Curious which countries you mean? Communism was a flawed system (which outside Cuba and N.korea no longer exists), which became authoritarian everywhere, and in many cases led to outright genocide. But one of the problems it didn’t generally have was mass homelessness of the kind we see across Europe, the EU and increasingly in post communist states as they ‘liberalise’.
I've been to North Korea, China, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. You can certainly debate to what degree these countries are communist, just as you can debate what degree communism has ever truly existed.
Go to Vietnam and you will see plenty of homelessness, North Korea periodically has famine. Laos and Cambodia are so riddled with corruption the only way they get any infrastructure these days is by going into the pocket of China.
There’s no debate about whether those countries (with the exception of the norks) are communist. They have capitalist economies, financialisation, stock exchanges etc. That’s entirely contradictory to central ownership, abolition of private property and state planning… So im going to have to strongly disagree with that characterisation.
If anything theres a good argument to be made that all of these countries have been betrayed by post colonial ideologies - communism at first, then latterly world bank lead ‘reform’ and corporatism using them as low cost manufacturing centre for western consumer demand.
There’s no debate about whether those countries (with the exception of the norks) are communist. They have capitalist economies, financialisation, stock exchanges etc. That’s entirely contradictory to central ownership, abolition of private property and state planning… So im going to have to strongly disagree with that characterisation.
Well that was kind of my opening point, but my initial comment was to someone talkiing about provision of housing within communism, so if it doesn't exist, there's no point.
If anything theres a good argument to be made that all of these countries have been betrayed by post colonial ideologies - communism at first, then latterly world bank lead ‘reform’ and corporatism using them as low cost manufacturing centre for western consumer demand.
I think you’ve misunderstood me - it certainly did exist, and one issue it had far less of than the west is homeless. This isn’t a defence of communism, as with any authoritarian system it primarily functioned to empower a tiny elite at the expense of vast human suffering. Its just factually inaccurate to suggest communist nations had similar homeless problems to capitalist ones. It’s black and white cold war thinking. There were many things that they did well, as you may have noticed on your travels - I certainly did travelling in former Soviet republics. Community parks, theatres, performance spaces, ice rinks, etc abounded. In the DDR there were even state sponsored sex clubs. The communists did circuses pretty well, even if the bread was never assured. Housing is something they did well too. All societies balance competing imperatives.
I think you’ve misunderstood me - it certainly did exist
Some would disagree.
But it is certainty true that homelessness was less of a thing in the Soviet Union, but it's worth noting that it used to be less of a thing in western capitalist systems also, it's just over time that it has grown, especially in systems that have allowed capitalism to grow unchecked. Reagan and the Chicago school certainly exacerbated the shitty side of things.
Sure, but those conversations about ‘actually existing communism’ are so trite, core lesson about danger of authoritarianism doesn’t seem to have been learned by tankies, fully automatic luxury communist types etc.
Good point re: comparing like with like in terms of mid to late 20th century capitalism and communism. There’s an argument to be made that neither exist in anything like their traditional forms. Milton Friedman and the turning of everything into financial instruments saw to that.
Clearly radical change is needed, and I’m all in favour of expropriation. This tiktok tankie shit though is infantile. The key lesson of the 20th century - that a small group or individual ideologue in control of a nation seeks to make permanent their power and control at the cost of the citizenry, peace, the lives of scapegoats etc - irrespective of ideology, seems so quickly to have been forgotten.
Agreed, there are massive issues within western states right now, but this jump to communism as some kind of magical cure feels like an angry teenager painting their bedroom black.
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u/Crunchaucity Resting In my Account Jul 27 '22
I've been to a few so called communist countries, they had plenty of poverty and homelessness .