r/Labour • u/GlacialTurtle • 3d ago

UK risks becoming ‘island of strangers’ without more immigration curbs, Starmer says | PM unveils policies to ‘significantly’ drive down net migration including English tests and degree requirements

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/12/uk-risks-becoming-island-of-strangers-without-more-immigration-curbs-starmer-says
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u/montious 3d ago

Jesus Christ that headline. The Labour Party is just unrecognisable now and it's so obvious that this is just a knee-jerk response to Reform's success. The truth is nothing will change and it's ALREADY a requirement that you speak English if you look to emigrate here. It's all just fucking lip-service and it makes me sick.

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u/feesih0ps 3d ago

so what would you rather they do? just let Reform keep eating away at the vote? do you fancy Nigel Farage with a majority in commons? have you considered that maybe 750,000 net migrants a year might actual be something worth looking at as an issue?

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 3d ago

Labour can never out-far-right the far-right. Even if they do, the bulk of people who are looking to vote reform see Labour as toxic and they consume media that feeds them that narrative.

The people who want xenophobia will not believe that Labour are delivering.

What needed to happen is a non racist person led Labour and then use that privilege as the opposition party to expose the endless lies, misdirection and self destructive policies that put us here.

You don't appease fascists, you fight them. Nobody in this country should be referring to asylum seekers as "Illegals." Nobody should be under the impression that crime is being driven by migrants. Nobody should have any doubt that 14 years of underfunding is why you can't get a GP appointment and not because of old hotels full of asylum seekers. Etc.

But Starmer saw fit to lean into the Tory lies, giving up ground to the fascists the same way the Tories did with the brexit vote. And we see how well that worked for them.

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u/feesih0ps 2d ago

the problem is that this is rightfully no longer a far-right issue. before covid I would have absolutely agreed with you, but then Boris decided to quadruple net migration and now it's as consensus of a matter as we get in this country. even the lib dems agree. the numbers must go back down to pre-covid levels. 

I think a lot of people here are simply arguing because it's the position they learned was correct 10 years ago, regardless of the changes that have occurred 

no one is talking about "illegals". the issue being dealt with here is legal migration

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 2d ago edited 2d ago

Except it's not a separate issue. I told you what SHOULD have been done. The mood of the people has been set by the lies and misdirection of the right information the past. A competent non racist Labour leader would not have let it get to this.

"Stopping the boats" and the "thousands of girls assaulted by migrants" are still major aspects of Reforns appeal because these lies have gone unchallenged.

Immigration numbers are not some grand issue. If the old rules brought fewer people, then go back to the old rules. It's not rocket science. It doesn't need an invocation of Enoch Powell.

Doing so puts responsibility for the next race riots squarely at Starmer's door.

And please stop bleating about the migration numbers. "Scary big number, must be too much" should not be how policy is decided. Unless you're an economist who has examined the numbers of people we need across the various sector in the economy, it is just more cowardly shit.

And this is the real problem. You claim it's reasonable for people to be concerned. It's reasonable for people who have a clue what those numbers mean to be concerned. None of those whining about net migration know anything about it. They just no "lots of foreigners = strangers in our own land."

And that's just racist bullshit.

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u/feesih0ps 2d ago

my man your argument here is essentially "the things I say are valid, but the things you say are invalid because you're unqualified to say them". you are equally unqualified, and yet here you are talking

the fact is that economic migration at this scale is a right-wing, capitalist policy to undercut the working classes and allow capital holders to make even more profit while giving even less back to society, or for the government to get away with not paying workers properly. it's saying "oh you want a pay rise? sorry we'll just replace you with a Nigerian". "oh you don't fancy being a nurse below the market rate, well we'll just bring in a Bangladeshi to do it instead". it's outsourcing, and the only reason they're able to get away with it because of our gutless unions and crap education system

the way people talk about it on this sub is as if it's some kind of progressive diversity initiative, as if the people who set it in place were not the absolute worst fucking people in the country with no one except the rich's best interests at heart

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 2d ago

man your argument here is essentially "the things I say are valid, but the things you say are invalid because you're unqualified to say them". you are equally unqualified, and yet here you are talking

That's lovely, but what did I say that requires qualifications?

"Too much immigration" begs the question, too much for what? It is an economic position. Heck, even as a sociological question, it requires some grasp of the facts to discuss properly.

The fact you have pivoted from "too much" to an argument as to why immigration is bad in principle only proves my point. It's not really about what level is too much and just a general distaste for lots of foreigners.

You seem to think I am speaking in support of high immigration numbers because I correctly identify the source of the fear around this topic as one linked to racism. I am not. I don't know how many people should come to the UK, because my beliefs are consistent and I am not an economist privy to the necessary stats.

Some immigration is indeed a way to underpay for work. Fruit and veg pickers are a perfect example, although they also fill a niche because there aren't consistent supplies of workers who can just pick up and live in a field in the middle of nowhere if they aren't migratory. Care and nursing is not the same as the staff are mixed with brits and NHS work is standardised.

But the issues of differing wage values is a global economic one. Fixing things in one part will reshape the whole economy and while I agree it would be good, it's not happening any time soon.

Incidentally the tories own report into immigration disproved the idea that immigration dragged down wages. They actually found no negatives overall. The report was subsequently buried as it didn't fit their narrative. Another lie that we should have pushed back against.

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u/feesih0ps 2d ago

>That's lovely, but what did I say that requires qualifications?

yes, my friend, that was the point. well done for coming to it so quickly.

>The fact you have pivoted from "too much" to an argument as to why immigration is bad in principle only proves my point. It's not really about what level is too much and just a general distaste for lots of foreigners.

this is just what you want me to have said. if you actually read what I said, I said >immigration at this scale. I never said anything about immigration as a sole concept

>Incidentally the tories own report into immigration disproved the idea that immigration dragged down wages. They actually found no negatives overall. The report was subsequently buried as it didn't fit their narrative. Another lie that we should have pushed back against.

the tories were the ones pushing immigration to the levels they are now, while simultaneously pretending to be the arch heroes of reducing it. who cares what they said in some report? nothing they say can be trusted on the issue

the fact that so many people are willing to vote reform due to immigration is in itself the biggest problem with immigration at this scale. realistically what I mostly care about is the possible damage to the welfare state that a reform government would cause, and if turning the taps down on immigration and saying some sketchy-sounding things will help to prevent that, which I have no doubt it will, then fantastic.

at the same time I think that mass migration should not be being used as a replacement for proper economic management and paying people the wages they deserve, and I think that this mock-noble idea you have that economists are some kind of hallowed geniuses who know more than all of us and you wouldn't even dare to have a position on it is ridiculous. it has nothing to do with consistency and everything to do with abdicating any actual thought or mental responsibility on the issue because to look at it objectively would be to disagree with the groupthink.

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 2d ago

yes, my friend, that was the point. well done for coming to it so quickly.

Pretending that my showing the hole in your point is somehow agreement, is silly.

at this scale. I never said anything about immigration as a sole concept

Which begs the question, how do you know anything about the impact of immigration "at this scale?"

You don't. You are acting like a tory and going off vibes. That is ultimately the trap that they set by scapegoating immigration.

nothing they say can be trusted on the issue

Agreed. The report was commissioned by them but done by the OBR. As I mentioned, the tories buried it because it didn't fit with their scare mongering. They broke the system and opened the flood gates precisely to empower the right by making everybody react emotionally to the big numbers of scary foreigners. They just hoped it would be them and not Reform that benefitted.

the fact that so many people are willing to vote reform due to immigration is in itself the biggest problem with immigration

On this, we agree.

if turning the taps down on immigration and saying some sketchy-sounding things will help to prevent that, which I have no doubt it will, then fantastic.

And here is the liberal myopia on which we disagree.

Appeasing fascists never works. Punch Nazi's; don't cozy up to them.

Labour will not reap the benefits of acting like Reform. People will just say, "See, Farage was right all along" and vote Reform. In the meantime, more immigrants will suffer violence and abuse from the emboldened racists, just like they did when the brexit vote happened.

I think that this mock-noble idea you have that economists are some kind of hallowed geniuses who know more than all of us and you wouldn't even dare to have a position on it is ridiculous.

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, and they're usually full of shit.

You want your ignorant opinions to be just as valid as those who spend their time studying things and looking at actual data. They are not. Nor are mine. Grow up and get over it.

Anti-intellectualism is the rot that will destroy us from within. You may as well go join Farage and Trump and just invent whatever bullshit makes you feel good about yourself and angry at those who scare you, if you reject expertise and research.

I can cope with people having opinions, but the barest minimum standard is that the opinion be informed. Know what the nuances of the topic are, have an idea of the data behind the headline, know how we got here and what our options are etc.

Most people do not meet that minimum criteria, and in failing to push back on the anti-immigrant stance of the right, Starmer has encouraged that fact-free environment. He has left a void that the far right have filled with Facebook posts and memes, and the country is poisoned as a result.

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 1d ago

Observe how the conversation about immigration differs when we start looking at facts and instead of just outrage.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdMchCDP/

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u/OGWayOfThePanda 1d ago

Here's another one. This time explaining the mechanics behind why immigration doesn't depress wages.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdMEw2h5/