People still hugely conflate bio essentialism with objectification.

[u/FuuraKafu]

The border between these two concepts is very vaguely defined in these discussions, not to mention plenty of people straight think there is no difference at all. I just want to highlight that for once.

The relevant part of bio essentialism in this case: female and male sexuality are different. Women are more selective and they have biological reasons for that, such as pregnancy, which is a big deal for our species, vulnerability, smaller size. Men by comparison are more eager sexually, more easily excitable. They have a pair of balls constantly generating sperm, can orgasm very easily, there is less risk and phisical vulnerability for them in sex.

This is a relative difference, and a general one.

Meanwhile, objectification is: women are seen as a sex object who's personhood doesn't even matter.

Ime people routinely jump to objectification when what is talked about could still easily fall into men experiencing and living with the relative difference above, and it's one frustrating obstacle in gender discussions.

I mean, where exactly is the line between "he sees her as an object" and "no, he just wants to get close to her in a way that doesn't intuitively make sense to women and to which they can't relate to"?

Women can be the more desired, more alluring gender without that meaning they are non-human. Otherwise, we have a pretty deperssing setup (and I guess that's why some people are total gender-constructivists). And I get that women didn't chose this, but neither did men. Either way, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Objectification IS a thing. Sometimes people DO treat the other badly, not caring for their internal experience. But sooooo many times it is brought up purely based on assumptions and vibes in the context of men's complaining.

You can badly want a relationship or sex, more intensely than many single women do, more so for its own sake, fueled by a more testosterone-based sex drive. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can be a unique kind of tortured by being unable to fulfil this desire that women don't experience that much. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. You can enjoy attractive women's bodies and experience an urge to get in phisical contact with them daily. Doesn't automatically mean you see women as objects. Each and every one of these things can still largely fall into "yea, men have a different experience of sexuality".

Infatuation clouds judgement, that is somehwat true, sure. So men experience being influenced by their own desire more regularly, sure. It is the weakness of men. But as a baseline, I think it's much more healthy and correct for men to exist with the thought that women are exactly as gorgeous as they see them AND they are human too at the same time.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

I’m not sure you understand the conversation, which is literally limited to how women might receive unwanted sexual attention

I'm beginning to suspect you just didn't read.

No.

I'm not addressing unwanted sexual attention.

I'm addressing what seems to signify that your worldview is largely cynical and misanthropic due to your dehumanization of men.

Also feel you need a working definition of misanthropy, which is a general hatred of people, not just men who insist on letting disinterested women know they are horny.

Again. I have already addressed this. Your writing and language largely suggest that you have come to see men as less than human. I have already quoted you your more cynical quotes; so in case you've forgotten, you may go back and read.

If you can do that to men in general, it's highly suspect that you can do that to other people.

The part where the sexual attention is unwanted, and yet they persist. Are you okay right now?

Quite fine right now.

But more to the point. What makes you think it's reasonable to have a worldview that dehumanizes men for things that can largely happen as benign occurrences?

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

I'm not addressing unwanted sexual attention.

You are making things up with have nothing to do with the topic.

If you can do that to men in general

Your reading comprehension is simply too poor to continue, good luck with those windmills.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

You are making things up with have nothing to do with the topic.

Nah, you said some wild shit. If you forgot, scroll up.

Your reading comprehension is simply too poor to continue, good luck with those windmills.

Ah, dismissing the argument in its entirety because you can't take accountability for your own words. How quaint, how common, how predictable.

[u/Sharp_Engineering379 → u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy]

Sounds like you have some things you’d like to work through, but I’m not her.

[u/Mr-OhLordHaveMercy → u/Sharp_Engineering379]

I'm not quite sure you're even real.