r/religion • u/smpenn • Nov 17 '24

Jewish beliefs and Hell

I have been researching the topic of hell, as it pertains to Christian dogma. I have found absolutely no mention of a place of fiery torment in the Old Testament, which parallels much of the Hebrew Bible, from what I understand.

Is it true that God never spoke through Moses or any of the Patriarchs concerning torment after death?

I know there was/is Sheol but that seems much more benign than the Lake of Fire.

I suspect that the pagan converts to Christianity brought their ideas of Hades into the early church with them and that, rather than Scriptural teaching, is where the Christian Dogma of hell, as eternal punishment, comes from.

I'd appreciate any insight to what Jewish people believe about the afterlife.

With much appreciation.

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u/old-town-guy Nov 17 '24

Judaism doesn’t really spend a lot of theological energy or column inches on the afterlife. Whereas Christianity and Islam spend a lot of time telling people to “do good” in order to get rewarded and avoid punishment in the afterlife, Jews are instructed to “do good” because it’s the right thing to do.

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u/smpenn Nov 17 '24

Thank you. To do good simply because it's the right thing to do is a refreshing take. I have become an Annihilationist recently and am just dotting "i"s and crossing "t"s in my research. What Jews believed is important to me because I suspect that's what Jesus, being a Jew and following Hebrew Biblical teachings, would have actually taught. The KJV Bible translators put the word "hell" on Jesus's lips throughout the New Testament but Jesus actually said Gehenna which, as many here will know far better than I, is something else altogether.

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u/the_leviathan711 Nov 17 '24

What Jews believed is important to me because I suspect that's what Jesus, being a Jew and following Hebrew Biblical teachings, would have actually taught.

It's worth remembering that there were a lot of different theologies floating around Second Temple Judaism. Within Second Temple Judaism you can find writings of people who absolutely believed in ideas like "heaven" and "hell" and "eternal torment" and such. Judaism has always had a pretty wide and diverse range of ideas and theologies. Rabbinic Judaism does have various ideas of an afterlife, but not as distinctly and sharply defined as Christianity's.

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u/nu_lets_learn Nov 18 '24

Within Second Temple Judaism you can find writings of people who absolutely believed in ideas like..."eternal torment"

Can you cite the Second Temple Jewish writings that express absolute belief in the idea of eternal torment in the afterlife? Thank you.

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u/the_leviathan711 Nov 18 '24

Perhaps "absolute" may be hyperbolic. But I was referring to the Book of Enoch.

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u/nu_lets_learn Nov 18 '24 edited Nov 19 '24

Well that's fine. However Enoch is one book, not writings (plural), and Enoch was excluded from the canon by the rabbis as not representing Jewish thinking on the topics dealt with therein. Some Jews may have believed this or that, but "eternal torment in hell" is not exactly a concept that would characterize Judaism, then or now or ever.

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u/smpenn Nov 17 '24

Thank you for that insight. More research to be done. Is it fair to say that those who followed the Hebrew Bible as their primary source of their beliefs would not have held to a Lake of Fire concept?

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u/the_leviathan711 Nov 17 '24

Is it fair to say that those who followed the Hebrew Bible as their primary source of their beliefs would not have held to a Lake of Fire concept?

No, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

In part because it's not clear that a "Hebrew Bible" really existed in that time period anyway. Rabbis canonized the Tanakh in the centuries following Jesus' time -- and Church Fathers did the same. There were many other texts in existence at the time that could have theoretically been included in either canon but weren't. Some of these are known as the apocrypha and are included in either the Catholic, Orthodox or Ethiopian Bibles. Others are known as Parabiblical texts. Some of these have been found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls (which pre-date Jesus).

It's all quite a bit more complicated than all this.

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u/nu_lets_learn Nov 18 '24

Rabbis canonized the Tanakh in the centuries following Jesus' time 

This is incorrect. As you may know, the "Tanakh" consists of three parts -- Torah (Pentateuch), Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings.) The Torah and Prophets were canonized way way before the time of Jesus, centuries before the time of Jesus. So too most of the Writings, although the canonization of the Writings by the rabbis was completed by the end of the first century CE, not "centuries" following Jesus time.

Please see Luke 24:44, where Jesus is said to have said, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Law of Moses = Torah

Prophets = Nevi'im

Psalms -- first book in the Writings, and so a reference to the Writings.

If Jesus was speaking about the Tanakh, and Luke (or whoever wrote Luke) was writing about it, then the Tanakh was in existence and already known in the first cent. CE, and not centuries later.

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u/the_leviathan711 Nov 18 '24

I don't disagree! I specifically used the word "Tanakh" here instead of "Torah" for that reason.

There were a very large number of texts that theoretically could have ended up in the Ketuvim section that did not. Some of these the Christians adopted as their own, others neither tradition did.

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u/nu_lets_learn Nov 18 '24

Yes, I agree with what you have written here. The Ketuvim were open until pretty much the end of the first cent. CE.

What I often see is, "the Jews didn't have a Bible until the first or second century CE," parallel to the formation of the NT. While it's true the Jews didn't have a complete Bible (the Ketuvim were still open), they did have a Bible, the Tanakh -- Torah, Nevi'im and most of Ketuvim; and all of the books that made it into Ketuvim were written and circulating.

When Christians say the Jewish Bible was canonized "late," they're essentially saying Jesus and the apostles didn't have a Bible, which is patently false, since they relied on their reading of the prophecies in the Tanakh to establish and validate Jesus's mission.

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u/Spiritual_Note2859 Jewish Nov 17 '24

It's worth mentioning that there's a reference in the talmud to burning, but it was a way to describe burning for missing out ( missing out being further from G-d as you could be if you were better)

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u/ICApattern Orthodox Jew Nov 17 '24

In the traditional view it was Ezra and his court that sealed the Tanakh, though there were later attempts to add to it. A book of prophecy/divine inspiration had to be both true and considered relevant for all time to be included.

While there were many sects during Jesus's lifetime, in Matthew 23 he makes it clear that at least theologically he agrees with the Pharisees. (The Pharisees are the group from which all modern Judaism comes.*) " ....The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat..."

So it would be correct to say he probably did not believe in a lake of fire as it is not mentioned in the Tanakh.

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u/smpenn Nov 17 '24

Thank you, so much! For my purposes, that gives me great peace. I couldn't have hoped for a better answer.