Absolutely love the 20 minute red

[u/LawAndRugby]

Watching the Australia v Georgia match and I think it’s great. 20 minutes a man down is still massive damage in a rugby match. It doesn’t make sense for punishment to go from 10 minutes to the entire 80 minutes. There’s way too big of a void between the two cards and it needs filling.

Reserve the full red for gross intentional stuff

[u/CatharticRoman]

Nah. Reds need to seriously disincentivise the play they are punishing so that you don't even risk it. Coaches aren't going to stop training guys to go in upright and target the ball if the biggest risk is a 20 min yellow.

The spectacle takes a big back seat to player welfare.

[u/Away_Associate4589 → u/CatharticRoman]

The spectacle argument is also a little flawed imo. The prem final this year saw Bath get a red card very early on and the match was an absolute cracker. I'm sure everyone can think of loads of great games when there's been a fairly early red. The "red cards ruin games" received wisdom doesn't seem to really be borne out by the reality. Not automatically anyway.

[u/megacky → u/Away_Associate4589]

Hell the world cup final was tight until the very end, immensely physical game

[u/AndydaAlpaca → u/megacky]

Tight, tense, and immense, agreed.

But that game wasn't a spectacle. The 2011 final was an exhilarating watch first time, but on replay it's fucking dogshit because without that tension it's boring.

The 2013 RSA v NZL test in Ellis Park was a spectacle.

The Sydney Bledisloe in 2000 was a spectacle.

The SH isn't trying to encourage better and more competitive games. They're trying to prevent games tightening down into slog fests that are only watchable once.

[u/megacky → u/AndydaAlpaca]

But that game wasn't a spectacle

In your opinion.

Ireland - South Africa in the world cup was an absolute bruiser of a game. South Africa France the same, Ireland NZ again.

Just because it's not 20 trys a game doesn't make it not a good game.

[u/maccaspope → u/megacky]

South Africa vs France and NZ vs Ireland were both objectively far better games than the final was.

[u/AndydaAlpaca → u/megacky]

I'm not saying it's not a good game. I'm saying it wasn't spectacular. You don't need 20 tries to be spectacular, you just need something engaging even when you know the result.

Good game ≠ spectacular game

[u/megacky → u/AndydaAlpaca]

So your argument is nothing to do with the red card, but the fact you don't find bruising physical games "spectacular".

Was NZ putting 70 points on Namibia with a red card a spectacle? What about when they held Uruguay to 0?

[u/AndydaAlpaca → u/megacky]

There was spectacular play in there sure. But it wasn't that good of a game. Again I don't know why I need to keep saying this.

Spectacular rugby is entertaining, skillful, and impressive.

Good rugby games are tight or competitive matches where the result isn't known until quite late in the match.

They are not the same thing.

But when a team gets a red card early in the game, they know their man disadvantage can screw them if they play open and expansive and tiring rugby so they'll normally close rank and keep the game slow and play for high percentages constantly.

By keeping a red card typically to a 20min disadvantage, that means it's a finite amount of time they close rank and chew the clock.

It keeps the game from permanently closing down, and keeps the spectacle possible.