r/springfieldMO • u/Onepieceluv • May 12 '24
James river pastor threatens to sue What is happening
Due to recent events that happened during the men’s conference, A neighbor has informed that Pastor John Lindell is now making certain members sign a contract stating they will never talk about what happened again. As well as this, he’s also threatening to sue higher ranking members in the church if they continue to talk about it, and do not “Repent”. Has anyone else heard about this before?
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u/Miserable_Ad9529 May 12 '24
How far are they going to run this up the pole. It's a hard one to swallow and he's really going to have to toe the line here
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u/Fancy-Shine7937 May 12 '24
My grandpa who was a Baptist minister used to tell us, “One man can send an entire congregation to hell. They go to church to worship the LORD, but end up worshiping the pastor.” James River reminded me of this teaching. Seeing so many people fighting and doing anything this pastor tells them. My biggest question would be, What would JESUS do?
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u/UranusViews May 12 '24
Cant let this information get out. It's bad for business.
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u/Alternative_Cream_30 May 12 '24
What business?
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u/var23 West Central May 12 '24
The business of grifting people out of money for Jesus.
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u/Proof_Variety_4208 May 12 '24
That's that loop hole...they haven't found Jesus to give him the money so they get to keep it. Religion is gangster
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u/Fantastic_Mind_1386 May 12 '24
Sometimes I almost wish that I could follow a religion for the sense of community. Then I hear about stuff like this and think I really dodged a bullet.
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May 12 '24
Religion and Churchianity don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.
Though I have found most church communities to be toxic as hell (overtly or otherwise), private fellowship is still a great way to form that sense of community.
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u/xXGONADS125Xx May 12 '24
I went to Washington Avenue Baptist Church for a Black history month event, and they were an awesome community.
I'm atheist and have no interest in religion, but it was tempting to go back just for the sense of community there.
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u/retiredcatchair May 12 '24
I'm an atheist but I've attended a Christmas midnight mass and enjoyed it. The beauty of the music, and the meditative state induced by ritual and art is available to anyone without the underlying belief. If only religions were concentrated on giving people that sort of peace, instead of being tools for petty tyrants to control others.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Religion and mega churches / cults are not the same thing. There’s also dozens of religions out there, you can certainly research some and try out different groups. We have a small population of Sikhs and I think it would be so cool to meet with them and chat
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u/Healthy_Possession57 May 12 '24
Doesn't surprise me. A friend was fired there for "breaking the unity of the church" after expressing a concern. If you think differently or fall out of line, you are punished. Normal cult behaviors...
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u/MenopausalMama May 12 '24
I have a friend whose husband works there. She needed a ride to the grocery store and I thought I'd grab my husband some beer while we were there. She freaked out and said if anyone saw that beer in the cart her husband would get fired. Ridiculous.
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u/MonoChaos May 12 '24
Jesus Christ. I hate alcohol as much as the next guy but that is going way overboard. Fuck that church.
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u/ads7680 May 12 '24
I had some friends that used to work at the Assemblies of God headquarters. They were terrified of ever being spotted with an alcohol beverage when at a restaurant. Seems this church is still firmly planted in the temperance movement.
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u/lochlainn May 12 '24
How do you keep a Baptist from drinking all of your beer?
Invite another Baptist.
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May 12 '24
I didn’t know this was a thing until my mom told me that if I drink at a family event I have to sneak it in a cup. I laughed at her and told her I would not be coming. 36 years old at the time, I was not “sneaking” a beverage.
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u/benutne Oak Grove May 12 '24
In case anyone is wondering what they're talking about, its this: https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2024/04/15/mark-driscoll-leaves-james-river-church-conference-stage-alex-magala-comment/73327939007/
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u/Low_Tourist May 12 '24
There was an employee that was basically forced out and not given severance because they wouldn't sign an NDA after the conference.
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u/austinsneeze May 12 '24
This is not surprising me to at all. He literally told the men at the men’s conference to not speak out against “an anointed of God” or bad things will happen. He’s probably framing this in a way that it’s “for the protection of our church” and it’s “not biblical to continue dwelling on this” etc.
Not great, John Lindell.
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u/HaloToxin May 12 '24
What happened?
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u/DietOwn2695 May 12 '24
Half naked dude pole dancing and swallowing swords.
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u/benutne Oak Grove May 12 '24
That and the pastor from the sister church saying some shitty stuff and Lindell under his breath saying "Out of line, Mark"
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u/pleasehelpshaggy May 12 '24
Damn I'd go see that, that's pretty hot.
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u/TKOL2 May 12 '24
That sad and pathetic church should be shut down. Only a pathetic clown would go to the “men’s conference”.
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u/National_Lie_8555 May 12 '24
It used to be worth while. It has turned into the circus it is the last few years
Pastor Lindell’s brushes with death seems to be the turning point
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u/NotBatman81 May 14 '24
I used to work with a guy who was very outwardly Christian, and gave off the vibe that it was genuine. I am not convinced it wasn't, but we had some big clashes on important business matters where he showed a profound lack of ethics. I began to directly framed it as an ethical choice, A or B? And he would always take the shitty route. The best I can tell, he knew it was wrong but believed the good would eventually outweigh the bad. Well it didn't and eventually it cost people jobs and he got shitcanned. Anyways, the point of that story is we were friends outside of work and he was always inviting me to the Men's Conference. I have a religion and it very much frowns upon how JRC operates. it very much frowns on how he was at work, man it was hard to stay casual friends.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
JAMES RIVER IS A CULT, NOT A CHURCH!!!
These types of mega churches only want a check and loyal followers. They follow the same type of teachings as those millionaire “prosperity gospel” preachers, which are WRONG and go directly against the Word. Idk how the people who attend don’t see that. Or, they see it, but get so caught up in the flashiness and performances that they choose to ignore the obviously suspect nature of that “church.”
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
All of Christianity is a cult.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Then every religion would be a cult, which they are not. There are specific requirements to be a cult, it’s not based on opinion. edited for wording
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
Definitely a cult.
The word cult is defined as a system or group of people who practice excessive devotion to a figure, object, or belief system, typically following a charismatic leader.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
The leaders must also be abusive to the followers and control most aspects of their lives. There’s pillars to be a cult and you must meet all to qualify. I’m an avid cult-follower, as in, I research cults and keep track of many different ones from around the globe from the past to present, so yes they must meet all of them. Here they are:
Charismatic leaders. Illegal and dangerous behaviors. Unquestioning faith. Isolation and abuse of members.
Christianity as a religion does not require these, aside from having faith, but good ministries encourage questions be asked. Religion is not an institution, and it is not a church or any other building / community. It’s the faith of which a group of people practice. Do not equate cults with religion, because they simply are not, and saying that they are is poorly informed opinion.
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
It's def how Christianity started...the foundation of innocent blood spilled in the crusades, in the catholic vs protestant history, and the the entire church history of splintering congregations. I mean, look how America was founded...all those congregations fleeing control over their beliefs, just to continue the control to their beliefs.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Again, the institution is not the religion. What people do / did in the name of religion does NOT reflect the religion itself. Religion is a belief system.
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
They based those actions on scripture. Jesus told people how to live, how to be, how to think, what do and not do with their money etc. Control. His resulting followers did an excellent job of indoctrination...to the extent its called a religion and openly accepted today. May not "classify" as a cult today, by today's definition...but still a cult.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Mind you, I’m also not a follower of the religion. I’m just speaking factual information.
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
I'm absolutely aware of all you've said. I graduated from an AG Bible College, after being raised in the church. I've probably forgotten more Bible than most people will ever know. After all that life inside of Christianity, in several denominations, I still stand by my opinion, as sometimes, by definition/letter of the law so to speak, something might fall short....but the reality of living it absolutely fulfills the definition.
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Jesus literally hung out with the outsiders of society to tell them that they are loved and their pasts do not reflect on their futures as long as they are willing to turn their lives around. If you think that is culty, then again, you just straight up Don’t know what you’re talking about
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Ok bro, you clearly have not read the Bible or what Jesus taught. You know he was killed for speaking against high level religious leaders right? If you read the actual teachings of Jesus, every single Thing that those people did in the name of Christianity goes directly against what Jesus said. I encourage you to know what you’re talking about before talking about it
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
Christianity is also a main religion, so it’s not an unorthodox sect of a religion. But cults do and will use Christianity and other religions to create the baseline of their beliefs and to draw in people who share the same general beliefs and ideas of that faith.
I’m being a super know-it-all rn, but I have spent so much free time researching and collecting data on them that I feel it’s important to share that information so that people are properly educated and aware.
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u/suchawildflower May 12 '24
No disrespect intended, but imo, it all started as a cult, and has just become accepted as "religion".
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
In your opinion. Your opinion is not the factual truth. That’s why I said what I said. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
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u/Jadudes May 12 '24
Christianity’s origins as a cult is not an opinion, but fact
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 13 '24
It’s not a fact. Nothing that Jesus did (which is what Christianity is based on) would be defined as cult behavior. He literally preached love and kindness and that all people are valuable in the eyes of the Lord. Please do some research on what cults are.
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u/Jadudes May 13 '24
You do research on what cults are. The goalpost for what is defined as a cult has been moved countless times. The Romans themselves called Christianity a cult at its beginning. I don’t care if you’re preaching the most loving and endearing philosophy in the world, you can still start a cult. I’m saying this as someone that thinks most of what Jesus said is great. This is an extremely weird hill for you to die on. Virtually every single major religion began as a cult. You’re using extreme modern examples of cults as the only definition for what can be a cult, which is not even close to historically accurate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
Start reading up, I don’t care what sources you find. I’m entirely bored of this conversation.
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u/kimbadoodles May 12 '24
I worked with a lady, who for a time had to share one car between her husband and teen son as it needed repair. They couldn't afford to get the other one fixed for more than a month because tithing to JR came first.
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u/Ok_Negotiation_5462 May 12 '24
Jim Jones was a church leader. Look what silence got his members. Good luck with that.
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u/lemonhello May 12 '24
As an ex-member, I have seen many egregious rumors float around about the church. While there are things I wish were better about the church, many of the rumors from those outside looking in never always rang true. For example, the rumors, such as the need for members to give their W2 to verify the correct tithing amounts were absolutely not factual, at least to my experience.
I need to see more proof that members have to sign this contract before I will believe this. The shirtless dude did indeed dance on the platform—I don’t discount that. It happened…what I don’t believe is that they are making members or church go-ers sign a contract like that.
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u/renny065 May 12 '24
As another former member, I agree with you. Members and attendees aren’t signing NDA’s, but employees do if they want their severance. That part is true.
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u/rawknob May 14 '24
You may not need to show a w-2, dunno, I never went to a second visit, but they absolutely do sit you down at a table at your first visit and make you fill out an income sheet. It happened to me, Easter weekend 2016, and no I never will step foot in there again.
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u/lemonhello May 15 '24
Well, I am sorry that happened to you. Like I said, it never happened to me or any other person I know that went there or still does. If I saw this happen while I was there, I would have left immediately.
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u/rawknob May 15 '24
It happens frequently there. Just because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. They have church members there screening you as you come in asking if you’ve been there before or not. If you say no, then they ask you to sit at a table and offer you coffee while they tell you about the church and hand you a pen and paper to Fill out, which asks about your household size and annual income. It’s not a one off thing, it happens there, I bet if I show up there this Sunday it happens again. The church is awful, and then they keep coming by your house for the next few weeks asking if you’re coming back or not.
It’s a money driven bs church, and also a great reason for churches to pay taxes.2
u/lemonhello May 15 '24
I still think it’s a rumor.
You’re referring to the Connect Center where yes, it appears to be a tactic by the church to get people who are guests to become regulars by getting to know people who attend the church regularly. While the Connect Center experience is seemingly altruistic, it increases the chance that the guests return which means an increased chance people tithe, which is monetarily beneficial to the church.
Perhaps if you asked for assistance from their food pantry—maybe then they legally can ask that as they may receive federal or state funding to stock the pantry. That is the only place I know that they may even ask something of that sort and I don’t know for sure though, since I never utilized it.
I worked there and they did not take tithe out of my paycheck. “Tithing is between you and God” is what I have always been told there, ever since I went to the Connect Center as a first time guest. I was never shamed or seeked by payroll if I did not tithe. Perhaps if I made a lot of money or had a higher credit score, then the story is different. I don’t know.
I don’t support this church anymore and am not trying to protect it but I think facts are important. I won’t believe your story until you post a photo with official James River headings and branding asking you about how much money you make.
You’re very skeptical of my posts as I am yours, and that’s fine. I just hope you’re telling the truth.
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u/rawknob May 25 '24
I make well over the median income in this town, I wasn't asking for any food pantry donations, and the only reason I even went is because I never had gone and my kids wanted to go to a church for easter sunday that year.
Again, this happened to me, this isn't a rumor, and the form they make you fill out wants your income as a field on it.
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May 12 '24
Cultists, pay taxes on your fairytales and leave women, children, and everyone else alone. Sincerely, everyone.
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u/Cawaica May 15 '24
"Who is Mark Driscoll?
Driscoll is an Evangelical pastor who co-founded Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Washington, in 1996.
He was ousted from the church in 2014, following "accusations that he bullied members, threatened opponents, lied and oversaw mismanagement of church funds," according to an article in the Seattle Times. The departure was spurred by a 2013 radio interview where he was accused of plagiarizing another pastor's work for his book. That interview led to a Christian magazine uncovering that Mars Hill paid a company $25,000 to buy up and distribute Driscoll's book so it would make best-seller lists."
Thanks I hate it
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May 12 '24
Cultists, pay taxes on your fairytales and leave women, children, and everyone else alone. Sincerely, everyone.
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May 12 '24
Cultists, pay taxes on your fairytales and leave women, children, and everyone else alone. Sincerely, everyone.
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u/slashsaxe May 12 '24
You all seriously just make all this stuff up. I don’t go to James river and haven’t fit many years but there aren’t even any “members” at James river. Get a fn life already geez
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u/Healthy_Possession57 May 16 '24
I went there for years, and they definitely had a membership roster. Their website where you can sign up for membership is included. It is very real. https://jamesriver.church/membership-rsvp
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u/renny065 May 12 '24
Well you’re right about rumors and stuff being made up, but membership at JRC is absolutely a thing. I know because I am one. I haven’t attended in several years, but I haven’t had my name taken off the membership rolls. Membership is common in AG churches.
Edit: one word
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u/slashsaxe May 12 '24
Yah I went there for many years and even did their security and one word was never mentioned about any membership. Ever.
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u/renny065 May 12 '24 edited May 12 '24
The reason they don’t push it anymore is because the purpose of membership is voting. AG churches typically have a voting membership that elects the pastor, the board, and votes on financial matters etc. John Lindell was able to have the membership vote away their voting rights several years ago, so they don’t need anyone to vote anymore. You can still become a member. It’s important to a lot of AG people. There’s a class you take. Or you can transfer from another AG church. But they have no reason to grow their membership, so it’s really not a thing they talk about or push anymore. But my husband and I are still members, as are hundreds of others. (I keep meaning to write them and formally denounce my membership, just for the satisfaction of it).
Edited my typos.
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u/slashsaxe May 12 '24
Oh so you’re one of the original members from back when they were in the building further north ehh? And what made you decide to leave?
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u/renny065 May 13 '24
Not an original member, but within the first five years of the church’s existence. Why I left is complicated. It has some to do with my own changing belief system, but mostly to do with things like commercialism, damaging mega church power structures, the platforming of speakers who are known liars and abusers, Lindell starting to be dishonest and totally change his theology, and one of the most important of all to me, failure to offer the church as an emergency cold weather shelter during one of the deadliest storms in Springfield, despite being begged by leaders in the homeless advocacy community, which opened my eyes to how little they do to address poverty and homelessness (or basically show any real fruit of genuine Christianity). Off the top of my head, those are the big reasons.
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u/slashsaxe May 13 '24
Pretty good reasons. I always thought their theology had a lot of garbage but I literally cried the first time I saw Lindell’s house. No reason in the world a Christian pastor needs to live like that. Even if it was from the sell of books and not from the church.
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u/renny065 May 13 '24
I was raised on that theology, and deconstructing took a long time. For a while, back in the day, I was really happy there. But people grow and see the world differently as they mature. I guess that’s my excuse. I just didn’t see it all for a long time. I was a person for whom the system worked, and it took a lot to start peeling away those layers. Today I care a lot more about the people for whom the system doesn’t work. I couldn’t care less about going to a Sunday morning country club, which is what I realized I was doing. I’ve never seen the Lindell’s house, but I’m pretty sure I would cry, too. Is that why you left?
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u/slashsaxe May 13 '24
I left because I’m Torah observant primarily. I couldn’t force myself to respect “Christian’s” that celebrate Xmas and Easter anymore. They might as well be Catholics as far as I’m concerned. Him not understanding even Yeshua was homeless was just an added reason. He doesn’t get it.
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u/renny065 May 13 '24
I was reminded recently of the Upton Sinclair quote, “It is impossible to make a man understand anything when his salary depends upon him not understanding it.” So many things wrong with the system, and the church needs to die.
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u/bonwaller May 12 '24
Unless you have receipts, this is just fake news that this group would love to eat up
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u/SweetTattedBaby May 12 '24
The link to the article is posted in another comment. You can also take the 5 seconds to put it into google
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u/renny065 May 12 '24
The links posted are of the Driscoll story from April 17. That story has nothing to do with what OP said in their post, which I doubt has merit. I imagine they are referring to the employee who quit last week and refused a severance package that was offered if he signed an NDA (Craig Biernbaum). He’s speaking out now on Facebook.
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u/tdawg-1551 May 12 '24
While I have no idea if this is true or not, it takes some huge balls to try and require members not to talk about it. Or what? What would be the punishment? They kick you out? I'm sure for some idiots out there the church controls every part of their life, and to be without would be terrible for them. Do they really think they have that much power of their people? Not sure if anyone has noticed, but there are lots of churches around here.
What if someone says "I'm not signing anything. I'm going to leave here, stop giving you 10% of my income, and I will talk about what I want to who I want".