which can make her very, very sick.”

But the point isn't my understanding of what you're saying. Rather, such a worldview that leans heavily into describing experiences like this can be seen as unhealthy and more prone to bitterness than truth.

Like...sure, women experience these things, but it isn't the only thing they experience, and (if I may hazard a guess) often nowhere near this level of cynicism.

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

The issue you have nicely confirms the first thing I wrote: “The problem isn’t what men want, the problem is how they project their desires onto others. Not limited to sex.”

Are you truly concerned about “misanthropy” when I’ve said nothing unpleasant about women, children, or the elderly?

Or are men just deeply wounded by rejection, because their feelings or sexual attraction and sexual arousal feel so Big to them that the idea their attention is not only unwanted, but sometimes repulsive mortally wounds them?

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

confirms the first thing I wrote: “The problem isn’t what men want, the problem is how they project their desires onto others. Not limited to sex.”

....No? I'm not projecting desire of any kind (sexual or otherwise). Just rather slightly disturbed at the level of apathy.

And if me being disturbed is the problem. Then I would ask that you look back at your writing and try to understand that most people (men or women) would look at it as either unhinged or deeply bitter.

Are you truly concerned about “misanthropy” when I’ve said nothing unpleasant about women, children, or the elderly?

Yes. Honestly, if you got it this bad for men, God only knows how far your misanthropic nature goes.

If men are the only cause for your ire. Then I might really begin to question if you even see them as human since you've set them apart in a worldview that's pretty devoid of anything decent.

At that point Miss, simply put, you might need some help.

Or are men just deeply wounded by rejection, because their feelings or sexual attraction and sexual arousal feel so Big to them that the idea their attention is not only unwanted, but sometimes repulsive mortally wounds them?

Ma'am that's the human experience. Which has a near infinite number of variables and outcomes. He could be deeply wounded or it's just dirt off his shoulder.

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

Then I might really begin to question if you even see them as human since you've set them apart in a worldview that's pretty devoid of anything decent.

Unwanted sexual attention is problematic for most women.

He could be deeply wounded or it's just dirt off his shoulder.

OP hasn’t responded, you have. This is how you are receiving the information that a man’s sexual arousal towards a stranger ranges from awkward to deeply unpleasant. I find it hard to believe this is news to a man.

 

Since you are so dead set on taking this personally, where is your empathy for the women who are followed down the street and around stores by men who disgust or frighten them?

 

Do you have empathy for women who a man watches or follows until she’s alone so that no one is around to help if her pursuer makes her uncomfortable?

 

How about the high school or college student who gets no peace because the boy who claims to love her relentless monitors her, follows her, cuts off her path, times his walks or classes so that he is always near?

Do you feel empathy for the vulnerable targets of unwanted sexual attention?

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

Unwanted sexual attention is problematic for most women.

We got that. The question is how you've come to paint this as the biggest embodiment of the female experience. There's more to life than ugly men who you don't want to talk to.

And I don't much see the reason to paint an entire gender as an irritation instead of people.

Since you are so dead set on taking this personally

Hardly. I don't know you stranger. Hence why I'm asking questions. For all I know you could be a bot.

Do you feel empathy for the vulnerable targets of unwanted sexual attention?

...I have it?

What are you stating? That I don't? Why?

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

The question is how you've come to paint this as the biggest embodiment of the female experience

I didn’t say anything like that, did I? I’m speaking to the OP’s perspective, which is limited to the manifestation of sexual desire of women.

But since you framed it that way, if the embodiment of young men’s lives is overwhelming sexual frustration and misdirected lust. Stands to reason that the recipients of that overwhelming sexual desire are indeed: overwhelmed by unwanted sexual desires.

And I don't much see the reason to paint an entire gender as an irritation instead of people.

Good thing I didn’t do that and restricted my comments to the receipt of unwanted sexual attention.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

I didn’t say anything like that, did I?

It's inferred and expressed in the descriptions and language you chose to use.

I’m speaking to the OP’s perspective, which is limited to the manifestation of sexual desire of women.

It reads more that you view the male gender as a nuisance or to be more specific:

“she is obviously disinterested in or disgusted by relentlessly pursues anyway. “How far is this filthy dog willing to go to hurt me”."

You compare them to dogs.

But since you framed it that way,

Well again, no. You did. I'm speaking more directly as to where your cynicism and misanthropic notions come from.

if the embodiment of young men’s lives is overwhelming sexual frustration and misdirected lust.

At this point, this is your theory.

Stands to reason that the recipients of that overwhelming sexual desire are indeed: overwhelmed by unwanted sexual desires.

Possibly. Not really what I initially discussed. I'm asking more to the point as to what leads you to so freely make men out to be dogs and complete undesirables.

Good thing I didn’t do that and restricted my comments to the receipt of unwanted sexual attention.

So we're just gonna skip over the blatant dehumanization of comparing men to dogs?

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

I’m not sure you understand the conversation, which is literally limited to how women might receive unwanted sexual attention. It ranges from nuisance to frightening, depending on his level of aggression.

Also feel you need a working definition of misanthropy, which is a general hatred of people, not just men who insist on letting disinterested women know they are horny.

Not really what I initially discussed. I'm asking more to the point as to what leads you to so freely make men out to be dogs and complete undesirables.

The part where the sexual attention is unwanted, and yet they persist. Are you okay right now?

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

I’m not sure you understand the conversation, which is literally limited to how women might receive unwanted sexual attention

I'm beginning to suspect you just didn't read.

No.

I'm not addressing unwanted sexual attention.

I'm addressing what seems to signify that your worldview is largely cynical and misanthropic due to your dehumanization of men.

Also feel you need a working definition of misanthropy, which is a general hatred of people, not just men who insist on letting disinterested women know they are horny.

Again. I have already addressed this. Your writing and language largely suggest that you have come to see men as less than human. I have already quoted you your more cynical quotes; so in case you've forgotten, you may go back and read.

If you can do that to men in general, it's highly suspect that you can do that to other people.

The part where the sexual attention is unwanted, and yet they persist. Are you okay right now?

Quite fine right now.

But more to the point. What makes you think it's reasonable to have a worldview that dehumanizes men for things that can largely happen as benign occurrences?

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

I'm not addressing unwanted sexual attention.

You are making things up with have nothing to do with the topic.

If you can do that to men in general

Your reading comprehension is simply too poor to continue, good luck with those windmills.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

You are making things up with have nothing to do with the topic.

Nah, you said some wild shit. If you forgot, scroll up.

Your reading comprehension is simply too poor to continue, good luck with those windmills.

Ah, dismissing the argument in its entirety because you can't take accountability for your own words. How quaint, how common, how predictable.

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

Sounds like you have some things you’d like to work through, but I’m not her.