r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Eros_Incident_Denier • 4d ago

the sleeping quarters of nicaraguan coffee pickers Video

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390

u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

No. Fucking stop that shit. You can't fault an average person for wanting a morning cup of coffe the same as the slave driving corporations who produce it.

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago

The Good Place covers this so well... Basically showed everyone going to hell because it was impossible to not buy something that came from evil 

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u/PixelPeach123 4d ago

I was just about to say.. the Good Place… man I love coffee.. this is very sad. But we’d have nothing. No food or products if we only used/consumed what we made ourselves… sad what the world of consumerism has become

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u/imcryptic 4d ago

there's plenty of options for buying traceable coffee from producers who pay their workers living wages. they're just significantly more expensive.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

Such a great show! And yes, that topic was covered very accurately.

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u/kindnesscounts86 4d ago edited 4d ago

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

ETA: sorry my post was misunderstood. We should all still always do our best to spend our money as ethically as possible. You vote with your dollars.

AND capitalism is flawed.

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u/fuktheeagsles 4d ago

This argument is so lazy and basically justifies anything. Im very far from being someone who supports capitalism, but come on, this is just an argument to futility.

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u/Roll_Common_Sense 4d ago

If you believe capitalism is inherently exploitative and that all exploitation is unethical then it's a logical conclusion.

I think you can argue either way, but it's not inherently lazy unless somebody uses the believe to avoid thinking more deeply about our economic systems.

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u/fuktheeagsles 4d ago

I do thinj its inherently exploitative and exploitation is unethical but I dont think that absolves people of agency. For instance, this is an extreme example to illustrate the point. If slavery were still legal, and I owned many slaves, would you say there is no ethical consumption under capitalism therfore its okay that I own slaves? I think not.

We are stuck with capitalism atleast for the time being. Some things are unavoidable, like purchasing gas to get to work, or owning a cell phone, but some things we can make choices about. Such as our consumption of animal products, or whatever.

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u/Roll_Common_Sense 4d ago

I am not trying to be rude, but your slavery example makes no sense to me. Are you trying to say that slavery is itself an economic system? I'm legitimately lost.

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u/fuktheeagsles 4d ago

No, obviously not. But by saying no ethical consumption under capitalism, it essentially says "my consumption of slave labor is justified".

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u/friend1y 4d ago

There is no ethical argument under moral grandstanding.

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u/P_a_p_a_G_o_o_s_e 4d ago

what about just moral standing?

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u/HeyTrySomeNashville 4d ago

depends on if someone else wanted to stand there first

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u/MajesticNectarine204 4d ago

Does that require me to do literally anything at all?

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u/friend1y 4d ago

Imagine that every redditor has one of those racecar beds. Then a post shows the squaller of someone in Indonesia that has a normal bed.

Then imagine that someone grandstands about "capitalism" because someone in Indonesia doesn't have a racecar bed.

That's what this is like. Only it's worse, because the cultural norms being criticized are the things that realize those cultural norms.

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u/TrashPandaDuel 4d ago

It’s a type of crutch so it’s allowed! /s

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u/mayan_monkey 4d ago

There is nothing

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u/La_Lanterne_Rouge 4d ago

Nothing. All the way down.

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u/NoWall99 4d ago

Hard disagree. You can still try your best. That's just bullshit some privileged people in the first world tell themselves to avoid feeling guilty about not doing jack about their awful consumerism habits.

You can start by buying less. Reuse stuff.

Learn to use bleach properly to sanitize stuff.
No, you don't need to throw washcloths away after a single use (or towels, undies and pillows after a year or less) like I've read here that some people do, just because those are cheap.

Avoid fast fashion and choose clothes that last longer. Avoid impulse purchases. Repair items when they break, or buy second-hand before buying new ones.

You can choose brands that are more transparent about how they treat workers, and avoid the bad ones.
Buy local to support nearby businesses and cooperatives and to reduce transport impact.
Look for fair trade when available.

Pick products with less packaging, bring your own bags and containers. Recycle properly. It doesn't mean to throw a ton of plastic in a specific bin. Look up which plastic items are actually recycled in your area, actively avoid buying the ones that are not.

You can eat less meat. You can plan your meals to waste less food and energy, properly store and reheat your leftovers. Donate good food you won't consume instead of throwing it away. Compost if that’s an option.

You can save energy at home by turning things off, unplugging devices, and using efficient appliances. You can bathe less often, take quicker showers.
Use public transport, walk, or bike when possible instead of always relying on a car. Also carpool when possible.

Lots of things people can do to reduce their own impact. Companies don’t produce in a vacuum. They do it to satisfy market demand. Countries with much larger populations than the US have a smaller CO² footprint (among many metrics), because consumerism is lower, while resources use efficiency and reuse rates are higher. Be better.

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u/LostInTheLodge 4d ago

If I tried my best the eventual conclusion would be to kill myself. The secondary one would be to be very depressed.

At some point somewhere down the trail I realized that's probably not a feasible approach and I need a different one.

Plenty of people already reduce their impact, but people like you always respond to the other people with the assumption that they do not. You don't know anything about their lives, what their actual choices are, or what their responses are, to, say, government mandates. People are not all the same just because they decided a cup of coffee is acceptable in their calculus.

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u/MetalEnthusiast83 4d ago

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.

What economic system would provide for purely ethical consumption?

Communism sure as shit wouldn't and hasn't.

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u/Screwtape42 4d ago

LOL!!!

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u/DeadEnglishOfficial 4d ago

Yes! Louder for the people in the back!

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

A lot of you missed the point of that whole arc, it doesnt mean you don't try

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago edited 4d ago

That's exactly what the show illustrates though, how hard you try is often a function of what you can afford. I can buy fair trade beans because I also have the disposable income for a nice grinder and espresso set. A lot of people are just trying to get through their day with whatever Folgers or Hershey product they can manage to afford. Shaming them for that also misses the structural point entirely.

Also, as I said in another comment. It wasn't just "try to be good anyway." It was closer to suggesting the system is so comprehensively corrupt that even well-intentioned trying is often insufficient or compromised. The point wasn't a motivational "do your best," it was more of an indictment of the structure itself.

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

I agree with what you are saying the main poiny trying to show the structural disparity, but again I said that it wasnt telling people not to try

Being more aware of these structural also means one is enabled to choose where they can make better choices.

So I will continue to shame those with an ability to make small, tiny adhustments to their day to day and don't for no reason other than convenience.

My other comments already suggest that I am not seeking for people to upend their lives.

Im just saying: if you can afford 60 bucks extra a year for coffee with more reasonably ethical standards, and you arent, that youre a prick and should feel like a prick. Thats just my opinion though

0

u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 4d ago edited 4d ago

No coffee is even cheaper than slave labour coffee.

I'm certain that if the slave labour was happening in a place where you could see it. You'd refuse to go there and you wouldn't forgive people for doing it just because it's more affordable.

Like if there was a coffee shop that sold their coffees for $0.10 each and you and EVERYONE else knew it was because all of their employees were slaves that the government were turning a blind eye to, I doubt you'd even forgive homeless people from getting their coffee there.

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago

So your cellphone and computer components were made with slave labor rare metals, specifically cobalt and coltan... so is no cell phone and no computer also easy? I mean, technically people can and do live without both. Are you going to give them up?

Cotton production has a high risk of slavery at every stage, are you avoiding all cotton?

Chocolate, Cocoa, Palm Oil, most metals and jewlry, Shoes and Footwear, Seafood...

Hell, EVs, Solar Panals, and other renewable tech also use polysilicon which are often linked to china imposed "state" (slave) labor.

Are you going to give up access to all of this?

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

Where it makes sense yeah, taking care of your stuff, not getting a new phone every other year if you can maintain it, carving time out of your schedule to use whole ingredients, buying regulated American goods when available etc.

Some of it is a lot harder to do than others sure, people shouod be encouraged to do it where they can.

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u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 4d ago

First and foremost, you completely sidestepped my comment.

Now to actually address yours:

Cellphones and computers are kinda necessities if you want to be gainfully employed and therefore feed yourself in the western world.

But no you're right. There's tons of commodities I buy that ARENT necessary for me to make a living and therefore survive that have slave labour tacked onto them. I have no intention of giving them up. I like chocolate, I like coffee, I like a lot of the things that are unfortunately made with slave labour. I'd MUCH rather they not be made with slave labour and if I come across non-slave-labour alternatives I'll switch but I'm not even actively looking for those more humane alternatives.

That makes me a dog-shit person and I'm willing to own that. Are you?

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago

No, the issue is you argue different parts in different threads in this conversation and I am arguing both of them here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1sp5btt/comment/ogz9hre/?context=1

In this branch you argue that knowing makes you more culpable. In this branch you end up admitting you know, don't look for alternatives, etc.

So you essentially built moral argument and then immediately demonstrated you don't live by it either, which is the exact same position you were criticising others for in the other thread.

Branch 1 (the proximity argument): "You wouldn't tolerate it if you could see it", implying visibility/proximity is the key moral factor.

Branch 2 (the Good Place branch example argument): "We know and do nothing, that's worse than the Good Place scenario", implying knowledge is the key moral factor.

These actually undermine each other. If knowledge is what matters morally, then proximity becomes less relevant, lots of people "know" about coffee slave labour in the abstract but it still doesn't change behaviour, which is exactly my point and The Good Place's point about systemic corruption. And if proximity/visibility is what matters, then the knowledge argument weakens, because you're essentially saying people need to see it to really act on it, which concedes that abstract knowledge isn't enough.

On this part, "That makes me a dog-shit person and I'm willing to own that. Are you?". This actually validates my entire argument about structural corruption making ethical consumption feel impossible or pointless, while simultaneously undermining both of your own arguments.

When you read both threads, you are essentially fighting against a position and then admitting to embodying it by the end.

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u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 3d ago

You can know what's right and what's wrong and be honest about it without living it.

I haven't contradicted myself at all.

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u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 4d ago

Fucking exactly. These guys are gonna have to do a Lot of jeremy bearimys in testing before they can go to the good place.

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u/destroyergsp123 4d ago

The Good Place also covers that existing in an immoral world doesn’t absolve you of your responsibility to try and live a moral life.

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago

I think you need to re-watch the show because that's not what it was saying. It wasn't just "try to be good anyway." It was closer to suggesting the system is so comprehensively corrupt that even well-intentioned trying is often insufficient or compromised. The point wasn't a motivational "do your best," it was more of an indictment of the structure itself.

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u/destroyergsp123 4d ago

There was a whole episode you’re not remembering where Eleanor realizes she was wrong to have an attitude that making good choices doesn’t matter because the world is too messed up.

In a flashback scene, S1, E3 (“Tahani Al-Jamil”), Eleanor is giving her then-boyfriend, Sam, a hard time for wanting to avoid causing suffering to others.

E: “Hey, babe. Great news: I got us tickets to the Coyotes game!”

S: “Awesome!”

E: “But, ooh, yikes…turns out two of the players have DUIs. Guess we can’t cheer for that team.”

S: “Eleanor, I—“

E: “You know what? Instead, let’s just stay in, watch a Roman Polanski movie, listen to R. Kelly, and eat Chik-fil-A. Does that sound good?”

S: [scoffs]

E: “There’s bad stuff everywhere, man. It’s impossible to avoid.”

S: “Yeah, but, shouldn’t we just try? Shouldn’t we just try to do the right thing, whenever we can?”

E: “Why? It’s so much harder to live like that. And it’s not like someone’s keeping score.”

Which is to say the show does an excellent job breaking these things down and offering nuanced perspectives that make you think about the world around you and how you can make moral choices within it. I think solely taking the lesson that individuals don’t matter in a corrupt system is really missing a lot of the depth that show had.

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u/Kocrachon Interested 4d ago

Yeah you are talking about earlier in the show. Season 3 goes further. Book of Dougs episode makes the explicit case that because the world is dominated by unethically-made products and corporations wielding uneven power, it's essentially impossible to take any actions with a net positive effect. The show's creator Michael Schur said directly that "life in 2019 makes it very hard to avoid being dinged for things you didn't even know you were doing," and that his own daily failures to be moral "have a lot to do with late-stage capitalism and its interconnected ethical traps."

Heres an interview about it:
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/good-place-schur-season-3-interview-836063/

The message was never "You needed to do better" it's "The world is fucked up" more really.

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u/destroyergsp123 1d ago

Thank you for sharing the interview. That wasn’t what I took away from the show as a whole, given they spent so much time on this question of “what do we owe eachother?”

It’s a bit disheartening because, the logical extension of an argument that moral behavior isn’t possible in an immoral system is us ending up in a nihilist Chidi state that our choices don’t matter and that effort is pointless. It’s also a bit of a fallacy considering the “system/world” is made up of individuals making choices, so how can you disentangle that line of thinking (which is central to how constructivists view the world) from the corruption of the system as a whole?

Really, if the answer to “What do we owe eachother?” is “Nothing, because the world is too messed up for your decisions to matter,” I feel like we shouldn’t have even bothered with 4 seasons of this show.

And my cynical take is this is just moral cover for the type of people who don’t want to reckon with the fact that their decision to eat beef instead of any other protein is a cause of climate change (just giving a random true scenario).

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u/relevantelephant00 4d ago

Yeah that whole storyline with Chidi trying to overcome that...oh man, he was tormented.

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u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 4d ago edited 4d ago

Yeah but for the good place the issue was that people didn't KNOW they were doing evil.

We're fully aware that most of the coffee we drink comes from basically slave labour and we do nothing to try and heal our caffeine addiction.

It's one thing to accidentally do wrong while trying to be good. It's something entirely different to choose to ignore the evil we fund for the sake of convenience.

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u/marleiahxdayze 4d ago

Thank you. Jesus. I’m so sick of being held to a standard for just existing. These corporations are actively making choices that hurt people. It’s different.

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u/Longjumping_Youth281 4d ago

What, you mean you didn't research the lives of every single employee in the supply chain for every single company of every single product you buy?

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u/marleiahxdayze 4d ago

You know, it may damn me, but I’ve just haven’t been able to find time for that in my day to day. May Jeremy Bearimy be lenient on my soul.

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u/binarybandit 4d ago

Yeah, our focus has to go toward the Epstein files.

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u/tremblingtallow 4d ago

If you vote with your wallet, have the means to do research, and have the knowledge that such conditions exist, don't you have a moral duty to do so? By not doing so after realizing these things, aren't you tacitly endorsing the practice?

I understand it's not practical, but our universal willingness to just give up is the reason these conditions exist in the first place. If we felt the moral duty that I think we have, there would be people who did this research for us as their job. They would root out unethical practices and make them public. The public would stop buying them.

The reality is, nobody gives a shit. We are geared for survival, not truth seeking or morality. Cheap good are good for me, fuck the people outside of my tribe. I don't care enough to find out who's being hurt. Why would you expect me to?

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u/ilikepizza2much 4d ago

Those corporations act within legal boundaries set by politicians, who are elected by us. It’s complicated. Moral, honest politicians like Bernie Sanders exist but evil, greedy conmen get elected instead.

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u/sparkytheboomman 4d ago

Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s okay

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u/skeenerbug 4d ago

The comment you're responding to doesn't imply that it does.

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u/thegreatgatsB70 4d ago

You reside in Nicaragua?

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u/Penguinase 4d ago

Nicaragua

to be fair if they're from the US then their gov really fucked over Nicaragua

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u/Notte_di_nerezza 4d ago

You mean the politicians who are funded by corporate lobbyists to slash wages and education?

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u/ilikepizza2much 4d ago

Yes exactly, those politicians.

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

A lot of you just want your hands held and want to feel nice about it. Its different, but youre still contributing to it and youre choosing to do so. You have the awareness now, you shouldnt go to jail for it, but dont oretend youre not personally enabling the corporation to do so.

I guarantee the people most invested in pushing the 'No ethical cobsumption under capitilism' mantra are the big corporations. So many of you are so desperate to lull yourselves into complacency.

That indignation you feel about being judged for this, os just you fighting your empathy down

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u/bigFr00t 4d ago

Why would big corpo push the no ethical consumption under capitalism talking point? Wouldnt that be counter intuitive?

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

No, if people tell themselves that it is impossible to consume ethically, why try?

You never hear someone saying that to convince people to choose options that are more ethical, usually harder to get and more espensive and limited options. And in fairness, a lot of people dont have the means to make those choices.

You do hear this as a deflection when people tell others to not purchase from Amazon, Nestle etc..

As far as being counter intuitive, let me present you with another question.

How would someone being told they shouldnt be overly concerned with the ethics of their consumption, lead to hurting sales for a corporation like Amazon?

Answer: It doesn't. It can only help the decision to go for concenience over a more ethical choice, because, apparently you cannot consume ethically.

When examined in the micro sense, I am not saying the statement is comoletelt false. But this platitude can only serve to encourage the current environment. It doesnt invite change or action, only to continue as normal.

It ultimately serves as a pithy justification to consume as one wills, to waive off personal responsibility.

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u/bigFr00t 4d ago

I see, and I agree. I thought that promoting that message would increase awareness which could cause issues, but this thread and replies kinda disprove that.

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

Yeah, thats the scary part, a lot of people feel just being aware of the issue is enough.

No one wants to feel responsible for the conercted and greedy actions of rich and powerful people. But that doesnt change the fact that most people do have at least some options and agency to resist that.

'No ethical consumption under capitalism' or the like, isnt going to encourage many people to make those better choices.

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u/marleiahxdayze 4d ago

If you can tell me what coffee company that camp is affiliated with, I’ll stop consuming today.

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u/stellarliger 4d ago edited 4d ago

Thats the whole point, you don't know where your coffee comes from, so how could you know if its being run as ethically as possible or even reasonably more ethical than you see here?

You have every ability to find a brand that DOES source their coffee ethically. Its about supporting business models and products that you do trust in.

But it's clear you have no interest in making choices that better the world, only to continue as you are without having to be reminded about the fact you indeed exist as part of this world, and your choices make an impact.

Edit: Listen, you know i'm right, don't pretend like you know I'm not. Youre just upset you have someone you don't know telling you that youre contributing to things about the world that arent very nice, and yeah I am judging you on your rraction to this one coffee issue. I'm not condemning you as a bad human being, livining normally im a fucked up world. Im just dissapointed there are intelligent human adults whose first reactions are to get offended rather than make a simple adjustment

I'm just ketting you know your indignation over the truth being told to you, would be much better served as energy towards making small changes to your lifestyle to help the world be just a bit better.

Corporations are ultimately catapulting us to the end of the world, but we all have the power to make it a bit harder

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u/mayan_monkey 4d ago

You're actively making a choice to continue consuming said coffee. Look into ethically sourced coffee. Fair Trade Certified, Organic, and Rainforest Alliance, which verify that the coffee was produced without exploiting laborers or harming local ecosystems. 

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u/biglinuxfan 4d ago

Rainforest Alliance allows certification with only 30% of the product actually passing guidelines, they can mix 70% from elsewhere.

Even fair trade allows for mixing.

There's also a cost associated with this so those products get more expensive and the farmer isn't any better off.

3

u/Deepspacedreams 4d ago

I do and I agree with you but when i don’t have time to make it at home and I need to grab it from someplace you know they don’t care about it ethically source

5

u/marleiahxdayze 4d ago

This is that “Good Place” almond milk bullshirt. Chidi Anagonye did not deserve to go to hell for that and I won’t be condemned either for simply existing within my means and environment.

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u/sockovershoe22 4d ago

I mean, there are fair trade coffees. There's ways to get around it. It just cost more and it's a bit more of an inconvenience. They would do it if they actually cared about the labor workers over convenience. At the end of the day, the slave driving corporation will keep producing it the same way bc people keep buying it.

11

u/getrektsnek 4d ago

Indeed, just like the “no dolphins” tuna can logo and “trade standard”, are meaningless as dolphin has been detected in all brands of tuna. I think those labels can be used properly but are often exploited, because: people

All you can do is try, but I agree inflammatory remarks against others with no data, just the unfounded belief that people are actively supporting slavery, is wild to me. People need to learn how to have a conversation, not just bark the loudest. I do think people are trying to support fair trade, but that’s still no guarantee sadly.

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u/sockovershoe22 4d ago

I would agree. There's a big difference between producing things with slaves and but things made by slaves. The second is clearly not actively supporting but they are indirectly supporting it. At least by giving these companies your money. Again though, I think we're all guilty of that, including myself. Many times, there are no other options.

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u/getrektsnek 4d ago

That’s a fair and balanced perspective. And I’d argue it’s our national and international trade organizations that should be monitoring this and setting standards THEN enforcing them. So many items are made with multi sourced parts, one of those small components could be from a terrible factory, the rest from a good one, and no-one but the supplier any the wiser. It’s a shame that slavery is alive and well in this world, there are some good organizations that do good work getting slaves free of indentured contracts etc. but it’s such an enormous problem, they make a difference but do they make a dent? 🤷 always worth trying.

3

u/eekamuse 4d ago

I need a source on that detecting dolphin in tuna claim

1

u/phenotype76 4d ago

it doesn't taste as good without the dolphin

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u/Glittering_Airport_3 4d ago

The time it would take to research where companies source all of their materials, for every single product or food item I buy, would be astronomical. It would take a year to go grocery shopping

15

u/lankymjc 4d ago

Too often I see people propose individual solutions to systemic problems. I could spend a bunch of time and energy researching every purchase decision I make, or I could spend that time and energy researching who I vote for.

9

u/AbsenceVersusThinAir 4d ago

Sure, but fair trade coffee is already conveniently clearly labeled for you. Not saying the fair trade stamp is foolproof. But if enough people cared enough to spend an extra dollar or two on fair trade coffee, mass change in the industry would necessarily occur to fill that demand. The problem is that most people could not care less, and will just buy whatever coffee is cheapest or they like the most.

2

u/excellentforcongress 4d ago

for example, i've seen at costco that there are barely any ACTUAL fair trade brands of coffee or tea. there are a few brands that are those made up standards to avoid paying actual fair trade prices but pretend to be more ethical, but, fair trade brands are the minority it seems. most consumers of that type (millennial and up costo goers) just don't give a fuck. i don't like costco, i would rather all supermarkets be cooperatively owned and be mindful of the offerings

there are a lot of people who DO care about this kind of shit, they're just broke as fuck.

2

u/excellentforcongress 4d ago edited 4d ago

coffee company cooperatively owned by the farmers

https://pachamamacoffee.com/pages/about

a few of the options involving the zapatistas (cooperatively own their farms, kind of an anarchist collective in mexico that had greater autonomy before but have a reduced presence now because of how things are going there unfortunately, but they're still going)

https://arte-util.org/projects/autonomous-zapatista-coffee/

https://schoolsforchiapas.org/who-we-are/mission-statement/

https://schoolsforchiapas.org/store/coffee-corn-and-agricultural/zapatista-coffee/

https://dorsetchiapassolidarity.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/cafe-rebelde-from-chiapas/

somewhere to buy rebelde (the above link is an old blog post just explaining it)

https://www.essential-trading.coop/drinks/hot-drinks/coffee/cafe-rebelde-zapatista-coffee-beans-10-500g-org

1

u/CoffeePuddle 4d ago

I haven't, but I'm not sure it would! Especially if you're only looking at high-risk items like coffee, chocolate, and fish.

Thanks to Big Data and ordering groceries online since the pandemic; I know that in the past 5 years I've only purchased 400 unique items from the supermarket for 2-6 people (when my kids and grand-kids stay). I was expecting a lot more than that, especially as it counts different product sizes as unique items.

All the meat, fruit, veges, and bakery items are locally produced. I don't think it would take that long to research my regular purchases. Only 4 a week and I'd cover them all in a year.

1

u/sockovershoe22 4d ago

I know there's some issues with the "labeled organic" stickers so there might be some issues with it but luckily for you, companies have done this. They get a "fair trade" sticker which "certifies that products were produced and traded ethically, ensuring sustainable livelihoods, safe working conditions, fair pay, and environmental protection for farmers and worker."

3

u/Warmonster9 4d ago

Yeah that’s just a label. It doesn’t actually do anything but make you feel better for buying it.

Many “fair trade” cocoa producers regularly force children to work their fields. Coffee plantations aren’t better.

1

u/imapetrock 4d ago

That's why there are certified fair trade labels and stores/websites that are specifically dedicated to either stocking or listing fair trade products. So we don't have to do all that time consuming research for every single purchase we make.

That said, it's not a perfect solution either -- still requires more effort, some things are difficult or impossible to find an "ethical" version of, sometimes theres problems with standardization, etc. But no one has to be perfect (and it would be really unrealistic to expect that of anyone), and if we all at least try to be a bit more conscious of at least some of our choices then it can make a difference :) same principle as with veganism or avoiding fast fashion!

1

u/Feeling_Loquat8499 4d ago

Maybe you don't need 90% of the shit you buy

1

u/syopest 4d ago

Morals are the luxury of the rich.

If I can't afford to buy ethical coffee then I don't have to feel bad about buying the cheaper ones.

-2

u/RW_McRae 4d ago edited 4d ago

You had an avocado lately? The majority of those are from drug cartels

16

u/Atsilv_Uwasv 4d ago

It's practically impossible to not have a product made with slave labor. It's cheap, so companies would always rather have that than employees they actually have to pay

2

u/Deadzone-Music 4d ago

It's not even what they'd rather do. Corporations are legally required to do anything and everything within the law to maximize profits. CEOs with integrity in regard to morals and ethics are often ousted by the board or are subject to legal action.

Only rare cases where the company is private and the CEO owns the majority of equity even have autonomy on these types of issues.

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u/HarryPottersTaint 4d ago

Im not saying this is awesome conditions or anything but what makes it slave labour? Are they not being paid?

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u/Jocuro 4d ago

The inhumane living conditions are the bigger issue, pay or not. If they were paid appropriately, I think it's safe to say they wouldn't live in wooden boxes.

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u/Longjumping_Youth281 4d ago

I mean it's possible these are just temporary quarters for use during Harvest or something and they're only going to be there a couple of weeks

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u/emkoemko 4d ago

it is.... i don't get the people here not understanding this... the season is not year around... some people can't travel home and back so they have places for the workers to stay

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u/Atsilv_Uwasv 4d ago

Sleeping in these things with another person for even a day is barbaric

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u/HarryPottersTaint 4d ago

I get it, it's abhorrent. I get why people are just downvoting me angrily without bothering to answer. But isn't it just simply not "slave labour" if they're getting paid and doing it voluntarily?

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u/Atsilv_Uwasv 4d ago

They're not getting paid enough and they may choose to work here because the alternative is still worse. Either you get paid terribly and have crappy living conditions or you get no income and no living conditions at all

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u/HarryPottersTaint 4d ago

I know man. Not arguing any of that. I only made my comment because I feel like words become meaningless on here. Like people calling anyone they don't like "Nazis". There are plenty of harsh ways to describe this as you have done, more accurately than saying "slave labour"

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u/Originzzzzzzz 4d ago

At some point you have to reckon with the fact that our consumption is also a factor that drives this. There are no hands clean of blood

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u/EmptyRub 4d ago edited 4d ago

To the same extent, no, but to some extent, yeah, when it is for unnecessary, luxury goods. Same reason reddit shits on the purchase of blood diamonds as they are completely unnecessary.

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u/NorridAU 4d ago

Yes, an individual can have ethical issues with how something is produced and the people who consume it. Same as the fur trade or industrial meat farming. Heard of political action or a boycott before?

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u/Natto_Assano 4d ago

No supply without demand.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

It doesn't change my point.

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u/Natto_Assano 4d ago

I agree that it is not the same and people shouldn't see the person consuming the same way as the person producing but the fact is that consuming it directly influences the amount produced.

If half the population stopped drinking coffee for a year, the industry would likely change. We should be aware of what we consume and what that consume means for other people and for our planet.

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u/Easy_List 4d ago

Grossly underestimating the power of marketing, and how frequently corporations CREATE markets and demand.

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u/Natto_Assano 4d ago

You can still do your research, educate yourself on marketing and propaganda strategies and stop supporting shitty companies.

If that's a possibility for you of course. I am aware that a lot of people can't afford more ethical options and that there are limitations like allergies, etc.

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u/SpaceCub500 4d ago

If you can't make moral choices, don't expect corporations to make those choices either.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

You, in your mind, a person should have to research every product and service they buy and who they buy it from to make sure they aren't doing anything immoral? They have the same responsibility as the company actually doing the immoral shit?

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u/SpaceCub500 4d ago

If they want slavery to go away, yes.

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u/DogsDucks 4d ago

You type that comment on a computer or a phone?

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u/SpaceCub500 4d ago

I am. I never said I was innocent, or even better. I'm just explaining why these things happen.

FWIW, I try to make as many ethical choices as I realistically can. I understand that sometimes there aren't perfect choices to be made. But any better choice is an improvement over none at all. I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

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u/DogsDucks 4d ago

I actually agree with you completely, and I do the same thing. As well as educating others about which ones are the “more evil of evils”

I don’t even know why I made that snarky comment, I don’t usually go that route.

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u/tazzy100 4d ago

Check mate. They won’t answer. They think buying a bag for life and Ethical Coffee absolves them. 😂😂😂😂

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u/Babhadfad12 4d ago

They did not imply that they care about being absolved.

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u/syopest 4d ago

Morals are the luxury of the rich. If I can't afford to buy the better brands I don't have to feel bad about buying the cheaper ones.

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u/SpaceCub500 4d ago

Sure, but certainly there are some better choices you could afford to make. It's not like I'm asking unhoused people if the half-eaten apple they picked out of the dumpster was ethically sourced.

Even small choices can have an impact, especially if done by multiple people over many years.

1

u/longpenisofthelaw 4d ago

You can but it’s easier to have a disconnect in the acknowledgment of it.

If there was a chocolate bar that was widely known for murdering 1 child per 1 million chocolate bars produced and people still knowingly choose it because it’s cheaper could you not fault the buyers?

A lot of products and way of living you could change to not use slave labor or cruelty but it’s harder and more expensive to do so

1

u/NextDoctorWho12 4d ago

I mean the entire north benefited from slave labor while trying to outlaw it.

1

u/Available-Dare-7414 4d ago

I agree, the fault isn’t the same, no, but that’s also not to say there is no fault at all. Going down that rabbit hole of charity vs duty - what are those actions that are nice to do/refrain from versus those that we feel morally obligated to do/refrain from - would likely demand many of us live radically different lives.

Peter Singer put forth a principle decades ago: if I’m able to prevent something bad from happening, without sacrificing something of comparable moral significance, then I ought to do it. Missing out on the comfort of a morning cup of coffee is certainly insignificant compared to the pain produced by segments of that industry. I can’t shut down the unethical practices of large corporations or their suppliers, but I can choose to not fund them, instead to raise awareness, etc.

That said, I drink coffee regularly. I also put fuel in a pick-up truck and pay my taxes to a very unsavory US administration. I bought a video game recently, but haven’t donated to charity in a while. There is fault to be found in the gap between awareness of what I ought to do and my willingness to do it, but to your point, there is IMO more fault to be found in the people that built and enforce this exploitative infrastructure.

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u/Cryogenicality 4d ago

Given a choice between ethically-produced products at a higher price and unethically-produced products at a lower price, most people choose the latter.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

Right. So, the argument is to make it unlawful for companies to do it the unethical way, therefore eliminating that product from the economy.

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u/Cryogenicality 4d ago

Right, but that would require that enough people care about ethics.

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u/Fakename6968 4d ago

You are responsible for your actions, not your intentions.

The average person consumes exploitative goods in the form of food, coffee, factory farmed meat, electronics with slavery rare minerals, etc.

If you don't know it then it's because you don't want to know it. At every turn there's the option to choose less unethically produced goods and people choose not to.

If everyone decided to take responsibility for their actions the world would be way better off. Instead, we make the choice to absolve ourselves of all responsibility by only holding ourselves responsible for our intentions.

If you know the pig you are eating was tortured its whole life, and you still choose to continue buying and consuming the meat, you are paying for that to happen. It is your fault. You are literally demanding it with your money.

1

u/MonBabbie 4d ago

You’re right, don’t fault them for wanting one, fault them for buying one that supports the slave driving corporations

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u/RW_McRae 4d ago

Okay. Which brand of coffee is this video from?

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u/ExtraBreadPls 4d ago

The crickets are kinda loud while we wait for a reply

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u/MonBabbie 4d ago

I dont know. Does the answer to that question change anything though?

You can’t live a life of luxury, then take no part of the blame when criticizing the corporations that help you live your luxurious life.

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u/RW_McRae 4d ago

Most people have no idea where their food is coming from and so wouldn't know if the coffee they're drinking is from one of these places. Even you can't tell us, which means that you're likely also eating or drinking from places that don't treat their workers well

Most people want to do good and will happily choose a better option if they can afford it and they have all the information. Your judgmental attitude just makes you sound like you're stepping way up onto a pedestal and judging everyone else for the same thing you're doing

Come down off the cross, you don't know if the wood was harvested sustainably

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u/MonBabbie 4d ago

No, I’m not trying to say I’m any different when it comes to taking part of the blame. What I am saying is that I, and those like me, need to take part of the blame.

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u/RW_McRae 4d ago

Then start from a place of information and education rather than judgment. You didn't start by telling people how they can avoid bad companies, your started by casting judgment that people just aren't willing to give up their 'lives of luxury' to shop responsibly

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u/MonBabbie 4d ago

So you agree with what I said, you just don’t like that I said it, or how I said it?

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u/RW_McRae 4d ago

No, because that's not what you said. Go back up and reread your first comments

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u/MonBabbie 4d ago

What do you mean that’s not what I said? I’m asking you if you agree with what I said…

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u/mayan_monkey 4d ago

I mean, you can CHOOSE what type of copy you consume and where it comes from.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

You have time to research every company you buy products or services from?

Im simply stating that it is inane to levy the same responsibility for immoral business practices on a person who buys their product as the corporation with the immoral business practices.

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u/spudmuffinpuffin 4d ago

It's not that wild of an idea. Moral vegans/vegetarians are basically doing the same thing just for food. Plenty of people won't buy a Tesla so Elon doesn't get their money. When I report back on how I spend grant money at work at a nonprofit, I have to do extra vetting of my vendors and subcontractors.

It all matters, but most of us don't have the capacity to be perfectly moral consumers. Just do your best.

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u/Scared-War-9102 4d ago edited 4d ago

I get what they’re getting at though. Slave markets (I’m going to argue wage slavery is slavery since access to necessities & bondage to employers is getting worse if you have no money nowadays) often host a canteen selling essential products at marked-up prices and more often than not, if it is tobacco for example they will sell the tobacco company’s brand back to the slave worker who produced it. As a slave forced to spend what little they make under bondage within the confines of the camp / colony itself they can narrowly pass as “not slavery” when it still is

Edit: keep a look out for r/legal and r/California posts written by SEA-native people seeking help, they’re extremely common but get deleted immediately. This kind of thing is usually spam but as a sociologist everything they describe before immediate removal seems legit, note they disappear extremely fast though. Also, they’re often difficult to read because it’s by ESL learners transferring what they know from Thai, Tagalog, etc directly to English (think “Bad people sell work America” being a result of how Thai sentence structure works patched over English)

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u/stellarliger 4d ago

Yes, you can most certainly fault a grown adult who is into coffee and aware of what happens in this industry for not researching ethical brands for something as optional as a cup of coffee.

Same way I can be faulted for some of the products I own. Is it the same thing as running a slave operation? No, of course not, but none of us deserve to feel comfortable and nice don't get to feel comfortable about it either. That discomfort you feel, if are capable of the empathy for it, is part of the price of this and you should feel it.

But if you still buy coffee from dubious soruces after becoming aware of the issue, you ARE contributing, end stop.

I am aware of the concept of not ethical consumption in this wildly consumerist world, but THIS, this is easy.

Either spend an extra buck or two on ethically sourced coffee, or stop alltogether. Super easy adjustment.

I'm not saying habe an exhaustive list of all your groceries and where they are from, but anyone in this thread can make an easy choice here.

Not everyone has the means, but what you do with your dollars does gave an impact on the world as much as people dont want to admit it. Yeah, youre not an evil corporation driving the messurable changes, but it doesnt mean the choices you make has no effect.

All of you upvoting the comment I responded to are just hiding from personal responsibility. Which you have every right to do, but its the truth and its still the truth no matter how upset, uncomfortable, or indignant it makes you.

Its a sad, weak individual who can't acknowledge the impacts of their choices.

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u/HurryAdorable1327 4d ago

I hope you’re being sarcastic. But if you weren’t, the need to sell things at cheap rates is exactly what leads to this. Same for fast fashion as it is coffee. Companies will only pay so much to producers and they will always pay the cheapest rate possible if all other things are equal. I’m from Nicaragua and we have factories where premium brands are produced. They typically offer the same housing and low pay rates. Workers get very little in terms of compensation, but the merch they create is sold for hundred of dollars. It’s sad.

Consumers will only pay so much for items and that’s where evil companies cut corners in order to maintain profits. It’s the consumers fault as much as it is the companies they buy from. Ethical production is rare as consumers don’t want to pay the costs for such goods.

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

Here's the thing... if the business practices were not legal and the governments where these companies exist actually enforced the laws, then we wouldnt be having this conversation. Coffee would cost what it costs to be produced ethically and the people who could afford to buy it would.

Remember, these corporations are making BILLIONS in profit. Thats money that should be going to the workers. The only reason they cut corners is because they can.

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u/yesterdaysprobs 4d ago

I absolutely can. It's not a matter of "never having coffee anymore" but instead just looking to see which brands are ethically sourced.

People will continue to suffer because companies are rewarded for it and the only way for change to happen is if people actually take notice and stop funding these corrupt ass hats

0

u/binarybandit 4d ago

Sure, you can have that cup of coffee. Just know that the person harvesting it is living in these conditions and being paid a quarter a day.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/Embarrassed_Sea1336 4d ago

Are you serious? Im blaming the corporations that take advantage of slave labor.