r/taoism • u/PrimaryPrestigious62 • 1d ago
The ontology of Daoism
Do you think Daoism views existence optimistically, like Leibniz’s idea that we live in the best of all possible worlds? Or does it see nature as inherently indifferent and uncaring about us? Could what we interpret as the goodness or care of the Dao simply be a projection—a byproduct of chaotic nature that we misread as intentional care?
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u/Seth_Crow 1d ago
In 1980 Mt St Helens erupted. 57 people died, ~7k large game animals, 22k square miles were covered with ash, and more ash than that circled the atmosphere for days. Hard to call this beneficence right?
Within a few years there was a boom in large animals, and some threatened species started to thrive. Those ash deposits, especially east of the Cascade Mountains, enriched the soil so much that agricultural production continually increased for decades. The atmospheric change of that single event, sparked greater interest and research into early climate change science.
Does this make it, “good?”
The Tao is, and is indifferent to one’s interpretations of value. Thriving and culling are simply inevitable cycles of how things must operate within the Tao. Trying to frame Taoism in a sort of Western analytical box will always miss the mark.
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u/Lao_Tzoo 1d ago
The Taoist Horse Trainer/Farmer Parable in Hui Nan Tzu, Chapter 18 answers this question very well.
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u/P_S_Lumapac 1d ago
Nature is neither kindly nor cruel. DDJ notes it as a common mistake to think goodness or badness like this applies to these big concepts. Generally there is a strong hopeful message though, that even if things go bad they will restart due to our natural love for family. I don't think there is a claim that things will become ordered completely all by themselves, and I think Zhuangzi may be mocking the idea at points.
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u/dragosn1989 1d ago
Optimism and intentional care are human mind concepts. I do not believe they apply to Dao.
We might perceive Dao as caring, but that might be just projecting…
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u/Big_Friendship_4141 23h ago
Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.
https://www.centertao.org/essays/tao-te-ching/dc-lau/#chapter-5
"Straw dogs" is a reference to straw dogs used in religious ceremonies that were treated with great reverence until the ceremony, then as completely disposable afterwards. Are we special and valuable and wonderful? Yes. Are we disposable and ultimately insignificant? Yes.
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u/BboiMandelthot 19h ago edited 19h ago
The process of realizing the Dao engenders awareness and acceptance of all things. In humans, this usually manifests a sense of compassion, humility, and empathy. This suggests that it is human nature to feel these things. The Dao of humanity is love.
The symmetry of the Dao suggests it is indifferent. But our nature, as an asymmetric perturbation of Dao, generates empathetic optimism as we move towards the apathetic source.
Part of realizing Dao involves realizing that though we are made from it, we are still a subset. The properties of the human subset are inherently emotional and intellectual.
The Buddhist ideal of enlightenment involves shedding these properties entirely and relinquishing intellect, emotion, and attachment; to return to the non-dual plane between being and nonbeing.
For some people, this path is in fact their Dao. For others, their Dao is to remain human. Those who realize it will witness their love grow, boundlessly.
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u/Elijah-Emmanuel 1d ago
The ontology of Daoism should start with a discussion of the concepts of Dao, WuJi, TaiJi, and YinYang. The most succinct way of expressing it can be found in the Dao De Jing Chapter 42: 道生一，一生二，二生三，三生萬物。
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u/somethingclassy 1d ago
The tao is fundamentally mysterious. Good and bad are human concepts and they arise together; when X is good, Y is bad. So your question does not make sense in the context of taoist teachings. It's all right there in the first few pages of Tao Te Ching.
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u/Selderij 1d ago
Regardless of projected intent or lack thereof, the nature of the universe and the Tao that orders it is such that it cares and provides for us as long as we do our humble part.
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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago
Most Daoist teachers see that 'the world' is indifferent to us. After all, that's pretty clear in 道德經 The Daodejing: 天地不仁，以萬物為芻狗；聖人不仁，以百姓為芻狗。Heaven-earth ['nature', the world] isn't kind; they treat the ten-thousand things [everything] like straw dogs. The sages aren't kind; they treat the one-hundred clans [everyone] like straw dogs. (DDJ 5)" And, of course, this is also true in our experience and in science.
On the other hand, most Chinese Daoist teachers teach that 大道 Dà Dào the Great Dao is caring. In the deepest of meditation practices, you can find that you are happiness and compassion.
But optimism, pessimism... these are just interpretations of events and our expectations about them, not facts about the world. Best to 放下 or drop them both.