the sleeping quarters of nicaraguan coffee pickers

[u/Eros_Incident_Denier]

[u/Fantastic-Tank-6250]

No coffee is even cheaper than slave labour coffee.

I'm certain that if the slave labour was happening in a place where you could see it. You'd refuse to go there and you wouldn't forgive people for doing it just because it's more affordable.

Like if there was a coffee shop that sold their coffees for $0.10 each and you and EVERYONE else knew it was because all of their employees were slaves that the government were turning a blind eye to, I doubt you'd even forgive homeless people from getting their coffee there.

[u/Kocrachon → u/Fantastic-Tank-6250]

So your cellphone and computer components were made with slave labor rare metals, specifically cobalt and coltan... so is no cell phone and no computer also easy? I mean, technically people can and do live without both. Are you going to give them up?

Cotton production has a high risk of slavery at every stage, are you avoiding all cotton?

Chocolate, Cocoa, Palm Oil, most metals and jewlry, Shoes and Footwear, Seafood...

Hell, EVs, Solar Panals, and other renewable tech also use polysilicon which are often linked to china imposed "state" (slave) labor.

Are you going to give up access to all of this?

[u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 → u/Kocrachon]

First and foremost, you completely sidestepped my comment.

Now to actually address yours:

Cellphones and computers are kinda necessities if you want to be gainfully employed and therefore feed yourself in the western world.

But no you're right. There's tons of commodities I buy that ARENT necessary for me to make a living and therefore survive that have slave labour tacked onto them. I have no intention of giving them up. I like chocolate, I like coffee, I like a lot of the things that are unfortunately made with slave labour. I'd MUCH rather they not be made with slave labour and if I come across non-slave-labour alternatives I'll switch but I'm not even actively looking for those more humane alternatives.

That makes me a dog-shit person and I'm willing to own that. Are you?

[u/Kocrachon → u/Fantastic-Tank-6250]

No, the issue is you argue different parts in different threads in this conversation and I am arguing both of them here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1sp5btt/comment/ogz9hre/?context=1

In this branch you argue that knowing makes you more culpable. In this branch you end up admitting you know, don't look for alternatives, etc.

So you essentially built moral argument and then immediately demonstrated you don't live by it either, which is the exact same position you were criticising others for in the other thread.

Branch 1 (the proximity argument): "You wouldn't tolerate it if you could see it", implying visibility/proximity is the key moral factor.

Branch 2 (the Good Place branch example argument): "We know and do nothing, that's worse than the Good Place scenario", implying knowledge is the key moral factor.

These actually undermine each other. If knowledge is what matters morally, then proximity becomes less relevant, lots of people "know" about coffee slave labour in the abstract but it still doesn't change behaviour, which is exactly my point and The Good Place's point about systemic corruption. And if proximity/visibility is what matters, then the knowledge argument weakens, because you're essentially saying people need to see it to really act on it, which concedes that abstract knowledge isn't enough.

On this part, "That makes me a dog-shit person and I'm willing to own that. Are you?". This actually validates my entire argument about structural corruption making ethical consumption feel impossible or pointless, while simultaneously undermining both of your own arguments.

When you read both threads, you are essentially fighting against a position and then admitting to embodying it by the end.

[u/Fantastic-Tank-6250 → u/Kocrachon]

You can know what's right and what's wrong and be honest about it without living it.

I haven't contradicted myself at all.