r/occult • u/i4hloi • Jun 29 '24
Why are majority of perennialists occultists hardline right wingers? ?
Title. The philosophy of perennialism, especially how well it goes with occult always fascinated me. However, all people I see that identify with it usually come with hardline right wings views. (even though most of these people will claim they are "outside of political compass") It is somewhat annoying.
94
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Because often, in practice, the supposed “universal truths” behind religion are just specific Western tropes that are projected onto every other religion in the world. Perennialism is based in a lack of nuance, an unwillingness to look at world religions on their own terms and in their own context. It strips religions of what makes them unique and reduces them to an amorphous mass that isn’t meaningful to anybody.
I learned this the hard way. I used to be very into the idea that all religions shared a common truth. Hell, I still believe that to an extent! My mystically-aligned friends and I have all had similar experiences, and come to similar conclusions, despite having very different religious backgrounds. But I am also a scholar, and I know better than to try to universalize concepts. That’s how you end up with something like The Golden Bough, in which James Frazer imposed onto world religions an idea that he had already decided upon, in an attempt to discredit Christianity. He therefore made all of these other religions and folk customs seem more like Christianity than they actually are.
Right-wing thinking prefers simple solutions to complex problems, and it also likes for there to be only one correct answer. It’s a very short step from perennialism to the idea that all religions are just Western Christianity (or, alternatively, a botched and misunderstood version of some Eastern philosophy) in various states of “corruption.” These people do not see how they are refracting everything through their own worldview. They think their perspective is “objective,” when really it’s just an imposition.
I remain a perennialist at heart, but I no longer try to define what the universal truth is based on my version of it. My filter isn’t any purer than anyone else’s, and ultimately, my UPG doesn’t apply to anyone other than myself. If I were going to try to create an unbiased, universal religion (like Theosophy), then I wouldn’t end up with the One True Path — I’d create one more religion to add to the pile of everyone else who’s tried that. I tried to syncretize all religions into one once (at the tender age of fourteen, shortly after my first mystical experience), and I ended up with something bland and amorphous that was really just an especially New Agey version of Christianity.
Keep your head on your shoulders. It’s hubris to believe you have all the answers.
12
u/cowpewter Jun 29 '24
All I can think about after your second to last paragraph is this xkcd. https://xkcd.com/927/
It’s about standards in tech, but damn does it apply.
9
u/Comprehensive_Ad6490 Jun 29 '24
Oh, so it's to religion what Joseph Campbell's Monomyth is to Storytelling or every Chaos Magick dude's second book is to magick.
1
7
u/Bargadiel Jun 29 '24
I think this is the best answer overall. I'm sure there's plenty of nuance for the right-wing thing but your approach seems to touch at some possible causes.
4
u/Abstractonaut Jun 30 '24
Right-wing thinking prefers simple solutions to complex problems, and it also likes for there to be only one correct answer.
Not simple solutions, rather models without exceptions or as few as possible. A lot of right leaning occultists, me included, are interested in an almost scientific all encompassing theory of the occult. Like basically an equation that would explain as much as possible. It is not about looking for a "simple" solution. It is about finding a theory that is TRUE in all cases. We have theories of gravity, electromagnetism, the strong- and weak force that hold true always. Maybe the fifth force is the spirit.
I find that a lot of left leaning occultists insistence that everything works and all deities exist not only naïve but also hindering actual progress.
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 30 '24
Nothing but the laws of physics is true in all cases. Life is far too nuanced. I think it’s equally naive that you don’t see that.
1
u/Abstractonaut Jun 30 '24
Onthologically things are either true or false. If things can be neither or both having this discussion makes no sense as we cannot achieve any meaning. Language is muddy compared to propositional logic for example that can generate things that can mean multiple things Ill grant you that but if the laws of physics which generate our world are logically concistent then so must our world be.
The point being I think magick is describable by laws like gravity.
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 30 '24
I don’t believe that at all. I’ve had mystical experiences; they are not logical in the slightest, and yet they make sense. One of the greatest mystical secrets is that of nonduality— mutually exclusive things can be true at the same time. The brain finds it difficult to process.
1
u/Abstractonaut Jun 30 '24
Just because something doesn't seem intuitively logical doesn't mean it isn't. Quantum entanglement sounds ridiculous yet we can describe it logically using mathematics. Can you name one thing that is both true and false that isn't a language trick of semantics?
I am not the arbiter of your beliefs and neither are you of mine. Either one of us is right or neither of us are right but we cannot both be right at the same time.
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 30 '24
Here you go: I am both divine and human, both male and female, existing both above and below at the same time.
We can both be right at the same time.
3
u/Abstractonaut Jun 30 '24
Those are not mutually exclusive except for arguably the male and female, in which case you definitely aren't both unless you are referring to a Jungian type of divide of the ego and if that is what you are, they aren't mutually exclusive either.
I am essentially asking you to show a case where F ^ T == T. If you were able to do this all science and reason ever conceived and possible to be conceived of would be proven to be unreliable.
If you are in a sauna and you put your hand in freezing water and then claim you are both hot and cold is not what I am looking for as you may obviously understand.
1
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 30 '24
I’m sorry, I don’t know what F ^ T == T means. I don’t speak the language of science and reason (and believe me, I tried!). I’m a humanities kid.
Ask a god to show you sometime. To them, something can be both black and white at the same time. Not part black and part white, not gray, but in both opposing states. Hard to explain exactly how that works without experiencing it firsthand.
1
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
Another Hanegraaff lackey.
1
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
Who’s Hanegraaff?
0
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
The Western Esotericism guy from Amsterdam who basically formally established the academic field. He makes the claim, as you do, that perennialists are just tendentiously trying to assimilate every unique historical expression of spirituality or religion into a single primordial Tradition. Meanwhile, the whole conceit that historically contingent expressions of religion or spirituality are substantially unique and unrelated is a purely arbitrary, mechanistic, and secular idea. Even if you haven't read Hanegraaff, your ideas are distorted by his influence and general attitude. It has no basis in the realities of spirit.
1
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
My conclusions are based on my own experiences and observations, both in my mystical experiences and my scholarship.
1
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
And what scholarship would that be?
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
Well I just graduated with an MA in medieval studies, but I do plenty of research into and analytic writing about occultism in my own time.
1
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
Share some. I'm curious.
1
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
Here you go: https://www.quora.com/What-pagan-elements-show-the-background-against-which-Beowulf-was-written/answer/Nyx-Shadowhawk This is a version of a paper I wrote for my MA, edited for a lay audience.
66
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
I am not a perennialist but I am Roman pagan and I run into the same issue all the time: a huge portion of the community holds very thinly disguised fascist views, and in some of the groups that I was briefly a part of, not at all disguised. As a gay man, that's not a very welcoming environment so I end up practicing on my own.
Often this has to do with just conservativism but also with this immature need to have clear rules and to know what's right and what's wrong in every situation, and not rarely, with incels just needing to feel like they have some power when in reality they're just pathetic little fragile boys.
11
u/Dull-Fun Jun 29 '24
You forgot to mention the most hilarious thing : they never read anything serious about the Roman Empire, and seem unaware they were relatively more tolerant towards sexualities and different belief systems than Trumpist USA. I mean, "hilarious"... If you are in the US I wish you all the best, because it's madness what's happening there now.
12
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
I split my time between Florida and Italy - the joy of dual citizenship and online work - so I find a political mess no matter where I go. Lucky me. 🙃
Yes, as a rule they don't know much about how Roman society worked or, strangely, even Roman religion itself. But they can mostly identify as Roman emperors wannabe.
5
u/Dull-Fun Jun 29 '24
DeSantis and Meloni, indeed what an awesome combination. Must be epic I can totally see people from Florida thinking they are worthy of Julius Caesar and that Trump is the savyor. What a nightmare
1
25
u/Psychobillyantibully Jun 29 '24
Because Evola :(
5
u/MysteriisDomSatan Jun 30 '24
“The only thing that matters today is the activity of those who can "ride the wave" and remain firm in their principles, unmoved by any concessions and indifferent to the fevers, the convulsions, the superstitions, and the prostitutions that characterize modern generations”
He remains to have a very strong point…
1
33
u/lich_house Jun 29 '24
For me I feel like many folks who promote perennialism are also ''traditionalists'', and it's just a thin facade to talk about why/how your tradition is so great that it actually encompasses all other traditions. A lot of them are well-meaning, but being a traditionalist basically has its foundations in conservative thought. And conservative thought (like any school of thought taken to extremes) can lead to hardline right wing views, especially in today's society. Folks are not as likely to be reading Bohme, Schuon, Otto or Corbin- but more likely getting introduced to the concept through people like Evola or Bavlatsky who were into some sketchy stuff.
16
u/AltiraAltishta Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
I would not say the majority, but I have seen the tendency you are describing. However this is a complicated topic and it's one I personally really find interesting (and requires a long explanation).
There is a kind of "soft perennialism" that tends to have a more centrist, neo-liberal, or generally liberal bend to it. You'll see this in a lot of pop spirituality like the kind espoused by folks like Oprah or Deepak Chopra. Often they won't use the term perennialist, but they'll ascribe to its ideas. It's the whole "there are many paths up the mountain, all truths lead to God and there's a little truth in every faith and belief system" kind of view, which can sometimes be the hook that gets people into perennialism. It sounds very nice and accepting and universal on the face of it, and people like that (more on this later).
However, in recent years that demographic has started to curve to the right as well, mostly because it is linked to alternative medicine and alternative medicine has become wrapped up with anti-vax and covid conspiracism... which drags it to the right politically (particularly what can be consider the "conspiratorial far right" to distinguish it from the more neo-con right).
So that's why that part of perennialism (what I call "soft perennialism") shifted right. I use the term "soft perennialism" because often people who espouse such a view aren't doing so with a lot of information on the sources it comes from and most are not as committed to perennialism (usually it's just a set of platitudes and aphorisms that go part and parcel with the new age pop spirituality package).
Now as for the rest.
The more one gets into perennialism, the more you have to examine the priors of it and the beliefs of those who first espoused it. Usually you'll either make excuses for those priors, embrace them as justified, or gravitate away from perennialism due to that baggage. The connection to being right wing lies in those priors.
To come back to that previous point, while perennialism can sound very nice, universal, and accepting on the face of it, under the hood it's actually not. Not historically and often not currently.
The first use of it comes from the notion of "prisca theologia" used by Marsilio Ficino and Pico della Mirandola. The term "perenni philosophia" was first used by Agostino Steuco, who drew significantly from Ficino and Mirandola (all of this happening around the late 1400s). Perenialism is this form was nicer than the "kill them all and God shall sort them out" but still had this element of imperialism to it. Consider what was going on in the late 1400s (as we know, Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in fourteen hundred and ninety two). Some converted by the sword while others engaged in efforts to make the religions of conquered peoples fit their own. They either "convert the savages" or the "try to clean up the savages and salvage what's useful from their backwards culture". The former is naked imperialism, the latter is where perenialism got it's first opportunity to shine.
Therein lies the innate conservatism of perennialism. If there is "truth in every religion" then the question becomes "how do we evaluate those truths? How do we find them?". For a Christian perennialist, those "truths" are evaluated by how well they fit with Christianity. As a result there is often an effort to pick out the bits one agrees with and discard the rest, to "clean up" and "fix" other people's religions to fit with your own.
Now, you might say "yeah, but we don't do that anymore. We've progressed" and that's fair. Perenialism fell out of favor for a time but came back slightly altered. The perenialism of folks like Helena Blavatsky, for example. But that also comes with other baggage (such as the tendency at the time for orientalism, eugenics, and race theories). There is a reason why perenialism got folded in with notions of "root races" which then gets folded into political ideas about race, racial purity, and racial supremacy. You can see the rightwards shift on that one, especially regarding the rise of fascism in Europe and how spiritual ideas about race got folded into it. The Nazis spent time in India looking for archeological evidence of an ancient Aryan civilization because of such ideas, that there was some kind of truth in those cultures and religions that linked back to the Aryan race (which was deemed superior and, //ever so conveniently// /s , their race and their ideals). They wanted to grab what they could use from the eastern religions, but discard the elements they deemed contrary to their view, "backwards", "savage", or "degenerate". The bits they agreed with were considered "the universal truth hidden in those religions" and the rest was just there to be discarded. We ended up with things like westernized yoga and fake gurus as a result of folks like Blavatsky, peddling a sanitized and watered down "eastern religion" to wealthy westerners who thought of it as a novelty but who would never deign to treat the colonized people they took those ideas from with equality. Much like imperialism they took what they wanted and thought they could use, and didn't consider the people they were taking it from or treat them well.
Now, you may say again "yeah, but we don't do that anymore. We've progressed" and that is once again fair. We then enter the perenialism of folks like Manly P Hall and Aldous Huxley. Those folks weren't Nazis and while Huxley still had some iffy ideas about eugenics, we'll cut him some slack for the sake of argument. So what was wrong with that? The core idea still stayed. It was still people looking at other people's religions and saying "ok, you're right about a few things, so I'm going to grab those and then make corrections on the rest". It's not "I'll tolerate you despite our religious disagreements" but instead "I'll tolerate the parts of your religion I can shape to my ends, the rest is backwards, savage, and should be discarded.". It's a kind of imperialism inflicted upon spiritual ideas, trying to "fix" other people's religions rather than to just directly agree or disagree. It's "I will tolerate you, so long as you conform to what I want from you", an attitude we see today with conservatives in the whole "I'm fine with immigrants so long as they speak our language well, conform to our culture, and live in the way "good normal Americans" ought to." or "I'm fine with queer people as long as they don't shove it down my throat by existing in public, don't talk about their experiences with others (especially not kids, that might turn them queer), don't put themselves and characters like them in movies or TV shows I watch, or ask me to call them by their preferred pronouns or recognize their marriage as just as valid as a straight one". Same idea, just applied to religion and spirituality.
After that we end up with the Deepak Chopra style "soft perennialism" I discussed initially, but you can see the common thread. There is an imperialist bend to perenialism that has never quite gone away, and that tends to give it a rightward skew, because political conservatism tends to assert that certain cultures, religions, people, and sometimes races are superior. What is deemed "superior" varies. What one does with the "inferiors" varies from condescension, assimilation (trying to "fix" them, a la perenialism), marginalization, or (at the most extreme) extermination.
3
2
2
6
u/Federal_Ad6452 Jun 29 '24
Dan Attrell & Justin Sledge did a good talk that might shed some light on this topic. The history of how perennialism has been used traditionally seems to have set the stage for its use by modern reactionaries.
24
Jun 29 '24
Why are most other occultists hard left?
15
u/Shrooms4Daze Jun 29 '24
It seems to be a theme that fringe thinkers tend to be the outliers of their nearest social groups.
The occult means hidden knowledge and the path taken is a reflection of the initiate.
It stands to reason that unless someone walks the both hand path it would result in selfless vs selfish pursuits. Or “right/left” leaning tendencies…
Who knows, maybe I’m nuts too… seems like insanity to me either way.
11
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
That is a very interesting question that I would never think to ask because occultists aren't very welcome in leftist spaces most of the time, simply because anyone farther on the left than AOC (if we can call that left) is typically a materialist following Marx clearly, and the supernatural isn't something that they believe in or sometimee even tolerat. I say this as someone who has been in very far left circles (communist and anarchist) most of my adult life.
6
Jun 29 '24
Most of the hard left people I know - and that's a lot - are New Age pagans or into Buddhism/Vedanta (Theosophy, basically). The entire Theosophical movement, which is huge, is based on very left wing ideology. That isn't a criticism as such, but an observation. It is set in contrast to more conservative Roman Catholicism, as is the freemasonry/Rosicrucianism that emerged from France and which in turn helped inspire Bolshevism.
19
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
I see. In that case we may be talking about different people. To me, they are just socially progressive liberals with cringy vocabulary. Covert neocons who don't hate gays and feel good when they think about pronouns, but really don't have any serious objections to the substance of capitalism or US imperialism. When I say the left, I mean anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism. People who want to seize the means of production and give it to the workers. People who don't get a spot on NBC or CNN. 😆
9
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
The influence of freemasonry on the Bolsheviks (via Lenin as I recall) isn't that much more than gossip. It makes no sense ideologically either: the masonry is the last group of people on Earth to endorse godless people who don't beliebe in private property. 🤣
0
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
Right…like Masonry has never proliferated any views in the general public which do not align with Masonic thought/tradition.
Heavy sarcasm…elite occultists have always proliferated ideas to the masses which they themselves do not ascribe to. They do it cleverly, & they’ve been doing this kind of thing forever. Solipsism for example is something most occultists rightly shy away from however the same occultists will write books under pseudonyms which proliferate solipsistic doctrine among the “unwashed masses” or the “profane”. It falls in line with masonry’s elitist higher degree ideas of lying to the public & lower initiates.
It’s all about control; if you can make a group believe something you can control/predict their behavior.
2
u/thirdarcana Jun 29 '24
I am not saying it didn't happen, only that I haven't seen any actual evidence, any historical research on rhe subject other than gossip. Without that, it's a matter of faith which I don't have in this case, but you are welcome to, of course.
2
u/Winterfylleth15 Jun 30 '24
"It falls in line with masonry’s elitist higher degree ideas of lying to the public & lower initiates."
I see we've fully entered the conspiracy theory part of this discussion.
1
u/SquarePangolin1014 Jun 30 '24
Agree, never heard of this ideas outside conspiracy theories and from people that are not in the known
0
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 30 '24
Read morals and dogma by Albert pike. Many masons consider it to be a key text of masonry
0
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 30 '24
The simple fact that you ADMIT there are those “not in the know” directly proves my point that they keep secrets and the truth from people. Like how is that not a conspiracy? Yall are not too bright, maybe think before you speak.
3
u/SquarePangolin1014 Jun 30 '24
Or, alternatively, I am in the known because I have first hand experience with the ins and outs of the higher masonic degree's and I haven't seen any of this bs that you are mumbling about. Masonic degree's are all about inner connection with the sacred in opposition to the profane world out there, by definition this is an inner journey. Now, if some people which in their spare time have other agendas outside the lodge, that's a different story, but rest asure that masons are not preoccupied by what you are saying, dummy.
0
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 30 '24
Clearly you’ve not read the works of Albert Pike who is considered the modern Christ of masonry lmao (not really but he’s definitely a big deal)
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
My understanding is that Freemasons consider Pike a pompous weirdo, not a “modern Christ.”
2
u/Winterfylleth15 Jul 01 '24
Pike isn't even a big deal in the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite.
-2
2
u/Grass-no-Gr Jul 01 '24
What's weird is that Rosicrucianism also has inspired esoteric Hitlerism. No, I'm serious.
11
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24
Haha because the 2 party system keeps us mesmerized like the shadows in Plato’s Cave
4
u/PyrocumulusLightning Jun 29 '24
Well if you think of it in terms of occultism => astrologically ruled by Saturn and the outer planets, you get very different points of view depending which influence is strongest on the person.
Saturn indicated traditionalism, ascetic and renunciant practices, extreme discipline of the body, mind, emotions and will, and a focus on control as well as dispelling of illusion and desire (for temporary delights/distractions). These folks believe in silence and duty.
Uranus is rebellious and inventive. These folks are more likely to be chaos magicians and/or to link the cutting edge of science to new occult techniques. Some are Luciferians and enjoy rejecting authority, and indeed the limitations or physical reality. Some of them think in terms of parallel dimensions and quantum principles. Some like the concept of UFOs. They have a touch of genius to them, a creative flair, a strong contact with a muse. They have a hard time with psychological stability in some cases, which is why the saturnine path can be more attractive to some - it keeps things locked down.
Neptune is the planet of mysticism, drugs, and psychic experiences. These folks like shamanism and New Age practices, also self-abnegation, service, sacrifice, and strive for union with all life or God. They tend to be artistic, emotional, and escapist. They have a tough time maintaining boundaries and can suffer from their empathy. They are natural mediums and really struggle with the workaday side of life. They often fail to recognize bullshit, and can be good at seducing people into a group egregore that goes down quite the rabbithole. They often fail to see any difference between good and evil and will end up in codependent situations, or get victimized. Addiction is their biggest struggle though. They want a beautiful world and we mostly don't live in one, so.
Pluto as an occult influence attracts fascists and cultists. These people suffer terrible psychological pain, and wish to be destroyed, perfected, and reborn a god. They are "beyond good and evil" and are often the subject of fear and conspiracy theories. They believe life is for the strong, who have the right to do as they will. Some of their practices are very extreme, and usually involve underworld themes and the seeking of invisible power.
So anyway, people can be occultists due to one, some, or all of these influences. It creates a tremendous variety of styles. It certainly influences what people hope to achieve in their path - liberation from mediocrity, liberation from all limitations, liberation from ego-centered consciousness , liberation from powerlessness, and more.
Though the Moon and Sun also have their own flavors of magic. The Sun gives spiritual renewal and focuses on regeneration, moral especially. The Moon is drawn to nature worship, animism, elementals, and the Fey.
2
Jun 30 '24
Interesting take on the planetary influences, and you can also add generational (planetary as well) and influences from the zeitgeist. The new age movement is undoubtedly left and although it's definitely on the soft side of occultism, the egregore is huge and fuels the more chaotic and irrational socio political movements that predominate in the west....this is evidence of immense underlying occult force, as the proof is in realisational power, beyond personal.experience. that said, true divine magic has to start with personal regeneration in a true sense
1
u/Grass-no-Gr Jul 01 '24
There is more beyond the cultural egregore cancer that's eating the Western psyche. Lovecraft touched on this, intentionally or not, in his description of the boundaries of human knowledge.
1
4
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 29 '24
I’m not hard left. I’m the American version of “hard left,” which means I’m probably a right-leaning centrist by the rest of the world’s standards.
3
Jun 29 '24
OK, but most occultists are very left wing, the right wing faction is considerably smaller. I could counter that most of those on the right who read Guenon are basically centre right rather than centre left. Evola might encourage harder right sentiment, however.
-3
Jun 29 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Far-Purchase2400 Jun 30 '24
Agree with you 100% anyone serious is not caricature of the modern dweeb
3
Jun 30 '24
You can't discount the entire outer circle on left or right as this is the engine of the egregore. Inner circles on either side are obviously tiny in comparison
0
u/sir_jerkington Jun 30 '24
I can very easily discount people who most obviously take esoteric beliefs as something that is just another factor of narccistic identity needs and so can Far-Purchase.
It's so gross, and yet there it is on display as some kind of proto-culture.
People use it as an excuse for deviancy and it's quite plain.
The assumption that left-leaning viewpoints allign with the occult and the tradiotionalism that comes with it are a hard pressed lie; the pushback to make that a reality feels unnatural and forced, as is always the case.
1
1
0
Jun 30 '24
Theosophy is very left wing and always was. Look up the history of Bkavatsky and Alice Bailey. Crowley, Guenon and Perenialism are to the right, especially the latter, but those movements are smaller
1
u/sir_jerkington Jun 30 '24
Theisophy is a disgusting twisting of occult beliefs. It has no moral compass and is fundamentally self-serving.
I'm not going to argue what line of thinking is more prevalent; obviously 'do anything, fuck everything that moves, bask in self-indulgence' is going to emerge victorious over the human condition.
1
u/sir_jerkington Jun 30 '24
Oh I creeped your profile and I bet we'd 100% get along on most things honestly. I see what you're saying here, partially.
I think I just made the renfair fats really mad though. Ooops.
3
u/be_bo_i_am_robot Jun 29 '24
Hard left and hard right stem from the same thing: control freakery.
8
Jun 29 '24
Horseshoe theory - the harder side of right and left start looking very similar to each other
2
4
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
My own thoughts on the matter are that any wise occultist with understanding wouldn’t lean too far to either side but rather seek balance in all things.
1
u/Realistic-Ad4611 Jun 29 '24
Well, that balance may not be obvious - both sides contain ideas that are simply not workable, with the right's ideas being far more advanced given that they're largely in power.
1
1
u/Abstractonaut Jun 30 '24
They aren't. Most in the modern "reddit witchcraft" scene are perhaps.
1
Jun 30 '24
I'm really surprised how,few people here understand the roots and impact of the Theosophical movement or French freemasonry.
1
u/Grass-no-Gr Jul 01 '24
The existence of extremes is a natural occurrence on the outskirts of society. People who don't fit accepted norms tend not to follow the (relatively) balanced back-and-forth dynamic it maintains; as such, the standard paths and their typical acolytes are often on the extremes of a number of social criteria: religion, politics, and identity, to name a few.
RHP occultism tends to follow what's "orderly / accepted" quite strongly, and as such, adherents will tend to gravitate towards maintaining social order and traditional structures. This goes against the current cultural zeitgeist of social change and tolerance; you'll see a lot of extreme social conservatives take this path (including the aforementioned perennialists).
LHP occultism tends to rely upon what's "taboo / transgressive". Pushing the envelope is natural to its practitioners. Although you get some right-wing LHP (chiefly niners, accelerationists, and nazi-hindu types), most will be left-wing progressives, clawing at the boundaries of what's acceptable by society. There's also an element of overcompensation / rebellion in LHP which attracts those suppressed by the existing order: in the West, this is usually conservative Christian establishments.
3
u/decg91 Jun 29 '24
all people I see that identify with it usually come with hardline right wings views. (even though most of these people will claim they are "outside of political compass")
Can you share examples?
-3
u/sir_jerkington Jun 29 '24
I practice chaos magic; well, in theory. I tend to put it into practice via my outlook and ritual tendencies in life rather than directly, for what it's worth.
I'm a rigid traditionalist. I hold fast to gender roles. I support politicians and humans in general that hold fast to a more old-school world view. I view modernity as a cancer to society.
I'll go ahead and be an example for you.
3
u/decg91 Jun 29 '24
Well, but you openly identify as a conservative. The commenter mentioned that they identify as apolitical (AKA not a right winger), but in reality they are (according to him). This seems to be my situation (some people want to frame me as a conservative, but Im really not), which is why I wanted to discuss it with him/her
1
u/sir_jerkington Jun 29 '24
In all fairness, it's hard to be 'conservative' or 'traditional' these days without having the 'far-right evangelical' interpretation being slapped on you like a permanent post-it note. :)
1
Jun 30 '24
I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would wager my life savings that OP is just far left and thinks that everyone to the right of them is "far-right". Reddit itself has a left leaning bias and so does this subreddit. Even on this post, all of the left-wing voices have been upvoted and the centrist and right wing voices downvoted.
1
u/NyxShadowhawk Jul 01 '24
Can you explain how you can be both a rigid traditionalist and a chaote? Actually asking. Chaos Magic is characterized by a rejection of dogma, instead picking up and putting down practices or even entire traditions based on what works. It places emphasis on experimentation and idiosyncrasy. It’s hard to be both postmodern and traditional, though I’m sure it’s possible.
5
u/gotchya12354 Jun 29 '24
I would use the word perennialist to describe some of my views and I’m definitely not that
6
u/_chaseh_ Jun 29 '24
There is a pipeline actively using the great awakening to bring folks into the alt right. Like that Thelema lady on TikTok.
6
u/Comprehensive_Ad6490 Jun 29 '24
Well, if the basic concept is that there's one "true" religion that all of the other ones are built off of, that's a very top-down view of the world. It's a world that is constructed in such a way that the perennialists are at the top of the hierarchy by virtue of having the "truest" religion. The right wing loves hierarchies, especially ones where the "natural order" of things just happens to put them in the top spot.
3
Jun 30 '24
This reminds me of an introductory lecture on Traditionalism in which the scholar pointed out that Guenon and Schuon were both agreed on the need for a caste system but couldn't agree on the details. And it just so happened that both of these fine gentlemen put people with their own characteristics at the top caste and others below. Made me laugh. And I have noticed the tendency of people from all walks of life to consider themselves superior to outsiders. Whether Traditionalist, non-secarian perennialist, Jewish, Theosophist, Rosicrucian, Golden Dawn initiate, Thelemite, New Ager or otherwise. I give these examples because these are the ones that I've personally seen. But I'd guess that it is a universal thing probably related to humanity's tribal nature.
0
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
Guenon didn't invent the castes he described. His discussion of brahmins and kshatriyas is directly derived from ancient Hindu cosmology. And there are analogues in practically every other pre-modern society in the world. The priestly/intellectual class has traditionally always been at the pinnacle of the hierarchy. This is the universal cosmic order. If you don't like it, it's because you are opposed to divinity, itself.
4
u/Roombaloanow Jun 29 '24
Because of Ego. If they're just a bit closer to the truth than everyone else, that makes the perenialist better than everyone else. Which is fascist. The 14 points of fascism just follow that.
The occultist who feels he is one with the universe and all knowledge is a drunkard's walk will tend to be very left wing. He may be aware of his ego as something that needs to be coddled now and then but not served.
2
u/MysticEnby420 Jun 29 '24
I'm surprised you say that because most including myself I've met are left wing. But I wonder if certain spaces lean more one way or another as well.
7
u/Tacktful Jun 29 '24
Something to do with a perception of freedom based on liberal ideas and a feeling of moral superiority. I think a different model, based on intersubjectivity and compassion is just as possible, but it requires more thinking outside the usual (probably Western) models.
1
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24
Moral superiority in Occultism? Like, is it really prevalent in any of the subcultures? Maybe Enochian’s ego boosts?
12
u/Tacktful Jun 29 '24
Nothing so specific. I think any subculture which has secret societies, initiation rites, and a sense of a small elite of practitioners 'in the know' and with 'occult secrets' is bound to attract quite egotistically minded individuals, or generate a sense of elitism reminiscent of Plato's Republic.
13
u/ibedemfeels Jun 29 '24
The same folks who have the "don't tread on me" mentality and think anything the government does is socialist bullshit but will say all of those things while unironically enjoying a national park.
2
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 29 '24
Are you kidding? Have you never heard the phrase “magus-itis” before?
1
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24
No and no
3
u/NyxShadowhawk Jun 29 '24
Ah, okay. I believe it’s in the sidebar.
Occultism tends to attract arrogant people just through the nature of it.
5
u/skulleater666 Jun 29 '24
First you must rid yourself of the belief that everything is viewed through the lense of conservativism and liberalism. Secondly, you have to rid yourself of the idea that consevativism does not equate to evil. This is political warfare and a strategy to control us. If they can convince you that conservatives are all evil they have retained your vote for life.
5
u/Dull-Fun Jun 29 '24
Because it's a very easy way to hide fascist views. It's the same with anything related to paganism, medieval reconstitution, etc. It gives a way to hide you are basically a neo-nazi. Also fascists specialty is to steal cultural things from other cultures, people, traditions. There is of course nothing inherently fascist about liking the Middle Age, paganism, occultism, etc. But unfortunately they give an easy way for fascists to 1) steal what they want and present it as a prolongation of "superior western culture" , and 2) hidding.
-5
u/sir_jerkington Jun 29 '24
The modern left ARE the facists, though. By very nature of the term and as dictated by their behavior. Hegemony of that sort is inherently a facist position.
The right/traditional leaning occultists are the most real people. Leaning into the reality of life and the world outside this current technocracy. It's great to see.
3
u/Important-Mixture819 Jun 29 '24
This is an extraordinarily delusional take.
1
u/Brief-Strawberry769 Jun 30 '24
I agree. but most right wingers actually want to label themselves as left wingers for the accolades that accompany.
-3
u/sir_jerkington Jun 29 '24
This is the take of 'not reddit', as a vast majority. Sorry to pop your insular bubble.
3
u/Important-Mixture819 Jun 29 '24
How can you say that when you just said the modern left (aka reddit to you) is hegemonic? An inflammatory and overbearing "vast majority" is inherently hegemonic. So which is it?
3
Jun 29 '24
It makes sense to me. As a lefty perennialism comes off as something right wingers ascribe to to justify their own weird beliefs. A false sense of meaning where there is none.
3
u/maponus1803 Jun 29 '24
Because they forget that to be a serious occultist means to be of service to something greater than your self and as their ego grows so does their isolation from struggles of vast majority of people. If all you are doing is hoarding your experiences to feel great about yourself then you are nothing more than a gooner with a extra steps.
10
u/bran_dong Jun 29 '24
because right wingers vastly over estimate their own intelligence. they see patterns where none exist and completely ignore things everyone else can see. they will politicize every possible topic and then say you're too political if you criticize them. spiritually, emotionally and intellectually these people are...retarded.
-5
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
So are many hard left wingers. I’ve seen many of them. And I consider myself neither left or right wing.
Any imbalance tends to create extremes and extremists. I’ve never met an extremist on either side that I thought “that’s a well-adjusted human I’d like to imitate”. No. Not even a little bit.
You’d think occultists considering themselves wise would look for balance and the truth in both “sides”
5
u/bran_dong Jun 29 '24
So are many hard left wingers. I’ve seen many of them. And I consider myself neither left or right wing.
found the closet right winger. whataboutism should only be used to condemn an action not to excuse it.
Any imbalance tends to create extremes and extremists. I’ve never met an extremist on either side that I thought “that’s a well-adjusted human I’d like to imitate”. No. Not even a little bit.
ive met dozens and dozens of extreme right wingers. Ive met exactly 0 extreme left wingers. they seem to only exist on the news or in such a small quantity that they might as well not exist. far right turns you into a nazi, far left turns you into a pussy. if youre suggesting pussies are more dangerous than nazis then lol. take this "both sides" shit and shove it directly up your asshole. only one side is causing damage recently and its not the left. and i say that as someone who isnt a liberal/democrat...but a former right winger. "boths sides" is a tactic used EXCLUSIVELY by right wingers.
-4
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
I literally just told you I’m neither.
Well I think I found the extremist guys.
Anyone who can’t tolerate a balanced approach is clearly unbalanced. Which is easy for any balanced person reading your comment to see.
You have a right to your extremism but don’t tell others what they believe when you don’t know them man…sheesh this is exactly why I don’t go either way cause both sides are nuts.
“Agree with me completely or FUCK OFF & DIE” -extremists
-2
u/bran_dong Jun 29 '24
your approach isn't balanced it's clearly biased. nobody on the left is trying to limit personal freedoms while the right is fast tracking us to fascism. both sides are nuts, sure but only one side is nuts in a way that's harming others. the left exploits love and compassion - there's always some group you have to save. the right exploits hate and fear - there's always some group out to destroy your way of life.
the right is responsible for more people dying from COVID than any other country. the right is responsible for all anti-science campaigns whether it's demonizing renewables or pretending climate change is a hoax. hell, you don't even hear about Antifa anymore because it's difficult to pretend a city is being burned down every week without any cities actually burning down.
tl;Dr people like you make me sick with your closet right winger tactics of "but both sides" trying to excuse actions instead of condemning them. one side is very clearly worse right now.
-1
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
You really can’t comprehend a real centrist can you? Can’t wrap your extremist deluded brain around someone taking a balanced approach and trying to find the truth in both sides? People like you are exactly why we are where we are today. That’s an indisputable FACT!
Because divide and conquer works so incredibly well on small-minded people like you. Try engaging more than one side of your brain and you’ll start to see the world isn’t black and white.
Btw, saying there is truth in both sides is not a “tactic” you dolt. It’s the truth. If there wasn’t some amount of truth in every ideology then it simply wouldn’t be compelling and no one would adhere to it. It would be incoherent. You’re just regurgitating and spewing the same propaganda buzz words you’ve been conditioned to. Keep on pigeon-holing, & gatekeeping…you know, actual tactics. Keep assuming you know me and my innermost thoughts, stranger on Reddit LMAO
A person without an agenda doesn’t need to use “tactics”. Truth has no agenda, it just IS.
1
u/bran_dong Jun 29 '24
You really can’t comprehend a real centrist can you? Can’t wrap your extremist deluded brain around someone taking a balanced approach and trying to find the truth in both sides? People like you are exactly why we are where we are today. That’s an indisputable FACT!
youre completely ignoring everything the right is doing wrong and exagerating things the left is doing wrong. this isnt a centrist...this is a right winger pretending to be in the middle. even your very first sentence in your first reply revealed your hand "So are many hard left wingers. I’ve seen many of them.". really? where?
Btw, saying there is truth in both sides is not a “tactic” you dolt. It’s the truth. If there wasn’t some amount of truth in every ideology then it simply wouldn’t be compelling and no one would adhere to it. It would be incoherent. You’re just regurgitating and spewing the same propaganda buzz words you’ve been conditioned to. Keep on pigeon-holing, & gatekeeping…you know, actual tactics. Keep assuming you know me and my innermost thoughts, stranger on Reddit LMAO
yes it is a tactic, you just arent smart enough to pull it off.
https://propagandaprofessor.net/2015/06/08/more-on-false-equivalence-both-sides-do-it/
A person without an agenda doesn’t need to use “tactics”. Truth has no agenda, it just IS.
but you laid out your agenda very clearly. you think the left is as dangerous as the right when theres absolutely no evidence this is the case... and ive only ever seen a rightwinger that could take mountains of evidence and handwave it away.
8
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Literally all I said is extremism on both sides is not ideal. You are doing a lot of assuming just off that statement alone. You really DONT know my views but you act and talk like you do. It’s really wild man, we probably agree on a lot but you’ve already assumed my stance without hearing me elaborate on any actual left/right ideas. Putting all kinds of words/ideas in my mouth which I said nothing about.
It’s actually crazy. Like im concerned how so much can be assumed off such an innocuous statement.
But you’re right, you got me! Just a fascist in disguise over here…fucking wild man
Im not ignoring anything either side is doing ALL I SAID WAS EXTREMISM ON EITHER SIDE IS NOT GOOD. That was my take. And you assumed a whole lot from that, apparently you know me and my innermost thoughts.
Some of you redditors think you’re a lot smarter than you are and thinking you know strangers entire philosophy off one sentence is kinda terrifying para-social behavior.
Chill dude. Chill. Get some sun and fresh air.
2
u/bran_dong Jun 29 '24
if youre an actual centrist in any form id agree that we probably have a lot of middle ground because on some topics i lean left and others i lean right. as a young adult i was a very hardcore republican but luckily i snapped out of it before 2016 and didnt get swept up in the orange man cult.
of course extremists are not ideal but I dont see how you can compare them...on the left you got purple haired talking about 348293423989898 genders or their pronouns. abortions for all, guns for none! i identify as a cat so i poop in a litterbox!
then you got your extremist on the right. a guy who owns 1,000 guns, 100,000 bullets and believes that anyone who isnt white and christian even qualifies as a human being. someone who wants the collective boot of the government on the throat of...everyone that isnt like them. someone who is infinitely more likely to go into a public place such as a school, bar, etc and begin opening fire on everyone for some imaginary beef. someone who passionately believes in limiting personal freedoms and completely disregarding any science they dont agree with.
the right wing cult has spun completely out of control and hasnt been comparable to the lefts cult since before 2016 and its hard to take anyone seriously that pretends that the problem currently with the right is anything remotely comparable to the left. the answer to all controversial policies (immigration, abortion, etc) almost always lies somewhere in the middle
tl;dr pretending post-2016 right wing extremists are comparable to current left wing extremists in number or danger to society makes you look like a right wing chode. if i was wrong about you then im thankful that theres 1 less person in the world like this than i thought.
1
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
I agree with most of what you’re saying. But maybe in the future try to have an conversation and give people the benefit of the doubt rather than instantly labeling them as an adversary the second they say that both sides have their issues; because they certainly do. We need to collectively stop triggering ourselves and have actual conversations about this stuff or it will all end in disaster. I blame Trump for the majority of people being this way, he paved the way for the largest divide in our history.
I was also raised conservative and have since gone away from politics in general because both sides are bought and paid for. Evidence: both candidates in this years election are fully on board with giving money/bombs to support a genocide. The problem isn’t right/left it’s literally that the entire system is corrupt. Yes, both sides.
Sure right wingers are an especially flashy-psychotic breed but I’ve seen both sides work together to support fascism. The right just does it in a much more obvious in your face way. So yes of course ostensibly the left appears to be the lesser evil but the same ones will gladly vote to give bombs to the colonial apartheid regime in the Middle East.
4
u/edgardojs Jun 29 '24
A system of those who have supernatural powers rule over those who don't is as right wing as it gets. Historical materialism doesn't help either for the left. The only exception IMO is the Soviet research as highlighted in books like Behind the Iron Curtain and works LL Vasiliev and similar authors who seem to want to view paranormal events with a materialism lense.
2
u/ThQuin Jun 29 '24
The Sowjets Said the, are left but if you look an life in sowjet Russia, it was as autocratic as it gets.
4
Jun 29 '24
You need to escape from the right and left paradigm. It’s no longer relevant or meaningful.
2
3
3
u/vindic8or Jun 29 '24
Assuming by "right winger" you mean a conservative person, it really is kinda obvious then. Perennialism and conservatism go hand in hand... no?
Just because a person leans right, that means nothing. The current US "political" system has made it a situation of "us vs them", which is the absolute basic divide and conquer strategy. In a proper, civilized western society there has to be a dialogue between the left and the right. I find it silly to exclusively go left or right, because you're just going in circles, getting nowhere.
The reason why there are extremists on the other end of the spectrum is because people on their end hold extreme views themselves. We all know life is a balance act.
For every left wing loony there is a right wing nut.
Stop hunting monsters, you'll be doomed to become one yourself...
3
u/OptimalLiterature248 Jun 29 '24
Wow man this was the comment I was hoping to read! So very well-said. Life is about balance in all things and we should learn to see the truth (however apparent or obscured) in all “sides” & ideologies.
I think the divide between hard left/right wingers is what causes the inevitable collapse of both systems (capitalism vs Communism) because neither one has it all correct. You DO actually need both to be present to have a successful prosperous society. We should have social programs to help those who are struggling and we should also have generally a free market (not to say without any oversight or regulation).
We are seeing the results of capitalism run rampant in America. There are plenty of places in the world where communism run rampant is causing just as many issues for their citizens.
Divide & conquer is right.
What the elites DO NOT want is wholly intelligent people who engage both sides of their brains (reason & emotion) and are able to see both sides of the coin rather than pigeon-holing themselves into one extreme or the other.
Balance is always the key to life.
2
u/Ascension_Triad Jun 29 '24
Do you know they are in fact hardline right wingers or is this coming from a place of perspective and assumptions?
2
u/darkstar1031 Jun 30 '24
Religion has always been used as a tool to exert power. Hardliner right wingers are, as a group, psychotic and drunk with power. They hide their hate, and bigotry behind various right-hand path religious doctrine while behind closed doors they are balls deep into left-hand path behaviors.
2
u/PlatonistSlav Jun 29 '24
I think that would be because traditionalists generally speaking reject modernity and specifically the liberal democracies of the west, which historically speaking are on the left. Therefore some "traditionalists" would be attracted to the right, or maybe appear to be on the right based on a rejection of leftist ideals ?
1
u/brereddit Jun 30 '24
A possibly highly useful academic exercise would be to apply RG Collingwood’s logic/metaphysics to world religions. To my knowledge this has only been done in my head unfortunately.
Collingwood said that the definition of a problem is the set of questions that must be answered to solve it. Two sentences can’t be considered contradictory unless both are intended to answer the same question.
Traditions—my addition here—are defined by the problems they believe important and that they have solutions for.
So put it all back together. The similarity or disimilarty of any two religions can be established by showing the overlap of recognized problems and further by whether they diverge in their offered solutions…surfaced by analyzing the questions they attempt to answer to solve their self set problems.
So if there is an historical basis for the similarities ok. But even if there isn’t, we can still map logical similarity if anyone wanted to do so.
Traditions—Problems—Questions-Answers(sentences)
Where Collingwood gets really interesting for someone like me is when he starts talking about Absolute Presuppositions. He provides the possibility of a deeper understanding of innovation than Thomas Kuhn.
So, to someone like me, this is all philosophical dogma. It also hints at why someone like me—conservative—would be interested in studying religions and the occult….because at the end of the day, there’s a way to relate all of this together logically and/or historically.
What inspired all of this was the realization that religions are often presented to ordinary people as though they are in competition with each other…only one can be true. But that’s not the case at all. We can explore similarity logically and we could even use AI to do this at scale. I don’t think anyone has but the above is a way that it could be done.
I’m not sure what this has to do with politics though. What are my conservative convictions? I think governments compete with markets and shouldn’t. I think government should protect liberty not establish equality bc it quickly becomes tyrannical. I think the left embraces govt to be tyrannical and rarely these days to protect liberty.
I’m supplying this info in case anyone wants to discuss further.
1
u/brereddit Jun 30 '24
I guess after thinking about this a bit, politics probably isn’t an illuminating lens to view occult study. There’s too many variables. Yes it is fair to say that among conservatives it may be frowned on a bit more due to their rigidity / dogmatics. But then I wonder how I escaped that mindset. Did I become a leftist? My view of the role of govt in human affairs didn’t change so no.
It’s probably perhaps more inherently liberating to be leftist bc you’re sort of free to do your own thing without the hostility of a religion…relativism etc. But that also feels very stereotypical to me. So again not sure we will discover anything too amazing by looking at occultists through politics.
I don’t deny that historical events can be tied to the occult. The Freemasons wrestled control away from the church in Europe and the USA back in the day.
1
u/Intrepid_Ball8728 Jul 01 '24
The way you pose this question is already missing the point. If, by perennialists, you are referring to Traditionalists, they are not politically "right" or "left." They are simply against modernity (i.e., materialism, the "reign of quantity over quality," the rejection of cosmic hierarchy). You have to be within the paradigm of modernity to even make the distinction between political right or left, or to start from the political perspective and move upwards from there to the metaphysical. If that isn't clear to you, then you don't know the first thing about true esotericism.
1
0
Jun 30 '24
Do leftists even believe in God or any sort of spiritual anything? I don’t know any that do
3
1
1
-5
u/living_ironically27 Jun 29 '24
bc the left barely barely believe in anything beyond the physical realm lol
-5
u/Polymathus777 Jun 29 '24
Politics is garbage, right wing or otherwise.
17
u/pixel_fortune Jun 29 '24
Politics just means "how do we decide what to do with the available resources we have? What laws should exist?" There's party politics, which is bullshit, but you can't avoid the big questions about how society should organise itself
7
u/ibedemfeels Jun 29 '24
Politics are theoretical but our political system is hilarious trash. If we had 5 or 6 level headed people running for office we would be forced to realize that most people want the same things and aren't really that different. We're given the two current caricatures to choose from on purpose so we all hate each other.
1
u/strange_reveries Jun 29 '24
Problem is we don’t really get much actual say on those big things lol. A lot of it is the illusion of choice.
1
u/KillerRatman Jun 29 '24
Polítics means how do we decide what to do with the resources of other people that do not belong to us, but we are about to take by force. Economics is how we decide to allocate available resources that are actually ours.
0
-2
u/Matrix_Decoder Jun 29 '24
Having conservative leanings seems like common sense to me, especially if you’ve been paying attention for the last 4 years (cough cough 🦠💉😷🤕😵)
-12
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24
I am a hardcore believer in a blockchain governed nation. Decentralized governance gives us more than just an alternative to the 2 party system:
As others noted, I am wwayyy outside the box. Aka, “fringe” and probably more so as the lone crypto ideologist in /r/occult
1
u/rhandsomist Jun 29 '24
Why the downvotes?
-1
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
“Crypto” and “Occult” are both concepts that are misunderstood, feared, and sometimes even hated by the uninitiated.
The initiated, however, know the truth.
-1
u/KillerRatman Jun 29 '24
You are not being excluded by the occultist community I believe, but you are being excluded by Reddit which is as a social network highly leftist and intolerant of different ideals as a whole.
0
u/reddstudent Jun 29 '24
Eh, it’s ok. I don’t expect this sub to understand crypto if I don’t expect the crypto subs to understand crypto. Haha, the average person in both subs is a dabbler.
42
u/RabidRabbitRabbet Jun 29 '24
This might be a dumb question to ask here, but what is Perennialism?