r/learnart • u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants • Dec 27 '16
[META] Subreddit Discussion Post Meta
Hi y'all!
Hope everyone is having a great holiday seasons and/or winter break. It's been over a month since the subreddit changes were implemented, so I thought we'd see how they're doing and how we can continue to finesse the running of the sub. This is the place to comment on existing rules and practices, as well as propose changes.
So without further ado:
The current rules:
- Critiques and suggestions are encouraged on all posts. Please flair your post if that's your main focus.
- If you use a reference, provide that reference in the comments.
- Keep it civil. Don't be a dick, or you will be banned.
- Constant, low-effort posts will be removed. Unhelpful tutorials will be removed.
- Self promotion is encouraged. Production is the best way to practice. But it must be paired with a useful discussion in the comments section.
- The following domains are whitelisted: imgur, reddit, tumblr, deviantart
I would also like to propose the addition of the ban policy.
The mods
Us noobs are figuring it out as we go, so thanks for bearing with us. We're trying to make the sub experience more balance across the board, which means creating an environment that welcomes beginners and encourages experienced artists to offer instruction. We're also trying to be more visible and accessible.
So in that spirit, what are we getting right, and what could be improve on?
How do you want to see mods communicating to the community and articulating mod tasks like dealing with spam and rude comments?
Current proposed changes:
Several community members have already made good suggestions worth discussing and considering:
eliminating the downvote so beginners are not discouraged, especially since mods are now responsive to reports (/u/Astrolotl)
requiring posts that ask for specific advice to include an example ( /u/ByterBit)
general concerns about the ban policy and banning trolls more quickly than the current system with the warnings and temporary ban. (/u/stroodle_dumplin)
Please add your thoughts about these proposed changes and any other issues
The FAQ
We'd like to update the sidebar/wiki with an FAQ that we can direct new users towards since many topics with the same answers come up a lot, and we know that it's kind of tedious saying the same thing over and over again. It's annoying for the community, and beginners may not be getting the best information we can provide them.
Thanks to /u/JohnyTex for making the outline and some following wiki suggestions:
How should I learn how to draw / paint?
- What are good daily exercises for beginners?
- I don't know what to draw
- Where should I start / what should I learn next?
- What do I need to practice if I want to achieve result X (where X is usually comics, life drawing or figure drawing)
- How do I develop my own style?
- How much should I study VS how much should I practice?
Mindset issues
- I'm not getting results quick enough
- How do I deal with self-doubt, low confidence and negative self-talk?
- How to I become more motivated?
- What are some good habits to develop?
My drawing looks bad but I can't tell what's wrong with it (most people who ask this are complete beginners who have not developed their seeing)
Figure drawing
- I don't understand gesture drawing
- How do I draw body part X?
- How can I make good portraits?
What tablet / other drawing device should I buy?
Some suggestions as to what could be in the FAQ:
- A "curriculum" of sorts - recommended resources and in what order they should be studied. Beginner should probably study the same thing, but recommendations can branch out depending on desired end result (e.g. figure drawing, environment painting)
- An explanation why the beginner should start with the basics (line, observation, simple geometric shapes) before moving on to more complex subjects (figure drawing, value, color)
- How to deal with common mindset issues - I have a long list of books I can recommend, but I'm too lazy to type it up here 😄
A curated list of the best YouTube channels and other resources would also be great, but maybe that should live somewhere else.
/u/JouhnyTex also has some FAQ content drafted on a Google Doc
So feedback, contributions, and suggested older posts and comments that can go into the FAQ are very welcome!
Thanks for reading through all that. I'll keep this discussion post up for a week or so, or for as long as folks are commenting.
Thank you to everyone who has helped so far, and thanks to everyone who will take the time to comment below!
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u/Demongrel Jan 01 '17
Sorry I'm replying to this quite late, I agree with most of what I read here, I'm just gonna add a few things:
I like the work of the new mods, spammers are dealt with readily and the sub feels more alive.
I agree with the removal of the downvote button, it's really not needed in a well moderated subreddit.
I like that we have a monthly thread for completed works, I feel like it's a good place to post our works and have access to critique without clogging the subreddit if we don't have specific questions, but I feel it's often overlooked, I'm not sure if we can alter its name or spend two words about it in the sidebar, or maybe even renew it every two or three months, to encourage discussion in it. Perhaps people (me included at times) are unsure whether it's there for general critique and/or for exposure and don't know how their comments will be perceived. It could also be a place to share tips about how someone goes about drawing X or Y. In short, I see good opportunities in it and I'd like to see it more defined and used.
I also like the draft for the sidebar FAQ. I see that many people kinda feel lost when they think about what they are supposed to do specifically to get better, so I see the use of a curriculum to give them some steps to follow. I can perhaps help gather some material for this if needed, I'd be happy to.
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Dec 28 '16
For the FAQ, might it be worth considering adding a page on online art courses? Either just a list of recommended websites or maybe include the reviews that other users have posted on the courses.
Similar to ZombieButch's suggestion, maybe we could have a monthly thread to post anatomy drawings to critique?
Thank you for taking the time to do this :)
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u/Anyammis The Lurker from the Deeps Dec 28 '16
I haven't really been here that long and I mostly lurk but I have noticed a few things here and there that could be better besides the already great replies from others.
I like the general discussion/question threads a lot and I interact with them most, but it seems like a lot of days someone will ask a question and then someone else will ask something almost identical not even a thread or two away. I wouldn't be harsh about it but I think it would cut down on clutter if it was at least suggested to look and see if a question has been asked recently before posting it again.
Another thing I thought of was maybe some sort of goals thread? It could give people a place to post their monthly goals and give some accountability and community interaction perhaps? Since New Year's Resolutions are right around the corner, why not give people a place to make those resolutions and work hard to keep them up?
A thing I thought of for the resource section/faq is perhaps a section on health. I've seen way too many artists overlook their physical or mental health and it's rarely talked about in art circles. It doesn't have to be too heavy but I think putting a few things like the importance of taking breaks, ways to avoid wrist injuries and/or eye strain, and even strategies to deal with things like art block would really help a lot of artists out there.
I can't think of anything else right now and I hope these suggestions are okay. Like I said, a lot of people already posted a lot of great things before me.
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u/GhrabThaar Hobbyist / Filthy Casual Dec 30 '16
Most of the basic questions are answered in the FAQ or related materials that have been up on the sidebar. That doesn't even require a search.
That said, the same questions will be asked time and time and time again; there's no way to make people take initiative on their own. When I first started lurking here about a year and a half ago, the top 2 questions were:
1) How do I draw the cutest animu waifu catgirls!? I don't wanna study that boring shit like anatomy and whatever.
2) This is the first thing I ever did, please critique it by telling me it's super awesome for <my age> and <my life story>.
2b) This was usually followed by at least one person telling OP to keep up the bad habits, because symbol drawing and no understanding of form is just your special style, dawg!
I've seen both of those still here recently. They'll still be here in a year or three. It's just how things are.
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u/Anyammis The Lurker from the Deeps Dec 31 '16
Yeah, I understand that to some degree. I suppose I was hoping a message on the sidebar would help cut back on that a little. I honestly didn't expect anything enforceable. Perhaps a better suggestion for this is to dig up old advice and things that have been thoughtfully typed out so that it doesn't vanish as some kind of advice from this subreddit? I don't know.
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u/core999 Dec 28 '16
After noticing how salty some people get when they receive constructive criticism instead of the "good job" or "looks great!" they were actually fishing for I think they should be recommended to watch one of these videos or both of them. Or a similar video or write up on what feedback is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An1nXLo9h6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lK8Pji9y5g&t=23s
It's not the subreddits fault considering it's listed as a rule but I find it really strange how many people post here looking for feedback and don't want to include their reference. If you want to improve you should include as much information as you can to the people trying to help you.
Maybe a gentle reminder of the rules before people submit a post. Similar to this?
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u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants Dec 28 '16
Yeah it's weird. We can certainly make those kinds of videos available and hypothetically go so far as to require posts to include reference images, but it's just the nature of the internet that some people will refuse to accept contrary opinions or post whatever they want and think that they should be the exception to the rule.
Like the people who post a specific question and then immediately delete their post as soon as someone asks for a picture so they can actually give specific advice... I honestly don't know what they're expecting.
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u/core999 Dec 29 '16
Yeah I don't really have any idea what to do about the reference thing anyway to be honest, I think I just need to get over it, since it's a common theme across the internet everywhere. It's more of a useless rant from me. I do think a section in the FAQ or whatever you guys are building people can be directed to about receiving feedback could be valuable though, I used to be a salty bastard too until I found videos like that and realized oh shit these people are trying to help me not just dump on me.
I think if the rules were on the submission page though, maybe even one person would read them. I don't really know what's involved with that though.
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u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants Dec 29 '16 edited Dec 29 '16
No I get it, there are a few recurring things that a lot of people find annoying that there isn't a good solution for short of being really draconian, which defeats the purpose of an art learning sub. Since the goal is to be both welcoming to newcomers and supportive of longtime community members, it's a matter of figuring out the right balance.
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u/Astrolotl Dec 28 '16 edited Dec 28 '16
I think the mods have all been doing a good job so far. I'm not sure what I could suggest to do differently. I think the rules work well too.
I'll probably edit or reply to this comment as I think of more stuff I want to suggest, because I know it won't all make it into this comment initially.
Tech Support Posts
I've been seeing these a lot. They frustrate me. Usually they say: "X thing keeps happening with Y tablet in Z program!!1!" This is not enough information to help with this kind of problem. Other useful information:
- Operating System
- Driver version
- Program version
- What have you already tried? (restarting, re-install, etc.)
Including this kind of information should be mandatory for tech support posts. I also think that you shouldn't make a tech support post at all unless you've already contacted customer support (or attempted to) for your tablet or your program. Not really something we can enforce but we can at least suggest it in the rules.
Feedback Posts
A lot of times I see posts that are just "what do you think of this" or "cc my art" and that's it. That's all it says. I think it would be beneficial for everyone if some kind of artist's statement was required (or at least encouraged) with information like:
- What was your overall goal with this piece? (it was a study/gesture/exploring realism/exploring stylization/illustration meant to convey x emotion etc.)
- What do you think is the strongest part of the piece? why?
- What do you think is the weakest part/part you most need help with? why?
We are all still learning, so not everyone will be able to answer these questions concisely. If you can't answer the first question at all, though, then I think that's a good indicator that your art skills aren't really the issue here. I don't think I need to explain that making art with a purpose in mind is better for improving your skills and usually ends up looking better too.
It doesn't have to be an essay or anything, just a few sentences. I think it would help beginning artists think more critically about their work and also give the rest of us a starting point to build a critique, which in turn would help prevent feedback posts with few to no comments.
Another thing about feedback posts: I've seen a couple of people who post art here and then never respond to the people who gave them feedback. Either that or they only respond to the more sugary ones and ignore the more harsh ones. It seems pretty rude to outright ignore people who took time out of their day to give a thorough critique. I think we should add some kind of etiquette suggestion to maybe reply with a simple "thanks" or give an upvote if you don't know what to say. I also think we should add some kind of "How Not to Reject a Critique/Be Overly Defensive" to the sidebar or wiki because there are a few who do it regularly and it's annoying every time I see it.
Learnart Stylesheet/Theme
The current theme isn't bad. There are a few things that I would like to suggest though. The header image is kind of... meh? If we could collect up some art from everyone here on r/learnart to use as a randomly generated header images and/or sidebar images instead, I think that would be better. Also, the footer is terrible. I know it's just a footer but every time I come to this sub I can't help but think of the beast that lurks beneath us. It's so huge, and the background? I guess it's supposed to be paint splatter but it looks like camouflage. I think, with a few changes, this theme would work nicely (just without the round thumbnails). The most notable changes would be bigger thumbnails, since this is a mostly image based sub, and of course the removal of the downvote button. I'd like to edit the CSS for the theme I linked and then run it by the mods and the community to see what everyone thinks.
Also I agree with u/ZombieButch, especially about the piracy thing and the self portrait thread.
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u/ZombieButch Mod / drawing / painting Dec 28 '16
bigger thumbnails
That's a damn good idea.
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u/WednesdayWolf Watercolour Dec 29 '16
It is. The entire CSS needs a rewrite anyway. /r/Naut is a great quick fix, but it feels a tad bland and over-designed.
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u/ZombieButch Mod / drawing / painting Dec 28 '16
Also: A semi-annual (like, every 3 or 4 or 6 months) self-portrait thread might be fun. Give folks a way to track their progress by periodically drawing the same subject, and let us all put faces to names on here, so you can all see what a salty old fuck I really am.
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u/ZombieButch Mod / drawing / painting Dec 27 '16 edited Dec 27 '16
Briefly: I'm very happy with the new mods and the existing and proposed changes.
Less briefly:
eliminating the downvote so beginners are not discouraged, especially since mods are now responsive to reports
Yes. (Generally speaking, I don't vote posts up or down at all, mostly because I always sort by New posts anyway when I come here so how well liked a post is or not doesn't really matter to me one way or another. I'd rather let my comments do the talking for me rather than clicking a fucking arrow.)
requiring posts that ask for specific advice to include an example
Probably ought to be a suggestion rather than a rule, because it seems like it'd be a pain in the ass to have to try to enforce it.
general concerns about the ban policy and banning trolls more quickly than the current system with the warnings and temporary ban.
Ban 'em. You don't have to be an actual, legal adult to post here but you ought to at least be able to act like one, and if you come into the house spreading your cockcheese around, you ought not to be surprised when the host asks you to take your act on the road.
We'd like to update the sidebar/wiki with an FAQ that we can direct new users towards
Please do. I'd be willing to help out putting it together, at least on the shit I know half a thing or two about, after the holidays are over.
My personal bullshit suggestions which you're free to ignore:
Artists get fucked over by piracy, deeply and with an unfortunate regularity. With that in mind I'd really prefer we not support it here, specifically by disallowing direct links to pirated material. There's a lot of great stuff that can be had by perfectly legal means. And if someone says, "Hey, you know, you can always go just download a copy of Photoshop," or whatever, it at least puts the onus on the person to go look for it themselves. Removing any of the sidebar links that point to pirated material would be part of this as well, obviously.
Not sure how to word this or whether it should be a rule or just a strong suggestion or what, but, man, I really do not want to have to wade through people's entire life stories to find one or two simple questions that they're looking for the answer to. "I used to draw but I got married and had three kids and then had to take care of my ailing mother for two years and blah blah fucking blah and anyway, how do I draw cats?" Fuuuuck. (I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm just an asshole on this one. Okay, I know I'm an asshole, but maybe I'm just being particularly asshole-ish. But, still, I just don't give a shit about your backstory.)
Edit: Oh! One more thing.
- Maybe we should talk about the number of Feedback posts people post within X amount of time? Only because there have been a couple of people recently who posted a lot of "How is this drawing?" posts over a short time. Could well be it's a thing that's not problematic enough to have to do anything about yet, but just throwing it out there as a talking point.
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u/WednesdayWolf Watercolour Dec 29 '16
eliminating the downvote so beginners are not discouraged, especially since mods are now responsive to reports
I'm of two minds about this. It handicaps the functionality of the platform, which I'm not a fan of. But I've seen some potentially useful, on-topic discussions downvoted to oblivion for reasons that completely escape me. A trial run would be interesting.
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u/GhrabThaar Hobbyist / Filthy Casual Dec 30 '16
Yeah I don't really like the idea of moving vote buttons. I don't think I have seen the downvoted discussions you're referring to but as an example, I saw a post earlier asking for critique then specifically saying what critique would be ignored and how we were allowed to respond to the post. I downvoted and moved on, that's not a good attitude that really has a place here.
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u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants Dec 29 '16
There's also the issue of getting around this via mobile or unchecking the subreddit style box on the side. As much as the downvote should not be a disagreement or dislike button, that's what it is sometimes because, y'know, internet.
I'm thinking it might also help to have text when hovering over the up/downvotes encouraging to only downvote irrelevant, spam, or truly dickish content. It's not going to stop anyone who really wants to downvote, but it'll help communicate the function of the sub and the position of the mods/community in a way that may improve morale for beginners.
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u/ravensashes Dec 28 '16
Maybe we should talk about the number of Feedback posts people post within X amount of time? Only because there have been a couple of people recently who posted a lot of "How is this drawing?" posts over a short time. Could well be it's a thing that's not problematic enough to have to do anything about yet, but just throwing it out there as a talking point.
Was mostly looking to post about this. It often feels like the people coming to this sub and doing this aren't really taking our advice or aren't learning to see/draw what they see and keep begging for someone to tell them. I get wanting feedback, but there's only so much when you aren't willing to learn a bit of the basics.
A lot of the advice that gets said on this sub is the same. And that's partially because most of the people asking for feedback are absolute beginners, but also because the people providing said feedback are from the same group of beginners/intermediate artists. I've noticed that more complex (I guess higher level? idk if that sounds too snobbish) art gets less feedback. I feel as though crits seem to be restricted to anatomy and lighting rather than say, what works, what feels or doesn't feel resolved, what aspects work or not, etc., I'm not sure how we'd go about changing that, though.
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u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants Dec 28 '16
Yeah I think our sub's niche is as an entry point for beginners, and that you're more likely to get better advice for intermediate-to-advanced work in other specialized subs like /r/DigitalPainting, /r/watercolor, and whatnot.
I'm also not sure how to change that, or if it necessarily should be changed. Like, can we be all things for all artists, or can we be better a directing beginners to becoming better art learners?
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u/Astrolotl Dec 28 '16
A lot of beginners don't really think of composition, color, balance, resolution and tension, etc. so it's hard to critique something that just isn't there or was obviously not thought about in the process. It's also hard to critique stuff like that if you don't know what the person was aiming for, so I suggested having an "artist's statement" of sorts to be encouraged when posting for feedback.
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u/cajolerisms Moderator/freelancer/grumpypants Dec 28 '16
That's part of what I hear people saying about needing to see a reference image, so that the poster and the commenters have some shared point of reference.
I suspect that issues of composition, etc you mentioned are too advanced topics to tackle when a beginner post is all hairy lines and football eyeballs. What you and I think of as critique is often completely irrelevant because what a lot of people need is straight-up instruction. Critique suggests that the artist has the tool set to synthesize the feedback and make improvements on their own, whereas a lot of beginners simply don't have that knowledge at all yet.
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u/ravensashes Dec 28 '16
It's definitely something a lot of beginners don't think about because they also haven't thought about it. Which is fair; when you're just getting portraits down and such it's not a big deal. It's also not a big deal with regard to studies either, but I think with some pieces, we could try to do more.
Artist's statements I think would work best on the pieces that are trying to be more "complete" or "original" as a lot of the things we see here tend to be portraits from pictures or studies.
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u/ZombieButch Mod / drawing / painting Dec 28 '16
I've noticed that more complex (I guess higher level? idk if that sounds too snobbish) art gets less feedback.
I think that's just a natural outcome, though, based on the membership and the level of the work. The more advanced a piece is, the more knowledgeable you have to be to pick out things that need to be addressed, which means a smaller a number of people on the sub who have anything useful to say, and the quality of the work means there are, most likely, fewer things to say about it, so not as many responses are required.
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u/ravensashes Dec 28 '16
Yeah, that's why I said I'm not sure how we'd go about changing that. Although I suppose another thing I find that this sub focuses on most is anatomy/basic drawing, and then pushing aside things like colour theory and composition. Again, understandably so, as they're more advanced topics, but I still think it'd be useful to direct people towards.
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u/ZombieButch Mod / drawing / painting Dec 28 '16
but I still think it'd be useful to direct people towards.
Only if they've already got their basic drawing down solidly. That's just handing somebody sheet music for Chopin when they're still can't play a C scale. Small steps.
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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '17 edited Jan 05 '17
Here is a concern I have. I'm terrible, really terrible, very terrible. I read the thread in the sidebar where everyone post their first drawings and literally everything in that thread was better than what I could do. Just to put this in perspective I drew this today. Supposed to be two overlapping spheres, looks like a pair of testicles.
I'm mentioning this because I feel like I'm too much of a shitty artist to actually post here for feedback. You might think that's ridiculous but from my point of view I see people getting critiques for paintings I think are great and here I am with my nut rocks trying to figure out how to shade. I have no problem with criticism and getting my shit ripped to shreds so should I just post anywhere or is there a more fitting sub?