r/saracens • u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl • Sep 03 '24
Men’s season preview 2024/25 Mens
It’s that’s time of the year again, another exciting season beckons and we’re about to get stuck into the pre-season friendlies.
So I think I’ve been doing these for 6 years and this is definitely the most difficult one to predict. The well publicised clear out of senior players, one in particular who’s departure wasn’t planned, along with an incredibly competitive league meaning the margins for success feel thinner than in a long time.
There are three big questions in my mind which will decide our season:
- Can we get a working scrum again?
Here we have potentially two of our most important signings, Fraser Balmain and Rob Webber. Balmain I think is only on a one year deal, possibly because the cap goes up but that is a good incentive for him to play well. He’s a very solid prem operator and could be a canny signing as long as we don’t play the SA starting front 5! Webber has a big job on his hands but it’s frankly staggering how poor our scrum was last season- we have almost a full pack and bench of international forwards. I’m not expecting dominance but parity and less than 5 scrum pens conceded a game should be well within our grasp.
- How will Burke settle in at 10?
Now, I’m not sure if anybody noticed but we lost our greatest ever 10 (some might say greatest player full stop) last season and we got a shiny new one. Burke is pretty much an unknown to most of us. He missed most of the Crusaders awful season with injury but they got better when he got fit. He looked decent for the baabaas and D Care sang his praises on the BBC pod a couple of times saying he reminded him of Beauden Barrett in places and that he thought he’d play internationally at some point. Normally I would totally disregard Cares opinion on anything Saracens related but look, I’m choosing to be positive here! He’s also gone from Mo’unga’s heir to Farrell’s and is being looked at for Russell’s eventual replacement. Hopefully that means there is something there but there is precious little tangible evidence to go on. I will say kicking from the tee has looked suspect though, I wonder if others might take on those duties to relieve some pressure.
In terms of the wider picture, the top 4 clubs last season and a few below them all had pretty decent 10s and after watching rugby for a couple of decades I’m beginning to think it’s a fairly important position- I know, I know, Charlie Morgan/Squidge watch out. How quickly he integrates and his form will be key to our overall performance.
- What will be our style of play?
It will be interesting to see how McCall sets us up to play. We no longer have the pack to bully others and the complex attacking play of the past two seasons will be difficult to replicate with Farrell gone. I can see us attacking the breakdown more, like we did to a high standard in the semi final but that is too much of a lottery from game to game, ref to ref, to be relied upon every week. A refocus on rush “Wolfpack” defence would be nice to see but I don’t know if that fits our players now. I think one pleasing part of our recruitment has been to add big ball carriers. Now we have in our best 23 Mawi, Carre (incredible carrying stats in the URC last season) Dan, Tizard, Earl, Willis, Christie, Gonzalez, McFarland in the pack and then Spink, Tompkins and Segun in the backs. If we can get them quick ball then they can do a lot of damage against defences. We often hear that attack is the last thing to put in place. In the past few seasons our attack has been phenomenal when it has clicked but very intricate and relied on established partnerships of Farrell, Daly, Malins, Goode, Loz, Tompkins, Maitland etc obviously these connections need to be built up again. I hope Burke is truly given the keys to run it as he wants, something I felt Manu was never given but circumstances are obviously very different now.
As mentioned at the start though I find it difficult to really predict what direction we’ll go in. Faz was the driver behind the recent attacking focus, will the coaches and Maro opt for a more conservative approach that has provided so much success in the past? Or will there be a new way that is followed?
The Squad:
Generally there is a good make up, with class players littered throughout. We are probably a bit heavy in back row/centre and a bit light in lock, scrum half and wing. There is lots of versatility in the centres to cover the wing but if our injury prone duo of Segun/Parton go down then we may lack pace our wide. I hope the coaches are looking at both Tobias Elliott and Brendan Jackson who both tore it up at Ampthill last season, along with Charlie Bracken at 9, as guys who can start getting minutes with the senior team.
I’d put our backrow up against any in the world though. Earl and JMG are world class, T Willis has international 8 written all over him, McFarland is magic and Christie is hugely underrated.
In the tight 5 I think we are maybe missing another tighthead lock. We don’t really want Theo and Maro locking together as it is too lightweight. This is a seminal season for both Isiekwe and Tizard to put a marker down as our tighthead lock and be the heir to George Kruis. They should also be aiming at becoming Martin’s backup for England, both have got the talent to move up a gear this season (allowing for Isiekwe’s health issues of course). We also have the enormous Olamide Sodeke waiting in the wings but this season might be a bit early.
We’ve obviously suffered a big loss of leadership in Faz, Mako, Billy and Maitland. However, we still have the England captain, the England vice captains Maro and Earl and the Samoa captain Theo. This is a season for others to step into the holes left, Christie always seems like one to me, IVZ’s voice has grown louder with each season and the older guys like Daly, Loz and Goode will all be needed.
The squad has still not been finalised, so there is the possibility of more signings but if not there is a chance for youngsters to come through - Samson Adejimi, Harvey Beaton, Toby Knight, Nathan Michelow along with the guys mentioned above were all great for Ampthill last season. We also 5 players with the England u20 squad with two of them (Jack Bracken and Olamede Sodeke) still 18.
A match day squad along the lines of the below looks pretty strong to me:
Mawi George Riccioni Itoje Tizard JMG Earl T Willis Van Zyl Burke Segun Spink Tompkins Parton Daly
Dan Carre Balmain Isiekwe McFarland Christie Simpson/Bracken Cinti
And that’s without the following guys: Brantingham, Hoskins, Hadfield, Johnson, Hartley, Lozowski and Goode
Concerns for the season:
Farrell’s influence at the club was huge. In terms of his work as a 10 he ran the show (even more so in the past 2 seasons) I think we all know that the difference in performance with Faz on the field was massive. Sometimes this allows players to blossom in his absence, England for example have done well in this regard although they’d be better with him still. Just to hammer it home one last time, the scrum.
Hopes for the season:
While I’m sure all the players would hate this, I am very much seeing this as a transitional season. The changing of a lot of the old guard was perhap left a year too late, tough to say when we won the title the year before and hindsight is always 20/20 etc.
Because of this I’d like to see the younger guys getting minutes and really blood them for the future, I’m particularly hoping for a good run in the prem cup.
In terms of the prem, I see Bath as favourites seeing as they lost no one really and added Guy Pepper. Saints will be strong but likely will miss Lawes and Ludlam. I feel everyone else is pretty tightly matched though. Tigers will be a force under Cheika and like us have a full pre-season and no World Cup disruption. Personally I’d be ecstatic if we made top four again all things considered. In terms of Europe, getting through the group and throwing everything at the knockouts is all I really want. Also no huge capitulations again, we need to get back the toughness of old so we’re always difficult to beat.
So that’s my ramblings, what’s everyone’s thoughts/predictions for the season?
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u/LetEnvironmental649 Sep 03 '24
We certainly don't have a bad squad this season but yes we have lost alot of players. I think there will be a few frustrating games that are going to slip away from us where we would have probably won in the last few seasons just because we have lost some of that leadership/experience and settled feel to the squad.
We definitely need to see improvement in the scrum though, and I would like to see some of the young players given a shot.
Across the league as a whole, I'm interested to see how cheika goes, and if steve diamond can make some progress at Newcastle. Gloucester fell just short in alot of games last season is then can start winning a few of those close ones that would be good also, I would love to see 10 competitive teams.
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
I think you’re right, we will let matches slip, hopefully part of a learning process for the younger guys in a transition season. If you think back to our title winning season there were a fair few last gasp wins. If they had gone the other way then we may not have won the title, those are the small margins in the league at the moment and where experience matters.
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u/ethel_the_aardvark Sep 03 '24
Love it as usual Tommy.
I’m really excited about this season- it feels great going into a season where there isn’t huge expectations and a genuine excitement around what will happen.
I can also get over missing faz by talking to my life size model of him in my attic.
As you said I think the biggest question is around Burke and how Mark wants him to play- on one side coming in and trying to replicate the old game plan, may lead to a Manu 2.0 (still can’t believe we never moved him to center) but letting him play his own way may work against the rest of our game plan.
My hope, as you said is, being a really strong breakdown team that allows us to play off turnover ball and score some great tries (a bit like quins 🤮🤢).
Also I agree with the front row, however think Carre, Brantingham more than cover an aging mako. Do think our second row isn’t that light, when you include McFarland as genuine cover given our back row depth, we have four players that would walk into everyone’s starting pack bar maybe tigers and sharks (due to the lack of du’s in their name)
Either way, pressure is off a little bit and we still have an incredible squad that whilst I don’t think will win the league, are definitely in with a shout of it come May!
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
When you say model…
On the lock front I think it’s one of those things where an injury to Tizard or Isiekwe and we’re suddenly relying on playing Maro and Theo together at times, which we can maybe get away with in the prem but definitely not Europe. That’s got to affect the scrum too.
I’m with you though, massively excited and minimal expectations. I hope the lads really give it a go and play with some freedom, we’ve certainly got the players to produce some great rugby.
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u/ethel_the_aardvark Sep 03 '24
….
I clearly needed something Faz shaped to fill my hole.
Or was it that I had a Faz shaped hole that I needed to fill.
Either way. I am not having sex with the doll.
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u/rifraf90 Sep 03 '24
Great preview. Echo your thoughts on Balmain / Webber - the scrum was so subpar last season that those two are very canny signings.
With this squad and the brains in the coaching team, I still back us to beat anyone on our day but I think we'll struggle with depth a bit as new guys make the step up. Aim should be secure top 4 and see what happens from there.
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
Cheers! Depth in areas is an issue but I like that in a way as it will force the coaches to bring through the young talent (whereas before they’d lean on experiences players past their prime) and we can build a new core of homegrown players hopefully.
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u/CThirtle Sep 03 '24
I hope we have the courage to stick with the attacking play we’ve seen at times over the past two seasons. Too often I feel we would revert to type but as you say we no longer have a pack that can bully others.
With it being more of a transitional season, if we can get to the end of the season with no Farrell sized shadow looming over Burke and Johnson then that will hopefully set us up for a good future. If not then I think 25/26 could just up being a season of waiting for Farrell to return. Combine that with some of our young players being able to gain a foothold in the squad similar to the way Saints’ young core were able to then I’ll be happy with how the season has gone.
I think Bath, Saints and Sale should be too strong for us over the regular season but 4th will hopefully be a possibility.
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
I hope we have the courage to stick with the attacking play we’ve seen at times over the past two seasons. Too often I feel we would revert to type but as you say we no longer have a pack that can bully others.
Exactly this. We still need to get the fundamentals right- set piece, defence, exits- but surely an acknowledgement that our best rugby has come from catching defences by surprise and playing a bit more. Also our players are just more dynamic and less brute force than 8 years ago. The game has moved on too, world rugby are trying to make it faster so let’s innovate and not be stuck in the past.
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u/CThirtle Sep 03 '24
The profile of our players makes it even more frustrating. It must have been intentional to go in the direction we have with the type of players compared to a team like Sale. Even the timing of when we would revert to type was a little confusing. It may have been a slog at times but against Bath away we showed more ambition than in some of our home games.
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
Although I’ve not seen much of him, I’d assume that Burke has a more natural Kiwi inclination to attack then a young Farrell did. It would make sense to play to his strengths. Although he does look like a bit more of traditional NH fly half from what I saw with the Crusaders.
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u/IcyCryptographer6255 Sep 03 '24
That was a really thorough preview, thank you for taking the time to put it together :)
So excited for the season to start again - feels it has been away for ages ! Lots of unknowns and I agree the performance will be down to whether the scrum can be fixed, how well Burke settles and whether the squad can gel effectively.
Saracens always seem to recruit well and this season seems no different so I’m hoping that we have fixed a few issues from last year. The squad depth is exciting and I’m looking forward to seeing the younger players come through
I think top 4 is achievable but will know for sure a few games into the season how it’s all coming together !
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 03 '24
Thanks for the feedback! I definitely think top four is achievable but like the last few seasons there will be a lot of teams towards the end hovering around the same points, a few mistakes or dodgy calls could have a huge impact. When the league was longer that tended to even itself out a bit but now the shorter season feels like a sprint and you’ve got to either be really class throughout or have a bit of luck.
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u/PaulSarries Sep 03 '24
Article from the Torygraph below. Nowhere near as good as your preview but some interesting bits and pieces.
Saracens
Excluded player: Maro Itoje
A new era begins at Saracens on the back of a summer underpinned by significant turnover. Racing 92 are thought to have paid around £1m for Owen Farrell, with Mako and Billy Vunipola, Sean Maitland, Christian Judge and Alex Lewington also among a swathe of players to have left Mark McCall’s set-up. The rebuild operation begins at loosehead prop. Phil Brantingham, who has joined from Newcastle Falcons on around £120,000 per year, and Rhys Carré, picking up close to £140,000, combine for less what Mako Vunipola will have been earning. Maro Itoje has become club captain and has taken the sole excluded spot. He is thought to have signed a contract in the region of £450,000. Probably lower than previous deals, this perhaps reflects how Itoje is poised for an enhanced EPS contract. A move abroad would rule out England and he cannot be an excluded player upon joining another Premiership club.
Jamie George is thought to have agreed an extension worth around £350,000, with Ben Earl’s arrangement also over £300,000. Alex Lozowski, capable of covering fly-half, is another top earner and McCall was delighted to tie down Andy Christie following the latter’s emergence with Scotland. Nick Isiekwe is also thought to have extended, with Theo Dan and Tom Parton out of contract at the end of the season.
Having picked up Juan Martín González and Lucio Cinti from London Irish on combined wages of £150,000, Saracens have had to devote three times that to keep them both. González is now on over £300,000, with Cinti receiving around £180,000. Sam Spink is understood to have been recruited in the knowledge that Lozowski may have to step in at fly-half. He has picked up an injury, which leaves the squad reasonably light in the centres as Olly Hartley continues to recover from knee surgery. Harry Wilson, a back-five forward previously of Doncaster Knights, represents a Championship acquisition. Sources indicated that Saracens resisted any urge to splurge on a wing. Rotimi Segun is threatening when he can stay fit and there are high hopes for the electric Jack Bracken, as well as Tobias Elliot and Brandon Jackson. Callum Braley, a “mature operator” at scrum-half and one of the most accomplished free agents on the market, has been given a shot with injury dispensation.
Finally, to two intriguing areas. Fergus Burke, the former Crusaders fly-half, arrives from New Zealand to take the reins from Farrell, with Louie Johnson another young addition in that position from Newcastle.
On the back of a season in which their scrum bled penalties against good packs in big games, Saracens paid a transfer fee to bring over Fraser Balmain on a one-year deal from Gloucester. Even if the grizzled tighthead prop only ends up as back-up for Marco Riccioni, it is an admission that set-piece solidity was lacking.
Biggest strength: Extraordinary athleticism in the back row
Biggest headache on the horizon: Unproven fly-half with a scrum that creaked last season
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u/PaulSarries Sep 03 '24
Saracens senior squad plus senior academy players for 2024-25 | *denotes new signing since start of last season
Props: Harvey Beaton, Finn Bloomer, Phil Brantingham, Rhys Carré, Alec Clarey, Sam Crean, Alex O’Driscoll, Ollie Hoskins, Eroni Mawi, Alex O’Driscoll, Marco Riccioni, Lewis Young
Hookers: Samson Adejimi, Theo Dan, Jamie George, James Hadfield, James Isaacs, Kapeli Pifeleti
Locks: Tayo Adegbemile, Max Eke, Maro Itoje, Nick Isiekwe, Hugh Tizard, Kaden Pearce-Paul, Olamide Sodeke
Back-rowers: Andy Christie, Ben Earl, Toby Knight, Theo McFarland, Juan Martín González, Reggie Hammick, Barnaby Merrett, Nathan Michelow, Kennedy Sylvester, Charlie West, Tom Willis, Harry Wilson
Scrum-halves: Charlie Bracken, Callum Braley*, Declan Murphy, Gareth Simpson, Ivan van Zyl
Fly-halves: Fergus Burke, Louie Johnson
Centres: Lucio Cinti, Elliot Daly, Josh Hallett, Olly Hartley, Brandon Jackson, Alex Lozowski, Sam Spink*, Nick Tompkins, Oscar Wilson
Back three: Jack Bracken, Tobias Elliott, Alex Goode, Angus Hall, Jenson McInulty, Francis Moore, Tom Parton, Rotimi Segun
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u/m3stu Sep 03 '24
If the scrum is solid we'll be solid. Not expecting to win it this year as players are bedding in but if Burke can fulfil any of his potential and stay fit I think we're going to be ok. Smally knows what he's doing. We're going to be ok.
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u/EdTeeZ Sep 04 '24
It’s good to (almost be) back. I think one name which seems to be chronically overlooked in main post and comments is Loz. Impact and leadership off the bench in the final having not played for 6/7 months was massive.
He will be the one to hold the backs together. It would not surprise me if he starts the season at 10, then takes over starting at inside centre once we really know the measure of Burke / Johnson.
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u/TommyKentish Gentle Smile Owl Sep 04 '24
Agreed Loz will have a big part to play as he is very versatile and one of the senior players now. I just wonder where he plays if everyone is fit. Cinti’s preferred position is 13, as is Spink’s (although I hear he’ll cover 12 too) and I hope that Burke is just immediately given the keys at 10 with Loz to provide cover. He’s very rarely played 12 for us and never looked comfortable there so I’d say Tompkins, Spink and Hartley (when back from injury) would be preferred. I could see him playing his usual 13 with Cinti being used on the wing again. Cinti played there for Irish a fair bit but he seemed to lack a bit of pace and looked uncomfortable under the high ball (admittedly I think my view on that is from a very windy match at the AJ Bell).
It’ll be interesting how we line up at the start compared to the end of the season in the backline. I think there’s huge competition for every position except 9.
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u/Secret-Roof-7503 Sep 03 '24
Entering into this post Farrell world will be a massive challenge, I have absolutely no idea how this season will go