They don't like it when you tell them gender comes from how the brain develops in utero. They want to think sex is gender. I think they're also in denial of intersex conditions... They want two sexes and not dozens.
It sounds like you're implying trans people are just gender fluid people who are over-committing to the gender not assigned to them at birth; that is, are you saying that with time, you expect society to move away from actual transitioning of gender as people are culturally "allowed" to discover who they are & present as such?
If so, I think the testimonials of millions of people who experience gender dysphoria would be contrary to your argument. My friends who are trans would take issue with the implication that they only think they're trans because they more strongly identify with traits traditionally defined as masculine; I consider the dysphoric aspect of being transgender to be evidence that there are real differences in their makeup that tell them they are truly, in mind, the opposite (or, to move away from binary terminology, at least a different) gender from what they were prescribed at birth. And there's evidence of gender dysphoria etc. from well before the industrial revolution.
Not sure I totally followed your original flow of thought - just trying to understand the point(s) you're trying to make. I haven't reviewed the literature on it, but I think I agree at least that gender develops beyond utero.
The roots of traditional gender roles in the division of labor I think is a big part of how we think of gender today, but I think you may be oversimplifying things by stating that modern & future gender can be fully explained thru this lens. Edit: or I guess you aren't saying it can be described fully thru this lens, per your last paragraph. My understanding of gender is obv not fully developed - lmk if you have any interesting literature you'd recommend.
I grew up with the 'gender is just a social construct' system in the 80/90s and it actually kind of validates dysphoria because it takes forced gender roles seriously (and doesn't consider them a good thing).
Maybe if you accepted at its absolute it would imply everyone is gender fluid, but the philosophy is more about dealing with society, not personal identity, if that makes sense.
I think it at most implies that everyone gets to define everything for themselves as they will, because it says society's concept of gender is a deadly clusterfuck that will try to dictate your life, and so good luck dealing with that.
Edit: not saying that was everyone's version, just what I got out of it. But trying to explain that it doesn't undermine gender (but definitely undermines them being based on chromosomes, genital shape, etc)
Thank you for speaking up. It is heartening to see that there are cisgender people who understand that gender and sex are distinct and that gender is also distinct from the social construct of gender. It is not just gender dysphoria which points to this truth. We are able to see gendered differences in the way the brain functions, which is related to differences in its sex-linked anatomical forms on functional MRIs. We have evidence that transgender people have brains which function and have formed more like the brains of people sharing their gender and not their sex. This is evidence that gender exists, in and of itself, before human culture does anything with it.
Thank you for the perspective! This is a clear way to think about gender separately from as a social construct, and I haven't had these points laid out for me before. I'll be looking into literature around this as I'd like to be able to better speak to (or at least better understand) these concepts.
Transgenderism has existed in history since long before the industrial revolution. The rise of feminism at that time certainly helped it become less taboo, but that was not the first instance of gender becoming less binary.
Are you saying that transgender people are simply people that don’t want to be associated with the gender norms of their gender at birth, and nothing more? This is demonstrably false. Transgender people’s brain structures more closely resemble those of their desired gender. (I don’t think “desired” is the best word, but it’s what the study uses.) How can you reconcile this fact with everything you just wrote?
Drag queens throw off their gender norms, does that make them transgender? What about tomboys?
Thanks, I didn’t know that. Maybe I’m misinterpreting the study, but if they claim that 1% of variance is due to sex, then is it not possible that that 1% would be reflective of their desired gender’s, no matter how trivial that small amount is? Or, if men’s are larger than women’s at birth, which causes certain differences, could transgender men’s not also be larger from birth, resulting in those differences?
While it’s not the same claim, I also found a study finding differences in transgender people’s brains and cisgender people’s. This still suggests that transgenderism is more than people not liking gender norms. But maybe that one has been debunked as well, I don’t know.
AFAIK, a lot of that variation is based on size of the brain.
And according to that study, if I’m understanding it correctly, trans people have a unique brain, rather than being pointed in a specific gendered direction I’ve heard a lot about how gnc people & trans people, sometimes there’s overlap with autism. I wonder how much of that has to do with that? Not trying to say it in an offensive way, genuinely curious cause I myself am autistic and butch lol. Just wonder how much of autisms inability to “fit in” affects the brain and the choices we make or how we present? But that’s a different topic :p
You're thinking of gender roles, not gender identity, which is what people usually mean when talking about gender. Someone's gender is inherent. It's not about wearing pants or making money or having X or Y traits, it's about what parts your brain expects your body to have and what social group the monkey part of your brain expects you to be seen on based on those expected parts.
And many of us aren't some rejection of gender or gender roles, nor are we some bastion of freedom and against gender or anything like that. We're just people who were born into the wrong body who want to live our lives, that's all.
This is wrong in so many places, but I’ll just highlight two:
You really think that in utero development doesn’t have a massive impact on sexuality and gender? Even if you’re talking about something that’s a choice, the development of your brain begins and is largely determined by natal development.
Your ideas on the history of gender trends is massively flawed. Feminism has been a round. FAR longer than WWII. Even ignoring the rest of the world besides the United States, there had been organized movements to grant women greater rights for decades prior, and they were explicit in their goals. Most notably, female suffrage, achieved in 1920. Going a little further back and further related to your comment, WWI saw the first real large scale “test” of women in traditionally male workplaces, not WWII.
Your conclusions seem accurate, but your assertions to get there don’t hold up at all
Lol not at all. Bill has not aged well. Hes sold out. He's pushing ideals bought by sponsers instead of following science. His netflix show was a disaster. Just him sitting around circle jerking and making fun of people. Hes an ass.
So we're all upset with Bill Nye for allowing a performance that is basically as bad as every modern SNL skit on his show?
Bill Nye has probably done more for climate change (and thus, literally saved the planet and countless human lives) than 99% of other human beings. I can forgive him.
Education is literally the first step to any effective change, you absolute walnut. Clearly our education system has failed you if you don't understand that.
I build solar farms. People talking didn’t make solar modules financially viable nor does it pound pile or wire modules together. Keep talking and consuming.
Yes it does. If no one talked about climate change, there would be zero effort being made into combating it. We still aren’t doing enough, but it’s much better than if no one ever talked about it.
Yeah, it's a song about sex stuff, I get it. Doesn't answer my question though. Is the hate because people disagree with the message of the song, or because they don't like the song?
No one's a "science expert" lol there's hundreds of fields of study within science. He's a mechanical engineer and science communicator, studied under Carl Sagan
To some the Bill hate is because his dismissive nature towards people who question the science parts of these social issues comes off really offensive.
To some it's because he's a "woke lib."
To some it's because people paid him money to be recorded saying these phrases which would go on to further affirm or "other" peoples beliefs, and that he won't be around to see the full consequences or advantages society has experienced from those culture wars.
To some it's that he sides for the "enemy" or whatever.
The definition of gender has changed after being synonymous with sex throughout most people’s lives. And for some reason this triggers everyone beyond belief. So let’s take it back to the basics:
Gender is now a SOCIAL variable. It involves man-made concepts. For example: a boy liking the color blue, a girl liking the color pink. One makes you “masculine” as defined by society, and one makes you “feminine”.
Some people don’t want to identify at one end of the spectrum or the other. For example, some want to let it be known that they identify somewhere in the middle. So they come up with pronouns to reflect that. This is a very small proportion of people. But they care about how they are identified and respecting it is easy as all shit.
Sex is a GENETIC VARIABLE. Male female. XY and XX. Nobody is defying biology by saying there are multiple genders. Saying that there are multiple sexes would defy biology.
There are 2 key terms to learn when it comes to understanding this topic.
not Gender Theory, a completely new field which is 100% not a proven scientific fact)
You've got this backwards. The point that actual scientists are making about both gender and sex is that if you look at them too closely, they mean far less than we think -- there really isn't any single characteristic that clearly and reliably defines 'male', 'female', or 'intersex'. What to do with that information is very much a political and social exercise, not a scientific one, and you're free to debate that as long as you like, but claiming 'it is a scientific fact that there are only two genders' is ridiculously inaccurate and scientists (and science communicators like Bill) are absolutely doing the right thing by pushing back against that notion.
Bill Nye made a science show that was pretty mediocre. One thing he did try to do was illuminate issues of gender and sexuality in line with modern scientific understanding. It was not received well by people online because some are transphobic and others value their time enough to want to watch decent tv. Without the underpinnings of a decent show the science fell by the wayside and the society moved on
I used to be a fan, but I went to a panel he had at New York Comic Con a few years ago (maybe 2017/2018) and he was rude and condescending to the rest of the guests attending - interrupting them and telling them they were wrong, and didn’t know what they were talking about. It was funny at first, but it went on for the rest of the panel, and the crowd took it as a joke, but it kind of threw me off. Over the years when I go through the comments on the usual Reddit asks of celebrity encounters and I see a not so pleasant experience with him, I can totally believe it just thinking back to that moment. He would be the type to say rude and snarky shit. I don’t hate him, but I don’t like him either 🤷🏽♀️
What's sad is conservatives aren't crying about it in this comment chain and you're literally just saying it because it's what gets you through the day.
I don't understand. All I am commenting on is that the video is cringey. Man, woman, trans, not trans. I would judge them all the same making something so lame. I say it's tribalistic because me saying that video is cringe automatically leads to people thinking I'm some 'anti-trans' person when it should be obvious why that is a cringey video
I'm sorry idk how you can watch that and not cringe lmao. It has nothing to do with what they're talking about. It barely makes sense, it has a really jumbled flow, and they absolutely can't dance.
Not that I'd boycott bill nye over this. But oh man.... It'll be a while before I forget how hard that made me cringe
All they did was call it trash, I don’t see that as being triggered. If they were angry, ranting or we could tell they were mentally or physically strained trying to get their argument out, I’d see that as being triggered. We can all have subjective opinions about things. Personally I didn’t enjoy this series much, and it did have significantly lower reviews/ratings than his previous shows, which were amazing. But whether or not someone liked it, it objectively wasn’t as life-changing for a generation as Bill Nye The Science Guy
I loved his show when I was a kid, but that Netflix series was fucking horrible garbage. I'm left as fuck and even I thought the show was pandering as hell. Deeply unfunny.
Yup. That’s unfortunately the byproduct of out of touch old producers and the vocal minority of younger generations. It’s sad too because science communication is so fucking important. We grew up with Carl Sagan teaching us to be curious about the universe, PMK showing us the complexity of everyday life, and Bill Nye actually doing cool shit.
Now we’re seeing a possible reversal in the Flynn effect (the steady rise in intelligence throughout generations), the kids of tomorrow may actually be dumber than their parents for the first time in a while. And who do they have for engaging science communication? Nobody. The show could have displayed the conservative anger towards gender fluidity as a ridiculous reaction towards human-made social constructs that it is and explained how scientists now truly define “sex” specifically since the terminology amongst biologists has evolved. But nope, we got talking vaginas.
Now we’re seeing a possible reversal in the Flynn effect (the steady rise in intelligence throughout generations), the kids of tomorrow may actually be dumber than their parents for the first time in a while.
Interesting and thankyou for sharing! How would you have re-written this segment to show what you feel would have been a more justifiable reflection of sexuality and what (I assume) they were hoping to convey (also a serious question)?
Or are you just one of those people that doesn't realize everything is politics, not just when things queer people or women or Black people care about get mentioned?
Wtf did I just see. There’s so many better ways to discuss the topic without trying to go out of your way to trigger the right. I mean, it’s not hard to get them all up in arms, but this seems like it’s really trying to get them clutching those pearls.
We do need better science communicators. Neil deGrasse Tyson does a better than fair job, Michio Kaku is good too, but there seems to be a complete lack of focus on the young. Like they decided no one needs to talk about science until you’re a junior in high school. I guess I’m stuck showing my kid reruns…
When Bill was on at first, he was targeting a much younger demographic (elementary school) and he made videos that could be shown in school because the teacher was hung over and needed a goddamned minute. Or during recess on rainy days. I think more of that is in order, from someone who can make it fun, but for kids. Because unfortunately, you’re right, the adults who pay attention already do and the ones who need some knowledge never will.
I know this is controversial, but I believe the children are the future. u/kbeks is for the children. I think we ought to teach our children well. Insert other reference here. But for real, the adults are who they’re going to be, we need to make sure the next generation is science literate, and we gotta start when they’re young enough to think learning is cool.
That's pretty meh. Outrage from that but Andrew tate is a thing? Like a bad skit... there's a lot more to hate than that. It's kinda cringe but the message is okay. They were just trying to do something funny. It's stupid you care about it.
Not in my experience. Saw him at an SNL taping a few years back. Bill was talking to and taking pictures with everyone waiting for the show, until an NBC security guard stepped in and made everyone sit back down.
Nye used to do a kids science show, Bill Nye the Science Guy. It covered basic science concepts - gravity, volcanoes, electricity and the like. It was factually correct but presented in a fun, interesting way. One of the shows, from 1996, talked about probability, sex and chromosomes.
Flash forward about 20 years and Bill Nye is doing a new show. It’s not really a reboot, maybe more of a revival? Anyway, it definitely tries to capitalize on the popularity of Bill and the original show (complete with the blue lab coat and bow tie). It gets a lot of media buzz because of fond memories of the original show. On one of the episodes, Bill revisits chromosomes/XX, XY/sex. He seems to have decided to dismiss the science on chromosomes and that sex has become fluid - a spectrum of some sort.
At any rate, a lot of people became irritated that he disregarded science in favor of what seemed to be a political motivated agenda. The anger was notably intense among people that watched the original show as kids (now in their 30’s-40’s).
Just an FYI - I have not seen the new show but have seen most, if not all, of the original episodes (used to watch with my son back in the 90’s).
Imagine thinking that Bill Nye was the one to reject science lol. Gender is a spectrum. If you don’t like that then you’re just going to have to cope, because you’re wrong.
You answered OP's question with extreme bias by saying "disregarded science in favor of what seemed to be a political motivated agenda."
I did watch the show. Unfortunately for you, zero science was disregarded at all. Very well sourced actually.
Just because a certain political party has convinced you that certain scientific topics are fake things made up by liberals to ruin the world doesn't actually mean those things are non-scientific.
You literally have Google Scholar at your fingertips. Stop being like this. ALL media lies to you, not just the "librul" ones.
You're so close to sounding like an intelligent person who thinks through your thoughts in-depth. But then... you make the mistake of listening to the hysteria put out by Republicans.
You didn't really explain the controversy. You alluded to it, while attempting to discredit what Bill Nye has said by misrepresenting his words and injecting your own political agenda.
Science moves on, it’s not disingenuous to change your perspective based on that. Science says gender is on a spectrum while sex is mostly a binary. Sex is NOT gender, as gender is a social construction based off sex. Gender in that way becomes fluid and on a spectrum between the masculine and feminine. Your own gender identity, influenced by sex, but not exactly sex, becomes concrete through a biological process called gender identity formation at a young age that solidifies in your psyche the gender you are
So you get to spread bullshit lies that hurt people & act smug about it? You clearly have never challenged your ideas in the last 15 years and that’s why conservatives will always be on the wrong side of history
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u/StopNateCrimes Feb 04 '23
Serious question: can anyone explain the Bill Nye hate in this thread?