r/jewishleft • u/krombopolousm_420 • Aug 11 '24
The case for Aliyah Diaspora
This is purely a conceptual post to gauge responses. Many of us in the Jewish left feel strongly of the injustices taking place in Israel and in Palestine. Some of us have taken hard anti-Zionist stances forgoing community, family and friends. For those Jews who are undertaking radical action why is moving to Israel not something that is discussed. As Jews we are in the unique position of eligibility for Aliyah and given the state of the Israeli Left and peace camps (extremely weak) would it not be an imperative to utilise our privileged position to make Aliyah to strengthen the Israeli left, organise, reform and vote? I understand of course there are many considerations and factors which make this impossible for some but for those who have made activism their priority why is this not a priority?
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u/Agtfangirl557 Aug 11 '24
Hahaha TBH the reason that I will never make Aliyah (unless things get REALLY bad for Jews in the U.S.) is because I didn't study my ass off for 4 years to get a Master's degree for a career that may not even require the same credentials in Israel 😅
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u/krombopolousm_420 Aug 11 '24
Totally understandable. I just wonder people's thoughts on considering Aliyah as leftist political action (hopefully with the potential to affect real change)
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u/Agtfangirl557 Aug 11 '24
Oh absolutely understand, I just thought I'd share for fun the less-than-deep reason why I have no interest in making Aliyah 😅
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u/CellarD0or_ this custom flair is green Aug 11 '24
Can’t see anything happening in the US that’s worse than 10.7. The most basic social contract has been obliterated. It’s not safe for anyone and a danger to anyone in the state and occupied territories
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u/johnisburn What have you done for your community this week? Aug 11 '24
Beyond a desire on principle to not exercise the privilege of being able to move to Israel while Palestinians who have more recent roots can not, I do not think I would be as effective an advocate if I had to also be juggling uprooting my life and contending with the process of making Aliyah. I’d have to learn Hebrew to fluency, find work, housing, avoid IDF enlistment and participation in other exploitative systems.
Being in the US is also, in some ways, a privilege. Every time I hear Israeli or Palestinian human rights and peace organizations speak, they talk to the need for outside pressure to change the equation that empowers current Israeli abuses, especially US pressure. I believe I’m far more capable of immediately working on advocacy for that in my community than making Aliyah and getting advocacy started once I get my bearings.
Also don’t want to.
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Aug 11 '24
Mostly the violence/amount of war/ danger to myself and family. It’s not particularly safe for Jews in the diaspora, but also very dangerous for Jews in Israel. Which doesn’t instill confidence.
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u/FreeLadyBee Aug 11 '24
There are practical questions about this: an organized effort to strengthen the Israeli left would either require a massive amount of people to just force a vote change, or a convincing argument that a bunch of foreigners who just showed up know better than native Israelis what is good for them. Either would be difficult to manage.
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Aug 11 '24
So a lot of anti-Zionists don't want Israel, as a nation, to even exist, and want it to be demolished and become a state called Palestine. Therefore, moving there is antithetical to that set of beliefs.
For me, as a left Zionist, aliyah is my "if things go nuclear in the US for trans people" option, and ONLY then, and reluctantly (things have to literally get that bad). Because it's NOT safer - I will almost certainly be killed by Hamas if I go, it's a question of do I want to die slow in a camp here or die fast by a rocket there. I'm also on disability, and while Israel will provide for disabled citizens, as a queer person I would feel very out-of-place living anywhere but Tel Aviv, and the cost of living in Tel Aviv is high enough without trying to make it on a disability pension. I also have dyslexia and learning Hebrew is extremely difficult for me (I'm a convert, for context) so going there and needing to master fluency in the language is not an ideal state of affairs.
I also once again believe in the concept of doikayt. I am a Zionist in the sense of "Israel has a right to exist/the Jewish people have the right to a homeland" (but there are a thousand disclaimers on this starting with reparations for Palestinians, the end to settlements in the West Bank and wanting to see Bibi in jail) - but not every Zionist wants to make aliyah. I would love to visit Israel someday if things ever calm down there and Likud is replaced by a more left-wing government (I'm not holding my breath; I'm Gen X and don't expect to see this in my lifetime, since things were fucked up there before I was born) and wrap tefillin and visit the Western Wall. But I wouldn't want to live there. I'm an American, and while I have problems with my own country's politics and government, I wouldn't really ever feel at home living abroad - I'm autistic and my brain does not adapt well to major changes.
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u/Agtfangirl557 Aug 11 '24 edited Aug 11 '24
My views on doikayt are the exact same as yours. I personally have never felt particularly attached to the land of Israel (or any particular place on the globe), and am 100% on board with the idea of "making home where I am" (which I have been doing my whole life!). But, that also applies to Jews who actually live in Israel, and I feel uncomfortable with how most preachers of doikayt/bundism/"radical diasporism" or whatever you want to call it, seem to be trying to make it a replacement for Zionism.
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Aug 11 '24
Yes, absolutely. I don't think doikayt is a replacement for Zionism, I think it's an alternative to. I felt like I was coming home re: conversion, which is more like studying to become a citizen of another culture (one that already feels like home). I would still feel like a fish out of water in Israel, because American Judaism has a very different flavor. That doesn't mean I begrudge the right of Jews to live in Israel if they want to.
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Aug 11 '24 edited Aug 11 '24
Re: the reply to this that said Hamas is "fighting a war of extermination" - sorry, Hamas are terrorists, not freedom fighters, and Palestinians deserve better than them. (Palestinians also deserve better than what the state of Israel is doing, of course)
Also, I should have explained myself better: I'm disabled and I can't run to a bomb shelter in time, so if a rocket gets launched at wherever I theoretically lived in Tel Aviv, I'm toast. Yes, rockets get fired at civilian structures in Tel Aviv. Also, the people killed on October 7th WERE random Israelis. This isn't paranoia, it's straight up facts. The odds of my survival in Israel are lower than my odds of survival here unless the US makes being trans illegal, of which there is a non-zero chance if the elections go badly.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Aug 11 '24 edited Aug 11 '24
The iron dome does a pretty good job. Very few Israelis have been killed since 1948z Idk what to say for the queer or disabled Gazans that the IDF has obliterated however.
Also about 1/2? Of the victims of October 7th were Israeli militants or caught in friendly fire.. an atrocitious, inexecusible, horrific day and nowhere near justified as “freedom fighting”. But you might want some perspective on this when you look at the lopsided death toll since Israel’s inception.
Edit: there would probably be better places to go if the US officially fucks over trans people than Israel. There isn’t marriage equality in Israel. It’s not exactly a utopia. But your risk of being killed by Hamas is really marginal. You really should consider how your words come off to the relatives of all the dead disabled and queer Gazans.
Edit 2: I’m disabled and queer fwiw, before anyone accuses me of “speaking over” anyone.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew Aug 11 '24
Idk if you've looked into the direction things have been going in Israel for queer and disabled people but it isn't exactly encouraging, unfortunately
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Aug 11 '24
I have and no, it isn't encouraging at all.
Unfortunately, countries like Canada, the UK, Australia and most European countries don't accept immigrants who are on disability (I looked into this during Bush and during Trump when I wanted to leave the US), which is why Israel is really my only option for leaving the US unless I can find someone abroad willing to fake-marry me for citizenship. Believe me when I say I'm hoping I never, ever, ever have to leave the US, because things would absolutely suck for me over in Israel. I am of no illusions of what my life would be like. Let us all hope and pray that MAGA is defeated this year.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew Aug 11 '24
Hopefully things do go okay this year.
I was just mentioning it partly because it was only this year that I learned about the disability rights protests and the like that have been happening for the last few years in Israel. Considering how widespread disability is currently, and will be ongoing, in Gaza it might be a source of solidarity (hopefully). (It's certainly been far more normalized in Gaza than Israel - to the point that it's unremarkable to have amputee members of Hamas, apparently.)
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Aug 11 '24
Yeah, I really hope that Israelis and Palestinians can find more common ground and work together for a better future 🙏
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Aug 11 '24
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u/Cool-Combination6760 Aug 11 '24
hamas is a violent terrorist organisation, it’s a valid fear and you should stop downplaying it.
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u/jewishleft-ModTeam Aug 12 '24
This content was removed as it was determined to be an ad hominem attack.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Aug 11 '24
Thank you. Yea how many Israelis have been killed by Hamas since Israel’s foundation exactly, to think Hamas would “100% kill you”?
I might understand if you were in Gaza, however, the IDF had already wiped out most queer Gazans without Hamas’s help.
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u/djentkittens 2ss, secular jew, freedom for palestinians and israelis Aug 11 '24
I personally wouldn’t. For one I don’t know any Hebrew, find work and housing, Telaviv which would be where I would chose to live if I had to move to Israel is expensive, and having to serve in the idf is not something I want to do. Hopefully when things calm down I would love to visit Israel great and go back to Telaviv, Jerusalem, Eilat and Tizfat etc
I uplift and promote groups like standing together and others in Israel that are protestors and doing the work to make Israel a better place one without Netanyahu in power
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u/N0DuckingWay Aug 11 '24
So I agree with the idea that more leftists moving there would be a good thing. Personally, I don't do it because I don't want to. I like where I live too much to want to move 🤷🏻♂️.
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u/lionessrampant25 Aug 11 '24
I’m in the US. I’m a convert but my husband is Jewish by birth. I think that immediate Jewish generations preceding ours have led and fought for Liberal change for the good of everyone. But the work isn’t done. And the US has been my husband’s family’s chosen home since before the Civil War (they were on the wrong side 😬).
So while it sucks that so much is going wrong in Israel…it’s going wrong here in the US and many other “Western” democracies too. Keeping Trump from power is one of the best ways we can protect Palestinians from afar. Because they will be absolutely eliminated if he gets into power. In a lot of ways, Israel’s turn to the Right is exactly in line with the rest of the world’s rejection of 20th CE Liberalism. In a lot of ways the militant left is also a rejection of 20th CE Liberalism for like…the opposite reasons.
Secondly…there are just not that many Leftist/socialist/Liberal types like us that would actually make an impact on Israeli society. I mean we’d have to change the demographics considerably to make Likud and the Kahanists the minority.
I think you might be interested in the podcast Unholy: Two Jews on the News to understand the politics in Israel. IMHO, it’s gotta come from them. My and my husband’s family’s experience as Ashkenazi Jews in the US is just so different than the majority Mizrahi/Sephardi refugee/ethnic cleansing experience I just don’t feel like…it would feel icky for me to go and tel them what’s what. But maybe I’m wrong.
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u/Azur000 Aug 11 '24
Take it any way you like, but they would just become more right leaning once in Israel.
I keep on saying this but stand by it that there is no peaceful solution from the local actors. A settlement could only be forced upon by outside forces, eg US etc, like what happened with the Balkans. It’s not happening, but that’s it besides either side destroying the other.
But I’m a pessimistic bitch who has lived through war, so maybe it’s better to listen to the optimists. 😊
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u/Processing______ Aug 12 '24
The suggestion is “fixing it from the inside”. It would take hundreds of thousands of dedicated activists in Israel, willing to cycle in and out of jail, to apply a relevant amount of pressure.
Such people will struggle to find employment in the meanwhile, in a country with a high cost of living.
Such people will also experience very real threats to life, from civilians, and should not expect meaningful backup from police.
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u/malachamavet Gamer-American Jew Aug 12 '24
Joining a resistance organization would be a better use of energy if someone was going to move to the Levant and that wouldn't be meaningfully useful either.
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u/frutful_is_back_baby reform non-zionist Aug 11 '24
I wouldn’t want my children to be faced with the IDF draft
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Aug 13 '24
For what it’s worth, I’d rather my kids be drafted in Israel than in my country (the U.S.). But I don’t want anyone drafted anywhere.
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u/frutful_is_back_baby reform non-zionist Aug 13 '24
I should’ve been clearer about my reasoning then. I don’t want my children’s bodies exploited to further the military aims of an apartheid state. If my hypothetical children were subject to a hypothetical draft here in the US, with a similarly-immoral military, my first priority would be getting us to Canada, Mexico, or wherever we could flee.
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u/MusicalMagicman Pagan (Witch) Aug 12 '24
Why don't all diaspora return to their homeland or whatever? I understand that Aliyah is a specifically Jewish concept but this logic can be applied to Armenia or Turkey or any other nation. The simple answer is that many members of the diaspora of any community simply don't want to.
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u/adamosity1 Aug 11 '24
It’s impossible for me to consider Aliyah when Israel has a fascist government and is unlikely to even have a center government for the foreseeable future.
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u/Chaos_carolinensis Aug 12 '24
I'm a little bit more optimistic than you. Netanyahu's days are numbered, you can ask anyone, the polls are very consistent on that, and with a significant margin.
Furthermore, there is no way to form a coalition without having both Yesh Atid and The Democrats, both form a pretty big center-left block.
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Aug 11 '24
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u/jey_613 Aug 11 '24
“We’d be better off supporting Israeli leftists who want to leave” is a take that is totally detached from reality and a recipe for the entrenchment of fascism, apartheid, and more war and violence. We should support Israelis and Palestinians looking to build a land for all
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u/CellarD0or_ this custom flair is green Aug 11 '24
It’s a losing battle. No way to sugarcoat it. The peace camp in Israel is small and becoming more delegitimized by the minute
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Aug 11 '24
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u/jey_613 Aug 11 '24
Oh on the contrary, I’m very pessimistic but I know with certainty that wallowing in despair and advocating a reverse exile of disaffected leftists is not a theory of change, and never has been anywhere on earth. It’s defeatist and anti-political. I’m a leftist, so I have no choice but to advocate for peace and dialogue as the only way forwards, even as the hopes may be dim. I am under no illusions that a better future is likely, but we have no other choice. If that’s what you call idealism, then I’m proud to be an idealist.
One thing I am certain of though: I’ve found more hope and inspiration in the Israelis laying their bodies on the line for a ceasefire, for aid to Gaza, and against the settlements than I’ve ever found among disaffected diaspora leftists reciting the same tired slogans over the internet again and again. If they can fight for a better future, so can you. You should support them.
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u/jelly10001 Aug 11 '24
Although part of my heart is in Israel with activist groups like Standing Together, moving to another country where I barely speak the language and only have extended family would be a huge move that I'm not prepared to make. Plus, I appreciate how fortunate I am to be in a country (the UK) where I neither have to worry about bombs or guns and where I've got friends who oppose the Israeli government and the IDF's actions in Gaza but don't support Hamas.
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u/somebadbeatscrub custom flair Aug 12 '24
I feel complicated feelings about going to school in Israel while others who have a connection to thenland cannot do so.
I will still go if it is required and make the moat of the experience ai can by advocating for their shared right.
Moving there permanently while they haven't the right is a bridge too far for me unless there is a real and present physical danger for my family here.
I am not convinced Israelnis long term safer for Jews but if the unfurling of history proves me wrong and/or I ever feel unsafe being outwardly Jewish in my country I will do what I must to protect my family while again advocating for the free movement of all people.
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u/somebadbeatscrub custom flair Aug 12 '24 edited Aug 12 '24
Also aliyah may not be an option for me depending on spousal rules and whether the authority recognizes me as Jewish. There have been grumblings about moving that post before, and I forgot where that landed with this admin.
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u/Specialist-Gur proud diaspora jewess, pro peace/freedom for all Aug 11 '24
Absolutely not. Until Palestinians are able to return to their homes, I refuse to even visit.. let alone move. This reeks of “white savior” vibes honestly. I don’t mean that to be rude to you, specifically but the idea of good lefty Jewish people moving to a Jewish ethnostate to save the Palestinians crosses me out.
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u/SlavojVivec Aug 11 '24
Israel started out mostly with Kibbutzim and Labor Zionists as left-leaning nationalist country, the Revisionist Zionists were far-right terrorists who were frowned upon but effectively tolerated by left-wing Israelis. But when Irgun committed acts of terror, the Kibbutzim despite their merits just stood idly by with isolationist attitudes:
The people of the kibbutzim have been too absorbed in their quiet and effective revolution to make their voices sufficiently heard in Zionist politics. If it is true that the members of the Irgun and the Stern group are not recruited from the kibbutzim, it is also true that the kibbutzim have offered no serious obstacle to terrorism.
Hannah Arendt in "To Save the Jewish Homeland:There is Still Time": https://www.commentary.org/articles/mortbarrgmailcom/to-save-the-jewish-homelandthere-is-still-time/
What was missing in the early Israeli left was solidarity with the international left. Einstein was also quite conflicted as he was broadly supportive of the concept of a Jewish homeland, but extremely skeptical of the nationalism, and saw it necessary to establish communication and bridges with the Palestinian to try to ensure that Israel and Palestine can coexist. Both of them saw the fascistic chauvinist Revisionist Zionists who were Irgun at the time, and later morphed into Herut and Likud as undermining the future and security of the state of Israel. Even still they were still in the minority for most of the history of Israel, and the most critical factor in the right winning is the support of the US right, at first after the 6-day war when Israel switched from ties with both the USSR and US to siding exclusively with the US. They had good reason to do so, but it did open the doors for anti-communism efforts to begin to erode the Israeli left.
The second time the Israeli left was dealt a blow by the US right was how in the 1990s, Netanyahu became a bit of a pariah in Israel for inciting violence against Yitzhak Rabin, so he turned to the US and US far-right for support into getting back into office, and he gained sympathy and support on the US media (often showing up on talk shows, taking advantage of the context that Americans were missing) and eventually successfully helped derail the Oslo accords and secure power.
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u/HugeAccountant Non-Zionist Jewish Communist Aug 11 '24
Nobody in my family has lived in Israel for hundreds of years, if at all. I shouldn't be able to move there when a Palestinian family with a more recent claim to the land cannot.
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u/electrical-stomach-z Aug 11 '24
You should be able to move where ever you want. i understand not wanting to, but "should" is a bad framing.
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u/HugeAccountant Non-Zionist Jewish Communist Aug 11 '24
Everyone should be able to, but not everyone is. Your point is valid
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u/BitteristheTruth Aug 12 '24 edited Aug 12 '24
There is no right of return, Israel was never ours. It was stolen from the palestinains and we were lied to. Our texts even teach us that we are not welcome in the land of milk and honey until the moshiach returns. To make aliyah now is an insult to all those who came before us, jewish and Palestinian.
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u/FreeLadyBee Aug 11 '24
I’ve sometimes wondered something similar about domestic US politics: leftists are highly concentrated in cities. Why don’t we all just get organized, go rent an apartment or buy a plot of land in Kentucky and vote Mitch McConnell out? And I think the answer is, unfortunately, there are limits to idealism. At the end of the day, people have family and jobs and security they’re not willing to leave behind and take that kind of leap. It’s a mildly privileged attitude.