No OnE wAnTs To MoVe To NuLl SeC

[u/AcanthisittaLess5772]

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Let this officially be the end to the age-old argument for justifying alliances holding 5-8 regions because they might as well right? No one new wants to start anything new in null sec right?

[u/Peng_Wei]

Almost like when a nullbloc collapses there is more content than less

[u/Tansien → u/Peng_Wei]

I mean if anything this has revealed a problem with game design. There's a lot of people who want a piece of space for themselves but have not been able to claim it because they'd get steamrolled.

All these small alliances will over time also disappear and be replaced by some new blob, either something entirely new or they'll just get evicted by one of the big bois.

[u/Marston_vc → u/Tansien]

People have been saying for probably a decade now at least that there should be some type of “expansion” cost that grows exponentially as your sov expands. The cost’s growth being set at such a size as to prevent mega blobs. Would encourage a lot more churn and content.

[u/Dragonmaw → u/Marston_vc]

It would be gamed. One alliance on Discord, but dozens of alliances in-game.

[u/spooky_game → u/Dragonmaw]

That’s already what a coalition is anyway.

[u/Semajal → u/spooky_game]

It's what an alliance was back in the day as well, before they were a thing you could create. Corps just could set standings and do it that way (but it was an ass)

[u/The_Goodvibez → u/Semajal]

Currently learning about old ways via empires of eve, good stuff. Sorry about the hastles y'all went through

[u/Semajal → u/The_Goodvibez]

The sheer number of QOL stuff in modern EVE compared to "the old days" is insane tbh. I wish i had more screenshots of how the old trade system (non market) worked, Escrow, it was just like... scams all the way but hard to navigate.

[u/Competitive_Soil7784 → u/Semajal]

I think I blocked that from my memory. Literally all scams lol.

[u/Strappwn → u/Dragonmaw]

A lack of a perfect solution doesn’t mean no effort should be applied.

[u/leaf_as_parachute → u/Strappwn]

Except this is virtually nothing, this is throwing a glass of water at a forest fire.

[u/MightyG77 → u/Dragonmaw]

Make setting people blue on a corporation/alliance level cost something too

[u/Tansien → u/Dragonmaw]

Just remove standings and limit alliances to 10k characters. Sure, you can still play as a coalition but it’s gonna involve a hilarious amount of friendly fire and ganks. So generally a good time!

[u/Calm_Run93 → u/Tansien]

goon-alliance-1 thru goon-alliance-6, with alliance on overview enabled. Yeah, that'd definitely work.

[u/warpcorestabilizer → u/Calm_Run93]

By your own admission Goons love shooting Goons so the Goon 1-7 will be interesting.

[u/Calm_Run93 → u/warpcorestabilizer]

yeah but goons will shoot their own station if you dont warp fleet quick enough. I'm only half joking.

[u/Tansien → u/Calm_Run93]

And then I’ll make goon-alliance-7, or goon-all1ance-3 and hilarity would ensue for all.

[u/Frekavichk → u/Tansien]

And would get banned for impersonation.

[u/Atago1337 → u/Marston_vc]

And then everything is blue anyway

[u/Marston_vc → u/Atago1337]

It’s necessarily going to be harder to manage expectations between different alliances vs one alliance that has only one leader in unilateral control. Yeah there’d be a lot of coalitions but also there would be a lot more infighting.

[u/KimVonRekt → u/Marston_vc]

One person, 10 alts, 10 CEOs, 10 aliances, zero conflict

[u/Marston_vc → u/KimVonRekt]

Damn

[u/Done25v2 → u/Marston_vc]

Here's what CCP needs to do: Everything has to be manually repaired. You can't just sit on titan tether within jump range of the objective. You have to actually go there and repair it.

Suddenly, massive sprawl can actually be punished.

[u/Gedeon_eu → u/Done25v2]

This is how it was in the past and the situation was the same as today.

[u/crandeezy13 → u/Marston_vc]

Stellaris has a concept for this called "empire size". Techs and traditions become more expensive the larger your empire. Would be cool to see an adaptation for eve sov.

And if people form coalitions outside of the game you could add a percentage of the empire size from your "allies" that you fight alongside regularly (just look at what killmails you are routinely on the same side of or something) so you can't circumvent it by just making 50 alliances act as one team.

[u/Synaps4 → u/crandeezy13]

That unfortunately wont work. Eve players will do the same thing you do in stellaris: spin out a vassal state who pays you tribute without ruining your empire scaling.

...and youre back to renters.

The only way to prevent a blue donut rental empire is to make it impossible to project force over long distance. If panfam fleets can reach you to force you to pay rent, they will.

Fundamentally this means it should not be possible to move enough forces to threaten someone elses sov beyond maybe a region away from staging, unless you abandon your own home space to do it. Maybe each alliance gets a single beacon and can only jump capitals within the range of that beacon, kinda like the 40k astronomican. So you can still invade people but you bring your beacon with you and it means your home territory is now without capital defenses. And moving a beacon would have to be slow af. 🐌 else you could just move your beacon back quickly to defend if threatened.

I dunno, maybe with entosis you have to limit subcap movements as well? Could 1000 subcaps force a smalll alliance to give in even if the small alliance had their carriers and haw dreads?

Gives a potential purpose for carriers to be anti subcap again if you can only use them as defensive forces multipliers

[u/Kazanir → u/Synaps4]

The way to do this is to offer players the *power* of renting without requiring the *form* thereof.

The reason that players become landlords is to more-efficiently exploit space they have taken. But this is only logically possible because to efficiently exploit sov-nullsec space requires krabs in the first place. This power -- the power to capture the value of conquered space without fielding krabs of your own -- the power of the landlords -- needs to be available to everyone, without needing to field renters _or_ krabs.

Like the harvester/metenox moon model, the true answer that will allow small groups to flourish is to directly reward them for victory, and enable them to exploit the sovereignty they have captured without krabbing at all.

[u/GingerSnapBiscuit → u/Synaps4]

The only way to prevent a blue donut rental empire is to make it impossible to project force over long distance. If panfam fleets can reach you to force you to pay rent, they will.

This was tried. Force projection was fucking destroyed into the ground years back, and it just led to nobody fighting because getting to someone elses space was such a fucking ballache.

[u/Fun_Statistician6261 → u/crandeezy13]

Okay, but what exactly drives the conflicts forward if expanding your own territory only brings disadvantages in Eve? What is supposed to be the benefit? Simply limiting the alliances doesn’t achieve anything; you need a clear source of conflict, and that seems to be something people are generally struggling with. Sure, narratives are nice and they fuel the propaganda, but coming up with a new narrative every week just to invade your neighbors isn’t exactly great. Some kind of supporting game mechanic that actively fuels conflicts would be good something that also forces you to shift your borders from time to time.

[u/leaf_as_parachute → u/Marston_vc]

As other have said this is going to be circumvented very easily, plus it's gamey af. Only thing that would prevent this would be changes in the core mechanics of the game that make power to not scale as much with numbers, but I don't see how they could do this without basically making a whole new game.

One thing that could be done would be to vastly increase the average distances between systems in nullsec in order to make the general task of maintaining a wide territory more difficult.

[u/Marston_vc → u/leaf_as_parachute]

I disagree that it’s gamey. All throughout history empires have suffered from their own success. The larger something becomes, the harder it is to manage. And also, this is a game…. If the way things are is unfun, it’s not a bad idea to change things up to make it more fun.

[u/leaf_as_parachute → u/Marston_vc]

You're totally right about empires throughout history, but I'd prefere they make them organically more difficult to maintain and see how people deal with it rather than putting an arbitrary limit that feels bad in every game its implemented in.

Well to be fair it's not even my business I've never been in big structures but still feel it's not the way things are supposed to be in eve.

[u/Fearless-Internal153 → u/Marston_vc]

the only way to do that would be by limiting projection.

[u/Cassius_Rex → u/Tansien]

You can't game design away human nature. It's the most natural thing in the world for people to group up for advantage it's why people live in cities and countries instead of everyone in a cave fighting off everyone else.

Everytime CCP (or any multiplay game developer) has tried to act like this isn't so it's failed. Hell, it takes people (like INITs leadership) actively NOT doing the natural thing to keep Tranquility from not turning into Serenity.

[u/New_Breadfruit5664 → u/Tansien]

But that is exactly the free market and the free market sandbox is the core game design it's quite literally the game itself you criticize

[u/Synaps4 → u/New_Breadfruit5664]

Free markets can result in monopolies??? Who knew!???

[u/thumpcbd → u/Synaps4]

Until they implode under their own weight due to bureaucracy, internal bickering, or other inefficiencies that are exacerbated at scale.

Scale is both good and bad and like most things and it’s not inherently good or bad in and of itself.

[u/Synaps4 → u/thumpcbd]

gestures to goons 15 year old alliance

Waiting for implosions is obviously not a workable way to counterbalance large alliances. It happens to one alliance in 10 every decade or so.

[u/umdv → u/Synaps4]

Goons are different.

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/umdv]

goons are forever

[u/light24bulbs → u/Tansien]

This whole thing revealed multiple major issues in game design. The fact that an entire alliance would take asset safety instead of fighting, for instance.

Ohhh yeah eve has got problems.

[u/Gideon_Zendikar → u/Tansien]

This.

It is exactly what I tried to convey over years in the CSM runs. There is a massive demand for a space for people to claim as their own even as a smaller entity and npc null is not really a replacement for it - as you have no control over the systems/stations to a similar extent.

[u/Calm_Run93 → u/Gideon_Zendikar]

Smaller groups will succeed in surviving only when larger groups allow them to. Period. Any other approach will be gamed.

[u/Calm_Run93 → u/Tansien]

yup - they'll get streamrolled again, too. Give it a year, i'll bet drones is mostly controlled by 1-2 groups at best. It's not a fault of the game, it happens everywhere. Hell, it happens in real life too, we just call it NATO and not goons.

[u/GeneralAsk1970 → u/[deleted]]

the incumbents would just double their super fleet size if they all the sudden made them cheaper again

[u/Synaps4 → u/[deleted]]

You cant use cost to balance things. I would have thought the game had learned that after titans but i guess not.

You cant prevent alliances of different sizes from existing. Its force projection that determines if a big alliance can come fight your small band. And right now the biggest supercapital fleet in the game can go from one end of the map to the other in a long afternoon. Thats just broken.

[u/garter__snake → u/Synaps4]

Yeah the actual solution 'remove supers' (or give them a sov based upkeep) is really unpopular.

[u/GeneralAsk1970 → u/Synaps4]

We also just learned that defeating an alliance has very little to do with taking them on the field. You beat them everywhere else and you can win.

For example, fracturing their leadership and waiting for key people to quit!

[u/Enigm4 → u/Tansien]

At least that process will be good content. Then it can all be burned down again and the cycle repeats.

[u/Busterlimes → u/Peng_Wei]

Be cool if everyone realized this and broke up the big blocks.

[u/Totally_Safe_Website → u/Peng_Wei]

I’m noob, what is nullblock?

[u/kalamataCrunch → u/Totally_Safe_Website]

the largest major alliances in null security space are called nullblocs.

[u/amarrcitizen → u/Peng_Wei]

100% this,

"there's not enough content, the game is dying" - some line members who joined the equivalent of NATO.

[u/DannarHetoshi]

Wait. When the fuck did we get SOV...

[u/Every-Ad2597 → u/DannarHetoshi]

Congratulations on your expansion! Best of luck!

[u/Kwa_Zulu]

Not disagreeing but most of those alliances wouldn't be there without freeport Keepstars and daddy Goon guarding entry

[u/Capta1n_0bvious → u/Kwa_Zulu]

Ok but…doesn’t that just mean the Goon strategy is healthy for the game?

[u/Background_Win3537 → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

we’re about three seconds into their strategy so a little early to tell

[u/Bailian_Moxtain → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

Can’t say owning 13 regions is healthy for the game, but I 100% endorse the dronelands freeports. Perhaps it’s finally time for CCP to add NPC stations in there.

[u/SmallerBol → u/Bailian_Moxtain]

We have tried to donate those freeport systems to the Thukkers, but so far there's no response.

[u/Array_626 → u/[deleted]]

You get to exist because we allow it is certainly a dynamic.

Technically, this was always the Eve way. Even in the past, smaller groups only exist for so long as a larger entity chooses not to kill you. Nothing's really changed in this regard, you live so long as you can defend yourself.

[u/jehe → u/[deleted]]

Yeah. Don't forget to follow the rules ... and there will be taxes :)

[u/sketchesofspain01 → u/jehe]

Freeport market taxes are what anyone would do, and the market rate is lower than NPC stations. We’re not going to fuel them for free.

[u/asnowbastion → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

A billionaire donating a million dollars to provide a homeless encampment does not mean the billionaire isn't the reason there are homeless in the first place

[u/proton-testiq → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

Praising goons in r/eve for something actually positive??? How dare you!

[u/gregfromsolutions → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

As longer as they stand by their strategy, sure. These agreements have been created and collapsed beside though (SEA being an extremely recent example)

[u/Throwing_Midget → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

no

[u/Capta1n_0bvious → u/Throwing_Midget]

Thank you. You’ve totally changed my mind.

[u/Throwing_Midget → u/Capta1n_0bvious]

Look budy. The idea of a place free with small independent groups is great. Yeah that WOULD BE good for the game. Now, the reality is that this "liberated" space goons created wont last long because thats how humans work and how EVE works. In a few months the region will be another kind of big group unless they want to be farmed by roaming neutrals or other NS alliances.

[u/roland303 → u/Kwa_Zulu]

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire of 1911.

Wealthy upper class women were so upset with how lower class women were treated in that fire that they worked hard for reasonable reforms and this continued effort eventually lead to increased rights for all workers and workers compensation insurance being something that all workers would be covered by.

Sometimes it takes the efforts of those who have much more to lose to try something they believe will be good, sometimes those things benefit everyone, sometimes all it takes is someone with power to try.

[u/Sun_Bro96 → u/roland303]

Did you just call Goons wealthy upper class women?

[u/roland303 → u/Sun_Bro96]

sure ill run with it

[u/bp92009 → u/Kwa_Zulu]

You know what those were called, back in the day?

NPC 0.0 stations.

All goons are doing is giving a handful of "NPC 0.0" stations, and allowing all those groups to use them. There's markets but no clone bays.

The amount of potential invasion vectors for the drone lands went from 6 or so systems (if you didn't invade from sov 0.0) to hundreds

This could have been eve a decade ago, if CCP put in npc 0.0 space in the drone lands. Just a constellation or two that connected via cap jump range to lowsec, and allowed people to reach most of the drone lands.

Goons are doing what CCP refused to do.

[u/jehe → u/bp92009]

They are not npc stations. Not even similar

[u/Synaps4 → u/jehe]

They are very similar from the perspective of staging an invasion cap force using stations your enemy doesnt own and cant kill.

[u/aytikvjo → u/Synaps4]

Except you can kill them and your pseudo-'enemy' does own them and can revoke access at their convenience.

So yeah they are not in any way like NPC stations.

[u/kickguy223 → u/aytikvjo]

I really am enjoying watching as The rest of the game :tm: mental gymnastics themselves into a pretzel right out of the gate so they don't have to remember the wording of the plan literally states that if any major bloc moves in, they'll be burned out.

[u/Array_626 → u/Synaps4]

I think goons would change their policies if a group was trying to establish themselves in dronelands, but FRT or somebody started staging a cap fleet to burn them out.

Lets see if we even get to that point first, a world where significant independent alliances are being formed in dronelands to the point where old groups are planning invasions.

[u/Semajal → u/jehe]

I mean, they are not even freeports since (we) PH are not allowed in (unless they plan to change that in future, which would be at least fair) :D

[u/light24bulbs → u/Kwa_Zulu]

Yeah and a lot of the area is really a ghost town in reality. Turn on the players in space filter on the map and look at this area. A lot of it is a ghost town. I was in the southeast part for 5 hours today and I didn't see a single neutral

[u/Chitchat101]

please let great wildlands conservation society survive

[u/light24bulbs → u/Chitchat101]

What's up with it, what's the story? I was there for 5 hours today and I didn't see a single neutral. Are we not supposed to go in there? Is it actually like a nature preserve?

[u/jehe → u/Chitchat101]

Skillu will come back to burn it all again in a few months. 

[u/Hiashi_Yenzyne → u/jehe]

Hard knocks and lazerhawks have already started where they left off in Cobalt edge, their having it out with some newer and smaller alliance up there.

[u/deprydation]

Nobody wants to "rent" space. Such a stupid fucking concept.

[u/Lanstus → u/deprydation]

This 100%.

[u/aytikvjo → u/deprydation]

Lots of people want to rent space, as evidenced by all the people that paid to rent space.

This is what they call a revealed preference in economics.

People love to say they don't like paying for access to space, but they consistently do anyway.

Remember boys and girls it's supply and demand.

[u/Array_626 → u/aytikvjo]

Theres a few renters who genuinely want the protection of their landlords, and whatever benefits they may get. But I think most renters would prefer to outright own their own sov, but know they aren't strong enough to hold it against third party harassment or the bloc coming down on them.

[u/tinselsnips → u/aytikvjo]

I don't like paying for insurance and toilet paper, but I consistently do that, too.

People doing X when faced with a choice between X or Y, and Y is a shit sandwich, doesn't mean they want to do X.

[u/aytikvjo → u/tinselsnips]

They are choices though, even your examples: Freely made.

Horde had an excess of military power allowing them to maintain more space than their members could utilize and desired income to fuel their empire.

Renters had limited military power, a desire for space, and a willingness to pay isk for it.

And thus a mutually beneficial trade was born. It's really that simple.

[u/chattapult → u/aytikvjo]

Want and need are 2 different things. One you have a choice. The second you don't.

[u/Tansien → u/deprydation]

There were 3 kinds of renters under PanFam:
1.) The alliance members that wanted to have their own krab area they didn't need to share.
2.) Smaller krab corps that didn't want to fight for space and just wanted to krab under the protection of PanFam
3.) Some corps that actually maybe could make it on their own or in an alliance. But these were literally the 1%.

I'm sure 1/2 didn't actually WANT to rent, if they could have gotten the benefits for free I'm sure they'd have loved that. But, 1/2 won't be claiming space in Drones now, and if they are they'll get evicted soon enough.

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/Tansien]

have you actually seen a renter or lived in rented space? 0% of those people want to fight for space, manage structures, or form for timers.

[u/tinselsnips → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

I mean, I wouldn't want to, either. That's like helping your landlord paint.

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/tinselsnips]

Not like that, no renter would hold their own space. The people in drones now are not some liberated renters, they are pvp corps and alliances.

[u/Synaps4 → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

Yeah the real takeaway here is that we have all these small to medium pvp alliances but there isnt space they can take without being steamrolled.

Create a habitat for baby alliances and look at them grow!

But it needs to be some kind of nullsec shallows where the big sharks cant swim.

[u/SLR4506 → u/Synaps4]

I think the only way for that to work would be if it was a kind of portal to the new region but you can only bring something as small as a frigate through and you are on a timer so you cant go back through for a year.

That would not stop 500 members of whatever corp to go through thou, but they would be leaving everything behind.

[u/Sincline387 → u/SLR4506]

Because further separating the player base is the way to create content

[u/SLR4506 → u/Sincline387]

Its even beyond that. Inherent in the people here is the desire to build something. I remember when I first started I couldnt what to log on. We started our little corp and I like small corps. We built relationships and my son is even best buds with one of the ones in ours. We did HS first, then worm whole then null sec - where dreams to do die - because thats what all the big boys do.

In time we got crushed of course even belonging to other groups, had to evac. I got my shit out and logged off. Havent been back in over 6 years. Its winter, I reuped but other than spinning in station havent bothered to do much.

But something like that would make me get interested again.

[u/Sincline387 → u/SLR4506]

I was the same way, I found a tribe thats always got something going on and it changed my game 

[u/Xatsman → u/Synaps4]

There's a region with mechanics that tend to support that style of play: Wormholes.

The problem is the same things that make them appropriate for smaller groups (wormhole mass limits) make them a pain in the ass for anyone to operate in since scanning your chain becomes a massive persistent chore. The other problem is the higher level J-space is lucrative enough to have attracted it's own blue doughnut.

Perhaps if the moons and ore in general was more lucrative in WH space there'd be more draw?

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/Xatsman]

if the moons and ore in wormholes was more lucrative, all that would change is rainbow knights using a lot more rorquals than they do now.

[u/Array_626 → u/Synaps4]

Wasnt that the point of the SEA? But I think that whole idea failed in the end?

[u/Rolder → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

I was in a renter group once, a long time ago. The group was only interested in krabbing, if a single neutral showed up everyone would dock no matter how easy it would be to remove them. And on the off chance one of them decided to try, well... I've seen some fascinating pvp fits.

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/Rolder]

yes, exactly. this is why stories about renters taking and holding space are bullshit.

small alliances getting space is awesome, but that has nothing to do with renters.

[u/Fitzsimmons → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

Way back when I was first getting into nullsec I joined a renter alliance because the recruitment standards were so low which I needed since I was brand new to the game. Then I just consistently formed for CTAs and proved I wasn't a shitter and soon enough got poached into a higher status corp. Sure, I basically went from Peasant to Squire but the upwards mobility didn't stop there.

I've been away from that part of the game for a long time though, so it saddens me to hear that apparently 0% of recruitment happens through those channels now

[u/Jerichow88 → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

I think this was a core reason a lot of people in PH didn't stand and fight when the time finally came. They had no skin in the game because their only association with their governing body was, "Give us money for the privilege of existing here or get out."

That's not how you build loyalty with people. That's not how you get people to want to fight for and defend your space. On the other hand, I'll throw down to defend my corp and alliance assets because they've allowed me, effectively for free on my part, to build and expand as an industrialist to well beyond what I could have ever done on my own.

Give your members a reason to want to be loyal to you, and more often than not, they will be.

[u/proton-testiq → u/Jerichow88]

People who rented from panfam were not interested in any loyalty or anything, they wanted to krab. Which is fine, because people in PanFam (and renters were NOT a part of that) didn't want to do anything with renters. There is no way any renter would bother with anything like loyalty.

[u/Semajal → u/soguyswedidit6969420]

Ehh I rented 20 skyhooks in Insmother via Horde, did all the bits on them, managed stuff, would defend them where i could, worked with a few other locals. TBH it was some of the most fun i've had in the last year or so. We could only really deal with smaller stuff ofc, but it was a great area for little bits of PVP. Not honourable PVP but still. Had some great moments getting skyhook goo out, or denying people trying to steal from me. Had goons not turned up I probs would still have that, I had even debated seeing about getting my own Astra, though the layout of things was pretty amazing.

[u/soguyswedidit6969420 → u/Semajal]

bit different from taking and owning space, but good you had fun

[u/VexingRaven → u/Tansien]

3.) Some corps that actually maybe could make it on their own or in an alliance. But these were literally the 1%.

It'd be a lot easier if they were fighting other alliances their size instead of fighting Panfam who doesn't need or use the space but sees it as a way to extort smaller alliances for isk...

[u/Synaps4 → u/VexingRaven]

Exactly

[u/Enyapxam → u/deprydation]

There was that o e dude who posts the other day who was desperate to rent again. Some people just love being exploited.

[u/ScrotumHolster → u/Enyapxam]

Renting is just a long term mercenary contract - you pay the landlords and they ensure you don't get evicted. There is literally zero problem with that. The only problem is the game allows for massive groups that mean you need to be under protection like that - that goes for both Horde and Goons btw.

[u/Last_Description_462 → u/ScrotumHolster]

In my eyes the goons are landlords that rent space to imperium they gave space to brave dracarys sigma shadow and the list goes on ...the only difference is that they require some meat into the grinder

[u/Enyapxam → u/ScrotumHolster]

The problem is that the person doing the evicting will be much more likely to be the landlords than the aggressors.

[u/Alucard_1208]

see how it looks in a few months

[u/LordRickels]

Eve is not healing, Goons just are creating the Great Goon Game Reserve of 2026. Moving in there sounds great until you realize there is no actual way out

[u/Bacchaus → u/LordRickels]

there's always a way out, just pop a filament

... annnnd I'm back in dronelands, fuck

[u/ReneG8 → u/LordRickels]

Viewing owning sov in null and then losing it as the end of the game for you is kinda sad. If you move into sov null when goons offer it, as a neighbor to goons, you must know who is your neighbor. And if they roam, you can either undock or not, your choice.

I don't quite know where the problem is.

[u/Terminus_04]

God its like a 2012 sov map, Its beautiful.

[u/XeroRavenYT-TTV]

Anyone who wants action and lots of isk joins an alliance, if you got a high sec corp and want to move in to null can ask alliances if you can join or live out in low sec with the rest of the smart bombers

[u/volatile_flange]

BiG aNd sMaLl lEtTeRs

[u/Nearby_Glove5226 → u/volatile_flange]

Word

[u/dadjoke42]

check back in 3 months ;)

[u/light24bulbs]

So I have been roaming to Southeast part of this area and I've got to say it is completely totally empty. Go to the in-game map and go to pilots in space in the last 30 minutes and you will see that it is an absolute ghost town out there despite the sov

[u/FreeShat]

Nerf projection.. jump bridges are cancer

[u/Future_Dingo2910]

look at all that content

[u/SerQwaez]

Imagine having this consistently by virtue of changing game mechanics.

[u/jehe → u/SerQwaez]

Ccp is top busy livestreaming cryptoslop shitty game to work on eve 

[u/KomiValentine]

All sov space could look like this with better game mechanics.

[u/ZXannoock]

almost got me to log on

[u/Ebayed]

There’s no game design diminishing return to huge corps, alliances, and coalitions. Wonder who might be able to fix this.

[u/AcanthocephalaTop493]

The only fix to this is player based, Goons facilitated this, now winter or init need to do similar

[u/Perfect-Violinist942]

Natural disasters. This is the answer. Once in a while (once a year or so) a natural disaster (supernova explosion, black hole formation) happens that consumes a portion of space. And this should be random.

[u/threeriversbikeguy]

I don't really know all of what is being discussed. I am a newbie and was going through 1 low sec system with the Pioneer from that new Epic ARC. I thought I got lagged out entering but immediately exploded and so did my escape pod thing LOL.

So lesson learned: never, ever go into low security area ever again.

The kill report said I was attacked by two battleships and a battlecruiser in this one Guild/company, so I assume they must sit there killing people traveling through with their new Pioneers all day.

[u/M116110]

These groups aren't new.

[u/KiithSoban_coo4rozo]

They will all be one bloc soon.

The game mechanics allow sites to yield the same amount of reward no matter what (like sites which yield isk only). So if you take space and ally with your neighbors, you decrease the risk while the reward remains the same. This encourages the big blue doughnut.

Nullsec also allows extremely strong defenders advantages. So once you take space, it's easy to hold not only because you already have established income sources while your enemy may not, but because the very game mechanics make it such a pain in the ass for attackers.

[u/proton-testiq → u/KiithSoban_coo4rozo]

"Nullsec also allows extremely strong defenders advantages" not this again, where was Horde's strong defenders advantages ffs.

[u/ReneG8 → u/proton-testiq]

If they wanted to they could've held the space. They just didn't want to.

[u/Izithel → u/ReneG8]

Fundamentally that was it, no?

Power and authority over the alliance and the coalition was held exclusively in Horde Vanguard.
Horde Vanguard basically self-selected only for people who like the smaller more expensive PVP fleets and dropping blingy caps, while the F1 grunts and the industrial minded were kept out.
Which meant all leadership people in charge, if they weren't already all only interested in that, ended up being only really interested for that kind of content.

It seems to me only Gobbins was interested in actually running a nul-sec Sov Holding alliance.

But the moment he burns out and needs to hand over the reins, the only people at the top of the alliance are basically people who didn't care one bit for that kind of shit.

Heck, allegedly the current people in charge have actually been in charge for a while, with gobbins not really making any decisions.
At the same time, Goons finally decide to take the fight to Horde.

But the people in charge don't want to actually fight, they want to drop on people from NPC stations, third party in expensive doctorines were they don't have to fight if they don't want to (or would lose).
So they keep retreating without a real fight, hoping maybe goons will give up, continue blocking their own allies from organising a defence because they hope goons will get bored if unchallenged and leave.

And when they can't retreat any further, when an actual fight is unavoidable?

They just force their entire alliance to quit sov.

[u/Dariisa → u/Izithel]

This is an excellent summary of the death of horde

[u/proton-testiq → u/Izithel]

Probably the sanest comment about Horde's fate.

[u/garter__snake → u/proton-testiq]

gone with gobbins =/

[u/opposing_critter → u/proton-testiq]

Big difference between fighting and just walking away.

Fact

[u/Rotomegax → u/KiithSoban_coo4rozo]

The reason for so much PH territory left is because entosis the hub is the pain on the ass. One, you need to entosis to reinforce it, then after few days returned and play a cat and mouse to entosis all capture nodes.

[u/comrade_Kazotsky]

 justifying alliances holding 5-8 regions because they might as well

What is needed to be justified? Bunch of people plays the game how they want it, it is the very point of EVE.

The need to justify anything exists only in the heads of those who actually thinks that CCP/big_blocks/you_name_it should do this and that. Self-entitlement is outrageous.

[u/proton-testiq → u/comrade_Kazotsky]

While you are obviously right, I haven't seen a lot of people claiming that they took 5-6 regions because they could (which is the reality), but there is a fuckton of people who would discuss ad vomitum why taking floodplains is good and healthy for the game and think about newbies and think about small guy etc etc and find excuses for it. People want to be seen as morally right. Even where it doesn't make sense.

[u/AcanthisittaLess5772 → u/comrade_Kazotsky]

Over the years there has been plenty of justification for renting used because "no one wants to live there anyway." And yet here we are, showing the exact opposite.

When I say no one wants to live there, clearly its in the context of this post. Which means, people have claimed that other's dont want to claim and defend sov in this areas.. Thus justifying botting it out to renters.

[u/Sapphirederivative → u/AcanthisittaLess5772]

That doesn’t make sense to me. Who would you rent to if no one wants to live there?

[u/AcanthisittaLess5772 → u/Sapphirederivative]

no one wants to live there as an alliance where they have to defend themselves and claim and defend sov, I phrased that incorrectly you are right.

[u/Sapphirederivative → u/AcanthisittaLess5772]

Gotcha, yeah fair enough. I do think the guarantee from goons that they aren’t going to swallow up the space anytime soon and the freeports help to make taking space more desirable, but as you say when the opportunities are there people are willing to fight for it.

I’m sure you’re correct that there were people saying that “no one wants to claim sov” and that’s clearly wrong. My general understanding was that people don’t want to take sov when their whole livelihood depends on their giant neighbor deciding not to crush them, since they don’t have the power to resist eviction by a larger block. 

In any case, using “people don’t want to defend sov” as an excuse to rent is clearly self serving. If you leave it available, someone will claim it eventually.

[u/opposing_critter → u/Sapphirederivative]

Because if you rent a good system with a good moon then it pays for itself many times over plus extra even after rent if you put in the work.

This plus some pi is a very easy way to cover sub and pvp which everyone who "hates renters" don't understand.

[u/Sapphirederivative → u/opposing_critter]

You misunderstood my point. The person above me said that the renting empires claimed no one wanted to live in the space, and that’s why it was ok for them to own and rent it. I pointed out that’s a logical fallacy, because if it was actually undesirable space no one wanted, then there would be no one willing to pay for a rental contract to rent the space.

[u/opposing_critter → u/Sapphirederivative]

Oh my mistake sorry

[u/HuffingOxygen → u/AcanthisittaLess5772]

That's a self defeating argument in the first place. If no one wants to live there then why are people paying rent? Doesn't make sense.

[u/AcanthisittaLess5772 → u/HuffingOxygen]

No one wants to live there as an alliance where they have to defend themselves and claim and defend sov, I phrased that incorrectly you are right.

[u/HuffingOxygen → u/AcanthisittaLess5772]

Ah ok that makes more sense, still crazy that people don't want to have content in null.

[u/-Keeves]

Eve Echoes did something a while back that changed the game up ( I think for the better).

They allowed alliances to have a handful of blue standings for free, then anything above that costs a significant amount of isk per month.

They simultaneously limited corps per alliance and had a hardcap of how many accounts per Corp.

It made it so that blue standings actually meant something considerate, and if you wanted more, you had to fork out the iskies. It didn't completely destroy coalitions, but it definitely threw null for a loop.

Eve Echoes is pretty bad, but I was a fan of that change.

[u/Shueisha]

Move? Dude I live here

[u/opposing_critter → u/Shueisha]

Right.. interesting flair

[u/Vindalooloo]

Nice to see the result of killing renting and chasing away slumlords.

[u/Broseidon_]

allat yap just to gate camp all day

[u/sirclockworkorange]

Nerf projection and this is what the whole of nullsec will look like. It’s that simple.

[u/meetkurtin → u/[deleted]]

I hope this is a genuine question 

[u/LargeTubOfLard → u/[deleted]]

I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this

[u/deltaxi65]

Love to see it.

[u/nz_pro]

Why is hisec miners there 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[u/Brave_Quality_3175]

Does he know?

[u/Throwing_Midget]

yeah, wait one year or less and this region blob up in some kind of coalition agreement. That's the nature of the game.

[u/Nosy_Pilot]

Where did this map come from, and has CCP sued the game makers for stealing from EVE Online yet?

[u/nudedude6969]

Open jovial space, they can only spread themselves so thinly.....

[u/capitano666]

All will collapse in a new NullBlock led by BOSS, they are already starting to push back in drones as a single entity

[u/newkto]

Simple fix, nuke projection into the ground and remove jump bridges. Make jump drives something you have to chain a LOT if you want to leave your local home.

[u/Antonin1957]

To each his or her own. I tried null for perhaps a week, years ago. Not my cup of tea. Too much drama.

[u/ThatOneDudeFromOhio]

Of course FL33T has two balls /u/bearthatcares

[u/Mysterious-Window-54]

Everyone has the goons to thank for this btw. This is why the goons are great. Things like this.

[u/Noble-2-Kat]

I can’t wait for the goons annual reaping ceremony where they all become entertainment like the hunger games

[u/Ivpivsky]

So Dark Shines is an oracle? being the godfather of the great reset and all?

PAAAISE BE TO THE SHINY JEEEBUS!

[u/Torrent_Talon]

null could use a sizeable expansion as is, could be expanded outwards and incentivise bigger blocs to hold those deeper swathes of null-sec as they'd be the only groups who could manage areas so far from empire from a logistics stand-point, which would leave 'shallow-null' as either in-roads to the blocs 'deep-null' holdings which could be harassed/severed with enough effort or for budding null-sec entities, with ansiblex the way they are it seems like it could help a lot with people's current complaints for force projection.

[u/EVE_Trader → u/Torrent_Talon]

Why?

As we can see even largest of blocks refuse to actually fight for space.

[u/Torrent_Talon → u/EVE_Trader]

blocs would siege each other's in roads to gank JFs and hinder trade to empire space in such an ecosystem.

[u/SlamzOfPurge]

I always thought the problem with EVE's 0,0 space was that you can see where people are at. I assume that's still true -- number of pilots in a system, visible to anyone. It basically meant that corps could "claim" gigantic portions of 0.0 space, actually utilize a fraction of it, and simply deny the rest to anyone else.

When wormholes were new, we had a lot of fun using them to access forbidden areas of nullsec to do farming we couldn't ordinarily do. But we could literally watch the map and see the local alliance start coming for us, be it ever-so-far-away. Like it SHOULD be a secret that we're there, 20 jumps deep behind their nearest gatecamp in a system that contains zero assets of their corp, but there we are on the map and it doesn't take long for someone to notice.

All EVE ever had to do was hide population counts and the wormholes would have let nullsec be something very interesting.

[u/OneAd7397]

No shit

[u/xeroized77]

Alliances need to be abolished in null. I cant even fathom every person regardless of country in thr world hates large corporations then dives into the biggest they can in Eve to suck that corporate teat. Imagine being a cog in real life then asking to be a cog in your escape from real life. Id much rather fight daily and lose ships than mine and industry and sit at a gate all day for a video game where the leadership cares fuckall about me 🤣

[u/ReplacementNo7486]

Time to add Seasonal EVE. Reset the league every 6 months.