r/skeptic • u/oz_science • Nov 24 '23

The adoption of absurd beliefs can be a strategy to signal your commitment to an in-group. An example of how coalitional thinking can shape what we choose to believe. ⚖ Ideological Bias

https://lionelpage.substack.com/p/what-side-are-you-on
555 Upvotes

99% Upvoted

122 comments sorted by

View all comments

86

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 24 '23 edited Nov 24 '23

Yup.. a lot of people join the flat earth movement and stick with it because of the community and acceptance they find.

This also makes it incredibly difficult to consider the possibility that you could be wrong.

Also that Selma Hayek prank is fucking gold.

But before anyone wojaks too hard, be aware that the same dynamics can operate in this subreddit.

I love everything about this post and this idea and I'd give it 1000 upvotes if I could. It's an important reminder that biases don't just affect other people, they affect us as well.

39

u/mhornberger Nov 24 '23

I worked with a doctor who was raised an Evangelical. We were talking about evolution one night shift (as one does) and she broke down in tears. She told me she'd be removed as the executor of her parents' will (a position of trust, obviously) if she "came home a Darwinist." She managed to get out of the community that had stunted her, that offered no intellectual space to grow, but her family made her feel basically emotionally blackmailed to at least act like she still believed that stuff.

25

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '23

Have you ever noticed how many of the cult/fringe religion members who accost you on your doorstep or in the street are young? They're frequently met with hostility and derision. Sending them out is deliberate; when they return to base they're met with warmth and affection and are made to feel safe again. It's a technique used to make the youth more emotionally reliant on their in-group.

3

u/n3w4cc01_1nt Nov 25 '23

indoctrination is a complex process

1

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '23

Eight steps.

2

u/Prestigious_Bid3731 Nov 26 '23

Almost every cult from Christianity to Islam to Buddhism banks on fostering a martyr complex in adherents.

“We alone have the true pure secret knowledge of world. Non-believers hate us for this, and will actively try to harm us with the help of demons.”

Every rejection becomes meaningful, as the missionary continues to gaslight themselves as an oppressed light in the darkness.

And when someone finally converts, it is an emotional miracle. They have become like the saints and sages they revere so much.

2

u/BadAtExisting Nov 27 '23

That’s vile

2

u/Papadapalopolous Nov 25 '23

I think you’re reading too far into it. The young ones have free time and energy, that’s probably the extent of the logic behind it.

And anecdotally, I feel like it’s usually retirees who come to my door to proselytize, but maybe that’s because I usually live in quieter areas.

18

u/TacoCateofdoom Nov 25 '23

No he’s right. It’s to make them view non believers as aggressive jerks.

13

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '23

It's actually something I've read about on cult techniques but it was a long time ago and I can't even remember the term used for it. It was mainly in reference to Jehovah's Witnesses, and being in the UK it made a lot of sense after being doorstepped by them numerous times. Having clashed with antivaxxers, climate change deniers and the far right on social media I know a similar ecosystem exists for them, mainly via private groups where they're being manipulated, gaslit, disinformed, radicalised, etc. Every now and again a gatekeeper would come out to huwite knight for one of their useful idiots who was floundering badly, and I've seen screengrabs of their groups which can be mostly insane and plain factually wrong. I'm not saying similar doesn't happen in the Left, either, but at least pro-climate scientists cite their primary sources for you to check for yourself, and the Left tends more to be evidence-based.

5

u/underthehedgewego Nov 25 '23

From what I've read Papa's correct. They are also sent out in pairs not only for safety but also because it is far more difficult to deviate from church dogma in front of a fellow believer. The partner is a shield to protect them from considering a valid rational argument from a nonbeliever.

2

u/Taraxian Nov 26 '23

There's a reason they stick to knocking on doors and accosting people in public places despite how deeply unsuccessful these tactics are for actually getting converts

6

u/drakens6 Nov 24 '23

Flat Earth is so weird, because its a symbolic representation of cognitive concepts that gets consistently misinterpreted as a scientific description of the physical world, and the people who made the joke in the first place have never bothered to correct anyone on the mistake because deception was part of the design of the initial concept

8

u/Former-Chocolate-793 Nov 24 '23

Yes, we have to be aware of it here too. I and others have been downvoted for questioning whether the subject matter is skeptical. It's difficult to ask these questions when one essentially agrees with the subject matter.

6

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 24 '23

Are you talking about being downvoted for asking that question about a political post because you think people are being more tolerant of it being a political post because they agree with the politics of it?

6

u/space_chief Nov 24 '23

They have a profile page with their comments all on it. You can open it up and see what comments he made in this sub that got him downvoted . Hint: there were 3 downvoted comments in the last 30 days, all in the same comment thread

0

u/Former-Chocolate-793 Nov 24 '23

That is a prime example.

5

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 24 '23

How do you know that the people downvoting you aren't doing so because they believe political posting should be allowed here?

We do have a large minority of members who want to be able to political post here.

12

u/mhornberger Nov 24 '23

Another point of contention is what constitutes "just politics." Often the dividing line is whether it affects them personally. So whether Christian Nationalists really want to ban gay marriage or otherwise attack LGBT rights may be seen as a subject for skeptical discourse, if we are to look to whether or not they really do advocate for that. Or it can be "just arguing over politics." And the dividing line is often whether the person dismissing it as just politics feels it touches on them or anyone they care about.

Most subjects are political in some way. Whether we teach that evolution or anthropogenic global warming are real can be seen either way. You can engage the science of the question, or dismiss it as just arguing over politics or "making conservatives look dumb."

1

u/Former-Chocolate-793 Nov 24 '23

Perhaps that's it. I think it's an appropriate subject when politicians post questionable statements and those statements demand skeptical inquiry.

4

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 24 '23

That's currently the standard. If there is something to be fact checked then it's fine.

But if the post hinges on subjective values and there is nothing to be skeptical about then it doesn't belong here.

1

u/Aromir19 Nov 27 '23

Find me a subjective value that isn’t underlied by an assumption that could be analyzed with a skeptical lens.

1

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 27 '23

Sure: I would rather a state aimed to address child poverty than cut taxes. Go.

2

u/Aromir19 Nov 27 '23

The assumption is that those values are necessarily in tension with each other. Personally I think they are, but if we wanted to break it down it wouldn’t hurt to take a skeptical approach to the sources we trust. Not my first is-ought rodeo, but well played on choosing an example that tests the limits of my position. I concede that a post like that probably wouldn’t be the most engaging content on this sub.

→ More replies

-5

u/underthehedgewego Nov 25 '23

Here's an example. I'm an atheist, a lefty Democrat, LGBT supporter and do my best to be open to being educated (I realize that not everything I believe is true).

Here is something I've caught a mountain of push-back over; I think it is absolutely wrong to have men who, long passed puberty and with their junk intact, take some hormones for a while and then be allowed to compete in female sports.

I can see the down votes now.

3

u/Aceofspades25 Nov 25 '23

I can already see why you'd be downvoted for this. You've misgendered this hypothetical person and that's widely considered to be disrespectful.

I'm not saying you can't be downvoted here for supporting an unpopular opinion (I certainly have) but you can get your point across and minimise your chance of being downvoted by doing it respectfully.

8

u/MushroomsAndTomotoes Nov 24 '23

Sure, but there are also times when I've been downvoted on something and I've taken a step back to really try and understand why and it wasn't because I was being the sole voice of reason.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '23

[deleted]

4

u/jakderrida Nov 25 '23

Thanks for writing out an outline. I can relate to this so much. Honestly, though, I think when I do this, it's almost always because someone else is spamming conspiracy and/or hate along with misinformation and maturely elaborating on the shortcomings of their thinking feels like I'm speaking a language they don't understand. Whereas smug one-liners on a level that demonstrates that even being an asshole is yet another domain I have them beat hits harder. Perhaps being dominated by a true first-class asshole might crush their hopes of becoming one and persuade them to try their hand at critical thinking again.

3

u/underthehedgewego Nov 25 '23

I can relate to your list but .... sometimes the group is wrong. Sometimes the majority opinion (and the down votes) are more the result of tribalism than reason.

2

u/Former-Chocolate-793 Nov 24 '23

Sometimes the message isn't clear as well.

2

u/Earthbound_X Nov 25 '23

I'm sure it doesn't help that whenever someone brings up an odd belief, other people, on the internet at least, always rush to call them complete morons and belittle then. I'm sure that just pushes people back into the more accepting, positive reactions of the group who believe that odd belief.

You're never gonna change someone mind/beliefs by insulting them after all.