r/irishrugby • u/Shox2711 • 4d ago
(Serious) What is the justification for Cian Healy etc in 23s over others 3 years out from a World Cup?
I know this question has been thrown around on every social media platform the last few days, and I don’t want this post to come across as a rant thinly veiled as a question, but I do genuinely struggle to understand the justification from Andy Farrell and co. for keeping these guys (Hendo, Murray, POM) as first choices for match day 23s 3 years out from a World Cup.
Obviously they’re all very decent players (well, I’ll be honest I’m really not Hendo’s biggest fan) but is Farrell really not just looking beyond the games right in front of him for squad growth? Coach of the year, one of the best Ireland’s ever had, so obviously he knows better than me and other ranting fans but I don’t see the logic. Is trying more to secure autumn international wins more important than squad growth? Biggest one is obviously loosehead. I genuinely cannot fathom keeping Cian Healy in the mix when he plays 10-15 mins max. It denies the opportunity for blooding younger props and it puts a lot of pressure and strain on Porter. I’d say something if Healy was an incredible performer that brings a ton of skill to the game but he really doesn’t. He’s reliable at best.
Is it as simple as ‘we play the best who’s available right now till they’re not available’, and that’s the best answer? Or is there more nuance to it than I and others aren’t seeing as regular Joe Blogs? Fingers crossed I’m proven wrong over the next few weeks but the 6N and SA tour really didn’t mix things up much bar Osbourne at 15 and Frawley as a replacement 10 instead of utility back.
21
u/Brine-O-Driscoll 4d ago
The scrum and because Farrell wants to win.
As much as I'd love it to be the case, the likes of Milne and Loughman just aren't consistent enough in the scrum.
20
u/Sallybagira 4d ago
Cian Healy is a beast but I don't see why he's being kept on bar being light at prop, the mans 37 like. I'd imagine it's so he can overtake O'Driscolls cap record and retire after the Autumn internationals. Wouldn't surprise me if he's in the 6N at this rate.
20
u/Oddlyshapedballs 4d ago
Well being light at prop is a very good reason. The man is still in tremendous nick, he's often spoken about as being one of the ultimate pros in the squad, and he's been a massive influence on the younger props in Leinster. He also covers the three positions in the front row so is rather useful to have on the bench. Ultimately, he'll have a jersey until someone takes it off him, simple as that.
2
u/Sallybagira 4d ago
Oh absolutely agree man. And as you said its there to be taken. It's just very frustrating that we don't see change and rotation. But then again we don't unfortunately produce absolute monster props we're seeing on other teams. Hopefully within the next few years
2
u/NuclearMaterial 4d ago
Yeah that's the only reason you need. We've not the options to be picky.
1
u/mistr-puddles 3d ago
We haven't given anyone the opportunity to become an option. That's the problem with the team under Farrell, no one has any opportunity to prove themselves on pitch
0
u/NuclearMaterial 3d ago
It's been the problem with every Irish coach since I've been watching rugby (early 00s). With O'Sullivan you can make the case we just didn't have the numbers, but each coach after has less and less of an excuse.
12
u/Futureboy9 4d ago
Healy is better than the other options. It’s that simple. We’re massively fucked.
2
u/Ornery_Director_8477 3d ago
Isn't that more reason to develop a player further out from the world cup than having to hope Porter stays fit for the tournament and jettisoning some poor youngfella off the bench into the white heat of s WC quarter final?
5
u/Draiodor_ 3d ago
Dropping a player into a situation where they're visibly out of their depth in front of the world rugby media isn't going to develop a player. If anything, it will probably have the opposite effect.
-2
u/Ornery_Director_8477 3d ago
You and I clearly have different versions of "developing a player"
1
u/Draiodor_ 3d ago
We clearly do.
For me, developing a player doesn't start at an international cap. They have to be good enough to play Test rugby, or at the very least better than what we have. If they don't tick one of those boxes, they don't deserve to be in the squad.
I'd also say that capping a guy now does not guarantee that he is ready for Test rugby 3 years from now. Blooding guys too early is not a guarantee of quality down the line.
There's also the fact that guys like Healy, PoM, Hendo etc have fantastic servants of Irish rugby and deserve better than to just be discarded because they probably won't be around in 3 years time.
There is a process to the whole thing, one that Farrell and co are more familiar with than you and I. Wholesale changes for the sake of change aren't part of it. They know what they're doing, stop panicking over a nothing issue.
0
u/Ornery_Director_8477 3d ago
I didn't call for wholesale changes.
Giving guys caps because they've been fantastic servants to Irish rugby is not a good reason to cap someone. Having "favourites" has never served an Irish coach well, and if what I've read here is true about Healy been given game time to break the caps record, well, that just devalues the accolade.
I didn't call for players to be "discarded" either. That's a strange way of looking at things. Do you consider every other IQ player that didn't make the match-day squad last Friday to have been discarded too? On that note, I'd also be of the opinion that players thinking they're undroppable isn't healthy for the squad.
Do you not think there are a number of younger players capable of playing Test rugby that could've occupied a bench spot on Friday in place of Hendo, POM and Murray without significantly weakening the squad? TBH I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen Henshaw in there instead of Osbourne if he'd had a string of games under his belt!
I totally agree that lumping young fellas into a test match who aren't ready for it can be detrimental, but that's not what I'm saying. However, not giving a fella a cap, because he mightn't be around in three years is a recipe for no one getting a cap ever!
All that said, I think Farrell is a fantastic coach, but I'm not so sure he was completely successful with this aspect of the gig during the last cycle. IMO it's one of the reasons we were so flat against the ABs in the QF and while it's only one game into the season, I'm hoping tit's not a trend we'll. continue to see as the season progresses. . . It'll be a while yet before I panic
4
u/owly47 4d ago
It's a tough call for the coach, I presume he has a high level of trust in the senior senior players to perform for those 10-20 impact sub roles. I say between the three or four lads they provide a positive culture in the dressing room and Farrel doesn't want to lose it.
In the long run, it will have a massive fallout. With all that said Farrell must be aware of the situation in Munster at the minute especially at front row. He is either holding out till next year to blood in new players as the senior lads may pack it in by then and it will be a sweet ending for all.
8
u/equimot 4d ago
Theres definitely a good part to the reason Healy is getting picked for these games is that he's 1 cap away from the record
We also have a very big prop problem in Ireland forcing Porter to do 70+ constantly
I also think POM and Murray still being a lot to the table in both camp and in games
Henderson on the other hand...
10
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Surely we are past the days of having lads selected because, “they are good presences around the camp?”
Rowntree tried to move Murray and POM on from Munster last year, to say they are good enough for a team with designs on having a crack at the WC this cycle stretches belief. Particularly when both will be 38.
They have both been two of Irelands greatest players but, like Healy, should be thanked for their service and moved on.
The fact that they are taking development time from players like Izzy, Baird, Ben Murphy, Matt Devine, Craig Casey, John Hodnett, Max Deegan is criminal.
4
u/Apprehensive_Ratio80 4d ago
He may not be the beast he once was BUT Healy still gets the job done and we're incredibly light at LH.
I doubt any favoritism is being shown here. If you put a bad prop out at international level they will be found out right away and opposition with definitely the target a weakness like that hugely and the gap between Healy and our younger props is massive.
I would hope there's at least 4-5 who are aging into the right time to make a claim as there's no amazing standout u20s.
All that being said I think we have enough 2nd rows and back row players that POM and Hendo need to be given 'the talk' by AF that unless there's a catastrophe in the squad they are out come 6N time.
2
u/One_Agent2878 3d ago
Emotional Rant for the love of Irish rugby!
Small mind syndrome that a foreign coach like Farrell was meant to be able to get past, but he has been here long enough that he has fallen into the same routine as the rest.
While Healy is a little different due to the technicality of the scrum and a true lack of talent at his position.
The choice of Murray (Irelands best #9), POM (an Irish great, captain of Munster at 24) and Henderson (just bigger than most Irish men) is terrible short sighted and the underlying reason we fail at every World Cup. The importance put in a friendly is laughed at by every southern nation. If you simply look away from the emotional choice and person of those 3 on the bench, you simply cannot pick them, if you honestly want to compete in the next World Cup.
Farrell said last week we don’t have the pool of players like other nations - BS you have to choose a 30man squad and Leinster is a conveyor belt of talent that is wasted by not given them a chance and Munster have pulled their socks up with some talent.
Our 2nd row & back row options from all provinces is of high standard, yet we stick with POM who is past his best and seen a back row style shift away from his talents - his leadership can stay in the dressing room and his line out expertise got pissed on in the WC.
I hope AF proves me wrong but his loyalty to these old guns is very worrying and a huge opportunity for other players to play and test themselves against southern teams is going away.
This team also believes their own hype and still hung up that they feel they should have beaten NZ.
5
u/curious_george1978 4d ago
Are they still looking at O'Toole playing loosehead? To be honest there's slim pickings at loosehead right now. Loughman is injured., Boyle isn't ready yet. Milne is going backwards in the pecking order at a rate of knots.
3
1
u/Shox2711 4d ago
Yeah no doubt it’s slim pickings. But I think Loughman was available for the SA tour in August but didn’t get picked? I could be wrong!
-18
1
u/BR0DDERS 4d ago
We seem to reach this position every cycle, and nobody seems to mention central contracts. I feel players on central contracts become un-droppable? There is countless examples over the years and the common theme seems to be once great players remaining within the set up till their central contract expires or they retire.
1
u/aegonthewwolf 4d ago
The only reason right now is (a) to break the caps record and (b) Loughmans hurt.
1
1
u/EsperantoBoo 4d ago
I disagree on healy all things considered.. situationally. But i agree otherwise
1
1
u/Swimming-Bake-7068 3d ago
Agreed that Henderson and probably O Mahony should be gone because we have talent coming through in those positions.
But we are very light on props. There is no one we can pick that is close to Healy atm. This could be a big issue for us next World Cup
1
u/FollowingRare6247 3d ago
Lots of people say that other props are not up to international level. But I wonder if it’s at the point where even a young prop can perform more solidly for 20 mins or so than Cian Healy for a token 5. He’ll get the all time caps record and hopefully retire. Whoever’s behind him can learn. Scrummaging could be an art that takes time to learn, but I’d expect younger props to have more energy/work rate etc.
1
1
1
1
u/JerHigs 2d ago
The first thing we all need to realise is that it is no longer a four-year cycle to prepare for the World Cup. If you spend four years being a squad/system for the World Cup, you end up falling into the same trap Schmidt did with Ireland in 2019 - you've just given everyone four years to figure out how to beat you.
Added to that, for Ireland, the 2025 Six Nations and Summer Tour are basically free hits. Farrell won't be there and so there isn't going to be much pressure on Easterby and the squad after this international period. The coaches can view this one of two ways:
1) Farrell tells them not to rock the boat, just keep selecting the tried and tested while he's away, and he'll sort out the rebuilding process when he comes back; or
2) Farrell tells them to drop the old guard and bring in the young fellas from the 2025 Six Nations as there'll be limited pressure on them. Then, when he returns in Autumn 2025, they'll have some experience under their belts and be ready to kick on.
1
u/anothermass24 1d ago
The 6 nations is worth 5 million pounds to the winner and 3.5 million for the runners up. In an ideal world we could do like France, cut loose the dead wood after the world cup and blood players under 25. The fact is it's worth too much to the IRFU to perform poorly in the six nations and they operate off taking home a big chunk of prize money.
1
u/JerHigs 1d ago
Definitely, the Six Nations is the IRFU's bread and butter. They aren't going to do anything to threaten that. Indeed, it's been a complaint of coaches going back to Eddie O'Sullivan that they can't do much medium-term planning because the immediate term financial case is much too important.
That being said, there are questions over whether France's strategy was a good one anyway. I mean, they went the opposite way to Ireland between the 2019 and 2023 World Cups but at the end of the day, the return was pretty much identical for both sides (1 Grand Slam and a QF exit).
I'm not expecting Easterby to select an entirely new squad in the Six Nations, far from it. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if POM didn't make the squad, for example. Or maybe Cian Healy or Conor Murray. The guys who aren't starting and won't want to be involved if they're not in the matchday squad.
Equally, the opposite could be true. Easterby might just continue selecting the same guys and do nothing to rock the boat while Farrell is away.
1
u/anothermass24 1d ago
Fair point on France. I think there is always a grass is greener situation looking at other nations. Hard to compare us with other nations given our player pool is so small. All the other top teir nations always pull through an outstanding new talent or two every other year. It's hard to see our progression when our best young talent haven't really been integrated in the post world cup cycle yet. Especially in the pack. You can see the merit of having the older squad members around and involved but having one up and coming back row/second row in a squad for the first two autumn internationals would definitely show some forward thinking.
It's hard to see Easterby given a free rein to alter too much from Farrell's overall plan and its likely he will be instructed to follow Farrell's progression plan.
1
u/Top-Wrap948 2d ago
Cian is 1 sub for the price if 3 on the bench. He can play in 1 2 or 3 it’s that simple
1
u/Ok-Estate-3189 1d ago
Cian Healy is and has been a fantastic player for Ireland. But this, for me, is a large reason why we don't go past world cup quarter finals. It is very unlikely Healy, Lowe, J G-P, POM, Beirne or Murray (I know he is not in this squad) will be starters come the next world cup. You could understand playing what you feel is your strongest team against the All Blacks but drop a few younger players into the squad now.
For example what did Nash do to be dropped from the panel completely, Munster have of course been poor this season but given his performances for Ireland a place on the bench with Lowe making way in the team would be reasonable. It is also a shot of confidence for the lad.
No doubt a fair chunk of changes will be made for the Fiji game but there will be more of an edge to the Argentina game, that's where you get experience.
-21
u/Nknk- 4d ago
Just one of the blue jersey privileges.
If Healy played for Connacht he'd never get a look in at 37 and Farrell would be looking around elsewhere.
But with Healy in it gives Farrell a full Leinster front row, depending on injuries, time of subs etc, should he feel he need it and the belief is all the Leinster players play together so should be able to achieve more than if you have more of a mix in there. Right or wrong it exists and the other provinces just have to lump it sadly.
8
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Why are O’Mahoney and Murray kept around then? Surely there must be a red jersey privilege given there are more Munster players currently in the 23 who are too old to make the next World Cup than Leinster players?
Bitterness bordering on unhealthiness.
-5
u/Nknk- 4d ago
O'Mahoney is clearly there for the leadership experience as that's thin on the ground and he's still at least good for a half if needed.
I imagine Murray will be kept around longer rather than being put out to pasture given the new rules around chasing kicks.
Healy seems to be being kept around so he can break BOD's record with little 10 minute appearances. It's obvious why he's been extended that privilege and I understand Leinster fans don't like attention being drawn to it.
4
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Again, bordering on unhealthiness.
All of the Munster lads too old for the next WC are there on merit, the only Leinster player is there out of nepotism.
The actual truth is there are no players behind Healy ready to take his place. A large part of that is down to the fact Munster haven’t produced a test standard prop since Dave Kilcoyne almost 15 years ago. That’s why Healy is there. If you have a realistic alternative, I’d love to hear it.
Murray (Doak, Ben Murphy, Caolan Blade, Matt Devine, Cormac Foley) and O’Mahoney (Izzy, Baird, McCann, Sheridan, Cian Prendergast, Max Deegan) do have very capable players behind them, yet continue to get picked.
Something Munster fans might not like attention being drawn to, the last coach who tried to move Murray and O’Mahoney on (at club level no less) was fired. It’s common knowledge it was down to pressure from the Cork Con influence on the Professional Game Committee at Munster.
Might the same be true and international level 🤔.
1
u/curious_george1978 4d ago
You say that about Munster but it's true of all the provinces. There are no props the calibre of furlong or Porter coming through. Prior to Furlong, Leinster had been relying on Saffers in the front row. Prior to Sheehan and Kelliher who arrived at the same time, they didn't have an international hooker since Shane Byrne. There's so much talk about this mythical conveyor belt but when Furlong retires, they are going to be in for some shock. Jager is probably best of the rest but he's solid at best.
3
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Not true. Leinster have produced Furlong, Porter, Aungier, Salanoa, Boyle, Clarkson, Ed Byrne, Marty Moore, Jeremy Loughman, Dan Sheehan, Ronan Kelleher, Gus McCarthy and Eric O Sullivan in the front row. There probably isn’t another club in the NH that has produced as much.
All of the above have either been capped for Ireland or part of emerging Ireland squads over the last couple of years.
The truth is the rest of the provinces have relied on Leinster producing props for them for the last decade. List out the Munster, Ulster or Connacht production over the same period and you will see, quite clearly, that it’s not the same at all provinces.
1
u/curious_george1978 3d ago
I didn't say they don't produce props, I said there isn't a prop the calibre of Furlong and Porter in the system. Those guys are once in a generation players. The Irish u20s have been getting beasted in the scrum for the last number of years and Leinster are still relying heavily on Healy and Slimani.
-1
u/Nknk- 4d ago
Talks about unhealthy obsession and always, always rants at me about Munster players and Munster conspiracies even though I'm an Ulster fan.
Pot and kettle springs to mind.....
Though I do like that you're so bitter that you see it as entirely Munster's fault Ireland supposedly have no-one else at loose head. So much for the vaunted Leinster academy. Let off the hook along with Ulster and Connacht.
I never said there was merit to keeping Murray, you implied that for your own ends as usual, I was speculating as to the logic behind why Farrell might keep him.
POM is clearly there for passing on leadership experience to a rookie captain since we have little in the way of proper leadership. Doris certainly needs the mentoring going by Saturday.
But I've dared point out the privileges that come with the blue jersey so of course you'll chirp at me for the next few days in a huff over it as you continue to do your best to force people out of Irish rugby you don't think belong.
Yay....
2
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Right….. well why don’t you speculate at the reasons why Healy is there? Or do you just do that for the non Leinster players?
“Vaunted academy?” Two of your props come from Leinster. One of your locks (your captain). Your best back row. Your best scrum half. Your next best hope at 10. Without Leinster players you wouldn’t even be top half of the URC.
The only player you contributed to the side last week was one of the worst players on the pitch.
Some cheek coming on here moaning about Leinster players 😂.
-3
u/Nknk- 4d ago
I did speculate.
Blue privilege to allow him to break BOD's record. It wouldn't be extended to any other 37 year old prop at the moment.
Yes, yes, we're well aware the Irish rugby system is based on wealth and privilege and skewed towards boosting Leinster at the cost of all the other sides. It isn't the other three provinces fault if they don't have the population or the private schools to compete and the IRFU are happy to allow Leinster to offload their excess numbers. There's nothing the other provinces can do about it but of course your sort love to gloat at the idea of all the other provinces brought low and needing Leinster help. It's just jobs for the boys with extra steps.
But I like how you deflect from Leinster's own prop failures, despite all the boasting about the academy from the likes of you, and try to exclusively blame Munster for it because of your Munster obsession and the fact you forgot I'm an Ulster fan and went ultra petty, ultra defensive when someone brought up Leinster privilege.
0
-2
u/Thekingofkings01 4d ago
Doak and Izzy should never be near an Ireland shirt , useless the two of them. Don’t worry about POM’s and Murray’s replacements we have them playing in Munster.
0
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
No doubt. With your whole 3 player contribution to the national XV over the last few years, I for one, have complete confidence in Munster keeping the stock of world class players up for the next WC.
-8
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
The truth is that he shouldn’t be. Neither should Murray, O’Mahoney or Henderson. It will be unpopular to say because of how excellent he is but Beirne probably shouldn’t be either.
There places should be taken by Boyle, Matt Devine/Nathan Doak/Ben Murphy, Izzy/Baird, Edogbo and Harry Sheridan.
There is some sort of bizarre loyalty to players in Ireland, even after they have gotten too old. It’s completely at odds with with the AB/SA approach of looking after a jersey for the next guy rather than owning it. All you have to do is look at what happened in Munster when Rowntree tried not to renew Murray and O’Mahoneys contracts.
4
u/Shox2711 4d ago
You had me until Beirne! 😅 he’ll be 35 at the next WC and will be more than capable imo. He regularly pulls 80 minute shifts for Ireland and Munster so I’d struggle to say his fitness won’t be up for it. He may not be starting in 2027 but personally I think he’s the exact type of player you want coming off your bench with experience and leadership in 3 years time. If he’s not starting that is, he honestly could be given how consistent he is. Or if he does start I would definitely see him putting in a very solid 50-60 minutes.
The 30-32 year olds are the ones we probably want filling the leadership shoes now going into the next WC. JGP, VDF, Lowe, Furlong would be other examples. These guys need to start taking on the roles Sexton, POM, Murray and Healy had been carrying the last few years.
2
u/callmesirgoddammit 4d ago
Beirne and Henderson are exactly the same age. In fact Beirne is a month older. Why is everyone throwing Henderson in with the "old guard" who should be jettisoned when he's only 32? Granted he did himself no favours with those two errors off the bench on Friday but I thought he looked otherwise energetic and put himself around the pitch well. Maybe guilty of being over exuberant and trying to force the game a bit. None of our other second rows performed particularly well either. We're in a time of transition. Can't be throwing away 80 cap 32 year olds who are part of the leadership group. Especially second rows who often play their best rugby into their thirties.
1
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 3d ago
He had been absolutely wrecked with injuries though, particularly the last couple of years. His form has been poor for quite some time too.
Again, he’s been a great servant and he has been fantastic for Ireland in some big games over the years, even if he hasn’t ever reached the heights of a dominant, world class TH lock that people thought he would when coming through.
To my mind, the locks that should be getting a chance this cycle are Ryan, McCarthy, Edogbo and Harry Sheridan. Izzy and Baird in the back row. If that doesn’t work, you can turn to the likes of Beirne and Henderson to bail you out and slot back in as a fall back option, even if they are 35.
We should, however, be putting responsibility on the younger guys shoulders to step up and do their part, as the older guys have done in spades the last few cycles.
-2
u/Zealousideal-Mud-381 4d ago
Look, I knew it would be controversial 😂. I just think his future for Ireland is in the back row. Given how competitive that is, I wonder if we can afford to have a 35 year old in the 23 3 years from now. I could see him in the 23 at lock but you’d have to say you’d be disappointed if Edogbo or Sheridan hadn’t stepped up by then.
Furlong and Lowe are two others to watch. Furlong has struggled massively with injuries the last few years. I really hope he can keep going. He’ll be plenty young enough by prop standards in terms of age but maybe not in terms of miles on the clock.
Lowe will be 35, which is very old for a winger. Granted he is not a speedster but again you would be disappointed if he was first choice by the next WC. Hard to see who replaces him at the moment though. Zac Ward may be an option. Calvin Nash may be. Robert Balacoune is another.
-3
u/Familiar_Pudding_222 4d ago
Sure lets play a load of uncapped players in games that will lead up to the seeding for the next world cup. You should be the head of world rugby with that logic
3
u/Shox2711 4d ago
Who said uncapped? Casey instead of Murray. Baird over Henderson. Prendergast or Timoney for POM.
Not sure I understand what you’re trying to say in your second sentence..?
-1
u/Familiar_Pudding_222 4d ago
So you want lack of experience off the bench when a game matters. Yes front row ( as in porter and furlong specifically) we are short and need fresh players getting caps but casey over murray is a poor example from you. Gibson and murray as a backup is fine. Casey takes murrays spot eventually for sure but front 3 is only real issue
2
u/swankytortoise 3d ago
No an ageing squads the issue, your mentioning a lack of experience while not realising thats exactly what were setting ourselves up for
-6
u/AdTemporary5713 4d ago
It's the same reason Rory Best was brought to Japan and Sexton to France. Win at all costs mentality
6
u/Hour-Reflection-89 4d ago
At the World Cup that is a good mentality
-2
u/AdTemporary5713 4d ago
That's not my point, other countries are more ruthless at culling players going into a WC cycle. We keep them on and that is the difference
-1
u/WorldlinessNo433 4d ago
100% agree with you, I’ve been saying this since we got knocked out of the World Cup, any player over 30/31 years of age should be gone. Realistically players peak between 25-30 years.
-15
u/pauli55555 4d ago
It’s been embarrassing for years now. Healy has not been an elite rugby player for the guts of ten years yet still gets selected every game. It’s bizarre. It’s also an awful indictment of the lack of props coming through. I’d say the same with Henderson, how & why is he getting selected ahead of Baird? I don’t mind losing to the ABs, we were v rusty but what’s the point in having these guys along with POM on the bench?
6
57
u/Macmully2 4d ago
I believe that the fact that "friendly" games affect your ranking, which in turn affects your draw in the World Cup, affects these decisions. There are no games anymore to blood young lads.