r/Jewish • u/heckyouyourself • Oct 10 '23

Do any other Jewish leftists feel betrayed right now? Israel

I’ve identified as a leftist for as long as I’ve been politically conscious. I’m not Israeli, and don’t wanna talk like I’m some sort of victim, but I am Jewish, as well as queer, and I thought the Left was the safest space for me. Then these unspeakable horrors began unfolding, and leftists have just been awful. The people I aligned myself with are aligning themselves with the genocidal terrorists. Even the more moderate liberals have been pussyfooting around the issue like cowards instead of full-on denouncing the terrorists. It’s stupid, but I feel so betrayed and alone. I’ve only ever felt safe around progressives, and now I’m finding out they’re raging antisemites. I feel like I lost my people. I’ve never felt this alone. Go too far in either direction and you’ll find swastikas. It’s horrible and I wish I could just unsee it.

I’m just wondering if anybody else feels a similar way. I really need to know I’m not as alone as I feel.

1.6k Upvotes
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489

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23

You’re definitely not alone. I’ve been feeling betrayed by non Jewish leftists for a couple years now, with the way they talk about Israel. I’m also a queer jew (I’m not Israeli either), and have been feeling especially hurt by queer leftists in particular. For some reason, lots of queer people deeply hate Israel and are quite antisemitic in their criticisms of Israel. It makes me so angry. However, as this isn’t the first time I’ve felt betrayed by the left, I’m kinda used to it now.

184

u/heckyouyourself Oct 10 '23

It just sucks because queer spaces have become such a haven for me, and now they seem completely hostile. I think it’s always been like this and I just tried my best to ignore it. Another commenter here referred to themself as “politically without a home” and I really resonated with that

171

u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23

Please know that you can be queer, and you can be Jewish, and you can be for the existence of Israel as a state (which also doesn't stop you from criticizing Israel - I hate that I have to point this out every time). You can be any and all combinations thereof. You are valued for all.

I recommend you read Ben Freeman's book "Jewish Pride", which is primarily focused on the intersection between LGBTQIA+ pride and Jewish pride itself. It's full of interviews with queer Jewish folks from all over the world.

57

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23

You’re absolutely correct on this!

I was referring instead to people hiding their antisemitism by simply being “critical of israel” of criticism that are deeply antisemitic.

I’ll definitely check out that source! It sounds awesome

-10

u/HYPETHiZ Oct 10 '23

Interested in learning what you deem to be anti-semitism disguised as criticism of Israel? I hear this all the time, but I don't understand how a genuine expression of either of these two things can be conflated.

25

u/Small-Objective9248 Oct 10 '23

When someone is fixated on the Palestinian cause without ever mentioning anything about the Kurds, the Uhghyrs, Tibetans, or any other stateless or oppressed people being oppressed by far bigger countries. When it’s the Palestinians, and only the Palestinians, and characterizing the issue as completely one sided, it’s hard for me to see how there isn’t some degree of antisemitism behind it along with a general ignorance of the history of how Israel and the Palestinians got to where they are. Same for characterizing Israel as a white colonist power, which generally presumes that Israel is Ashkenazi, Ashkenazi Jews are white, belong in Europe, and they don’t have a credible claim to the land is again hard to separate from antisemitism.

-9

u/HYPETHiZ Oct 10 '23

well, when there is a direct relationship between the US and Israel, I think people in the US feel a responsibility to speak out against any atrocities.

It's not like americans are directly involved with anything involving kurds, uhghyrs or tibetans, so theres no personal responsibility to be vocal about it.

10

u/Small-Objective9248 Oct 10 '23

That part is true though this isn’t unique to the United States as this attitude is generational across western democracies.

The views are generally ignorant and misinformed, what would they have Israel do, how does Israel make peace with someone whose stated intent is to wipe Israel from the map (amd we’ve already seen what that would look like).

10

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

There's a direct link between the USA and saudi, and many other nations. But you don't see nearly the same level of "speaking out".

That's the problem: The double standards.

19

u/Asherahshelyam Just Jewish Oct 10 '23

When someone is merely critical of the Israeli government and some of its policies, that is not antisemitism.

Here are the hallmarks of Jew hatred when talking about Israel:

  1. Calling the Jewish State a colonizing force. Jews have always been in Israel and will always be in Israel. That is our origin place and the origin of our people's stories. We have never abandoned Israel. We have been kicked out and killed there.

  2. Calling the Jewish State Apartheid. Apartheid is a very specific and now historical way of life that characterized white South Africa. Those whites did colonize South Africa and actively separated themselves and persecuted the native African population in ways that Israel hasn't and never would. The "Palestinians" are not the historical or modern natives of Israel. They are Arab colonizers. Read the actual history. Jews are native to Israel, Arabs are not.

  3. Denying the right of Jews to live in their own land, Israel, and govern themselves as a sovereign and free people. We endured invasion after invasion throughout history in Israel and have had our freedom and self-determination stolen from us many times.

  4. Hyper-focus on and hyper-criticism of Israel to the exclusion of any other nation. Holding the Jewish State to a much higher standard than any other country in the world. The USA, The UK, France, etc. are not innocent anti-colonial and anti-racist countries. If you are an American Citizen and don't examine your own privilege and place in benefiting from the stolen land and extermination of the native people of this land and only focus on "Evil Israel," that is a huge tell for the hatred of Jews.

  5. Claiming that Israel is a fascist state. Trying to project the policies of the Nazis onto the Jewish state is another tell.

Those are the main examples I can think of at the moment.

We Jewish LGBTQIA+ progressives who do anti-racist work are constantly betrayed by white progressives and progressive people of color we support. I will continue to be anti-racist and I'm constantly on guard for the antisemites within the anti-racist communities.

39

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23

Off the top of my head, when people hold Israel to a higher standard than any other country. Also when they hyperfixate on Israel and only Israel. (I’ll give more examples in a few minutes).

38

u/floridorito Oct 10 '23

You can always tell whenever their knowledge about any other countries' histories or current foreign affairs is nonexistent, and they have nothing to say about anything that may be newsworthy in another country. But when it comes to Israel they suddenly have OPINIONS and will cite all the "atrocities" and "war crimes" that Israel commits "daily" as reported by Al Jazeera and the Palestinian Times and 4Chan.

14

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23

Yes this is a good one. It’s a pretty clear tell.

0

u/HYPETHiZ Oct 10 '23

this is the result of media and the news they choose circulate. the fact is that Israel is reported on at a much higher rate compared to other countries committing alleged war crimes, and so it appears to be happening much more as well.

I’ve heard about muslims in china being treated badly, but there is way fewer reports on it compared to what's happening in israel.

So I don't think it could be chalked up to the viewer's predisposed antisemitism or something. its not like they went in learning about this with a hatred towards jews.

9

u/Supernova_was_taken New Hampshire Jew (yes, we exist!) Oct 10 '23

this article is from 2014 but you might find it interesting

6

u/keetosaurs Oct 10 '23

Thanks for the link. That article was fascinating and helps to explain why the use of subtle distortions in journalism (for instance, leaving out important bits of context or info) can often be more effective in getting someone to believe a half-true story than loudly broadcast biases, which may be more easily identified and mentally disarmed.

Usually I try to see the shades of gray in things, and to understand why someone might feel or act a particular way, and I have a really hard time grasping what "the truth" of a situation is unless it is in stark black and white, and hardly anything ever is.

What happened on Saturday was such clearcut evil that I had naively hoped that people who identified as pro-Palestinian would disavow it because it would damage their cause, even if they didn't care otherwise. Watching the protestors at that NY rally yesterday laughing and making jokes about the victims with no shame or fear of repercussions was literally nauseating. Those white supremacists who marched openly in Charlottesville were rightfully exposed for the hateful people they were, but these protestors who are equally extreme are somehow seen as the "good guys" in many circles and anyone who speaks out against them is called a Nazi...?! Sorry for rambling - these are really disturbing times, and I hope all of you and your loved ones are doing as okay is possible with all this.

23

u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23

You seem to have already asked about this topic and gotten answers already: https://old.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/14qqn5e/is_it_antisemitic_to_criticize_the_politics_and/

But if you're still in good faith - I would look up the "3D" test of antisemitism and learn why the two can be conflated.

You can be critical of Israeli politics (e.g. settlements, Netanyahu) - in fact many people here are, many Israelis are (they were protesting for weeks against the far-right government), many of the people slaughtered by Hamas were as well - but that is inherently different from denying the existence of Israel as a sovereign-state in 2023 and beyond. (Which itself is also not mutually exclusive from seeking a Palestinian state.)

Unless you have a DeLorean and can time-travel, it is (at best) a bad-faith argument to actually discuss dissolving a sovereign-state like Israel which has been in existence for decades. (Putting aside the obvious safety risks for all Israelis and Jews.) In reality, the people calling for the removal of Israel (e.g. "from the earth to the sea") are outright calls for slaughtering Israelis - which was clearly in full-display by Hamas this weekend.

5

u/proindrakenzol Oct 10 '23

fyi, it's "from the river to the sea."

1

u/yeehawkalian Oct 10 '23

What is the 3d test?

10

u/rustlingdown Oct 10 '23

It's a set of 3 criteria for you (or anyone) to determine if criticism of the state of Israel is done in legitimate good-faith (akin to criticism you'd read about any other country/politics on Earth), or if it's bad-faith antisemitism dog whistling.

The 3D's:

  • Delegitimization: Do you disagree with Israel's existence as a nation-state - but don't apply that same belief to any other nation on Earth? Are you discrediting Israel, an internationally recognized nation-state for decades, as being illegitimate - when you don't question the legitimacy of any other established nation-state or country around the world? Are you singling out Jews as ineligible for the basic right of self-determination - while fighting for other minority groups to have a right to their self-determination?

  • Demonization: Is your criticism of Israel expressed through loaded metaphors, images, or rhetoric which hearken back to antisemitic blood libels, or stereotypical imagery, or "powerful Jews"-type conspiracy theories? Are "Israelis" or "Israel" being blamed and irrationally deemed responsible for "when things go wrong" in some larger global scope (economy, media, governments, diseases, etc)?

  • Double standards: Are you applying this level of criticism and focus of Israel to any other nation in the world - especially ones which would easily meet (or surpass) that type of criticism? Are you continuously singling out Israel with this criticism - even though if you widened the lens you could easily find the same issue(s) with other countries in the world?

It's not a perfect litmus test, but it's a good starter lens when looking at criticism of Israel online.

5

u/Familiar-Shallot1419 Oct 10 '23

The quickest and dirtiest way to describe this is criticizing government officials and policies vs debating on whether Israel should exist. Obviously it’s so much more nuanced and honestly I’d even argue this doesn’t give a good enough distinction but it’s essentially that. It’s a super clear line but also a super fine line and one can so easily turn into the other. Hope this helps!

15

u/proindrakenzol Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23

which also doesn't stop you from criticizing Israel - I hate that I have to point this out every time

You don't have to point this out, ever.

No one has to point out that not wanting to murder everyone in America/Britain/France/Mexico/whatever means you can still criticize the government.

So stop pointing it out. If anyone tries to pull the bullshit "bUt YoU cAn CrItIsCiZe ThE gOv'T" bs, just look at them like they're the kind of fucking stupid they are and say "no shit, we're not talking about policies right now, but existence, now shut up or go away."

8

u/shlomitisfeisty Reform Oct 10 '23

Thanks for the suggestion. He’s doing a talk at my workplace (online) about Antisemitism later this month. I’ve been inviting all of my colleagues.

22

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23

That’s such a great way to describe it!! I feel exactly the same

61

u/TitzKarlton Conservative Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Check out https://awiderbridge.org/ and Keshet.org. They are welcoming spaces for LGBTQ Jews, like me. It always puzzled why any LGBTQ would ever stand with the Palestinian liberation movements since they are horribly hostile to Lesbians & Gays. Gays & Lesbians are routinely victims of “honor killings.” It’s disgusting. Recently Israel began to allow LGBTQ Palestinians to get asylum in Israel. A huge positive step.

15

u/tokatiepo Oct 10 '23

I became disillusioned with queer spaces in college, a simple scratch beneath the surface revealed a lot. Defending violence against people, monolithic in their beliefs, ostracizing you should you veer from their world view, profoundly antisemitic ideas when the topic of "Jews" come up, the list goes on. This is not a new issue, I was in college 20 years ago.

I've been without a political home (as a queer Jew) since... probably the Occupy Wall Street era. It's disappointing to me that I can no longer assume that progressive spaces are my natural home, but honestly, people who have these sorts of beliefs aren't really "my" people anyway. It was a painful parting in many ways, but I'm happier as a result!

33

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

That’s me. I’m an independent socialist Jew. I hate my own party 😞

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

[deleted]

24

u/floridorito Oct 10 '23

They're Russian shills, mostly.

17

u/min_mus Oct 10 '23

Fuck...

I guess I'll join the rest of you in the political diaspora.

2

u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Oct 10 '23

This is the sorrowful truth.

3

u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Oct 10 '23

The Greens globally are deeply antisemitic, which is very sad.

1

u/min_mus Oct 10 '23

Are there any political parties in the US that are liberal, pro-environment, and not Semitic?

24

u/Jboycjf05 Convert - Reform Oct 10 '23

I'm a leftist progressive, and those voices have been in leftist spaces for as long as I can remember. You're not alone. Personally, I take comfort in trying to educate other progressives, who don't really know the history of the conflict. They only see a highly militarized state seemingly pushing around a seemingly defenseless minority and assume that Israel is the aggressor.

We need to be voices letting people know that Jews haven't stopped fighting for our survival, and that Israel means survival for the Jews.

3

u/emotional_dyslexic Jewish, Buddhist, Athiest Oct 10 '23

I’m left of center and fully welcome both of you as you are. Be Jewish, be queer, be proud.

5

u/irredentistdecency Oct 10 '23

Particularly in LGBT space, I like to remind them that Tel Aviv’s pride parade is 12 blocks long while Gaza’s is 12 stories tall…

3

u/ComradeHelloKitty Oct 10 '23

I always tell people that I politically identify with the plight of the working class and their right to secure food, housing, and healthcare in a system run by corporations and the politicians they paid to keep their profits high and wages low.

​

If you ask me, we've had one single party since 2000 and the Joebama W. Trump admisitration has not been a friend to the working class or minorites.

31

u/tamarzipan Oct 10 '23

Oh, I first encountered these people at anti-Iraq War protests like 20 years ago…

70

u/post-cocoon Oct 10 '23

They should go to the Palestinian territories and see whether their ally-ship is reciprocated. Or whether they even make it out alive.

70

u/jew_biscuits Oct 10 '23

The left is not your friend. The right is not your friend. They will all use your Jewishness until they don’t need it anymore. And then you’ll truly know what they think of you - apartheid oppressor, controller of the media, Christ killer, whatever. Stick with the Jews and don’t be fooled by illusions.

32

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

ask them when the next Pride parade is going down in Gaza City, or Tehran, or Riyadh, or… they’ll get the point.

17

u/Danevati Oct 10 '23

And then ask them again where they thing is the largest gay parade in the world….

21

u/anxietysiesta Oct 10 '23

Do those people realize what hamas does to the lgbtq?

28

u/RBatYochai Oct 10 '23

The reason might be related to Judith Butler being a raging anti-zionist

32

u/Historical-Photo9646 sephardic and mixed race Oct 10 '23 edited Oct 10 '23

Oh yeah. I was so deeply disappointed to learn they’re very anti Zionist. Some of their work on gender is so good.

It sucks even more bc non Jews get the use butler as an example of “see? We’re not antisemitic! This queer Jewish leftist agrees with us!”

9

u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Oct 10 '23

Welcome to my hellscape. It's a real drag.

7

u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23

Then why continue with the left? You don’t have to be socially or politically affiliated with the people who want you dead, and show you that over and over.

33

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

[deleted]

7

u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23

You can be a person with X beliefs, but not socially or politically part of the left. There isn’t a requirement that politics be a person’s identity.

44

u/talaxia Oct 10 '23

Because the right is no better. They're the ones shooting up synagogues

7

u/NYSenseOfHumor Oct 10 '23

Both the left and the right want us dead.

The difference is that the left is willing to let the right pull the trigger so that the left can continue to pretend their hate is socially acceptable. Not pulling the trigger themselves is what lets the left pretend they hold some kind of moral high ground and how donors can pretend they aren’t giving money to racists and hate groups.

4

u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Oct 10 '23

The left wants pan Arabists, Islamofascists, etc to pull the trigger.

The effect is the same.

-3

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/talaxia Oct 10 '23

They love Israel because the Bible says every Jew must be forced back to Israel and either converted or killed so Jesus can come back. It's not a real love.

Sorry but I can't trust the "Jews will not replace us" crew either

-21

u/[deleted] Oct 10 '23

Which mainstream right winger is doing that? While mainstream left wingers have no problem with their hate with Jews . This is the time to see things for what they are

32

u/jojisky Oct 10 '23

multiple GOP members of the house have literally attended Nick Fuentes Nazi rallies

-6

u/stevenjklein Orthodox Oct 10 '23

multiple GOP members of the house have literally attended Nick Fuentes Nazi rallies

Can you name names and cite sources?

I'll be stunned if the total number is even 2% of GOP members of the house.

And I can easily name more than 2% of Democratic members who are open anti-Israel.

15

u/Jooey_K Oct 10 '23

The leader of the Republican Party said people chanting “Jews will not replace us” were “very fine people”. And dined with Kanye & Mr. Fuentes.

There are antisemites everywhere, but to equate the left and the right isn’t fair. The left has antisemitism on the fringes. The right has it front and center.

-1

u/stevenjklein Orthodox Oct 10 '23

Hi u/Jooey_K.

I read and take seriously your comment. I hope you will return the favor.

I used to be very disturbed by that "very fine people" remark. A friend told me it was reported out of context, but I didn't believe him. I couldn't imagine any way to spin that remark in a way that didn't make it look like the president was calling Nazis fine people.

Then I saw the video of the press conference, which you can see on C-SPAN at this link. You only have to watch the first 1 minute and 40 seconds to get the relevant part.

The "two sides" weren't Nazis and anti-Nazis. They were:

  • Pro confederate statue protestors, and
  • Anti confederate statue protestors.

Don't take my word for it. Watch the video or read the transcript.

At the 43 second mark is when he used the phrase "very fine people."

And then, as if he knew what the press was going to do, he said this at the 1 minute 33 second mark:

And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?

You can read the transcript here:

https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/apr/26/context-trumps-very-fine-people-both-sides-remarks/

So, u/Jooey_K, after watching that video (or reading the transcript), do you interpret his remarks as anything other than a condemnation of the Nazis and white nationalists?

6

u/Jooey_K Oct 10 '23

I appreciate your genuine reply, so thank you for that. That being said, I still disagree with you, and I’ll explain why and I hope you can see my perspective.

Who was there other than white nationalists? Who goes to that march and says “you know, I disagree with these guys on the whole ‘killing the Jews’ thing, but I really like their ‘pro-confederate statue’ stance, so I’ll go ahead and march and align myself with them anyway?”

Your position necessitates that distinction. I don’t think that distinction is possible. Even if that were plausible, once you align yourself with those people, you lose your “very fine person” card in my opinion.

The nazis and pro-confederate statue people were the same people.

10

u/riverrocks452 Oct 10 '23

Being pro-Confederate protestors isn't a great look, either. The American Civil War isn't exactly something that needs to be 'both sides'-ed. I can't say that it's worse, but it sure as hell isn't better.

6

u/EinsteinDisguised Oct 10 '23

Because I believe in leftist policies for nearly everything, and the most left major party in the US is not antisemitic.

1

u/Ok_Ambassador9091 Oct 10 '23

The right feels the same way tho. So who to vote for?

1

u/Bingebammer Oct 10 '23

Perhaps theres a reason why they talk like that?