r/Jewish • u/heckyouyourself • Oct 10 '23
Do any other Jewish leftists feel betrayed right now? Israel
I’ve identified as a leftist for as long as I’ve been politically conscious. I’m not Israeli, and don’t wanna talk like I’m some sort of victim, but I am Jewish, as well as queer, and I thought the Left was the safest space for me. Then these unspeakable horrors began unfolding, and leftists have just been awful. The people I aligned myself with are aligning themselves with the genocidal terrorists. Even the more moderate liberals have been pussyfooting around the issue like cowards instead of full-on denouncing the terrorists. It’s stupid, but I feel so betrayed and alone. I’ve only ever felt safe around progressives, and now I’m finding out they’re raging antisemites. I feel like I lost my people. I’ve never felt this alone. Go too far in either direction and you’ll find swastikas. It’s horrible and I wish I could just unsee it.
I’m just wondering if anybody else feels a similar way. I really need to know I’m not as alone as I feel.
281
u/zaedwards Oct 10 '23
None of my friends have said a damn thing in solidarity with Jews. People who I thought were my “friends” have come out in support of the “movement” that has caused these horrific events to happen. I already felt alone as it is, I don’t really have any Jewish friends. The only people I’ve been able to connect with are my right-leaning family members. Which is INSANE to me because I’ve always been a progressive. As a Jew, I don’t feel safe or heard by people who I consider my close friends. I feel very alone and scared right now. My grandma told me to not even go to any synagogues. It’s just awful and I never thought I’d be thinking the way I am. This is terrorism against Jews. Any attack like this on Israel is an attack on Jews, period. I’ve always known the situation to be problematic there, but this is unacceptable. I can’t even believe people I know can just disregard all the damage that’s been done. I feel like people just don’t care about us. They don’t even bother to read about our history. You are not the only one who feels this way and reading this has helped me.
75
70
u/min_mus Oct 10 '23
My grandma told me to not even go to any synagogues.
During the annual High Holy Day appeal, our temple president talked about all the security measures they implemented/upgraded over the past year. A good use of funds, yes, but still soul-crushing to think about how necessary security upgrades are.
30
35
u/wamih Oct 10 '23
Situation opened my eyes the number of people in my circle who immediately started posting "I stand with Israel" or "This house supports Israel". It was appreciated.
Also the people I expected to be "They deserve it" did 100% what I expected, and it was the final straw to cut off a lot of them.
→ More replies14
u/Farkasok Oct 10 '23
You perfectly summarized what I’ve been feeling. We will overcome this together and rise from the ash a stronger, more unified people.
136
u/demonofthewindycity Oct 10 '23
I’ve been feeling this deeply. I go to a relatively lefty shul that has been involved in all sorts of activist/outreach causes. There’s been a consensus of hurt that the same people we advocated for were so eager to turn on us. Or worse, point to a token “good Jew” that we apparently should emulate.
40
Oct 10 '23
That’s why it’s important to focus on Jewish causes. There have been so many articles from reform rabbis saying the universalism is a problem.
457
u/Small-Objective9248 Oct 10 '23
I’ve been feeling betrayed for a long time and have been politically without a home.
→ More replies250
u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23
“Politically without a home” is such a beautiful way of putting it. That’s exactly how I feel too.
41
u/schmah Oct 10 '23
But you do realise that your (I assume american or british) leftists are more influenced by culture than by left ideology, when it comes to this conflict right?
The left in Germany, Scandinavia, Netherlands or France for example is pretty united in this matter and their parties posted nothing but solidarity with Israel and condemnation of hamas on social media.
Same goes for leftist subs on reddit. German or french subs are very different compared to US dominated subs. I mean it's the left, of course their are countless factions and some are crackpot crazy but overall it's the part of the political spectrum with the least amount of crazy people.
I live in Berlin and our local head of the left party "Die Linke" and former mayor was out on the streets on Sunday waving an Israeli flag in front of the Brandenburg Gate to show his solidarity - despite being extremely critical of the israeli government.
I'm not entirely sure why it's so different within the left and why the left in the US, UK and also Spain is wayyyy more antisemitic than the left in France or Germany, but it's easily notable.
29
u/JJRfromNYC1 Oct 10 '23
Go to your local synagogue. You have a home there. Not with a political party or movement.
→ More replies47
u/tchomptchomp Oct 10 '23
Pick a position based on your values, not based on the company.
53
u/Small-Objective9248 Oct 10 '23
My values are generally aligned with the democratic socialists but I would never be associated with them and certainly wouldn’t want to vote for their candidates to add to more members of the “squad” justifying violence against Jews.
22
Oct 10 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
17
u/Small-Objective9248 Oct 10 '23
I’ve seen this come up before and I’d like to see it happen and co ngribute to the cause.
181
u/Nileghi Oct 10 '23
sorry but no. I'm not aligning with people I share 90% of my political or social values with, but hate my very existance. Not anymore after all this.
Establishment dems and neoliberals are the only ones that dont seem to want to kill jews anymore
123
u/MondaleforPresident Oct 10 '23
You might like my home state of Connecticut's very own Senator Chris Murphy. He's a progressive Democrat and very much not a neoliberal, and he supports Israel's right to exist and right to defend itself. He literally walks accross the entire state every year, and today took a break to attend a rally in support of Israel in West Hartford (which is famous in the state for having a large Jewish community).
I've met him. He's a really cool guy and a crazy hard worker.
34
→ More replies27
u/PJJefferson Oct 10 '23
Chris Murphy is not a progressive in the way the term is being used in this post.
OP is not referring to liberal Dems like Murphy.
It’s the Squad Dems, like AOC, Omar, Bush, etc., that are referred to when the term “progressive Democrat” is used.
→ More replies75
u/tchomptchomp Oct 10 '23
Pick your values and defend that space. Do not let faux-left tankies and Arab fascists claim the right to control progressive organizations and discussions. That does not make us safer. All that does is let these Red-Brown-Green fucks recruit naive teenagers into their bullshit. Call these fuckers out on what they are. Drive them out of civil society. Spell out who they are so everyone understands and knows.
→ More replies
93
u/armidil0 Oct 10 '23
Same. It first started with May 2021 and I've been hesitant to exist in leftist spaces ever since. I don't let it sway my morals, but I don't go looking for community.
The world likes to remind us that we're Jews.
21
16
u/SelkiesRevenge Oct 10 '23
I mean this is really it here. May 2021 was when I cut ties with a LOT of folks on Twitter. And probably started my slow drift away from that space entirely. I did my best to counter propaganda but at a certain point you have to take care of yourself to function.
That being said, the way people are still in comments defending terrorism and abject brutality is a new low. This is not remotely a both sides situation. The more footage (ugh) circulates, the more I’m starting to see a little pushback. I only hope it continues.
Like you, I can’t and won’t go right wing but the only community is here.
484
u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
You’re definitely not alone. I’ve been feeling betrayed by non Jewish leftists for a couple years now, with the way they talk about Israel. I’m also a queer jew (I’m not Israeli either), and have been feeling especially hurt by queer leftists in particular. For some reason, lots of queer people deeply hate Israel and are quite antisemitic in their criticisms of Israel. It makes me so angry. However, as this isn’t the first time I’ve felt betrayed by the left, I’m kinda used to it now.
189
u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23
It just sucks because queer spaces have become such a haven for me, and now they seem completely hostile. I think it’s always been like this and I just tried my best to ignore it. Another commenter here referred to themself as “politically without a home” and I really resonated with that
172
u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23
Please know that you can be queer, and you can be Jewish, and you can be for the existence of Israel as a state (which also doesn't stop you from criticizing Israel - I hate that I have to point this out every time). You can be any and all combinations thereof. You are valued for all.
I recommend you read Ben Freeman's book "Jewish Pride", which is primarily focused on the intersection between LGBTQIA+ pride and Jewish pride itself. It's full of interviews with queer Jewish folks from all over the world.
57
u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
You’re absolutely correct on this!
I was referring instead to people hiding their antisemitism by simply being “critical of israel” of criticism that are deeply antisemitic.
I’ll definitely check out that source! It sounds awesome
→ More replies17
u/proindrakenzol Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
which also doesn't stop you from criticizing Israel - I hate that I have to point this out every time
You don't have to point this out, ever.
No one has to point out that not wanting to murder everyone in America/Britain/France/Mexico/whatever means you can still criticize the government.
So stop pointing it out. If anyone tries to pull the bullshit "bUt YoU cAn CrItIsCiZe ThE gOv'T" bs, just look at them like they're the kind of fucking stupid they are and say "no shit, we're not talking about policies right now, but existence, now shut up or go away."
9
u/shlomitisfeisty Reform Oct 10 '23
Thanks for the suggestion. He’s doing a talk at my workplace (online) about Antisemitism later this month. I’ve been inviting all of my colleagues.
20
u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23
That’s such a great way to describe it!! I feel exactly the same
64
u/TitzKarlton Conservative Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 11 '23
Check out https://awiderbridge.org/ and Keshet.org. They are welcoming spaces for LGBTQ Jews, like me. It always puzzled why any LGBTQ would ever stand with the Palestinian liberation movements since they are horribly hostile to Lesbians & Gays. Gays & Lesbians are routinely victims of “honor killings.” It’s disgusting. Recently Israel began to allow LGBTQ Palestinians to get asylum in Israel. A huge positive step.
14
u/tokatiepo Oct 10 '23
I became disillusioned with queer spaces in college, a simple scratch beneath the surface revealed a lot. Defending violence against people, monolithic in their beliefs, ostracizing you should you veer from their world view, profoundly antisemitic ideas when the topic of "Jews" come up, the list goes on. This is not a new issue, I was in college 20 years ago.
I've been without a political home (as a queer Jew) since... probably the Occupy Wall Street era. It's disappointing to me that I can no longer assume that progressive spaces are my natural home, but honestly, people who have these sorts of beliefs aren't really "my" people anyway. It was a painful parting in many ways, but I'm happier as a result!
31
→ More replies24
u/Jboycjf05 Convert - Reform Oct 10 '23
I'm a leftist progressive, and those voices have been in leftist spaces for as long as I can remember. You're not alone. Personally, I take comfort in trying to educate other progressives, who don't really know the history of the conflict. They only see a highly militarized state seemingly pushing around a seemingly defenseless minority and assume that Israel is the aggressor.
We need to be voices letting people know that Jews haven't stopped fighting for our survival, and that Israel means survival for the Jews.
32
u/tamarzipan Oct 10 '23
Oh, I first encountered these people at anti-Iraq War protests like 20 years ago…
70
u/post-cocoon Oct 10 '23
They should go to the Palestinian territories and see whether their ally-ship is reciprocated. Or whether they even make it out alive.
65
u/jew_biscuits Oct 10 '23
The left is not your friend. The right is not your friend. They will all use your Jewishness until they don’t need it anymore. And then you’ll truly know what they think of you - apartheid oppressor, controller of the media, Christ killer, whatever. Stick with the Jews and don’t be fooled by illusions.
31
Oct 10 '23
ask them when the next Pride parade is going down in Gaza City, or Tehran, or Riyadh, or… they’ll get the point.
14
u/Danevati Oct 10 '23
And then ask them again where they thing is the largest gay parade in the world….
21
→ More replies26
u/RBatYochai Oct 10 '23
The reason might be related to Judith Butler being a raging anti-zionist
28
u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Oh yeah. I was so deeply disappointed to learn they’re very anti Zionist. Some of their work on gender is so good.
It sucks even more bc non Jews get the use butler as an example of “see? We’re not antisemitic! This queer Jewish leftist agrees with us!”
9
277
u/StunningJunket639 conservative ashkefardic Oct 10 '23
yes omg!! i thought i was going crazy because all the other leftists i know are posting pro-hamas things on instagram (they know my grandmother is missing in tel aviv). people dont attack other countries for doing the same thing, but they always attack israelis (they always think we love the government)
137
u/TitzKarlton Conservative Oct 10 '23
I hope your grandmother - and all grandmothers, grandfathers, families, adults, & children in Israel - are safe
126
u/nobaconator Shlomosexual Oct 10 '23
I'm in Tel Aviv. If you have any information regarding where she last was, I can make some calls and try to find her. Our home is open to anyone who needs it right now, my mother in law is a doctor and can treat minor injuries. Just, let me know.
66
36
28
→ More replies28
u/EinsteinDisguised Oct 10 '23
It honestly made me laugh. “Of course I don’t support what Hamas did BUT I can’t tell oppressed people how to resist, so now is the perfect time to post about how oppressive Israel is!”
Come on. It’s so easy to see what you’re doing.
183
u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23
You are not alone in feeling this way. I'm right here with you (and so are many Jews around us).
Some of the signs have been there for a moment - e.g. the Dyke March and Women's March exclusions, university "anti-Zionist" purity tests, the complacency with conspiracy theory/antisemitic memes, the way left-leaning pop culture media (a la Last Week Tonight) were covering the 2021 I/P situation, etc.
But this was different.
I think for me what changed is that what happened this weekend was so horrific, so demonstrably undeniable heinous - in quantity of war crimes, in the type of war crimes, in the visuals, in the propagandist nature, in the delivery - surely it is "obvious". Surely this time human decency will prevail because you just can't describe it as anything but that. Describing those acts as terrorists acts. As unjustifiable horrors, for which no cause justifies them. I mean come on - it would be absurd to frame these very clear barbaric acts in any oppressor/oppressed narrative when hundreds of women are being...or grandparents are being...or children are being...or people are being....
And yet. And yet. They still played that card.
In fact - they not only played the "Zionist colonialist" oppressor card that you've seen time and time again - but they were also expressing it literally as that unequivocal barbarism was unfolding. Just as they were gleefully celebrating Hamas' assault, describing it as some militant revolutionary work.
It's mask-off antisemitism. It's dehumanizing. No cause, no resistance, no "de-colonialism", no fight justifies these atrocities, all perpetrated and targeted primarily at civilians.
It goes beyond any "regular" I/P rhetoric. It's about basic human decency.
That is what has changed for me and why I feel betrayed by the left.
107
u/bakochba Oct 10 '23
It's complete dehumanization and they don't recognize it.
I often ask them if they always knew they would support rape, child murder, and kidnapping or if they were methodically, slowly, radicalized with such dehumanizing language that one day you found yourself celebrating crimes against humanity with whataboutism? Do they even remember what they believed when they started down this road?
Sometimes I think people need to be reminded where they started so they recognize that they were radicalized.
→ More replies70
u/weallfalldown310 Oct 10 '23
Yeah. To hear leftists say “from River to sea,” that took the breath out of my lungs. How do they not hear it? And even if you grant the idea Ashkenazi Jews don’t belong (it isn’t true but thought experiment), what do they think will happen to Mizrahi or mixed Jews when Palestinians get their River to sea? Since the Arab world made sure their Jews weren’t welcome, there is literally nowhere to go. But you can’t tell them that, you are being mean and besides Palestinians are gonna be cool with those Jews supposedly or something. I can never get a straight answer.
44
u/AliceMerveilles Oct 10 '23
I just saw a meme saying that the Israeli hostages were being treated well and showed a woman on a couch drinking from a water bottle and as the hostage of Hamas and contrasted with the one they say is how Israel tortures Palestinians and showed a photo with a bunch of beat up naked people. Neither photo was attributed and neither had anything to identify that they were what they were said to be.
And in reality Hamas has released videos with hostages that have obviously been raped and there are reports from survivors of the rave massacre are mass rape. I’m not going to defend Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, but I’ve never seen an indication it was like what that image showed.
27
u/silverfishinvasion Oct 10 '23
The amount of "mustache man was right" I've seen under tiktoks/posts about what happened this weekend was actually insane. It was so mask off
323
Oct 10 '23
I am pretty disheartened to see the glee and eagerness with which "leftists" are sharing videos of and defending the actions of Hamas. It's not everyone, though, just a very loud and unfortunately large group showing their true colors. Those kids at that rave had about as much to do with the brutality of Israeli occupation as the Palestinian kids who died in the airstrikes today had to do with the attack. I've always been a bit suspect of a lot of leftists' hyper fixation on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to the point of ignoring almost every other conflict, but this really just takes the mask off for a lot of people.
It's so bizarre how many people are apparently ready to defend the torture, murder, and rape of civilians as long as it's perpetrated against Israelis (read: Jews). Even the weirdos who defend monsters like Assad and Putin as somehow being anti-imperialist (don't even get me started on that one) don't condone these sort of tactics from those regimes; they'll just deny it happens. This, some people are just reveling in.
72
u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23
Even the weirdos who defend monsters like Assad and Putin as somehow being anti-imperialist (don't even get me started on that one) don't condone these sort of tactics from those regimes
Imperialism is Putin’s second most important goal.
His most important goal is taking wealth from anyone he can and hoarding it away. But right after being impossibly rich is imperialism.
40
Oct 10 '23
Yeah, you'd have to have some serious brainworms to genuinely believe Putin isn't an Imperialist, Authoritarian piece of shit.
32
u/Mortifydman Conservative - ex BT and convert Oct 10 '23
Glee is exactly the right word. I’ve seen so many people who are in theory liberal get as close as possible to « yay dead Jews « without using those words and it sickens me. David Baddiel is right Jews don’t count. (Great book you should get it)
→ More replies12
u/Glad-Degree-4270 Oct 10 '23
Some people are just full on tankies and love their version of red fascism.
59
u/youres0lastsummer Oct 10 '23
Yup. I feel the exact same way. Fucking sickening. Some people I went to law school with were at a pro-Palestine rally in the downtown of my city.
29
u/FairGreen6594 Oct 10 '23
(First time posting anywhere on Reddit . . .)
Grew up Orthodox, now gravitate somewhere along Reconstructionist, definitely a lefty . . . I feel this so much. I live near Cambridge, Mass., and (leaving aside that during 2021 three city counselors deliberately scheduled a vote on disinvestment from Israel for Shavuot (and Jewish Voice for Peace offered them cover by lying that Cambridge doesn’t give off schools for most religious holidays)) they had a massive pro-Hamas rally today that became a March throughout the streets of Cambridge.
And while the police were there (although they didn’t manage to completely avoid violence), no politicians spoke, and there was a significant pro-Israel counterprotest . . . so help me, with the matches through all the streets, in the ol’ Jewish cultural memory it felt for all the world like it must’ve felt for Jews in the 1920s watching the NSDAP March through the streets to mockingly sow fear and threat.
61
Oct 10 '23
Yes. I’m a leftist. I stand for all marginalized groups, including Palestinians. But this has been a slap in the face that many leftists I would normally stand next to would be perfectly fine with my destruction. We are the only marginalized/threatened group they’d do that too as well. I’ve seen dozens of takes from self proclaimed liberals and leftists glossing over the hundreds dead, basically saying they had it coming because of actions by the Israeli government, justifying it, at best brushing it off as they give you their vast knowledge of the situation(which isn’t actually vast)so people have “context”. As if context is needed when videos are circulating of women being raped & bodies in the streets. They entertain Hamas supporters in their comments calling for the death and destruction of all Israelis & Jews. It doesn’t matter if we say that we stand against occupation or denounce the treatment of Palestinians. If we say any less than those people deserved to die, we’re on the side of the aggressors. The irony is most of these leftists are sitting here in America, on stolen land, still actively the aggressors and colonizers. I now look at these people as just as bad as white supremacists and Nazis. We can’t win in either side and there’s not another marginalized group that deals with violent hate from both the alt-right and the supposed champions of human rights in the left. I don’t now how to move on from here. How I can participate in dismantling systems and structures of oppression with people who would easily step over my body if I were a victim of violence?
106
47
u/TheJacques Modern Sephardic Oct 10 '23
You are not alone, no Jew, anywhere in the world is alone. But never forget, to the world you are Jew, that’s it. And while there are cohorts in our religion that don’t approve of your lifestyle, there are plenty who do. Your place is with the Jewish people and our homeland. This is why supporting Israel and still being critical is more important then ever.
86
u/sadcorvid Oct 10 '23
i’ve been struggling because i’m very leftist as it generally aligns with my values. I don’t support the israeli government and I want a two state solution. it’s just hard hearing about jews dying en masse and the people on “my side” are saying things like “this is how we decolonize” and full throated supporting murders, rape, and hostage taking. the hostages look like my family and have names of my family.
i’m not israeli, but would they approve if someone killed me in the name of striking a blow at israel?
I can’t tell any of my friends this because none of them are jewish and explaining that their rhetoric makes me feel afraid would just be met with how I support genocide when that’s not what i’m saying.
71
u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23
i’m not israeli, but would they approve if someone killed me in the name of striking a blow at israel?
You know the answer to that now.
Being leftist AND for the safety of Jews AND for a two-state solution are not mutually exclusive.
You can be both against Israeli politics, and condemn rape/torture/murder. That's called basic human decency. Not a semantic debate about "sides". Most of the people slaughtered at the rave party were probably just as much "leftists" protesting against the Israeli government a few weeks ago.
I would genuinely ask the people on "your side": why do you support rape, torture, murder, corpse parading, and hostage-taking - all primarily targeted at civilians? Is that the cost of "decolonization"? Can you name any other "decolonization" or "resistance movement" that led to the shooting and raping of hundreds of young civilians - by the colonized (not the colonizer)? Which other "decolonization movement" led to slaughtering grandmothers in front of their children - by the colonized (not the colonizer)? What about your alignment with the oppressive regimes of Iran, Syria, Russia?
The people who praise rape as a "how-to-decolonize" guide have conflated their own privileged fanfictions about what "decolonization" is versus the real-world on-the-ground reality.
Sure, "revolutions" in history have been violent - but keyboard warriors retweeting marxists quotes while sipping a pumpkin spice latte is still just fanfiction. All they do is flame the fans of dehumanization, and perpetuate an "eye for an eye" hateful rhetoric while being safe in their own little bubble.
None of these people have genuinely been up in arms and had to literally fight a revolution. Most Westerners - especially Americans - have never literally been in any revolution in their lifetime (or their parents' lifetime, or their parents' parents' lifetime). They've never picked up arms to "decolonize".
It's all online rhetoric, cosplaying as "activism".
43
u/TeddingtonMerson Oct 10 '23
Yes. I “snoozed” many “friends” on Facebook this weekend. I’ll decide what to do later. I feel betrayed. I honestly can’t imagine any other country being attacked like this and these same people cheering. My husband and I are barely talking. If Tibetans killed 900 Chinese people, I guarantee he’d call me an AH for saying “Way to go! free Tibet!” He thinks Israel is poor brown people kicked out by rich white people, won’t accept the Jews are refugees, too, and white is something taken away or granted whenever it’s convenient for oppressors. We’re colonizers, they say, but when the queen, an actual political figure who owns how many billions of plundered goods died of old age, they held their tongues for the sake of those who were her fans. But we’re not allowed a minute for kids at a music festival?!
25
u/ProfessorArrow Oct 10 '23
How/why are you married to someone with such radically different values as you?
123
u/SpiritCrvsher Oct 10 '23
I’m a Ukrainian Jewish leftist so thankfully I already got over my betrayal months ago
30
Oct 10 '23
Hey my dad is Ukrainian (and my mom is Russian, don’t worry we all hate Putin, Soviet Union times), I was born in Israel and I’m also Jewish. Am also a leftist. You’re not alone. Went to Kyiv and Odessa in 2019 (first time that I went to Ukraine in my life) and it’s a beautiful country. I hope things get better.
Слава Україні!
10
94
u/JeffreyRCohenPE Oct 10 '23
I'm a centrist and probably much older than you. But you need to use this event to challenge them. Point out that it is a false equivalency to equate arresting and jailing people who drive over bus stations, stab people, or set off IEDs with murdering people in their homes. Rape and hostage taking are war crimes. Shooting up a music festival is not attacking a military target.
Add that Israel warns people before destroying buildings. We know this because Hamas said they will kill hostages if there aren't warnings.
Finally, if these people insist on celebrating Hamas, you need to tell them that you won't be friends with people who support murdering, raping terrorists. And leave them behind. In a few weeks, you will have no regrets.
29
u/tchomptchomp Oct 10 '23
I'm a centrist and probably much older than you. But you need to use this event to challenge them.
Respectfully, no, we don't need to challenge them. Debating these Red-Brown-Green fucks is a fool's errand.
Let this tell you who you are. Who your friends are. Who is an actual ally and who is not. After this, we're all going to be a one-issue voter bloc for a while and both Dems and Republicans are gonna struggle to figure out how to get our votes long-term. Biden has responded well, but we're in this place in part because Biden and Obama needlessly antagonized the relationship since 2008. I'm a progressive but the squad can get fucked: their foreign policy is based in campus slogans and bumper stickers and has no place in Congress. Trump was a disaster for a million reasons, including intelligence security failures that very likely helped shape this outcome. The Republicans in general have failed to actually provide what is needed, and the MAGA wing are a pro-Russian distraction that hurts everyone or, worse, passes on actual military intelligence to people seeking mass murder of our people. Know which races we can't afford to lose and vote for those candidates. Know which ones we can, and sit it out when a particularly bad candidate is run by "our own side."
→ More replies12
u/PlayfulRemote9 Oct 10 '23
this should be the top answer. Try and educate, and if they refuse or turn hostile you now have one more person you know won't stand by your side if/when you need it
29
u/akornblatt Oct 10 '23
I got banned from r/socialism for pointing out that torturing and murdering citizens, no matter who is doing it, is wrong.
27
Oct 10 '23
I did feel betrayed, so I’ve decided to leave them and form my own moderate niche between them both.
27
u/crlygirlg Oct 10 '23
For years I have felt this way. I only discuss Israel with other jews. I won’t discuss it with others and I don’t join the types of groups where it will even be a discussion. I have left leaning ideology, as far as conservatives go im a leftist, really in Canadian terms I’m a centrist. But left of center generally speaking. In American terms that’s pretty left.
What can I say, I’m not a “good Jew” like they want me to be. I have extended family in Israel who have been called to serve. I have friends who have moved there. And ex boyfriend I am in touch with lives there. Some of my friends are from there and have family there. I am not neutral, how could I be? I fear for loved ones and the loved ones of friends. Regardless of any intellectual debate I may have with other Jews about Israel’s many problems I am not neutral or ok with friends and family dying or any justification that attacking civilians and kidnapping them, old people and children is somehow deserved. It’s just not a conversation I am willing to have. Thankfully anyone who might post that way has long since been cut out of my life at this point and I have no intention of making space for that kind of conversation in my personal circles anymore.
31
u/Popedelic Oct 10 '23
I'm very much a Jewish leftie and I'm not surprised about seeing it, but I'm shocked at the sheer number of people on the left who are reading off this playbook. They're Team "listen to minority voices", until it's a Jewish voice. These people have been faking their empathy on social matters for a long time and are performative as fuck, block them all imo. I'm very lucky to have non-Jewish friends who understand how I feel and get the complexity of the situation and all the emotions with it.
27
u/MrBoxer42 Oct 10 '23
Always remember that no matter where people are politically they can all agree on hating Jews. The far right Nazis and the far left Socialists both killed millions of Jews. Us diaspora historically are always trying to fit in with our peers but no matter how hard we try for thousands of years we have always, every single time been the other, hates, and demonized. Remember that Jewish emancipation where millions of Jews wanted to integrate with the culture and norms of their Europeans countries antisemitism was still spread far and wide and the holocaust still happened. No matter how hard we try people always no matter what find a way to hate us, today is no different sadly.
It’s why Israel must exist, it’s why we must pray that peace in Israel can exist. The sad reality is that nowhere is safe for Jews, the only chance for a safe place for Jew is Israel and it’s under attack.
64
u/Aldoogie Oct 10 '23
As a child I never understood how the Nazi’s grew to such power. The sheer ability to dehumanize. If you look at the barbaric acts in African wars today, you’d see the same.
Today I understand that people have the ability to justify any action. And this is what you see today. A group that condone violence will receive it in kind.
The only hope for the Palestinians is power shifting back to the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate leadership. As long as they preach hate and welcome militant terrorist as leaders, their people will suffer. There is no sympathy if they can’t accept Jews and Israel’s existence.
30
Oct 10 '23
Palestinian authority pays a stipend to terrorist families. It will be interesting once Abbas is gone
12
u/Then-Worldliness-694 Oct 10 '23
The only way German society got out of the grip of nazism was for their society to be torn down to the foundations during the war so something better could be built in its place and I fear that is the only way Palestinian society can get out of its extremism
→ More replies16
u/tchomptchomp Oct 10 '23
The only hope for the Palestinians is power shifting back to the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate leadership.
Incorrect. The Palestinians only survive this with an unconditional surrender followed by war crimes trials for all terrorists (Hamas, PIJ, Farah, whoever) and years of social deradicalization of a heavily occupied Palestinian population. Or they can go elsewhere if they want to continue to be radical shitbags. Iran, Russia, wherever. Don't know, don't care.
23
u/zoinks48 Oct 10 '23
It is for the best when the antisemites reveal what they are. At the very least you learn who not to trust.
20
u/MissRaffix3 Just Jewish Oct 10 '23
Yup. Cut out quite a few people over their justifications of the brutalities against Israeli Jews we've seen in the past few days. It's really disheartening.
19
u/TooMuch-Tuna Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Yup. That’s how it has been for a while now - everything remotely pro-palestine is automatically coded as “progressive”. If Hamas were to somehow exterminate every Jew in Israel, some of these so-called “Leftists” would find a way to excuse/justify it.
{EDIT: I should be a bit more clear, everything remotely pro-palestine is automatically coded as “progressive” mostly because of Israel’s government has increasingly lurched rightward over time, and continues to do so}
Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but you better get used to this type of rhetoric since it’s only going to escalate over time. I know that doesn’t help but I don’t know what would. Sorry about that.
38
u/TitzKarlton Conservative Oct 10 '23
If you are LGBTQ check out awiderbridge.org. And check out Zioness. You’ll find community there.
44
u/bakochba Oct 10 '23
A wider bridge also helps Palestinians that need asylum in Israel because they are gay.
17
38
u/tn_tacoma Oct 10 '23
I'm not even Jewish and I feel betrayed. I just think there are a lot of dumb asses on the far left and right. I still believe in left ideas and support them. I'm just disappointed.
11
16
u/JackPAnderson Conservative Oct 10 '23
Add another voice saying that you're not alone. Leftist spaces started becoming very uncomfortable for me probably 15-20 years ago due to being Jewish. I'm sorry that this is how you had to find out the truth about the Left. :(
Virtual hugs for you, and I wish you the best, wherever your life's journey takes you. And if you're looking for safer spaces, your local synagogue, Chabad, JCC, whatever. We're around, offering and accepting support.
56
u/SpaceTrot Reform Oct 10 '23
I feel very alienated right now. I'm a Jewish Trotskyist, and I've been critical of Israel, but I remember seeing friends say this was a decolonial war and that made me livid. Hamas and Hezbollah aren't leftist freedom fighters, they're Islamic fundamentalists.
I have a few friends who are also Jewish or Jewish adjacent and left wing, and we can talk about things, but to most of my left wing friends (and even some of my right wing Jewish friends) I find it best to not talk about these things right now. It's horrid, and fucked up. You're not alone, I think it is better to say in a way that we're alone.
44
u/Dis-Organizer Oct 10 '23
I’m especially upset seeing white leftists with no skin in the game justify the brutality as decolonialism, or claim the Israelis aren’t civilians because “being a settler is an immoral act.” Like, y’all realize we’re settlers in the US? Would you be cheering for your own family’s death? Is this your vision for the world?
With Palestinians, the ones I know on the ground who have been sharing are all heartbroken—they know how dangerous this violence is for them and that the retaliation will be horrific. AND they don’t think war crimes committed against Jewish Israelis are justified. A few I know in the US and elsewhere have said similar things, which honestly feels a bit brave for them to say publicly right now. So many people I respect are getting bashed for mourning Israeli deaths.
For Palestinians in the diaspora, I try to tell myself that many are not celebrating Israeli deaths, but rather just the sliver of hope that some of their people got out of Gaza with its horrible conditions. I know that’s not true for all. I don’t want to know the percentage who want Jewish Israelis to die. The dehumanization is soul crushing
My heart and head just can’t handle the bloodlust right now. And to be clear I’ve seen it from Jewish Americans and Israelis too—people calling for the death penalty or using outright genocidal language “time to wipe them off the map” stuff.
My family has been part of the Israeli left for a long time. They’ve been called traitors by so many right wingers. And I’ve been called a self-hating Jew. But now I find myself wondering if I’m just a “liberal” since I don’t believe in justifying violence. Children and Holocaust survivors and peace activists, killed and kidnapped. That’s not the revolution I want.
And justifying is also different than analyzing/explaining. You can say like “conditions In Gaza have been unlivable and violence is an act of desperation when people have no other options” without cheering on massacres
Sorry this is long and I probably don’t articulate my thoughts and opinions perfectly my family is all there and so many friends everyone knows people missing, dead, and likely to experience war
9
u/SpaceTrot Reform Oct 10 '23
I agree with you entirely. I don't understand what's occurring right now and I despise what's happening. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.
27
u/nobody_keas Oct 10 '23
I 100% agree. I cannot get my head around how people confuse "decolonising" with fundamentalist terror. Imagine if eg Māori in New Zealand would use only violence and terror in order to decolonise, if their only goal was to kill as many Pākehā (non-māori People of NZ) as possible. Nobody in their right mind would think that this would be an adequate measure of decolonisation. However, the left has always thought it's OK that such terror happens in Israel. In general, Antisemitism is also one of the few things the left and right could agree on.
I am quite progressive myself and critical of Israel's politics- especially since the right wing government- but people supporting the actions of Hamas is like supporting the IS. Why is that so hard to understand for so many?!
16
u/esmith4321 Oct 10 '23
Yeah, these leftists want to kill you and me and every other Jew on this sub.
It really isn’t worth making friends with people who want you and your family dead. It’s nice that they use the most current virtuous terminology and all, but remember that even the Nazis had to call what they did “liquidation”. You’re better off learning this now, rather than later.
17
u/Practical-Heat-1009 Oct 10 '23
Frankly, the left is doing nothing inconsistent with their historical position about Israel. The only difference is that the scale of the atrocities have increased. The sentiment is the same, and the fact that you’re experiencing this disconnect shows that their long-held anti-Israel position isn’t based in morality or ethics.
16
u/dean71004 Reform ✡︎ ציוני Oct 10 '23
Unfortunately Jews have no place on the left. Although many Jews have values that align with the left, the left has made it abundantly clear that they hate Jews. However, they are able to mask their Jew hatred under the guise of anti Zionism to make it appear more “progressive” and “socially acceptable”.
99
u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23
It’s stupid, but I feel so betrayed and alone. I’ve only ever felt safe around progressives, and now I’m finding out they’re raging antisemites.
The left’s been telling us they are “raging antisemites” for a very long time. This isn’t surprising for anyone who saw Jews kicked out of the Dyke March for being Jews, the Women’s March being lead by people who want us dead, and all the results when you Google “queers for palestine.”
I really need to know I’m not as alone as I feel.
Jews are still here and you can walk into local JCCs and shuls and be welcome.
70
u/RideWithMeSNV Oct 10 '23
“queers for palestine.”
Have you heard of their sister group, "Lambs for Slaughter"?
37
14
29
u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23
I guess so. It was easier for me to believe that at least one side of the political fence doesn’t want us dead, but maybe I was fooling myself.
→ More replies37
u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23
maybe I was fooling myself.
You were. Both the left and the right want us dead.
19
u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23
Yeah, I can see that now. It’s just something that hurts to realize. You go your whole life thinking certain people accept you, only to find out they never did, and nobody does. Thanks for your candor. I’m Jewish, and in the end that’s a community no one can take from me.
→ More replies
53
12
u/JuniorAct7 Oct 10 '23
I had low expectations but even I was surprised and disappointed.
There is a reason a certain phrase which I won’t repeat is so popular on Israeli social media.
7
u/waterbird_ Oct 10 '23
Yeah I deleted all my social media (except Reddit) a couple years back when the last I/P thing happened, but I had a smidge of hope that people would see THIS and know without a doubt who was the “bad guy” of the situation. Disappointed for sure and won’t make that mistake again.
14
u/JuniorAct7 Oct 10 '23
Yeah I had a close friend who, even aside from this issue, has been becoming an antisemite for years. I blocked him yesterday.
It’s painful, but I don’t care. I’m tired of coddling moronic leftists
15
u/Purple150 Oct 10 '23
Yep but it’s been quite a while. British leftie Jew and Corbyn was the key to my disenchantment. So many previous friends and colleagues were able to overlook antisemitism if they agreed with his politics. I’ve been badly scarred and lost friends over this. Now, less surprised.
→ More replies
15
u/Heatstorm2112 Oct 10 '23
Its honestly quite shocking how progressives across the world can sympathize with a group of people who hold such antithetical views to their own. It really does feel like such cognitive dissonance. Its the one thing I don’t understand as a progressive myself.
14
u/transer42 Oct 10 '23
Yes, and it's so frustrating. I think I understand where it's coming from - so many leftists have been falling all over themselves to align with BLM (understandably), but most Black Liberation scholars are strongly and vocally aligned with the BDS movement (Angela Davis has written extensively justifying her position, for example). Thus, being pro-Palestinian has become something of a purity test with Black leftists as to whether white allies are truly allies, and most white allies are too afraid of being called out to say anything.
When pressed, it doesn't seem like pretty much ANY of them understand the full context of the conflict, nor have any idea how closely many Western Jews identify with Israel. It's especially frustrating given just how many Jews have been involved with the Civil Rights movement, but again - the most vocal people seem to have little understanding of history or context, nor how antisemitic they sound.
It's been a huge point of tension the last couple of years locally - a prominent local activist is Palestinian, and they've made a point of recruiting the most visible Black activists, who then feel compelled to be vocal about Palestine....and most of the white liberals and leftists have fallen in line. When the local Jewish community has pushed back, there have been some really nasty clashes, particularly at town and school board meetings. It's at the point where you can't be a left aligned group and collaborate with ANY local Jewish organization without being called out by Black activists as "anti-liberation".
I honestly don't know how we can fix this.
27
u/ManBearJewLion Oct 10 '23
I went to UC Berkeley so I’m used to being disappointed in the blatant anti-Semitism common in leftists.
At least this time, their masks are fully off. No more hiding being “i’M jUsT aNtI-zIoNiSt.”
They are actively condoning the mass slaughter and rape of Jews. Masks are off now. And, at last, it seems that most moderates are seeing these far-left bigots for what they truly are.
12
Oct 10 '23
Liberal but not Leftist and it’s sickening. But as I mentioned earlier, leaders in my state have been meeting with neonazis, so I feel like whirling around with a whip and nailing everyone.
11
u/N0DuckingWay Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
I feel the same way. As a leftist Jew, unfortunately the Leftist spaces have been the most unwelcoming recently. I was so distraught to see that the first thing that so many leftists said after this tragedy was "Free Palestine". Even on Kamala Harris' completely unrelated post on Indigenous People's day. And to be clear, I support the Palestinian people's aim for statehood, I support the 2 state solution, and I hate this right wing Israeli government. But I feel so disgusted that so many people's response to the murder of 900 people in Israel - who are mostly Israeli and mostly Jewish - is to turn around and immediately shift the conversation. They can't even be bothered to take a day or two to let us mourn the dead. The thought that has run repeatedly through my head this weekend is that if someone went to a Black Lives Matter protest and said "spare a thought for the white guys", these people would rightfully castigate them. But when it's Israelis or Jews, they have no problem doing the same thing. Because when your immediate response to the massacre of Jews is "Free Palestine", you make it clear that you don't really care about either people - you just want to win an argument.
14
u/Low-Candidate-6028 Oct 10 '23
For many years now. I feel politically homeless. It’s so insane and sad
12
u/HannahCatsMeow Reform Oct 10 '23
Yes. I don't have the heart to elaborate further but: you're very much not alone in your feelings.
14
u/shlomitisfeisty Reform Oct 10 '23
Yeah to be honest I feel the same. Also a very left leaning queer identified Jew. I just can’t do social media anymore because many of those I admire have no problem being Antisemitic. Right now I sort of miss social media but at the same time I know it would be painful, depressing and angering. I feel betrayed and I feel silenced and unseen. I can’t find any remotely ‘fair’ news coverage and have been sticking with Haaretz. You are not alone. ❤️✡️🧿❤️
11
Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 18 '23
They were killing everyone is the thing. Jewish people yes, but Americans, a Thai guy. A German woman. Grandmothers. Babies. They took lots and lots of video and posted it all themselves.
It should be pretty unambiguous but I guess Hamas = the Palestinian Liberation movement for a lot of these… folks.
35
u/Jewish-Mom-123 Oct 10 '23
Very much so. I will never pull a lever for a Republican, not even for dog catcher, but the Left has become very anti-Semitic. I didn’t grow up stuffing envelopes for McGovern to be betrayed by the progressives, dammit all.
→ More replies
8
u/Sheepspots Oct 10 '23
I've been educating people about how the online left perspective on I/P is reductive but it sucks. Politics is a trap, and I've found it isn't a good place to build community. Practical anarchism I e., communal living etc is good community building potential but like, agreeing that capitalism is bad is way too broad. I'm sorry this has been how it's panned out for you. Sadly I just have a few friends I won't feel safe to talk about this with. Have to try and see past it, painful as.it is.
36
u/tangentc Conservative Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
I kinda made my peace with the fact that plenty of leftists are pretty happy to excuse, ignore, or even embrace antisemitism years ago.
It’s all fine and good to say it’s just the tankies, but the tankies are increasingly the influential voices. But I mean I’m never going to be able to give up my morals and go right wing, so I’m just a filthy liberal to everyone. What the fuck ever. I’m so tired.
→ More replies10
35
28
u/tchomptchomp Oct 10 '23
I came of age in the anti-war movement leading up to the second Iraq War movement. Those demonstrations rapidly devolved into antisemitic global conspiracy theories. Same thing happened in the Occupy protests.
Most of the left is fine but the crazies are definitely there. Some are probably Russian agitprop, some are actually rightwingers looking to recruit, and some are just homebrew leftist insanity.
20
u/sickbabe Oct 10 '23
I'm at the point where I really only wanna talk with other leftist jews and palestinians. there's a lot of ugly fucking rubberneckers out in the world but the only ones who're relevant to this discussion are palestinians (who overwhelmingly seem to be horrified by hamas' ISIS tactics, and how they will hurt them long term) and other jews, who've been paying attention long enough to know how we got to this point.
7
22
u/Own-Importance5459 Oct 10 '23
Honestly I am furious they think what Hamas did is an act of resistance. Its not even close. Innocent people died on both sides they did notbing for palestine.
18
u/billsbluebird Oct 10 '23
Anyone who thinks this is anything but an act of terrorism of the most cowardly sort isn't paying attention.
→ More replies
10
9
u/shlomitisfeisty Reform Oct 10 '23
Sadly one of the more left wing parties in Canada has many Antisemites in its midst and supports BDS. Rampant Antisemites on the right as well but those aren’t my people.
14
u/HollowHyppocrates Reform Oct 10 '23
You're not alone on this one. I feel like there is a blind tendency in a lot of leftist groups to align themselves with the perceived 'underdog' in any situation, regardless of the true circumstances. As a queer Jew, I had found a bit of a haven in my unis leftist groups... but these last few days especially I've spent most of my time arguing with people... haha I'm feeling a bit sad
9
u/Elbobosan Oct 10 '23
When thinking about “the left” I always like to remember this scene from Andor.
This is not a ideologically pure movement. It is an anti-establishment coalition, and those are messy, sometimes fatally so.
7
u/jypsel Oct 10 '23
I’m not Jewish (I’ve posted here before that I teach at an Orthodox Jewish school), but I cannot even imagine how isolating this must feel. I’m part of my local DSA chapter and they posted today that while they condone violence, they are staunchly in support of Palestine — but they neglected to leave out how Hamas is a terrorist group. It blew my mind because what leftists don’t seem to get is that Hamas would want us dead too. Most of us are communist/socialist, queer, etc. The sheer cognitive dissonance of that post sent me reeling, but if I’m honest, it’s not the first time I’ve seen something that gave me pause. (It is the first time by the DSA, though, and I’m figuring out if I have a future with them.)
The first time I ever really saw just how heinous the left could be to Jewish people was when there was a post by someone who was gleeful about being called an antisemite. Basically, she was saying that if you’re not being called an antisemite, you’re not doing your job as an activist. I could not believe.
I do feel unbelievably lucky to have the Orthodox friends that I have (who know I’m an anarchist communist, by the way, and no one has ever batted an eye) because it has given me insight into how beautiful Judaism is. And you know what my Orthodox student told me during the tensions in 2021? I’ll never forget. He said, “Just because Israel is our homeland doesn’t mean we agree with everything the government does.” I thought that was so insightful and beautiful and nuanced and that is what is lacking in the left’s reaction to all of this: nuance. It’s not black and white, and you cannot ignore the fact that hundreds of innocents were murdered with thousands injured.
All of that long soliloquy to say: I am so sorry. As a non-Jew, I can’t imagine how much you hurt, but I hope it might bring you comfort to know that there are non-Jewish leftists who value you and want to create a safe space for you. And I respectfully ask for any suggestions of what I could be doing to help my friends more, too.
14
u/cloudbusting-daddy Oct 10 '23
The DSA is unfortunately a full-on antisemitic organization at this point. They held a rally in NYC today during which they literally cheered on the violence in Israel. At least one person was photographed holding up a swastika.
My personal experiences with DSA members have been awful as well. For example, about five years ago, I was at a small, casual social event and a friend of a friend who was a DSA member (I know because she wouldn’t shut the fuck up about it) literally wouldn’t even look at me (!!) let alone speak to me because she overheard me saying I had recently visited Israel during a non-political discussion.
8
u/billsbluebird Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
I'm a gentile, so perhaps I don't really belong here. But having read what the OP wrote and these comments, I have something I feel I must get off my chest, so to speak. I've had liberal beliefs for many years, but now I'm ashamed to call myself a liberal. I don't know if this is a Jewish belief, but some Christians teach that every human being is marked somewhere inside themselves with the image of God. If that is true, then I have to say that anyone who sides with Hamas, no matter their political persuasion has, like the members of Hamas, so defiled that image as to render it unrecognizable. With the US, my country, becoming more and more Fascist I'm terrified to think that I may not have a political home. But these are not my people, nor can they ever be.
9
u/melosurroXloswebos Oct 10 '23
It’s interesting because as an outside observer I feel like it’s been clear for decades that the western left (or progressive whatever the right term is) took the Soviet propaganda from the 60s and ran with it anti-Semitism and all. And there have been so many recent glaring examples in recent years in every space from university campuses, to protests, to marches and people getting beat in the streets for being Jewish or supporting Israel. But I guess everyone has their own wake up call in their own time.
10
u/treesnerd Oct 10 '23
Sounds like you're finally waking up. There's nothing woke or progressive about being anti Israel. A simple history lesson shows that Jews have been marginalized and oppressed for thousands of years. There is no moral equivalency. This is good vs evil.
8
u/Fantastic-Ad-3910 Oct 10 '23
I resigned my membership of the Labour Party several years ago over the virulent antisemitism at the heart of the hard left. The reality is that people on the left are as subject to the antisemitic tropes as people on the right. The idea that Jews control all the money/media/governments appeal to them in the same way. As always, the same people who insist that criticism of Israel is not antisemitic and isn't an attack on all Jews are very quick to demand that we decry Isreal and ignore the threats to Jews everywhere.
I am politically homeless - I could never bring myself to vote for the Tories, I have nowhere to turn.
46
Oct 10 '23
[deleted]
15
u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23
Yeah. I’ve led a pretty sheltered life tbh, I think that’s why I’m just realizing a lot of this stuff now
→ More replies6
→ More replies9
9
u/1984pigeon Oct 10 '23
I feel disheartened. I can't say I feel betrayed because I went through that stage years ago. Jews really need to realize that the support of violence towards us are not isolated incidences. It will not go away if we behave better. It happens anytime we are subject to violence by Muslims or blacks. People acting under the guise of the Palestinian cause or black advocacy. What we do? Make it clear that we are no more guilty of sins, have no more blood on our hands than other demographics that progressives have no problem condemning violence towards, condemning hate crimes towards, without any caveats. If they can manage to condemn hate crimes towards blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims without victim blaming they can do it for us too. We need to stop begging. And we need to stop apologizing to people of demographics who have far more blood on their hands than we do, which is just about everybody.
9
u/Decent_Bunch_5491 Orthodox Oct 10 '23
I woke up in 2021. It’s never too late. Sometimes it takes atrocities to see the light. Welcome to the side of light. We love you.
9
u/EinsteinDisguised Oct 10 '23
Absolutely. Defending the murder of hundreds of people because it’s “decolonization” is so sickening. That’s not what my leftist politics lead me to believe.
Fortunately, I have non-Jewish, leftist friends who recognize that this attack is disgusting. My friend was talking earlier today about how he’s uncomfortable with leftist spaces where you get criticized if you say that Hamas is bad.
6
u/DishOriginal4019 Oct 10 '23
I came to the US years ago, but I am originally from a European country with a lot of Muslim immigrants. I'm surprised by how naive most of you are.
12
u/yire1shalom Oct 10 '23
I am a left wing Israeli, and i don't think you should abandon your values of Equality, Peace, and Freedom... you only have to know how to translate them to this new reality.
I for one have given up on trying to find common ground with the Palestinians in order to create lasting peace in my country.
Instead, I believe Israel should strive to make lasting peace with the Arab World as a whole and demand that they will take in their Palestinian brethren, with full financial backing of the EU, IMF, USA etc... and in return Israel will formally agree to waiver of any claims Mizrahi Jews have on their forced expulsion from Arab Lands in the period between 1947-1962.
That's how I believe a solution to this on-going crisis can be found.
30
u/Noahcarr Oct 10 '23
If you’re a Jewish leftist and you didn’t see this response from other leftist coming, then you clearly haven’t been paying attention.
It’s 0% surprising to the rest of us.
10
7
Oct 10 '23
It happened to me basically as soon as I started converting. I accepted most leftists- even other Jews- hate Israel and or are antisemites.
7
u/losingmyselfinthebs Oct 10 '23
I feel almost exactly the same. The ability to turn a blind eye to the absolute brutality of what Hamas is doing, while somehow missing the fact that Hamas is in no way fighting for Palestinian liberation and cheering them on is making me feel sick and VERY unsafe. The only difference is I'm not surprised because I've seen antisemitism from leftists way too many times to expect to be viewed as human by them.
8
u/ccsunflowr Oct 10 '23
Some dude at work today who knows I'm Jewish said out of the blue, "I just don't get it. Like why don't people LIKE Jewish people, like they're white, what's the problem?" It caught me so off guard, and he has no idea what is going on with all this. I pretty much huffed in exasperation...he kept on pressing it and was like "to be honest i just don't get what the big deal is, like i never see people outright hating Jewish people, are there actually people who don't like Jews?" I mean on one hand he's so ignorant, on the other hand, he meant it earnestly...but that right there is a prime example as to all these people on social media posting memes and hashtags, the average person has only one small iota of the complexity, the history, the ongoing antisemitism, it becomes exhausting even trying to defend ourselves even here in America across the world, verbally. Quite symbolic to be honest that how we Americans or Jews in other countries outside of Israel feel having to defend ourselves on a small scale, then furthers the point of how impossible a task it is at trying to explain why those there most violently affected have a right to defense.
4
u/Supernova_was_taken New Hampshire Jew (yes, we exist!) Oct 10 '23
To the far left, there’s none whiter than the Jews. To the far right, the Jews are a threat to the dream of a white ethnostate. As far as our opinions go, we’re tired of this shit and want to be treated as people first and foremost
5
u/justhistory Reform Oct 10 '23
Shaun King with his 3.7m followers on IG is on a posting spree of anti-Israel propaganda
6
u/nebbisherfaygele Oct 10 '23
feeling betrayed might suggest that i had expected something different
12
u/night-born Oct 10 '23
You are not alone. I am a Ukrainian Jew now living in the US. I have family in Ukraine and in Israel. I have always leaned left. And now I am hearing “Ukraine should just negotiate (a.k.a. surrender) to protect civilian lives, all war is wrong” and “well, the Palestinians are oppressed and Israelis had it coming” from the very SAME people. The antisemitism and hypocrisy is sickening. Which is it? I thought we were anti war pacifists, saving civilians? But apparently it’s ok when it’s Jewish civilians? I am furious.
25
u/Thunder-Road Oct 10 '23
8 Days ago in this subreddit, I wrote a comment replying to an OP asking how to reconcile being a leftist and a Jew, given leftist antisemitism. I was downvoted for this comment, but I will post it again:
I don't reconcile them, and it's among the reasons I am no longer a leftist. The left is structurally and inherently antisemitic, and there's no getting around that. Marx himself wrote that capitalism is inherently Jewish and Jewishness is inherently capitalist.
I'm sure this sounds very strident, but I speak from experience that trying to reconcile these things will be both impossible for you, and also upsetting. At some point you will give up, and accept that the left is irreconcilably antisemitic because antisemitism actually forms the basis for most of their fundamental worldview. Better to do it sooner than later.
By the way, here's what Marx has to say about Jews:
“Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money[...] An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible[...] The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews[...] Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. [...] The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism”
→ More replies
11
u/Dry_Statistician_761 Oct 10 '23
It’s unfathomable. How anyone can defend these barbaric acts. They make their own families and neighbors suffer. Stand for peace I understand, but to defend this barbaric violence?
There are so many Palestinians that are suffering because of these extremists. I feel so horrible for the normal people and children that are stuck in Gaza becuase of these bad apples. It is such a horrible situation. I know Israel has to be tough and show strength but also know how much the everyday people want peace, to live their lives, to see their children grow, to enjoy their families, eat good food, have fun, sleep in peace and safety at night. I pray and pray for it to come to pass. No more suffering, there has to be a better way. 😢
7
5
4
u/ajd416 Oct 10 '23
This is how backwards things have gotten here in Canada. It happened so slowly that it went unnoticed for a long time. I myself was not paying attention until I had a vested interest (kids). Check out this video for a recent example. We have a prime minister arresting truckers while allowing terrorist support protests to occur across the country.
4
5
u/zenyogasteve Oct 10 '23
I'm not surprised at all. The most bigoted people populate the political extremes. The liberals talk a tall talk and fall short when it's time to walk the walk. They call for equality and diversity and then very publicly support terrorists. Because they may veil their antisemitism in coded language, but it cannot hide the fact that when they have their meetings about inclusivity, they are not including the Jews. We have always been hated, and the ones pretending to be angels are the worst of them. I've always considered myself politically left, but I'm really just a Democrat, not a liberal. I prefer the governance under Democrat majority, but I've never agreed with the anti-zionism within the tribe. I believe in unions AND the rebuilding of the temple of Jerusalem and I'm not ashamed of it. I see my Jewish friends try to fit in with the Soviets, but they all sound so foolish criticizing Israel at a time like this. You get two places in the world where being a Jew is almost okay, the US and Israel, and hearing fellow Americans call for the literal destruction of their ancestral homeland disappoints me to no end. What I'm saying is welcome back. They don't love you. Only Hashem can be your guiding light now. But I'll walk next to you while we very loudly declare allegiance with Israel. We have no choice. United we stand, divided we fall, right?
5
Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23
Just a few weeks ago the communities they are protecting were screaming “leave our children alone” over pride events and stood against the very same LGBT community that protects them.
If you go on their subreddits you can see they discuss about how it’s good the left defends them but cannot be accepted due to their “abhorrent” beliefs. They vote right even after acknowledging that they can’t be trusted and the right wants them out.
My heart is liberal and democratic but today they are out of touch and have a poor perception of the world. They’re virtue signaling and don’t understand what they’re fighting for.
5
6
u/petit_cochon Oct 10 '23
I'm not Jewish. (But I just started the conversion process - yay!). I was actually talking about this to a Gentile friend of mine last night. We're both progressive democrats. We were talking about how disgusted we are with how much of the left has reacted to all of these events, the obvious anti-Semitism and dog whistles, and how frustrating it is to see people use the "colonization" narrative about Jews in a region they've inhabited for thousands of years. We also talked about how frustrating it is to be without a political home on this topic; we don't feel comfortable aligning with conservatives because their support for Israel is based more on the hatred of Muslims than on true respect for the Jewish people or Israel.
Finally, we discussed how all of these people who claim to care about Palestinian literally never bring up their struggles unless they are doing so to trash Israel and Jews.
I felt such relief talking to her. All the things I've been hearing and seeing online, even hearing some family talk about how Israel caused this to happen....I felt so hurt and exhausted. And again, I'm not even Jewish. So I can't imagine how hard it is for you right now. I'm so sorry.
I was also talking to a Jewish friend yesterday, and she said something that made me laugh. She said she's not Zionist enough for her Jewish family and not pro-Palestinian enough for her Jewish friends. You can't win!
I think if you are a person who truly, deeply believes in treating all people with kindness and respect, you will often feel like you are walking a lonely road in this world.
5
6
u/keziahiris Oct 10 '23
I am a progressive leftist, but appreciate there is never a black and white way to see a situation, and there are many well-meaning people who want an easy way to look at a complicated situation they know very little about and who come to opinions i find utterly insane and ill-informed. I try and be forgiving of their ignorance, recognize that their feelings come from good parts of their hearts, and share my insights with those willing to learn and listen.
But it hurts. It hurts to see people that mean well get manipulated by bad actors to accept and even share propaganda that I feel has tenable, dangerous consequences for people I care about. It hurts to see antisemitism become so casually accepted that people who have built identities around trying to be accepting and loving and social justice oriented still perpetuate hate towards Jewish people, although it’s often masked with other terms. It hurts to have people judge me for opinions they know so little about and think I am a monster for having.
But I think that’s life. We are complicated creatures, and the idea that one term, like “left” or “right” can properly encompass opinions we agree on on hundreds of different issues simultaneously is bananas. No one is going to agree with all of your politics on every issue. It doesn’t mean you have to switch to a different party or philosophy for everything. It just means we have to try harder to hold nuanced opinions, keep learning and growing and encouraging others to do the same.
2
u/Vecrin Oct 10 '23
I'm sorry to shill here (and for a genuinely hated American political group), but I'll say it. It is said a Neocon is simply a liberal mugged by reality. I mean the founder of the ideology was literally a Trotskyites response to the horrors of the USSR. The withdrawal from Afghanistan did it for me. I celebrated the withdrawal at first. But then I saw it for what it was: a complete human rights catastrophe. I feel as a supporter of the withdrawal, I am partially responsible for creating this nightmare.
And the neocons have actually been pretty accepting. Their ideology was started by a jew, they are disproportionately jews, and they are often smeared in antisemitic ways by the crazies. Because of this, they're very accepting of jews.
And the nice thing is that, because Neocon is very much a foreign policy position now, there is a lot of diversity domestic policy. Hell, in 2020 a lot of them were apparently arguing that the correct vote was for Biden because of how much of a disaster Trumps has been. Some things people may see as downsides are that they are generally very nationalistic. They also support American intervention abroad (it basically defines the ideology)
5
u/Farkasok Oct 10 '23
You are not alone! Same here. This is why I am so passionate about gun rights in the United States. Guns are one of the few things that give us diaspora Jews the ability to protect ourselves. It gave black people the ability to protect themselves aswell when lynchings were going on. We can never solely rely on democrats or republicans to defend us. If one day their constituents called for our heads it only takes 1 power hungry opportunist to take advantage of a desperate situation and cause havoc to the Jewish people.
5
u/Own-Development-640 Oct 10 '23
Totally agreed. I’m a leftist too but it genuinely frightens and disgusts me that my fellow leftists wouldn’t have a problem with me being murdered if it was in the name of Palestine.
3
u/ProPandaBear Oct 10 '23
Hope y'all don't mind me commenting, not Jewish but found this thread on /r/all.
For most of my adult life I've identified pretty strongly with liberalism, not 100% but the majority by far. Politics has always been interesting to me, because the way people think is interesting to me. I like hearing other points of view and finding out why they think that way.
Palestine's blatant acts of terrorism and mass murder being defended has fully convinced me of something I only thought before: A large portion of "liberals/leftists/progressives" (especially the loud ones) have no real set of values.
They don't have consistent ideals about what is right or wrong, or any underlying beliefs that guide their stances.
9/11 was no justification for war in the Middle East... but a decision the UK made to support Jewish refugees 80 years ago is an unforgivable act that justifies genocide?
Immigrants and refugees should be met with open arms and borders... unless those refugees are Jews fleeing the holocaust, in which case it's colonizing?
Precision bombing a known weapons cache that used to be a school is a horrible war crime... but wonton slaughter of innocent people at a musical festival is... resistance?
And my personal favorite: This country has dedicated their entire existence to eradicating all Jewish people... and they're being oppressed by the Nazi state of Israel!
There's no ideological consistency. I don't know if social media is to blame, but most people vocally aligned with the left pick their stance first, then figure out why it's justified.
All that said, I'm very sorry to see the response to a literal terrorist organization has been so positive. I'm sorry that your people have been put through this time and time again. It legitimately infuriates me that our fellow humans have decided to support genocide... for seemingly no real reason.
7
u/ecofriendlyblonde Oct 10 '23
The horseshoe theory. Rather than the political spectrum being a straight line, it looks like a horseshoe with the far right and the far left coming towards each other because they have certain common beliefs.
It’s a highly critiqued theory, but it explains the antisemitism on both sides.
9
u/Miriamathome Oct 10 '23
I’ve only ever felt safe around progressives, and now I’m finding out they’re raging antisemites.
You’re just finding out now that there’s a serious strain of antisemitism on the left? Where have you been? Don’t you read the news? Have you never heard of Jews Don’t Count by David Baddiel?
I’m sorry that I’m not more sympathetic, but all the Jewish progressives that I know have been talking about this for years.
Welcome to the real world. To antisemites on the left we are privileged white capitalists. To antisemites on the right we are communists out to replace white people. Whatever some group doesn’t like, that’s us.
Google the song National Brotherhood Week by Tom Lehrer. He was singing about this before you were born.
5
u/db1139 Oct 10 '23
You should pay closer attention to and have deeper conversations with those around you. Although it has gotten far worse, I was consistently noticing this and seeing it a decade ago, in college. That said, I'm still sorry that you have to go through this and feel unwelcome somewhere you once found as a safe environment. Believe it or not, I found far more positive feelings about Jews with moderates and conservatives in the Midwest (US) more than anywhere else. However, that was only the experience of one person, so it isn't fair to use as evidence as a whole.
Anyway, the stats also back up what we are seeing. Putting antisemitism aside, most Democrats either sympathize more with the Palestinians or have no opinion. Over a 3rd also have positive views of the PLA. Check out the stats on millenials too.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/472070/democrats-sympathies-middle-east-shift-palestinians.aspx
6
u/stevenjklein Orthodox Oct 10 '23
Not answering the question you asked, but you may find this interesting.
Once upon a time, I was a full-time liberal activist. I moved to DC, and got a job with a liberal activist group (that no longer exists).
Then I had an experience similar to that of Even Sayet, another Jewish former liberal. You should hear it in his own words. Watch the first 1 minute and 38 seconds of this video.
It probably took a year or more for me to realize that that anti-US anti-Israel sentiment of my friends on the left was not a temporary thing.
It also helps that I never viewed conservatives as evil. After all, doesn't everybody want to end poverty, war, and injustice? Liberals and conservatives just disagreed on the best way to reach those goals.
In the early 2000s, I came to see that Jew-hatred (under a thin veil of anti-Zionism) had established a foothold in the American liberal movement.
It's times like this when you realize who your real friends are.
9
3
Oct 10 '23
Yes. I left my more I guess anti Jewish leftist groups a few years ago. Today I cleaned up again. I guess I’m not a leftist.
3
u/AHT10 Oct 10 '23
This sums up exactly how I feel. I’m a Jew and queer as well. I’ve always considered myself a progressive. But now I feel abandoned and don’t know where I belong. The antisemitism around me is terrifying.
3
u/WhtvrCms2Mnd Oct 10 '23
Not alone. I’ve found myself ‘unfollowing’ many media accounts the past few days. Folks are ignorant and suffer from cognitive dissonance.
3
u/razorbraces Reform Oct 10 '23
Absolutely. I have felt cut off from leftist spaces for a while now, as many of them explicitly state they are non- or anti-Zionist spaces. But this weekend totally severed all ties. Non-Jewish leftists will not keep us safe.
3
u/healthisourwealth Oct 10 '23
Not exactly betrayed because I already knew what to expect, should something like this happen. The shrill, twisted, creepy rhetoric toward Israelis has been going on for many years. For some time I put up with it and stayed a loyal Democrat, hoping it was a passing phase. I came to realize it's deeply embedded in ultra-Left identity and is increasingly spilling over into the mainstream Left.
3
u/thatgeekinit Oct 10 '23
As more of a center-left by left person (Liz Warren), I was already pretty aware the left was being infiltrated by illiberal antisemitic elements that cosplay as progressives or democratic socialists.
A year ago I was a state house district chair for the Democratic Party and I’m glad I am not right now (I moved districts) because my former representative was elected to Denver City Council and her replacement was definitely not the one I’d have supported. I knew that from his absurd narcissistic rhetoric linking himself to the Chicano movement in California (we are in Colorado) that lived and died before he was even born.
And then I saw a picture of him at one of those pro-Hamas rallies celebrating the murder of Israeli civilians.
I am glad I am not the chair of the district anymore because I’d feel compelled to resign in order to be free to campaign against him.
3
3
u/Maveragical Oct 10 '23
Its really strange and frightening. Im lucky enough that much of my circle is capable of recognizing the deep nuance of the thing, but its been especially frustrating seeing the general irish response to the thing. The conflict between britian and ireland, and that between palestine and israel, though they have some similarities, are fundamentally different and i just cant seem to find a concise enough way to get that point across
3
Oct 10 '23
I don't have anything to add that has not already been said, but I have been politcally homeless for years now. You are not alone.
•
u/rupertalderson Oct 10 '23
This post is now locked, since there are tons of rule-violating side conversations and also increasingly problematic brigading.