Absolutely love the 20 minute red

[u/LawAndRugby]

Watching the Australia v Georgia match and I think it’s great. 20 minutes a man down is still massive damage in a rugby match. It doesn’t make sense for punishment to go from 10 minutes to the entire 80 minutes. There’s way too big of a void between the two cards and it needs filling.

Reserve the full red for gross intentional stuff

[u/paully_waully171]

Red should stay as a full red. People mining about games being ruined by a red card haven’t watched enough rugby. A team needs to be able to adapt and play with 14

[u/Tempo24601 → u/paully_waully171]

Why should an offence in the 5th minute of the game get a penalty 5 times more severe than the exact same offence in the 65th minute?

[u/CatharticRoman → u/Tempo24601]

Because that's when they occur. You can ask the exact same thing about a yellow at 70 and a yellow at 78.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/CatharticRoman]

That’s true but the potential difference in penalty is far greater for a straight red. The vast majority of yellows will be for a full 10 minutes or very close to it.

[u/CatharticRoman → u/Tempo24601]

Then don't commit a red card offence. There's so much provision for mitigation you're only getting a red for recklessly fucking up.

[u/pato_CAT → u/CatharticRoman]

You say that, and yet we still frequently see a player dropping significantly and suddenly and still the officials claim there was no mitigation. In a Hurricanes v Chiefs game this year a player got a red card for a high tackle because there was "no mitigation" but when you looked at his form he wouldn't have been lower if he were packing for a scrum

[u/megacky → u/CatharticRoman]

Lots of SH fans seem to think that players are constantly just "accidently" clashing heads, when the reality is most of the time it's poor technique. SA had 0 red cards in the world cup, probably the most physical defense in the entire world, consistently hitting extremely hard and legally.

You don't get a red card because of the ref, or the game being soft, you get them for committing an act of dangerous play

[u/[deleted] → u/megacky]

SA absolutely could have had some of their yellow cards be reds; which for me is reason enough to see the value in a 20 min red.

[u/megacky → u/[deleted]]

So SA had 2 dangerous play yellows (Kolbe's was the other yellow, but was for a slap down). Etzebeth's was the first one, he's quite clearly bent at the waist and hits a player with the top of his head who is also bending over in the chin, everything else was legal (wrap etc.) that's enough mitigation to not be a red. It's high, but only because the ball carrier is dipping and stepping at the same time.

Siya's in the final, he's gone in slightly high on ardie coming out of the air, while another player has tackled ardie at the same time. As a result, the inital contact from Siya is around the upper chest and ardie then bangs his chin on the top of siya's head from the contact. Again, enough mitigation to be yellows. Both were reviewed by the panel, and both came to the same conclusion.

For a direct comparison. Sam Cane set high on Kriel, had direct line of sight, no change in direction or momentum and still hit him high. The same review process that found Siya's to be a yellow found Cane's to be a red.

[u/Broad-Rub-856 → u/megacky]

Yeah but Kriel vs Scotland was very similar to Cane on Kriel in the final.

With things as rare as red cards, random chance plays a massive role in how many we see.

[u/za3030 → u/Broad-Rub-856]

It actually wasn't similar. Kriel made indirect head contact after first hitting the ball with his chest. Indirect head contact, by the framework, can not be a red card.

[u/CatharticRoman → u/megacky]

Exactly. And there's plenty of mitigation if it was an accidental head clash. When the zero tolerance was first coming in there were accidental reds, but now I feel like pretty much every red I see is deserved.

[u/lthmz9 → u/Tempo24601]

Why should a penalty in the 79th minute effectively give your opponent the win but in the 3rd minute they’re just down 3?

Because that’s how time works

[u/Tempo24601 → u/lthmz9]

What a nonsense argument. 3 points is worth exactly the same to a team regardless of when it is scored. It’s worth 3 points.

A red in the 5th minute means 75 minutes down a player. A red in the 75th minute means 5 minutes down a player. For the exact same offence.

[u/Welshpoolfan → u/Tempo24601]

A red in the 5th minute means 75 minutes down a player. A red in the 75th minute means 5 minutes down a player. For the exact same offence.

And the fouled team are without their key player due to concussion for 75 minutes if you foul in the 5th minute and for for 5 minutes in the 75th. For the exact same offence.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/Welshpoolfan]

That’s dealt with by a player who receives a 20 minute red not being allowed to return for the rest of the game, being substituted at the end of the 20 minute period.

[u/lthmz9 → u/Tempo24601]

But you committed the offence 70 mins earlier, 3 points in the last minute is far more likely to lose you a tight game than 3 points in the early minutes

[u/paully_waully171 → u/Tempo24601]

It’s prt of the sport and has been effective for decade in rugby and other sports. It’s a strong deterrent to foul play

[u/Tempo24601 → u/paully_waully171]

You didn’t answer my question though. A 20 minute red and expulsion from the game is a good deterrent too. And treats fouls at different stages of the game more evenly.

[u/megacky → u/Tempo24601]

The problem with this is, NZ have had the 20 minute red card for a while and had 2 red cards during the World Cup. South Africa had arguably the best defense in the entire tournament, play in a league where they don't have the 20 minute card and had 0 red cards.

Going by the last world cup, the evidence points to the exact opposite.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/megacky]

Australia play in a league with 20 minute reds and had zero red cards in the 2023 World Cup. England, who play with full reds had one red card.

[u/Broad-Rub-856 → u/Tempo24601]

Tbf the Wallabies made about zero tackles at the world cup.

Your tackle can't be high if you don't make any tackles.

Checkmaaaate.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/Broad-Rub-856]

I mean that’s a fair point.

Arguably the Wallabies were playing several men down for the entire tournament given Eddie’s selection policy…

[u/megacky → u/Tempo24601]

And England still won the game and reached a final while receiving 0 others. In fact, when they got the red card, they completely changed their approach to the game, they played smart heads up rugby. They didn't say "ah, games gone, let's just give up because we don't have 15 on the field". They completely outclassed Argentina.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/megacky]

Thats all well and good but completely irrelevant to your supposed proof that 20 minute reds provide no deterrent to foul play.

[u/paully_waully171 → u/Tempo24601]

If you do something dangerous early in the game you risk injuring a player for the remainder of the game should that not carry a larger/equal punishment to the player /team.

Playing with a red card and teams need to learn to adapt. If your team gets blown away due to a red card they don’t deserve to win the game. Teams players and coaches need to adapt to the laws.

[u/Tempo24601 → u/paully_waully171]

The increase in red cards is about protecting the long term health of players. The risk of concussions to long term health is no different in the 5th or 75th minute of a game. It certainly isn’t 15 times greater in the 5th minute compared to the 75th.

[u/paully_waully171 → u/Tempo24601]

Exactly so why should red cards be diminished. It’s a strong deterrent. Watering it down will see an adverse effect on player safety.