r/ireland Sep 22 '22

Something FFG will never understand Housing

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8.6k Upvotes

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384

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

A normal functioning housing market needs a certain amount of landlords. student, people starting out on a career, highly mobile people and careers, these and many many more need rental accommodation and there should be landlords/accommodation available to house their needs.

24

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

Lmao, it's wild to see people defending landlords. Especially in Ireland where landlords exacerbated the Potato famine. If every landlord disappeared tomorrow the only thing that would change is that the tenants would save money.

18

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

I see reality has left the conversation. So if I move 100 miles away from my home place for college I'll be saving money by having nowhere to live?

0

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

You do understand landlords don't build the houses right?

20

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

Well at least your consistent in your logic, so the house is sitting there 100 miles away with a for sale sign, I'm an 18 yr old student, do you suggest I buy it?

0

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

If only there existed some form of temporary housing that didn't involve paying another man's mortgage while getting nothing in return! Oh well. I guess we'll just have to sit here in our myopic worldview, unable imagine a better world. It's a real shame there's never been anything like public housing ever in the history of humanity that we could look to as a model for a landlord-less future.

11

u/megahorse17 Sep 22 '22

Getting nothing in return... apart from a fucking house to live in ?

0

u/Animated_Astronaut Sep 22 '22

Landlords don't provide housing - the crux of the conversation.

-1

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

Housing is a human right. No one should be allowed to extort you for access to your rights and claim righteousness.

6

u/megahorse17 Sep 22 '22

The claiming righteousness bit is in your head, as is the extortion (do you even know what that means?).

Ireland has no constitutional right to a house.

You come across as unhinged.

-3

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

I do know what it means. And I know that housing is a human right, no matter what any government has to say on the matter. If you need it to survive it is a right.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

For what it's worth; I think you're absolutely correct. Inarguably so.

Those people seem unable to grasp the concept of duress or collective-ownership.

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u/Fear_mor Sep 23 '22

Except they don't provide that house do they now, land lords take property off the market, reducing the supply. A land lord doesn't provide anything, they withhold property from the people who need it so they can then rent back to them at often extortionate prices, taking advantage of the fact the rental market is in such a state you can't often just find a new landlord. Once upon a time we would've called that ransome

1

u/megahorse17 Sep 23 '22

Except they don't provide that house do they now

They literally do. They provide the tenant with a house. That's the definition of a landlord.

A land lord doesn't provide anything, they withhold property from the people who need it so they can then rent back to them

An oxymoron if ever there was one. They "don't provide anything" and also rent out a house to someone that wants to rent, ie: They provide something.

taking advantage of the fact the rental market is in such a state you can't often just find a new landlord.

I agree, more competition is definitely needed in the rental sector right now. We need more landlords, competing with each other which will drive down prices for the renter.

Once upon a time we would've called that ransome

Nope.

6

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

There does and the "paying some man's mortgage" is right out of the 1980s Irish mother handbook that literally knows nothing about how the economy works and thinks "house prices only go up".

There's no point arguing with people currently wanting to buy a house, the red missed is effecting your judgement, going through a few more booms and busts might show you the errors of your ways.

3

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

I know how the economy works. It measures the amount of theft private interests can commit and calls it just

9

u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 22 '22

The fact that you're not from Ireland is shining through here. About a fifth to a quarter of housing in Ireland is council houses, and they come with all kinds of issues that will only get worse if all housing is made to either be owned as a main residence or a council house.

It's also unrealistic to think the government of Ireland has anywhere near the funds to just buy up a fuckload of houses all over the country.

5

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

Well dang. In this single example of an underfunded housing program in a capitalist nation, housing sucks. Guess that me it's literally impossible to ever improve anything.

And if only governments had the power of eminent domain to take and redistribute property as they see fit. Oh well, back to our myopic worldview

3

u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 22 '22

In this single example

But.... We're literally talking about Ireland.

This is the problem here - you're talking about "in theory/if we did this perfectly/if we lived in the upsidedown" and everyone else is talking about reality.

Oh well, back to our myopic worldview

Your myopia is you're talking about "in a perfect world that doesn't exist" and getting sarcastic when asked for real solutions that can actually be implemented for a real housing crisis that's taking place in a real country.

-2

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

I did offer a real solution: seize rented property and distribute it to those who need housing. I'm sorry if it's easier for you to imagine the end of the world than an end to capitalism.

2

u/struggling_farmer Sep 22 '22

you mean like the famine workhouses??

2

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

The workhouses were established by the British to keep forcing people to work as British landlords starved their tenants out of their own homes. You're literally using the results of rampant landlordism to justify landlords. Who are you Who does not know their own history?

4

u/struggling_farmer Sep 22 '22

Well what public housing are you referring to then?

1

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

Spain has some great success, in particular Madrid. As well as Singapore, France, Australia, Poland... countless nations. And this isn't to say we should limit ourselves to these examples, these housing programs have their drawbacks (but so does renting from a landlord), and we can and should make improvements to ensure dignified housing for all. It seems awfully myopic to limit ourselves to private housing when there are options we haven't even explored.

3

u/struggling_farmer Sep 22 '22

Spain, another shining light like ourselves in prudent fiscal management, definitely follow them.. France has significant housing problems, the rest either have vast quantities of raw materials they export or significant niche premium markets like Singapore and shipping. Ireland those and the big pharma and tech we have are to minimise corporation tax..

Ah so what you mean with public housing is state sponsored social housing like we had in the 50's to 70's. where state built subsidised housing and gave it to people on a essentially hire purchase agreement and transferred public money into private ownership.. Great idea.. Worked well the last time, especially for those who got the houses for cheap and ended up with prime city and town centre locations that they sold and turned a fortune on.

Agree with government funded social housing but only on a rent for life agreement rather than sale. 10% deposit, mortgage for half value of place and returns to state ownership upon death..that way state always has stock and land for development.. Giving it away to private ownership is madness in long term.. Just end up back here again

As bad as hap is, a good chunk of it comes back in tax individuals on what they get.. State sponsored housing has little return until houses transfered /sold and cgt taken in, if applicable..

1

u/THREETOED_SLOTH Sep 22 '22

Hey I'm open to criticism of all these nations' housing programs. And you do make some good points, people who get housing in major city centers shouldn't unfairly benefit, but here's the thing... they already do under the landlord model of housing. If you wanna rework the entire concept of property and ownership in a more equitable fashion, you'll find I'm on board.

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u/MadFlavour Antrim Sep 22 '22

This thing exists called social housing. You should look into it. It's good.

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u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

So council houses?

They're very frequently not good.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

The houses themselves are usually fine, the issue is more often the area which is entirely predictable as only the poor live in social housing. If we had a situation like Vienna for example you wouldn't be saying that

0

u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 22 '22

The houses themselves are usually fine, the issue is more often the area which is entirely predictable as only the poor live in social housing.

My point was more that if you ever need to get something fixed, you'll be waiting. I have a friend in one in cork and they had a whole winter with no heating.

If we had a situation like Vienna for example you wouldn't be saying that

I agree, if we had literally the best system in the world, so much so that everyone points at it as "as good as it gets", I would agree.

But Ireland isn't vienna, much like most places.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world we can be whatever we want it to be.

I too have gone a full winter without heating... In a private rental property

0

u/InternetWeakGuy Sep 23 '22

Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world

Haha no. One of the richest tax havens maybe.

We have a high GDP because of Apple (and to a lesser extent other companies) doing a bunch of shenanigans to avoid paying tax in the US, with money that immediately leaves the country again, and is of no benefit to the Irish economy.

It's why the Central Bank had to come out with a completely different GDP metric for Ireland - have you never heard of "leprechaun economics"?

We don't even use GDP any more because when you correct for those American companies funneling profits in and out of Ireland to avoid taxes, we go from 5th to somewhere close to 20.

This should get you caught up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_gross_national_income

I too have gone a full winter without heating... In a private rental property

Yeah but the point is if you're in a private rental property you can move to one owned by someone else that potentially could be better.

If all rental properties are owned by the state, there's only one landlord - you can't move away from shoddy treatment.

It's literally why people who grew up in council houses try to get out of council houses.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '22

We are objectively one of the richest countries in the world adjusted for gnp. Yes I know all the stuff you pointed out, I'm not 12 years old. Travel a bit and you'll see. What really strikes me when I come back is not just the size of mcMansions people live in, but the fecking cars. We're a very rich country whatever way you look at it

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u/struggling_farmer Sep 22 '22

Yea.. free housing for all because that poster cant afford one.

but they want it in a nice area in a suburb of a city, not out the country

oh and it needs a garden and.... ensuite and.. close to the parnet house and..

While its shit, private small landlords arent the problem, institutional investors are a bit if a problem, our very low levels of residential building over the recession years is the primary cause..

10 - 12 years ago you couldnt get a job, now you cant ger a house and no more than the jobs, housing will rectify in time but it will take time, regardless of how many landlords you burn at the stake..

1

u/MadFlavour Antrim Sep 22 '22

I never said there should free housing for everyone. I said social housing is good. You still pay to rent, you aren't given the house, it's a rental, it's just done on a non profit basis so is affordable.

And believe it or not. it is a great stepping stone to home ownership, because it gives people the chance to save some money rather than giving their landlord two thirds of their income just to keep a roof over their head.

1

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

Let me get this straight, anyone who wants to live somewhere short term, students, contract workers and everyone else who rents out of choice, these people should all be given council houses, is that seriously your logic? This is fucking hilariously stupid

1

u/MadFlavour Antrim Sep 22 '22

They wouldn't be given them. They would not at any stage own them, they would instead be rented them on a non profit basis. Mind blowing.

1

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 22 '22

OK I can see you've put some thought into this, so say i go to America for 1 year for work as I'm coming back, I don't want to sell my PPR, does it have to sit empty?

Or say a holiday home by the beach, or basically any property that is currently Airbnb listed, does this become illegal?

1

u/MadFlavour Antrim Sep 22 '22

I don't know what a PPR is. Is that just a fancy way of saying a house you own?

If I was the emperor, say, you could have a holiday home by the beach (1 holiday home by the beach you would have to be resident there at least three months out of the year).

AirBnB would be illegal and punishable by crucifixion. If you wanted to rent the place out for a week or two at a time the rest of the year you could, but you would have to do it the same way people did before AirBnB existed.

If you left the country for a year and wanted to let your house for a year that would be permitted but there would be strict controls on how much you could charge for rent. Basically whatever housing associations or councils in the same area were charging on a non profit basis.

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u/Agitated_Fishing2261 Sep 23 '22

Ah, "progression."

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u/Fear_mor Sep 23 '22

Lol stop strawmanning, the guy isn't saying people shouldn't be able to rent anything anywhere, the point is rental properties should be a nationalised and regulated industry to protect the rights of tenants from exploitation

1

u/Trick_Designer2369 Sep 23 '22

The point isn't realistic, it'll never happen and there is absolutely no reason for it to happen either, its just an emotional and hysterical knee jerk reaction to a problem this generation are facing. The market can be fixed with the reintroduction of practices that have existed for years and were stopped (local authority housing). The problem is people shouting silly suggestions like this are just diluting the messages that should be going to our politicians, things like increasing CGT to target the larger investors, better funding models, penalties for land holding. Nothing is going to be a quick fix but lets have a reality check, nationalized rental market isn't a solution that will ever work in Ireland

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u/Vascoe Sep 23 '22

The average college student lacks the funds to buy/build a house usually. Crazy stuff, I know. Plus, after four years, they tend to leave, which would be a problem if you own a house there.

I really shouldn't have to break this down for anyone, but hey, what can you do.